Any Giraud Annealer folks here?

[TheGerman]

Having an issue setting it up. I watch youtube videos and basically everyone is doing something different, and their brass all looks different. No idea whos right/wrong or what anymore.

The best brass I saw which had an even golden anneal past the shoulder was actually a PrimalRights video but hes using a BenchSource. I haven't found that with any videos on the Giraud, and the Giraud instructions basically say put 750 Tempilaq in it and get it to the point where it melts it and thats it. When I do that, I don't get the nice annealed color/pattern like you see on 5.56 brass from the factory. Is it even supposed to do that?

Anyone have any gas and timer settings they use on the Giraud I can try and base a trial/error off of? Anyone know of an actual video for the Giraud thats correct and the brass looks the way its supposed to?

 

[308pirate]

If I were you I'd sell it and replace it with either an induction or a salt bath annealer. Either one is superior to a torch annealer from a process control aspect.

That is just my professional (engineer) opinion

 

[pmclaine]

If I were you I'd sell it and replace it with either an induction or a salt bath annealer. Either one is superior to a torch annealer from a process control aspect.

That is just my professional (engineer) opinion

That's a shit response to a sensitive Teuton.

Mans excited about his new gear and wants it to work. He's not the type to quit because you point out an alternative.

I want his Giraud to work also.

When it comes to the annealing process the Giraud appeals most to me because who wants to handle every fucking piece of brass after handling every fucking piece of brass in other operations such as chamfer/debur.

I'm thinking my man is responding to Army Jerry and rather than buying more ammo he is reloading a shit ton and doesn't have time to poke a single piece of brass through a hole reminiscent of the first time he finger banged a chick in grade school.

Lots of good vids on mods to the Giraud for best results - 20 pound tanks, two flame heads, a more controllable feed speed - things Giraud should make standard.

Hoping this works, video your efforts so I can figure it out if I ever buy an annealer.

Details please on that first finger bang.

 

[towerofpower93]

The color of the brass won't have an immediate change, based on my experience.

I can't speak intelligently on the exact processes occurring, but the dull bronze I see immediately after annealing will turn darker and more purple/brown as the annealed brass ages.

Not sure if it's the brass itself oxidizing or something left behind from the burning propane changing over time, but it doesn't show up immediately for me.

I also would not use color as an indicator of a piece of brass reaching the point of grain structure change. This would likely be different from piece to piece, leading to an inconsistent final product.

Use the Tempilaq so you know you're getting the neck/shoulder area hot enough to actually do some good.

 

[308pirate]

That's a shit response to a sensitive Teuton.

I know. But the truth is still the truth.

 

[MarinePMI]

Color has nothing to do with proper annealing. Even with the AMP, I have some cases that do not change color to the same degree as others. Same thing with a homemade auto case annealer I made. Hit the temp and roll forward. Do not rely on the color of the cooled brass as an indicator of proper annealing.

 

[308pirate]

Color has nothing to do with proper annealing. Even with the AMP, I have some cases that do not change color to the same degree as others. Same thing with a homemade auto case annealer I made. Hit the temp and roll forward. Do not rely on the color of the cooled brass as an indicator of proper annealing.

100% correct. Time and temperature are all that matters.

Annealing, like all heat treatment, is a very complex subject. For the purposes of what reloaders are trying to achieve, it can be simplified dramatically so long as the user doesn't overhink and overcomplicate things. Reloaders don't have access to the sort of tools needed to fully understand annealing so they should not even try to draw conclusions from what they do.

Follow this: https://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing and stop worrying about minutia that you have no means to control.

 

[spife7980]

Pub dab of 750 tempilaq inside the neck, run it through and see if it changed/melted/turned clear. Once you get to the point that it does then you’re good. If you put it outside the case the flame will burn it instead of the brass heating up and melting it. You want the point of the inner flame on the neck shoulder junction or halfway down the shoulder. The neck will heat up way faster than the shoulder so I center it just a bit more on the shoulder to try and make them equal when done.

Color doesn’t matter, it seems to me that the dirtier the brass the more color change it gets. With my flameless induction I notice more of a sheen change vs a color change, it’s stays brass colored but just get dull looking. Trust the tempilaq, it doesn’t melt for the heck of it.

