Any SVD Shooters here?

Nostradumbass

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I realize SVD’s are fairly rare in the US, but they’re definitely part of the Vintage Sniper Rifles of the world.....and my favorite!

I have found that a Chinese NDM-86 has surprisingly decent accuracy. When I bought it, I was expecting 2-3 MOA at best. PPU match ammunition has consistently produced 1 MOA groups out to 600yds.

The rifle is definitely not on the same level as a precision built bolt gun, but it definitely will hold accuracy alongside my SR-25.

Has anyone else here had comparable results with an SVD?

Thanks!
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Nostradumbass

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9 Hole reviews did two videos, one talking about history etc... and the other actually taking it out and shooting it.


Yes sir,
I watched it. Two issues though.... The first was the rifle they fielded was chambered in 7.62x51.
In addition, they used a standard 4x optic. There are higher magnification Russian optics that will allow the shooter to have a higher level of accuracy at distance over the original 4x model.

I’m currently using a Russian PO 3-9X first focal plane SVD Optic. It’s really helped at longer distances.
 

fdkay

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    Yes sir,
    I watched it. Two issues though.... The first was the rifle they fielded was chambered in 7.62x51.
    In addition, they used a standard 4x optic. There are higher magnification Russian optics that will allow the shooter to have a higher level of accuracy at distance over the original 4x model.

    I’m currently using a Russian PO 3-9X first focal plane SVD Optic. It’s really helped at longer distances.
    Understood. They explain much of that and they were trying to establish, as best they could, how effective the issued weapon could be. To The best of my knowledge, the weapons aren't issued with a 3-9× scope.
     

    Nostradumbass

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    Understood. They explain much of that and they were trying to establish, as best they could, how effective the issued weapon could be. To The best of my knowledge, the weapons aren't issued with a 3-9× scope.
    Right on. 👍🏽
    Traditionally, you’re right; the SVD was issued with a PSO-1 4x optic. Speaking with friends in Russia, they are currently also fielding the PSO 3-9X24 optic. Alpha, FSB, and other high speed Russian Operators are using S&B, and other high end glass on the SVD.

    41552CA6-287B-4403-AEEC-C5F4BE95E947.jpeg
     

    Recon_Scout

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    Yes sir,
    I watched it. Two issues though.... The first was the rifle they fielded was chambered in 7.62x51.
    In addition, they used a standard 4x optic. There are higher magnification Russian optics that will allow the shooter to have a higher level of accuracy at distance over the original 4x model.

    I’m currently using a Russian PO 3-9X first focal plane SVD Optic. It’s really helped at longer distances.
    I agree, I ran a POSP 8x42D scope on it for a while, then moved to a Vortex PST Gen 2 3-15x44 (Thats was the optic for 3/4 MOA groupings). I'm still struggling to find a good mount for consistent scope engagement. I had an RS Regulate with ARK rail, but I found that it does not hold up to 7.62x54R recoil well.
     

    fdkay

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    Right on. 👍🏽
    Traditionally, you’re right; the SVD was issued with a PSO-1 4x optic. Speaking with friends in Russia, they are currently also fielding the PSO 3-9X24 optic. Alpha, FSB, and other high speed Russian Operators are using S&B, and other high end glass on the SVD.

    View attachment 7503252
    Nice!
    It is a very well designed system and does exactly what it was designed to do!
    Interesting that they are moving to more capable optics.
    Makes sense and they are a rather pragmatic bunch.
     
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    Strykervet

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    Right on. 👍🏽
    Traditionally, you’re right; the SVD was issued with a PSO-1 4x optic. Speaking with friends in Russia, they are currently also fielding the PSO 3-9X24 optic. Alpha, FSB, and other high speed Russian Operators are using S&B, and other high end glass on the SVD.

    View attachment 7503252

    That's some high speed shit he's got there. I thought that was some sort of keymod tubed and piston driven AR at first glance! Stock, huh... that action? Shit, that's an SVD! Some of the new Russian stuff I wouldn't mind having. Not into AK's but I wouldn't mind an AK12 or AK15 (the yellow one Wikipedia would be nice).

