Anybody read the Marine Times article on new Marine sniper MOS

[pmclaine]

What sort of bullshit is that? Please tell me you answered that mind-rape "survey" for him (or at least joked about it while he was filling it out)!

We got notice via email the night before the kids were going to take part in a health questionnaire.

Next day they did it.

Last night I had to explain the terms to him because he had no clue as to what he answered.

Question 53 he told me he answered yes to opiod abuse thinking Advil was what they were asking about.

Public policy will probably result if this is a widely taken study.

Garbage in. Garbage out.

 

[myronman3]

They would die puffing wind with a huge stockpile of ammo but it would be heroism for the ages rivaling the Spartan 300.

well of course they would. That’s the point....they are too old and tired to run. And itching for an honorable end befitting of a warrior.

 

[Redmanss]

well of course they would. That’s the point....they are too old and tired to run. And itching for an honorable end befitting of a warrior.

Fear the enemy that not only won't run away, but can't either.

 

[myronman3]

if a fellow stops and thinks about it...it really is kinda dumb that we send the young and inexperienced off to fight. if you can put together guys that are still able....and dont kid yourself, old guys always find a way to get shit done despite not hving youth and energy.

definately some drawbacks, but there would be a lot of benefits.

 

[sandwarrior]

pmc,

The "Times" publications may or may not be left, but the issue is a real one. The Marines have a shortage of qualified snipers.

FWIW, I don't think the military experience is wasted on the youth. They have to start somewhere, and it might as well be the guys who can do all the physical work. Yeah, I got smarter with experience, but there were things I could do as a 20 year old that I'll never be able to touch again, and they were things you might find in a combat situation.

As a kind of aside to this Army Times posted an article about 3rd Batt Rangers doing PT with recruits for the motivation factor. In today's Army you can go Ranger if you have an "option 40" attached to your enlistment contract. In basic, you can still get that attached without issue, if there is a need for your MOS in a Ranger Bn. Infantry is pretty much a given. And, in the Army sniping is an infantry skill, not an MOS. So the limitations don't exist if that's your thing. Still all the option 40 gives is the chance to go to RASP. You have to pass RASP to get in a BN.

 

[pmclaine]

pmc,

The "Times" publications may or may not be left, but the issue is a real one. The Marines have a shortage of qualified snipers.

FWIW, I don't think the military experience is wasted on the youth. They have to start somewhere, and it might as well be the guys who can do all the physical work. Yeah, I got smarter with experience, but there were things I could do as a 20 year old that I'll never be able to touch again, and they were things you might find in a combat situation.

As a kind of aside to this Army Times posted an article about 3rd Batt Rangers doing PT with recruits for the motivation factor. In today's Army you can go Ranger if you have an "option 40" attached to your enlistment contract. In basic, you can still get that attached without issue, if there is a need for your MOS in a Ranger Bn. Infantry is pretty much a given. And, in the Army sniping is an infantry skill, not an MOS. So the limitations don't exist if that's your thing. Still all the option 40 gives is the chance to go to RASP. You have to pass RASP to get in a BN.

The military times may be "left" but its not outright New York Times propaganda. My over sensitive antennae just sometimes pick up an idea or attitude that strikes me as not being of the mil mindset. These papers are not an inside mil publication with articles by active duty war correspondents and mil photographers its contracted by civilian businesses with a little bit of military PAO input.

I acknowledge the problem is real and I think the factors that make getting bodies for my job apply in the USMC. If not exactly alike they are similar. Im guessing USMC is finding its tough to get people to stand on the "yellow footprints" and as that pool shrinks its only hard truth that the pool willing to take "extra" training would shrink.