 

[FatBoy]

Our redneck way is to shut the lights off and adjust flame and time until the area just behind the shoulder gets orange like the case mouth. Then turn the lights on, fill the hopper, put a big ass a steel coffee can under it and bullshit while we're drinking Woodford. Seems to work.

Only thing I don't care for with annealing is the seating force gets erratic, which makes me question my neck tension. Resizing with One Shot seems to help replace the powder residue that gets burned away. Moly coating would obviously solve this too.

 

[supercorndogs]

I do it like Fatboy, and kind of like the Primal Video on Scout. I have lots of extra junk brass I keep around for set up. I will usually trash a case or two, just because I want to see the sights i went too far, then back off. I put a pressure regulator on my torch also. It made a big difference in keeping my flame consistent.

Seems to me like different brands of brass change color differently. All the hornady brass I have done has really changed colors. Most the L.C brass I have done has changed back to look like the factory annealing. I did about 900 pieces of Wolf Gold brass recently, and it didn't change color at all. Lapua seems to get a gold hue, but never looks like the factory anneal when I do it. My Winchester 300wm brass gets a gold hue also. Just a couple observations that may not mean anything.

 

[Fig]

I don't know why sometimes it's vivid color change, and other times you can barely tell, but I do know that the annealing takes place regardless. The color has little to do with reducing work hardening. I like the 750 Tempilstick better than the paint. It's a lot easier to just touch the pen to the case than it is to mess with putting that paint on the case.

 

[Bradu]

I do the method Greg at Primal rights does as far as watching the flame color. I do it at night and turn off the lights so it's easier to see the change. As some said, some of the brass takes great color and some of them don't even show any change.

 

[tadawson]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but for what it's worth (and the guy that suggested an induction annealer) Giraud has a conversion for this unit . . . no need to sell and replace anything to go down that road if desired . . .

 

[TheGerman]

K I have it figured out then.

The problem was that I was getting the Tempilaq to liquefy right at the very end of the time the brass was at the flame but I never got anything close to resembling the golden annealing color. Ended up dicking around with all sorts of combinations of psi at the regulator to turn speeds to flame distance trying to find that magical setting (that apparently doesn't exist)

Now that I know the color doesn't mean a damn thing, I'm GTG at around 6.3 seconds and 8psi with the end of the flame about .25 of an inch off the case and the flame aimed at where the neck and shoulder meet.

 

[FatBoy]

we do about a dozen different calibers and it has to be set up uniquely every single time we switch. Move the torch head, speed it up, change the flame angle, a low it down. yada yada yada
... Maybe a pain but it's so nice to just full the hopper and go do something else.

 

[spife7980]

trying to find that magical setting (that apparently doesn't exist)

It does. You just have to replace the flame with a knob

 

[towerofpower93]

Nice. Didn't see they had a good induction conversion up and running. First version looked to be a bust.

And I second the need for a regulator on any gas flame annealer. Before the regulator addition I would test a Tempi-laqed case every 100 or so and as the 1lb bottle got more empty the flame would reduce and no t hit my target temp.

Since the addition I've been able to do a run of 1,200pcs of .223 and get the same melt/drop point from start to finish.

 

[TheGerman]

It does. You just have to replace the flame with a knob

Yeah yeah yeah

I looked at it but just didn't want to get that deep into it. Who knows, maybe I will eventually.

So here's a dumb question. What if you annealed brass that wasn't annealed at the 750 because it was during testing/trial and error. Did it do anything or can you simply anneal it again? Or is it trash brass? Just asking because I THOUGHT I had it right but seems I probably over annealed when I was gauging things on the goldish annealing pattern instead of the 750 Tempilaq.

 

[towerofpower93]

If you over annealed the brass it is done and off to the scrap pile it goes.

Did you put a strip of 450deg Tempilaq from midway on the case body down to the case head to ensure youbdidntvsoften anything beyond the neck and shoulder?

 

[MarinePMI]

top93 responded while I was typing, but has it right. "over annealing" burns all the zinc out of the brass (or something to that effect) that trashes the brass.