    But I am very much into SDM shit and that's what these rifles really were intended for IIRC. Unfortunately I wasn't able to bite back in the 90's when I could get one, new with all the shit, for under $2k. The Tigr's were less, $1800? And those PSL's? $300? AK74's were $189, I had one. If I only knew then what I know now...
     

    Recon_Scout

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    That's some high speed shit he's got there. I thought that was some sort of keymod tubed and piston driven AR at first glance! Stock, huh... that action? Shit, that's an SVD! Some of the new Russian stuff I wouldn't mind having. Not into AK's but I wouldn't mind an AK12 or AK15 (the yellow one Wikipedia would be nice).

    But I am very much into SDM shit and that's what these rifles really were intended for IIRC. Unfortunately I wasn't able to bite back in the 90's when I could get one, new with all the shit, for under $2k. The Tigr's were less, $1800? And those PSL's? $300? AK74's were $189, I had one. If I only knew then what I know now...

    Its SVDS stock and chassis, rail looks like SAG or a Russian clone of SAG

     
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    fdkay

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    That's some high speed shit he's got there. I thought that was some sort of keymod tubed and piston driven AR at first glance! Stock, huh... that action? Shit, that's an SVD! Some of the new Russian stuff I wouldn't mind having. Not into AK's but I wouldn't mind an AK12 or AK15 (the yellow one Wikipedia would be nice).

    But I am very much into SDM shit and that's what these rifles really were intended for IIRC. Unfortunately I wasn't able to bite back in the 90's when I could get one, new with all the shit, for under $2k. The Tigr's were less, $1800? And those PSL's? $300? AK74's were $189, I had one. If I only knew then what I know now...
    Did you mean BDSM???
     

    sirhrmechanic

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    Did you mean BDSM???
    I addition to the whips and trussing, he subscribes to the Squad Designated Marksman theory...

    I have an SVD just because I have an AK fetish. One of every variant.

    Never shot it. But assume it shoots minute of German, which is what it was designed for. West German that is.

    Sirhr
     
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    Blutroop

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    I had a pls-54 (Romanian copy) with a 8x instead of the usual 4x and I really loved it. It was my first long range capable rifle and was more accurate than me. I found myself going through a messy divorce and it was the first rifle I ever sold. This was also during sandy hook so I was able to sell it for twice what I paid for it. That took some of the sting away.. I really miss mine. It would be a lot more at home now that I can shoot that far any time I want.
     
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    fdkay

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    I addition to the whips and trussing, he subscribes to the Squad Designated Marksman theory...

    I have an SVD just because I have an AK fetish. One of every variant.

    Never shot it. But assume it shoots minute of German, which is what it was designed for. West German that is.

    Sirhr
    I know, I should have included the winking emoji, you know like the winking of his....
     

    Strykervet

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    used to stare at the shotgun news for hours wanting one...but thats as close as i ever got living in NY

    Ahhh, Shotgun News... Those were the days. Yeah, missed my fair share of SVD's and others. Damn sure want one now, just not willing to pay what I've seen 'em going for. SVD vs. HK 417 and I'll have to go with the HK. I wonder what it costs Russia to make one.

    Did you mean BDSM???

    Well, if you ever saw some of our videos... Particularly the one where we pulled the pants down on a cadet and made him ride a mockup of a IRBM gagged with hands and feet tied! I think he had a sign around his neck too. It was supposed to be a "hostage proof of life" photo but we could never take training cadets seriously. They were just too much fun. We got in bit of trouble for that one, apparently it was "degrading"?
     

    towerofpower93

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    I've got one of the KBI SVDs and a B-West Tigr I had converted into an SVDS by Richard Parker.

    The KBI definitely groups tighter than the Tigr/SVDS and I'd call it a 2MOA rifle on a normal day with a few sub-MOA groups popping up from time to time.

    I used the Lapua D166 initially before going to the 174gr SMK. Have another 1,000 of the D166 I'll likely use once my SMK loads run out.