My comment on "waste" is half facetious. I believe my time in USMC paved the way for all that came after. Not a day passes I dont think for some second about my time in service. Its a great education and the kids that do it may be able to shed some of the naivete' and help them focus on whats important. By "wasted on the young" my regret is not taking advantage of opportunities that I missed because my young priorities were directed in another direction. Why did I take a Honcho to Kinville or see how many cold $.50 Budweisers I could drink out of the Schwab rec room "Coke" machine when I could have went to visit Sugar Loaf Hill or boonie stomped a battleground. Ditto Europe instead of partying in the Marine Houses of Moscow or Geneva why didnt I travel in those countries instead of thinking about how much money I would have selling back my leave when I went EAS? I got screwed in Liberia when they decided to hold a war so the travel and stuff I wanted to do in the Africa Corps was never a possibility. Still though my young self took advantage of the educational opportunities and getting called up for DSI allowed me to be where I am today.

I have no problem with someone signing papers with a specialty field contract. Just has to be done so under the stipulation you have to meet all the requirements to get there. I dont think most people understand the reality of getting there and I wonder how many "guaranteed SEALs" end up messmen? Nothing wrong with messmen, the machine will stop without them, but as mentioned earlier good planning and intentions can be tough to fulfill without the heart and desire.

 

[sandwarrior]

The military times may be "left" but its not outright New York Times propaganda. My over sensitive antennae just sometimes pick up an idea or attitude that strikes me as not being of the mil mindset. These papers are not an inside mil publication with articles by active duty war correspondents and mil photographers its contracted by civilian businesses with a little bit of military PAO input.

I acknowledge the problem is real and I think the factors that make getting bodies for my job apply in the USMC. If not exactly alike they are similar. Im guessing USMC is finding its tough to get people to stand on the "yellow footprints" and as that pool shrinks its only hard truth that the pool willing to take "extra" training would shrink.

My comment on "waste" is half facetious. I believe my time in USMC paved the way for all that came after. Not a day passes I dont think for some second about my time in service. Its a great education and the kids that do it may be able to shed some of the naivete' and help them focus on whats important. By "wasted on the young" my regret is not taking advantage of opportunities that I missed because my young priorities were directed in another direction. Why did I take a Honcho to Kinville or see how many cold $.50 Budweisers I could drink out of the Schwab rec room "Coke" machine when I could have went to visit Sugar Loaf Hill or boonie stomped a battleground. Ditto Europe instead of partying in the Marine Houses of Moscow or Geneva why didnt I travel in those countries instead of thinking about how much money I would have selling back my leave when I went EAS? I got screwed in Liberia when they decided to hold a war so the travel and stuff I wanted to do in the Africa Corps was never a possibility. Still though my young self took advantage of the educational opportunities and getting called up for DSI allowed me to be where I am today.

I have no problem with someone signing papers with a specialty field contract. Just has to be done so under the stipulation you have to meet all the requirements to get there. I dont think most people understand the reality of getting there and I wonder how many "guaranteed SEALs" end up messmen? Nothing wrong with messmen, the machine will stop without them, but as mentioned earlier good planning and intentions can be tough to fulfill without the heart and desire.

I knew I could bring the “real you” out. Must’ve been that snickers. Great points all.
Yes, I too let opportunities go by as a young man in the military. But, I also have to say a lot of my opportunities and education came by way of the fact I stepped into the things I did when I went in.

 

[pmclaine]

I knew I could bring the “real you” out. Must’ve been that snickers. Great points all.
Yes, I too let opportunities go by as a young man in the military. But, I also have to say a lot of my opportunities and education came by way of the fact I stepped into the things I did when I went in.

You had real me. I dont eat Snickers, its not Keto friendly, make mine a stick of butter please.

I still think that first enlistment does not get full value out of the body. My job is not military but it deals with "situations" and even here it takes about 5 years until you can be thrown into just about any "situation" and handle it somewhat competently.

My USMC experience is different in that it was "peace time".

I have to believe that with the certainty of deployments these days guys are much more attentive coming out of basic and the whole learning curve accelerates. Id expect you get a more "mature" product faster. Once in a unit prior deployed people are going to ensure this.

It has to or Darwin will take your number.

That theory is contra to my comments of SJWs and Rainbow warriors entring the serviceand bringing their indoctrination with them.

That means the boot camps have to be letting inferior product by and in the case of candidates going to school from the Fleet their Platoons accepted poor performance.