 

[spife7980]

Yeah yeah yeah

I looked at it but just didn't want to get that deep into it. Who knows, maybe I will eventually.

So here's a dumb question. What if you annealed brass that wasn't annealed at the 750 because it was during testing/trial and error. Did it do anything or can you simply anneal it again? Or is it trash brass? Just asking because I THOUGHT I had it right but seems I probably over annealed when I was gauging things on the goldish annealing pattern instead of the 750 Tempilaq.

If you dont think it got all the way hot enough then you can let it cool down to room temps and run it again. If you run it again while its hot it will have all that previous energy in it stil and wont give you an accurate result.
If you think you over annealed it how much so? Just a couple tenths of a second and I would say its probably fine. A couple complete seconds and it might be too loosey goosey. Squeeze the case mouth with some needle nose pliers and see if its appreciably different from the properly annealed stuff. If it gives/squishes easy then toss those pieces.

 

[spife7980]

top93 responded while I was typing, but has it right. "over annealing" burns all the zinc out of the brass (or something to that effect) that trashes the brass.

nope.
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/
"Dezincification of brass can occur because of chemical attack, but heating brass, even to high annealing temperatures cannot cause dezincification unless chemicals are present. The zinc content of the alloy cannot burn or melt out up until boiling point (Appendix 1 - 1.6)."

 

[MarinePMI]

Hence my "or something to that effect". I recall PR's method of watching for the outgassing to set time on the torch, and figured it was something else....

 

[flyer]

I helped set one of these up.

The biggest pain in the ass is aiming the torch head properly. The nuts and bolts that come standard are BS.

After a replacement with some adjustable arm bolt thingies (I never remember the proper name), it is a snap to adjust. Giraud should ship it that way, it would only increase the cost $5-10.

We didn't have much trouble getting the color we expected after we figured it out the first time.

The brass is behaving as expected so I'm not sure how much more precision is needed.

 

[dtraub215]

I helped set one of these up.

The biggest pain in the ass is aiming the torch head properly. The nuts and bolts that come standard are BS.

After a replacement with some adjustable arm bolt thingies (I never remember the proper name), it is a snap to adjust. Giraud should ship it that way, it would only increase the cost $5-10.

We didn't have much trouble getting the color we expected after we figured it out the first time.

The brass is behaving as expected so I'm not sure how much more precision is needed.

What type of adjustable arm bolt thingies? Are you talking about a wing nut? Thanks for your help

 

[secondofangle2]

I'm interested also in mods to the Giraud that facilitate moving the bolts to change between calibers. That is a major weak part of an otherwise superb flame annealing system (the best I would argue). I also have an AMP Mark2 which I use for 338LM 375CT and 50BMG, but I still use my Giraud for 223/556, 308, 260, etc - the bulk stuff. Large batches justify the time in setting it up, and then you have a consistent anneal for that batch.

 

[Bradu]

I'm interested also in mods to the Giraud that facilitate moving the bolts to change between calibers. That is a major weak part of an otherwise superb flame annealing system (the best I would argue). I also have an AMP Mark2 which I use for 338LM 375CT and 50BMG, but I still use my Giraud for 223/556, 308, 260, etc - the bulk stuff. Large batches justify the time in setting it up, and then you have a consistent anneal for that batch.

You could use washers to set up the height of the torches for different calibers. Make notes of how many for the caliber you are setting up.

 

[crackerbacks]

Bringing back a old thread….. what flow regulator do you guys use?

 

[supercorndogs]

I took mine off. I couldn't tell that it did anything other than add pieces.

 

[RegionRat]

Bringing back a old thread….. what flow regulator do you guys use?

I no longer remember the brand name. I bought a longer line with the tank adapter and regulator on it at the hardware store years ago.
The main idea was to get the stability of a larger thermal mass in the form of a big tank to avoid the changes of the small bottles.

I like to do larger batches with longer runs and not have to watch the flame setting, so the big tank is probably the more important part of the concept.

 

[crackerbacks]

I no longer remember the brand name. I bought a longer line with the tank adapter and regulator on it at the hardware store years ago.
The main idea was to get the stability of a larger thermal mass in the form of a big tank to avoid the changes of the small bottles.