    The 4x PSO-1 is fine for what it is, but I run a PST Gen 2 3-15 on a modern Russian mount when I want to actually shoot for accuracy or at distance.
     
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    Recon_Scout

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    I've got on of the KBI SVDs and a B-West Tigr I had converted into an SVDS by Richard Parker.

    The KBI definitely groups tighter than the Tigr/SVDS and I'd call it a 2MOA rifle on a normal day with a few sub-MOA groups popping up from time to time.

    I used the Lapua D166 initially before going to the 174gr SMK. Have another 1,000 of the D166 I'll likely use once my SMK loads run out.

    The 4x PSO-1 is fine for what it is, but I run a PST Gen 2 3-15 on a modern Russian mount when I want to actually shoot for accuracy or at distance.
    Which mount specifically? I have a ZenitCo B-13N which I'm not in love with, I tried RS Regulate which absolutely sucked (recoil bent the aluminum lug on the back).
     

    towerofpower93

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    Which mount specifically? I have a ZenitCo B-13N which I'm not in love with, I tried RS Regulate which absolutely sucked (recoil bent the aluminum lug on the back).

    Will have to poke around my email archive to find the receipt as I bought it years ago.

    I actually used a modified (milled some material off the inside so it wouldn’t contact the top cover) RSR mount for a bit, but when I put the modern smooth sided top cover on it would bind due to that top cover being made from .5mm thicker sheet metal.

    RSR was supposed to come out with a mount for SVDs some years back (called it the -305 if I remember correctly) and I even sent him my thicker modern dust cover for clearance T&E purposes, but it never came to market. Was kinda bummed as the modified one worked great for me for a number of years while using the rifle in DMR matches.
     

    Recon_Scout

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    Will have to poke around my email archive to find the receipt as I bought it years ago.

    I actually used a modified (milled some material off the inside so it wouldn’t contact the top cover) RSR mount for a bit, but when I put the modern smooth sided top cover on it would bind due to that top cover being made from .5mm thicker sheet metal.

    RSR was supposed to come out with a mount for SVDs some years back (called it the -305 if I remember correctly) and I even sent them my thicker modern dust cover for clearance purposes, but it never came to market. Was kinda bummed as the modified one worked great for me for a number of years while using the rifle in DMR matches.

    I had the same issue with the original cover had to mill out some material from the back, but as you can see from the recoil lug in the back it started getting deformed. On the other hand, I have heard various reports about the advantage of the new smooth cover, do you feel it works better for you? (i.e. tightens the group)
    File_002.jpeg
     

    towerofpower93

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    I had the same issue with the original cover had to mill out some material from the back, but as you can see from the recoil lug in the back it started getting deformed. On the other hand, I have heard various reports about the advantage of the new smooth cover, do you feel it works better for you? (i.e. tightens the group)
    View attachment 7504510

    Never did a head to head comparison. I bought it as I swapped the wood furniture out for the black polymer and with the KBI SVDs having all the modern features I wanted to dress it up full on early 2000s style. I was big into the AK game at that time and getting my rifles period and arsenal correct was my kink.

    The KBI was a post-deployment gift to myself and once I had it in hand I dressed it up with the proper furniture and newer 8x Russian optic for a mid-2000s era Russian SVD. While the 8x optic is probably great for shooting full size humans out to distance, it sucked at my local DMR match where 1/2-1MOA targets out to 650yds were the game. Hence the move to a 2-10x PST Gen 1 and then a 3-15x PST Gen 2 and the need for the modified RSR mount before Russian weapons accessory manufacturers figured out the game.
     