I could see boot camp or the school graduating sub standard trainees on orders but the platoon members would be loathe to do so because their lives are at risk due to the weakest link.

Interesting story...when I went to my Academy during the meeting with the psychologist to determine how I was handling the stress she commented on her surprise so many Marines were dropping out. It was 2004. Only thing I could think of was what guy wants to come back from his combat tour, perhaps a second or third by that time, and have some cock sucker play full on boot camp games with him? I figured they were just burnt out.

Perhaps the people going to the school are exhausted? doesnt explain guys that have never deployed washing out though unless thats a maturity issue.

 

[pmclaine]

Regards my kids survey.....sent to his principle this AM

Kristen, Nicole,

I'm sure you have had some contact regarding the mental health "survey".

Include me as a parent that believes the material was inappropriate for the age group and also dangerous.

I am not naive and I realize there are a variety of life experiences even in the sedate Arlington community but as educators in the school system you should know your students and understand that the topics inquired about would include subjects and vocabulary many of the 6th graders would not understand well enough to provide an appropriate response.

I don't see how there could be any possible statistically valid information derived from this "survey" and that should not have been too difficult for its designers to understand. This makes me wonder why it was even presented for the kids to participate in.

When I went over the survey with my child he asked me to define many of the terms with no understanding of what they meant. If he didn't understand all the terms how could any answer be valid? "Garbage in, Garbage out" comes to mind.

When I asked about his answers to questions it was apparent he didn't understand the ideas and concepts. In one question he answered yes to using non prescribed opiates thinking the over the counter Aleve he has taken was similar. He answered yes to alcohol use because when a wine glass had tipped at a dinner and some splashed on his shirt he wiped it from his clothing than licked the stain to try and make it go away, tasting a little wine in the process. How do irrelevant positive answers like that get accounted for in this "survey"? I bet the results include many similar false responses.

The "survey" is dangerous as it has projected ideas into young minds that otherwise they had not been aware of. My son, and now his sibling, having been introduced to "sniffing glue" via the "survey", think the idea of it is funny. My wife and I have educated them of the danger in response but how about households that may not have that communication? Even though we have taught our kids of the danger I'm guessing next opportunity with glue the kids will think it a joke to play "Hey look at me I'm sniffing glue! Ha, ha!"

I know we cant shelter kids from the darker realities of the world but its dangerous to expose them to ideas in some useless "survey" than not educate them to the danger or leave their innocent imaginations to explore on their own.

I think the way this "survey" was done will result in no statistically valid information and it is reckless in not considering the consequences for the kids.

I am upset by my public service providers for even thinking this has value and not being more aware before presenting it.

I guess from her mass response others are giving her flak.....

Dear Gibbs Families,

I wanted to reach out and say that as always, I appreciate feedback from the parent community around the recent YRBS given at Gibbs. It is how we grow and change. I also appreciate the feedback that was clearly framed in a way to help achieve that growth and change. I also would like to reiterate that I am sorry you did not see the survey and have the chance to opt out. That said, I also hope that my frequent and detailed communications with you this year around your sixth graders would testify how much importance I place on being transparent and focusing on social emotional wellness at Gibbs.

Know that while I may not have responded to all of the individual emails that I have received, I read each of them and am in the process of compiling reasons why some families are in favor of the survey and some families are not. This will help me inform a process that was clearly flawed this year. I hope that you can also know that I will work with the necessary stakeholders to communicate additional information out to the community as it becomes more available.

Have a good evening,


We will be ignored in the end.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Move or Home School, or Both.

 

[sandwarrior]

I think I would have put a whole lot more “fuck you” in my letter to her. The snippets of the survey you’ve shown have ZERO purpose at that level except to stir shit and intentionally give kids wrong ideas.

 

[cornhusker86]

I wonder what her definition of flawed is. I'm struggling to form an image of the " families " that thought the survey was a good idea.

 

[sandwarrior]

Move or Home School, or Both.

No, go to the school and take them fuckers head on. No physical threatening, but you look them in the eyes and make sure they understand you ain’t backing off.