I like to do larger batches with longer runs and not have to watch the flame setting, so the big tank is probably the more important part of the concept.

That makes sense!
Thank you

 

[gigamortis]

With my flameless induction I notice more of a sheen change vs a color change, it’s stays brass colored but just get dull looking. Trust the tempilaq, it doesn’t melt for the heck of it.

This sheen change is the effect I see on my brass when my induction anneal time is right. Its easier to see when you start with fairly shiny brass. Since I ultrasonic clean my brass, my neck IDs are clean and I can watch the sheen change live during the last few tenths of a second of induction heating. The change happens at the case rim first, then sweeps down into the neck and shoulder in about .3 sec.

I used to work maintenance in a steel mill that worked the flat sheet thinner in the cold mill. The steel gets work hardened during the force applied to get it to customer spec thickness, and the surface finish was shiny like the surface of the rolling mill rollers. The steel was then rolled up into coils and baked in an annealing heat/time process to get the hardness back out. After the annealing, the surface finish was matte instead of the original shine.

My 750 degree initial templaq testing on my brass follows the matte sheen I see to a tee.

 

[spife7980]

This sheen change is the effect I see on my brass when my induction anneal time is right. Its easier to see when you start with fairly shiny brass. Since I ultrasonic clean my brass, my neck IDs are clean and I can watch the sheen change live during the last few tenths of a second of induction heating. The change happens at the case rim first, then sweeps down into the neck and shoulder in about .3 sec.

I used to work maintenance in a steel mill that worked the flat sheet thinner in the cold mill. The steel gets work hardened during the force applied to get it to customer spec thickness, and the surface finish was shiny like the surface of the rolling mill rollers. The steel was then rolled up into coils and baked in an annealing heat/time process to get the hardness back out. After the annealing, the surface finish was matte instead of the original shine.

My 750 degree initial templaq testing on my brass follows the matte sheen I see to a tee.

Yep, the best description I’ve read since was someone saying that it looks like the brass dries out.

And like you said, the neck turns first and then the moves down the shoulder.
People say 750 isn’t enough for the neck to do anything, well the neck goes hotter than that quick, it’s when the shoulder turns that we pull it.

 

[RegionRat]

This sheen change is the effect I see on my brass when my induction anneal time is right. Its easier to see when you start with fairly shiny brass. Since I ultrasonic clean my brass, my neck IDs are clean and I can watch the sheen change live during the last few tenths of a second of induction heating. The change happens at the case rim first, then sweeps down into the neck and shoulder in about .3 sec.

I used to work maintenance in a steel mill that worked the flat sheet thinner in the cold mill. The steel gets work hardened during the force applied to get it to customer spec thickness, and the surface finish was shiny like the surface of the rolling mill rollers. The steel was then rolled up into coils and baked in an annealing heat/time process to get the hardness back out. After the annealing, the surface finish was matte instead of the original shine.

My 750 degree initial templaq testing on my brass follows the matte sheen I see to a tee.

Just a word of caution about the observations of the surface conditions on the steel and brass with respect to annealing brass cartridge necks.

TL;DR Interesting to watch, but meaningless to the annealing.

Some of my predecessors in that industry wrote many lines about surface texture and colorations with respect to annealing cartridge brass. While their observations were well documented, they only lasted about as long as they continued to buy the identical raw brass from an identical source in terms of it's chemistry.

There are many "other" trace elements in cartridge brass that are allowed under the specs. It would be expensive to get them all out and as long as we know what they are and how much is in there, we don't care. When the material meets the whole spec, that passes. Those trace elements are a very tiny fraction of the material and are affected by the source.

Then came the times when the brass came in with a difference in those trace elements, all those words and writings about the surface texture and colors went out the window. Some of them were very upset and thrown off because they were used to a stable source that always looked the same.

It was easy to show them why when the surface chemistry was analyzed. The bottom line was, if that material hit the metallurgical requirements, the cosmetics and optical surface properties didn't matter and were unreliable.

Cartridge brass will certainly show a coloration and optical surface when it is annealed, but the annealing and material properties can be correct even when those colors and surface optical properties are different. Those color changes depend on the source of the brass and are highly influenced by trace elements that have no affect on the metallurgical strength or the cartridge performance.