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    towerofpower93

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    Its SVDS stock and chassis, rail looks like SAG or a Russian clone of SAG


    There’s an extensive thread on the AK Files Forum ref that chassis which has a ton of info from the guy who designed it included. Was on the hunt for a cheap Tiger for a couple years to dress up as a super modern rifle, but never found one.
     

    juha_teuvonnen

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    The NDM-86 is a copy of SVD, but not an exact one. For example fire control group won't interchange between the two. I know of three different barrel twists that SVDs come with, and it makes a difference in which bullets it likes and how well it shoots them. Military SVDs made from 1963 to 1969 have a 320mm barrel twist (approximately 1:12.6). These rifles shoot 150-ish grain bullets very well, including 7N1 sniper ammo. Good luck finding one of these rifles in the US. From 1969 to present the military SVDs have 240mm twist (1:9.44). They stabilize heavier bullets better, Russian 200 grain match ammo works well in these. Some export versions have 280mm twist (1:11) according to the factory, which is a compromise between 240 and 320mm. I have never seen or shot one of these. I don't know what twist the Chinese went with for the NDM-86, so I don't know which ammo it will like. Overall, I Chinese rifles are reportedly of same and at times better quality than Russian, but I have never shot one.

    With Tigr hunting carbines, the barrel is 530mm long, so it is shorter than both that of a full-length SVD (620mm) and SVDS (565mm). I believe that up to 1994 Tigr had 240mm twist, and 320mm after 1994. Special order Tigrs can have any twist you want, and Russians generally prefer 320mm as it is more accurate with the ammo they typically shoot in these. Handloading has been illegal in Russia up until 2018, so they have to rely on factory ammo, which tends to suck.

    With everythin made in the former USSR, a lot depends on the luck of the draw. USSR was not exactly known for consistency of manufacturing. Some rifles turned out great, others not so much. When we shot brand new out of the crate military SVDs, some would shoot better than others with the 7N1 ammo coming out of the same can. Sometimes two rifles with consecutive or very close serial numbers would show different groups. Mostly it's about the barrel, if you get a really good one SVD will shoot very well with quality ammo. There isn't much gunsmithing or accurizing to it, aside from slight clean up of locking lugs. And even that, frankly speaking, is completely optional. Additionally, some years of 7N1 are better than others, so the result depends on the ammo too, even if you are shooting proper Russian sniper ammo.

    If you get an SVD with a good barrel and develop a good load, it will shoot sub-MOA. If you get one with a bad barrel, it's a 1.5-2 MOA rifle. With surplus "machine gun" ammo even a good one will shoot groups upwards of 2-3 MOA. With civilian 148 grain Russian ammo a good one will shoot 2 -2.5 MOA, depending on ammo quality.
     

    Triggered

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    My first time living in New Zealand circa 2015 I was always baffled going into the local hunting shop where they had a few firearms for sale and of course it was 'goofy Russian' stuff that we couldn't get in the US - brand new Tigrs, SVDS, modern AKs for relatively inexpensive compared to State side prices for vintage gear.

    Never had the chance to get on one, but have always found them intriguing to say the least.
     
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    Festeraxp

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    I just bought what I believe is a chassis for this gun. Just bought it off pictures didn’t receive it yet but I think I know what it is. Tell me if I’m wrong. I’ll post the pic. Probably a crappy one and I don’t know why I bought it but oh well.
     

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    Recon_Scout

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    juha_teuvonnen

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    I just bought what I believe is a chassis for this gun. Just bought it off pictures didn’t receive it yet but I think I know what it is. Tell me if I’m wrong. I’ll post the pic. Probably a crappy one and I don’t know why I bought it but oh well.
    This is not an SVD chassis . This is a stock for an SKS that has a buttstock modeled after that of an SVD.
     
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    NGCSUGrad09

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    About a year and a half ago I have the opportunity to put some rounds through a Russian SVD in Ukraine. I was very pleasantly surprised how well it shot and easy it was to re-engage targets quickly. I don't remember exactly, but 1-1.5 MOA wasn't too hard to achieve. It was more of a fam/fun fire so we didn't get too crazy analyzing it, but it was fun to get to shoot one.