 

[ArmyJerry]

you live in a blast zone , move.

 

[Scarface26]

Here's some reading links for those who aren't up to looking for it:

Sniper shortage: Too many Marines are washing out of sniper school

The Marine Corps is facing a “critical gap” of scout snipers due to the high washout rates during training, so the Corps is looking at changes to how the elite snipers are trained.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The sniper shortfall: Why the Corps could lose its next urban fight

The Corps says it only has 150 sergeants and below holding the coveted 0317 scout sniper job field.

www.marinecorpstimes.com

The one SW is talking about in the OP: https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/ne...testing-a-proof-of-concept-for-scout-snipers/

On the training side of things, the land nav has always been one of the biggest attrition elements of school ever since we switched to the 175 SMK, which co-occurred with GPS becoming common usage in the Marine Corps. The shooting portion got way easier with the more accurate ammunition, but squad level usage of GPS ruined the core fundamentals of land navigation. Until then, a line company had one PLGR allocated to them and there were no affordable handheld GPS options for people to buy themselves, then all the sudden Garmin units were available for $200 and the damn things were in every grunt's deuce gear. Commanders stopped accepting anything other than a GPS grid, especially for calling in fires due to past catastrophic errors that resulted in sweeping changes, so the practice of map and compass navigation became next to nil. That I blame on the Corps and Pentagon as a whole, as when these young Marines get to a STA Platoon they don't have the learning base to lean upon to ensure success when they hit SSBC and mere possession of a GPS anytime in the school is an integrity violation and immediate droppable offense. When my platoon started taking land nav drops, we immediately scheduled two weeks of dedicated navigation training for all upcoming students before they went to school.

Back to shooting, I'm clueless as to why marksmanship is such a killer in school today. When AA11/M118LR replaced the old M118 SB, marksmanship drops in school became nearly unheard of, and stalking took sole reign for #1 PIG killer in school in the late 90s to early 2000s. I know the UKD qual is a killer, but that is less from marksmanship and more from lack of range est training, an easily teachable skill. With today's weapons and optics, combined with vastly greater knowledge of ballistics, I honestly just don't fucking get how they are doing worse than we did with 173gr special ball out of an M40A1 and near zero drop charts other than our SWAG drops we were using. For fuck's sake, we still were using a "One minute change per 20°F shift from zero" mentality for adjustment of environmental changes, and were taught more humidity made air MORE dense.

I know the training and incredible instructor base is there, the science and equipment is leaps and bounds better than ever, and that just makes me think the raw student product of today's young generation is turning into shit. I struggle to accept that, every time I hear bitching about millennials, they surprise the hell out of me by doing some seriously badass shit. But maybe the biggest section of those who are good are the ones who also aren't joining. The fact DoD became nothing more than a liberal social experiment from '09-'17 cannot be ignored, as I certainly wouldn't want to play that bullshit these days.

I don't care where Marines come from before the Corps, as I've had high shooters in school who never touched a rifle before joining, and I've had a city boy Boston Southie take high stalker. I sent one 5'2" kid two weeks out of SOI to school and thought he had absolutely zero chance of making it past week one, and he graduated. Heart and drive is all success requires, whether in college, business, or in Scout Sniper School, and it's the one thing that can't be taught past puberty.

For what it's worth coming from an officer, I think much of what's in this thread is spot on, but I think the root question hasn't been addressed and that's why would a guy who volunteers for an 11 series MOS NOT want to be a sniper? I believe the answer lies in the myriad of BS requirements that the O fails to filter. BTW, that IS his job - ensure the Gunny or SFC has the time needed to train his guys and maintain his (YOUR) equipment. Smokescreens, "look over here's," etc., are but a few examples. If the alert happens and you're up on diversity, but you can only fly 4 out of ten aircraft, well, maybe you can scream at the enemy that "diversity is the spice of life."

I never thought I was going to do the transgender fun run while readiness was in the tank. Guys need to be doing the MOS stuff, not diversity training, and an S1 Marine or soldier needs SERE school like I need Elton John tickets.