By all means you can watch them, but don't try to chase them as a means of controlling your annealing time or temperature. YMMV

 

[gigamortis]

Just a word of caution about the observations of the surface conditions on the steel and brass with respect to annealing brass cartridge necks.

TL;DR Interesting to watch, but meaningless to the annealing.

Some of my predecessors in that industry wrote many lines about surface texture and colorations with respect to annealing cartridge brass. While their observations were well documented, they only lasted about as long as they continued to buy the identical raw brass from an identical source in terms of it's chemistry.

There are many "other" trace elements in cartridge brass that are allowed under the specs. It would be expensive to get them all out and as long as we know what they are and how much is in there, we don't care. When the material meets the whole spec, that passes. Those trace elements are a very tiny fraction of the material and are affected by the source.

Then came the times when the brass came in with a difference in those trace elements, all those words and writings about the surface texture and colors went out the window. Some of them were very upset and thrown off because they were used to a stable source that always looked the same.

It was easy to show them why when the surface chemistry was analyzed. The bottom line was, if that material hit the metallurgical requirements, the cosmetics and optical surface properties didn't matter and were unreliable.

Cartridge brass will certainly show a coloration and optical surface when it is annealed, but the annealing and material properties can be correct even when those colors and surface optical properties are different. Those color changes depend on the source of the brass and are highly influenced by trace elements that have no affect on the metallurgical strength or the cartridge performance.

By all means you can watch them, but don't try to chase them as a means of controlling your annealing time or temperature. YMMV

Being an amateur at this metallurgy stuff, I certainly made sure I cross checked my observations with the 750 degree Templaq. For what its worth, I have only used Lapua and Starline brass so far.

 

[Baron23]

Giraud has a conversion for this unit

 

[spife7980]

Being an amateur at this metallurgy stuff, I certainly made sure I cross checked my observations with the 750 degree Templaq. For what its worth, I have only used Lapua and Starline brass so far.

While, sure with respect to strokers comments: when the sheen change happens the exact look is slightly different on different brass and with different numbers of firings on the same brass, but the same sorta phenomenon happens on lapua, norma, nosler, peterson, alpha, rem, win, fc, lc brass.
I still let tempilaq guide me but it’s not hard to notice it happens across the board every time. And tempilaq and the drying also coincides with the slight red glow of the neck in the dark. I would assume the flame change when to temp that others describe when not induction coincides as well.

Sure it’s not “hard science” but with thousands of cases across years it’s easy to observe.

 

[spife7980]

View attachment 7785837

It’s been out of production for several years now. Pisses me off.

 

[Baron23]

It’s been out of production for several years now. Pisses me off.

sigh...late to the party again! haha

I have their brass trimmer but never really looked at the annealer part of their website with any rigor.

Wonder why it has been years out of production. Now, I'm not a design EE, but what I know from actual EE's, is that making an induction coil and powering/controlling it is really not a ground breaking challenge.

I use my friend's AMP until I feel like getting off the $$ for my own (this year sometime...been too busy going broke buying other rifle stuff! haha).

I just think, based on my little bit of knowledge, that an induction heater type rig is more controllable (repeatable) and certainly better from a fire safety hazard POV. But then, I'm an idiot who once almost burnt his house down...close call and long ago but its the type of memory that keeps on giving! LOL

 

[spife7980]

sigh...late to the party again! haha

I have their brass trimmer but never really looked at the annealer part of their website with any rigor.

Wonder why it has been years out of production. Now, I'm not a design EE, but what I know from actual EE's, is that making an induction coil and powering/controlling it is really not a ground breaking challenge.

I use my friend's AMP until I feel like getting off the $$ for my own (this year sometime...been too busy going broke buying other rifle stuff! haha).

I just think, based on my little bit of knowledge, that an induction heater type rig is more controllable (repeatable) and certainly better from a fire safety hazard POV. But then, I'm an idiot who once almost burnt his house down...close call and long ago but its the type of memory that keeps on giving! LOL

Word on the street when they first put a pause on it was that they were going to come out with a new model so I didn’t pursue getting one of the old models. Well I’m still waiting, not so patiently.