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    LRRPF52

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    Here’s the former KGB Helsinki Station Chief’s SVD. He had the full enchilada, aluminum hard case, all the Basic Inventory Items, umbilical battery pack for extreme cold to power the illumination and IR signature detection feature (looked like it had been built in some back-alley bazaar by half-apes), and was in excellent condition. A well-known collector in Finland bought it after the Soviet collapse when Russians were selling everything that wasn’t bolted down.

    iu
     

    Joelives

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    I present the 7.62x51mm sporting rifle model NDM-86 . China Jianshe industries (group)Corp. Feb.1994
    Imported by BTC Selmonte CA. around 1994 -1995 , then sold by CDDN in 2002 . The CDNN rifles had a firing pin problem (weak springs ) that resulted in slam fires . They recalled them and did bolt firing pin fix . This one was sent to Mark Krebs who took a SVD bolt (not the carrier ) , and brazed in a reducing ring to hold the cartridge case ,then head spaced it . It shoots about .75 at 100 with 168 match. The stock and scope are mismatched serial numbers to the receiver ,all other numbers match . It’s a nice kit that I’ve had for years. there is a really good review in the October 1997 Small Arms Review vol 1 no 1 . 2 1/2 lb trigger ,24" 9.7 twist chrome lined , 4x illuminated scope with IR filter ( the kit includes extra bulbs ,eye pieces cleaning kit etc) 48' OAL, and 10lb . They shot amazing groups . enjoy
     

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    towerofpower93

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    I present the 7.62x51mm sporting rifle model NDM-86 . China Jianshe industries (group)Corp. Feb.1994
    Imported by BTC Selmonte CA. around 1994 -1995 , then sold by CDDN in 2002 . The CDNN rifles had a firing pin problem (weak springs ) that resulted in slam fires . They recalled them and did bolt firing pin fix . This one was sent to Mark Krebs who took a SVD bolt (not the carrier ) , and brazed in a reducing ring to hold the cartridge case ,then head spaced it . It shoots about .75 at 100 with 168 match. The stock and scope are mismatched serial numbers to the receiver ,all other numbers match . It’s a nice kit that I’ve had for years. there is a really good review in the October 1997 Small Arms Review vol 1 no 1 . 2 1/2 lb trigger ,24" 9.7 twist chrome lined , 4x illuminated scope with IR filter ( the kit includes extra bulbs ,eye pieces cleaning kit etc) 48' OAL, and 10lb . They shot amazing groups . enjoy

    Gorgeous rifle. Still kicking myself for not getting a .308 NDM back in 2014-15 when I was in full bore collecting mode.

    Two minor points with your post:

    1. The firing pins and bolts on military Chinese rifles, like their Russian counterparts, were never designed to have a firing pin spring. The Russian Tigr hunting rifles do have a factory designed firing pin with spring along with a different bolt to match. Specifically, the bolt stem is bored open to a larger diameter so the spring and bushing the spring rests on can fit inside the bolt stem. Once the .308 NDMs came in and slam fires from commercial ammo became a reported issue CDNN offered a recall in which they added the spring and drilled a hole in the firing pin for it. Not everyone sent their rifles back though, so you can sometimes find a .308 NDM with the unmolested firing pin.

    2. The number on the stock and scope won't match the rest of the serial numbered parts on the rifle, but those two should match as the number on the stock is that of the matched/zeroed scope. Basically, it was a quick way to ensure the right scope went to the right (zeroed) rifle when being issued.

    Interested in any additional info you can provide about what Mark did to accurize your rifle. Sounds like he took a Russian 7.62x54R bolt and brazed in a ring so it works with the .308 case head and rim, correct? Have to modify the extractor at all? Would love some close up pics of that if possible just to see what it looks like.
     
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    Joelives

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    Thank you for the additional information , I always wondered about the stock and scope nor matching the rifle numbers . I believe Mark used a Remington 700 magnum bolt face reducer sleeve and then machined it . Yes it was a 7.62x 54r bolt. I’m not sure what else he did because it’s hard to improve perfection. It does much better than .75 but I get called out every time because no one believes a 25 year old “SVD” will keep up with there new super AR 10. Enjoy
     

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    jjjxlr8

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    Sadly, I've never tried any good match ammo or even my own reloads in my SVD type rifles but I have had good results with the surplus Czech light ball from 1986. I've had really good groups in my PU snipers and also my Romanian PSL54C with the bxn 86 ammo so I did a direct comparison with some 7N1 in my Type 79 (NDM-86). Here's the results and some pictures for brianf. :)

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    Gustav7

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    Any SVD fans been keeping up with the drama between AK files forum, MAC and Copper custom? I've been reading some of hte comments on the Copper Custom facebook page and its intense lol.