BS like this helps great soldiers and Marines find the exit. Also, having NCO's (in one unit Staff Sergeant and below) live in the barracks and eat at the chow hall while the pregnant LCPL gets her own house and separate rations is a slap in the face of any notion of fairness and the meritocracy the services are supposed to be. It really stuck in my craw that I had Marines who were responsible for signing off on the airworthiness of aircraft who had to live in the barracks with a roomie and field day on Saturday while the aforementioned teammates get to sleep in. It should come as no surprise when the home run hitter decides he can make five times as much as a contractor and put up with none of the BS.

IMO a fish rots from the head down. Too many schools and not enough combat for officers. Too many meetings and not enough leadership. Why does an officer need a master's degree? How's an MBA gonna help you maneuver at BN level? It doesn't. Either man up and stay or man up and go on to an exciting career in ... whatever. Forgive the disjointed rant, but I believe this is a leadership failure or indicates one and NOT at the Staff NCO level.

S/F and God bless America,

Scarface 26

 

[pmclaine]

For what it's worth coming from an officer, I think much of what's in this thread is spot on, but I think the root question hasn't been addressed and that's why would a guy who volunteers for an 11 series MOS NOT want to be a sniper? I believe the answer lies in the myriad of BS requirements that the O fails to filter. BTW, that IS his job - ensure the Gunny or SFC has the time needed to train his guys and maintain his (YOUR) equipment. Smokescreens, "look over here's," etc., are but a few examples. If the alert happens and you're up on diversity, but you can only fly 4 out of ten aircraft, well, maybe you can scream at the enemy that "diversity is the spice of life."

I never thought I was going to do the transgender fun run while readiness was in the tank. Guys need to be doing the MOS stuff, not diversity training, and an S1 Marine or soldier needs SERE school like I need Elton John tickets.

BS like this helps great soldiers and Marines find the exit. Also, having NCO's (in one unit Staff Sergeant and below) live in the barracks and eat at the chow hall while the pregnant LCPL gets her own house and separate rations is a slap in the face of any notion of fairness and the meritocracy the services are supposed to be. It really stuck in my craw that I had Marines who were responsible for signing off on the airworthiness of aircraft who had to live in the barracks with a roomie and field day on Saturday while the aforementioned teammates get to sleep in. It should come as no surprise when the home run hitter decides he can make five times as much as a contractor and put up with none of the BS.

IMO a fish rots from the head down. Too many schools and not enough combat for officers. Too many meetings and not enough leadership. Why does an officer need a master's degree? How's an MBA gonna help you maneuver at BN level? It doesn't. Either man up and stay or man up and go on to an exciting career in ... whatever. Forgive the disjointed rant, but I believe this is a leadership failure or indicates one and NOT at the Staff NCO level.

S/F and God bless America,

Scarface 26

Officers are capable of rational thought and the perspective is appreciated.

I went in guaranteed 03. In fact double guaranteed 03.

I told my recruiter what I wanted - rifleman - but he kind of tried to screw me.

The morning I was at MEPs sitting with the contract officer going over everything I saw that I was Combat Arms.

The big menu said that was infantry as well as Tanks, amtraks, artillery.

I saw another contract that was 03 only.

I told him put me in the 03 only category or I wasnt going.

So that got me guaranteed one of 4 MOS's starting with 03.

I ended up 0351 which I learned meant the ASVAB geeks get to pack extra weight.

SO I was about as Gung Ho as could be but what ruins it was learning 03 meant being a cleaning lady - cleaning rifles, cleaning HMMWVs, cleaning the barracks - doing just about everything other than going to the fireld or doing "Marine Stuff"...than before a 96 or liberty having to clean shit and being screwed with to the point you thought you would miss your flight or whatever.

That was just an experience in one unit over 30 years ago though.

It doesnt speak to today.

 

[ArmyJerry]

why are you here?