    Any insight into that?
     

    Sooter76

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    Any SVD fans been keeping up with the drama between AK files forum, MAC and Copper custom? I've been reading some of hte comments on the Copper Custom facebook page and its intense lol.

    Any insight into that?
    Yep. Long story short...

    A good while back a FEG associate posted on AKFiles to put together a ‘will buy’ name list to gauge interest in these rifles. This is the same list that Tim claims didn’t exist and then later changed his story to ‘is old and was never official’. That Tim is a regular in the Files and the list was the subject of much excitement for at least a year tells me he was lying from the get go and was very aware of its existence... I saw the list talked about on ARFcom and a couple other forums as well, but sign up was confined to AKFiles. Anyway, seems Tim and CC swooped in with the importer and bought all of them up with plans to auction them off 5 at a time on gunbroker with a ‘starting bid’ of $5k, which incidentally is the top end of what they were expected to sell for once they came in. This has pissed off the community who have fake bid the rifles up to a $million each, sticking CC with the sellers fee even though they have no intention of buying the rifles. Tim and CC have since changed their story to only 5 we’re going to be auctioned on gunbroker and the rest were to be sold direct they CC, but nobody believes that. It seems far more likely that they were going to auction off 5 at a time to maximize profits.

    The issues regarding this fiasco are...

    1) Tim and CC lied about the existence of the list and therefore those who helped prod FEG into actually building the guns and jumping they the ATF hoops to get
    2) Tim recently put out a video lambasting ‘scalpers’ who buy popular rifles just to sell them for jacked up prices on GB, then turns around and does the same thing... A lot of people are pissed off at the hypocrisy alone. I fall into this camp as I had and have no interest in buying one myself.
    3) The expected price was supposed to be between $3500-$5000. The auctions start at $5000 and CC is selling them direct for $7500 (rumor is CC got them for around $3200 each).

    Now Tim and CC have not done anything illegal as there was never a binding contract between the FEG rep and those who signed up promising to buy a rifle. But what they did is still unethical and sleazy and a big middle finger to those who helped prove there was a market. This story has blown up into such a mess that it has been reported on in Hungary and FEG (who seems to have had nothing to do with the sleaze, that was between CC and the importer) has supposedly contacted CC to urge them to honor the list. However, even if they do, for those who expected to pay $5000 at most, $7500 is still bullshit and you have to assume many won’t be able to come up with the extra $2500. Regardless, Tim has destroyed his reputation and may end up taking CC down with him.
     
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    Guthwine

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    Jan 27, 2019
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    Any SVD fans been keeping up with the drama between AK files forum, MAC and Copper custom? I've been reading some of hte comments on the Copper Custom facebook page and its intense lol.

    Any insight into that?
    I think the lesson here is always get a binding contract. :)
     
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    Gustav7

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    Yep. Long story short...

    A good while back a FEG associate posted on AKFiles to put together a ‘will buy’ name list to gauge interest in these rifles. This is the same list that Tim claims didn’t exist and then later changed his story to ‘is old and was never official’. That Tim is a regular in the Files and the list was the subject of much excitement for at least a year tells me he was lying from the get go and was very aware of its existence... I saw the list talked about on ARFcom and a couple other forums as well, but sign up was confined to AKFiles. Anyway, seems Tim and CC swooped in with the importer and bought all of them up with plans to auction them off 5 at a time on gunbroker with a ‘starting bid’ of $5k, which incidentally is the top end of what they were expected to sell for once they came in. This has pissed off the community who have fake bid the rifles up to a $million each, sticking CC with the sellers fee even though they have no intention of buying the rifles. Tim and CC have since changed their story to only 5 we’re going to be auctioned on gunbroker and the rest were to be sold direct they CC, but nobody believes that. It seems far more likely that they were going to auction off 5 at a time to maximize profits.

    The issues regarding this fiasco are...

    1) Tim and CC lied about the existence of the list and therefore those who helped prod FEG into actually building the guns and jumping they the ATF hoops to get
    2) Tim recently put out a video lambasting ‘scalpers’ who buy popular rifles just to sell them for jacked up prices on GB, then turns around and does the same thing... A lot of people are pissed off at the hypocrisy alone. I fall into this camp as I had and have no interest in buying one myself.
    3) The expected price was supposed to be between $3500-$5000. The auctions start at $5000 and CC is selling them direct for $7500 (rumor is CC got them for around $3200 each).

    Now Tim and CC have not done anything illegal as there was never a binding contract between the FEG rep and those who signed up promising to buy a rifle. But what they did is still unethical and sleazy and a big middle finger to those who helped prove there was a market. This story has blown up into such a mess that it has been reported on in Hungary and FEG (who seems to have had nothing to do with the sleaze, that was between CC and the importer) has supposedly contacted CC to urge them to honor the list. However, even if they do, for those who expected to pay $5000 at most, $7500 is still bullshit and you have to assume many won’t be able to come up with the extra $2500. Regardless, Tim has destroyed his reputation and may end up taking CC down with him.

    Ya after reading pages and pages of forums and facebook comments, etc... I feel like theres no getting around that Copper Custom screwed the pooch at MINIMUM with the GB shit, not acknowledging certain details, and the back peddling. It seems like Tim/MAC really made the entire situation worse. Copper Custom made it sound like Tim was only about 50% up to date on the specifics and then made that video and responded to a lot of comments incorrectly and it just flamed that fire. The last few years, it seems his attitude has shifted and he just comes off so snarky and holier-than-thou, but I suppose with a million followers he probably gets SO MUCH negative bullshit from the toxic side of the gun community.

    I feel like the truth is ALWAYS somewhere in the middle. I want to know what FEG has to say about it all, and why people are giving Trident and FEG a pass, but roasting Copper Custom. Copper swears that they themselves did all the leg work for the ATF approval and import. If we're being very optimistic about CC's comments, it sounds like they thought of that list as a pure marketing ploy to get the import moving...and then deuced that list when the imports came in, which is still a little screwy, but if they did in fact do all the legwork, then I guess they have a tiny bit of ground to stand on. Still looks horrible on them lol.

    If the one dude (PRIDUBI??) from AK files did in fact do a lot of the legwork, then where is he at? He's gotta be in this discussion somewhere right?

    All I know is running a business isn't easy...and individuals make it even harder to do. The gun community can really be ruthless and selfish sometimes, but that being said, it sounds like Copper shot themselves in the foot regardless. I sure as hell wouldn't wanna be in that position from the beginning lol
     

    Sooter76

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    I want to know what FEG has to say about it all, and why people are giving Trident and FEG a pass, but roasting Copper Custom. Copper swears that they themselves did all the leg work for the ATF approval and import.
    FEG built the rifles but Trident imported them. FEG really didn’t have a lot to do with any of this but they have requested CC honor the list. Tim and CC says they will but has poo pooed doing so cuz they seem to want to gouge the market with a 100% or more profit. Of course that’s not the excuse they’re giving. They are essentially capitalizing on the panic and the desirability of the rifle in question. While not illegal it isn’t what people on the lists expected or nominally agreed to. This has created enough bad press that I wouldn’t be surprised if FEG avoids worked with Trident again and tries to avoid selling their guns thru CC again (tho I’m not sure how the latter would work).

    Nobody's giving Trident a pass. They’re pissed at them as well, but Trident merely imported the guns and aren’t in charge of pricing, how they’re sold, or if the list is honored. From my understanding Larry Vickers helped get ATF approval quicker than normal and is pretty pissed at Tim and CC actions, but that could be internet rumor.