For what it's worth coming from an officer, I think much of what's in this thread is spot on, but I think the root question hasn't been addressed and that's why would a guy who volunteers for an 11 series MOS NOT want to be a sniper? I believe the answer lies in the myriad of BS requirements that the O fails to filter. BTW, that IS his job - ensure the Gunny or SFC has the time needed to train his guys and maintain his (YOUR) equipment. Smokescreens, "look over here's," etc., are but a few examples. If the alert happens and you're up on diversity, but you can only fly 4 out of ten aircraft, well, maybe you can scream at the enemy that "diversity is the spice of life."

I never thought I was going to do the transgender fun run while readiness was in the tank. Guys need to be doing the MOS stuff, not diversity training, and an S1 Marine or soldier needs SERE school like I need Elton John tickets.

BS like this helps great soldiers and Marines find the exit. Also, having NCO's (in one unit Staff Sergeant and below) live in the barracks and eat at the chow hall while the pregnant LCPL gets her own house and separate rations is a slap in the face of any notion of fairness and the meritocracy the services are supposed to be. It really stuck in my craw that I had Marines who were responsible for signing off on the airworthiness of aircraft who had to live in the barracks with a roomie and field day on Saturday while the aforementioned teammates get to sleep in. It should come as no surprise when the home run hitter decides he can make five times as much as a contractor and put up with none of the BS.

IMO a fish rots from the head down. Too many schools and not enough combat for officers. Too many meetings and not enough leadership. Why does an officer need a master's degree? How's an MBA gonna help you maneuver at BN level? It doesn't. Either man up and stay or man up and go on to an exciting career in ... whatever. Forgive the disjointed rant, but I believe this is a leadership failure or indicates one and NOT at the Staff NCO level.

S/F and God bless America,

Scarface 26

 

[sandwarrior]

why are you here?

Because up to a certain level, officers participate in sniper training too, Army.

 

[Scarface26]

Because up to a certain level, officers participate in sniper training too, Army.

AJ, as to why I’m here, as a former 7565, if I can touch it with my aircraft radios, it affects me and my unit. It directly affects me if the guy in the STA platoon has his feces in one sock when he’s giving me a six-line and “sparkles.” As an aside, I hope “sparkle” means the same to you as it does to me - J-CAS term, not something that happens in CA. Unless its at a CAX.

I’m not sniper qualified so forgive me if my contribution on this thread is out of line. Briefly, but probably not briefly enough, I served as an aviator in both Army and Marine (last assignment) squadrons. I was fortunate to have two CO’s who believed “every Marine a rifleman,” even though one of them was Army. If you couldn’t shoot you were on the chopping block- hence my interest in marksmanship. The expectation was that if you got shot down or had to land due to mechanical malfunction, that you would fall in (seamlessly) on whatever ground unit came to your rescue and not be a clownshow/yardsale/danger to the guys who came to save you. Furthermore, both of the aforementioned CO’s made the statement, “F*** fun. We have “fun” in that we do a difficult job well, and we get to serve with other professionals, but we’re not here for our enjoyment.”

I chimed in here because I witnessed a mass exodus from both the Army and the Marine Corps in the late 2000’s. Almost to a man these guys got out because they were doing other BS to the expense of their jobs. Furthermore, just when they were getting good at their job, they either had to go to a school or take some assignment “for their career.” This is for both O’s and E’s, guys who would rather stay in Iraq or Afghanistan than enhance their career. I love the Army and I love the Marine Corps which is why I get upset over stuff like this. Almost to a man the guys I served with were there for noble reasons, NOT for the college money, and NOT to learn a skill they could parlay into a profitable career in civilian life.

@Redmanss is correct about the land nav bit. It’s the same in aviation. With the exception of comms and sophisticated weapons - like Hellfire - if you can’t plan, brief, and get to the objective area with pencil and paper, map, compass, and timex, you need to train some basics.

IMO the contributors here who appear to have been NCO’s covered a LOT of bases on why candidates fail to complete training. I intended my contribution to indicate that this issue is not confined to the SS, DM, or 11 and 19 series MOS’s, but is a problem among all combat arms. Not every millennial is a POS.

Furthermore, I believe that the reason this problem exists is that leadership is willfully ignorant of the level of training required to maintain proficiency in combat arms METL tasks. In order to correct the deficiencies in the above posts, senior leadership HAS to drop the diversity and sensitivity garbage. To be blunt, the 0311 and the 11B (and aviation) have made a significant (bigger than the CSS MOS's) commitment and should be rewarded with the time and resources required to do their job. Guys sign up because they want to be a part of something bigger than themselves, they want to “be all they can be,” and be one of “a few good men.” They want to shoot, lift, run, fight, train, and do all these things in crazy places. If they can’t complete the school, and they didn’t quit, they’re not properly prepared. My guess is that a multiple volunteer is sufficiently motivated to succeed, he just needs more training on certain things, and way less, if any on others.

@pmclaine, sorry to hear about your child’s school being so messed up. If you ever decide to move to SE OK, where a tranny is the thing between the engine and the driveshaft, look me up. I'd pay good money just to look at the rifles you posted.

To all, thanks for your service.

S/F and God bless America

 

[ArmyJerry]

By participate, you mean cancel programs?

Because up to a certain level, officers participate in sniper training too, Army.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Just poking at ya scarface.

 

[Scarface26]

Just poking at ya scarface.

No sweat. Just don't sparkle for anything not related to ordnance delivery.

 

[pmclaine]

AJ, as to why I’m here, as a former 7565, if I can touch it with my aircraft radios, it affects me and my unit. It directly affects me if the guy in the STA platoon has his feces in one sock when he’s giving me a six-line and “sparkles.” As an aside, I hope “sparkle” means the same to you as it does to me - J-CAS term, not something that happens in CA. Unless its at a CAX.

I’m not sniper qualified so forgive me if my contribution on this thread is out of line. Briefly, but probably not briefly enough, I served as an aviator in both Army and Marine (last assignment) squadrons. I was fortunate to have two CO’s who believed “every Marine a rifleman,” even though one of them was Army. If you couldn’t shoot you were on the chopping block- hence my interest in marksmanship. The expectation was that if you got shot down or had to land due to mechanical malfunction, that you would fall in (seamlessly) on whatever ground unit came to your rescue and not be a clownshow/yardsale/danger to the guys who came to save you. Furthermore, both of the aforementioned CO’s made the statement, “F*** fun. We have “fun” in that we do a difficult job well, and we get to serve with other professionals, but we’re not here for our enjoyment.”

I chimed in here because I witnessed a mass exodus from both the Army and the Marine Corps in the late 2000’s. Almost to a man these guys got out because they were doing other BS to the expense of their jobs. Furthermore, just when they were getting good at their job, they either had to go to a school or take some assignment “for their career.” This is for both O’s and E’s, guys who would rather stay in Iraq or Afghanistan than enhance their career. I love the Army and I love the Marine Corps which is why I get upset over stuff like this. Almost to a man the guys I served with were there for noble reasons, NOT for the college money, and NOT to learn a skill they could parlay into a profitable career in civilian life.

@Redmanss is correct about the land nav bit. It’s the same in aviation. With the exception of comms and sophisticated weapons - like Hellfire - if you can’t plan, brief, and get to the objective area with pencil and paper, map, compass, and timex, you need to train some basics.

IMO the contributors here who appear to have been NCO’s covered a LOT of bases on why candidates fail to complete training. I intended my contribution to indicate that this issue is not confined to the SS, DM, or 11 and 19 series MOS’s, but is a problem among all combat arms. Not every millennial is a POS.

Furthermore, I believe that the reason this problem exists is that leadership is willfully ignorant of the level of training required to maintain proficiency in combat arms METL tasks. In order to correct the deficiencies in the above posts, senior leadership HAS to drop the diversity and sensitivity garbage. To be blunt, the 0311 and the 11B (and aviation) have made a significant (bigger than the CSS MOS's) commitment and should be rewarded with the time and resources required to do their job. Guys sign up because they want to be a part of something bigger than themselves, they want to “be all they can be,” and be one of “a few good men.” They want to shoot, lift, run, fight, train, and do all these things in crazy places. If they can’t complete the school, and they didn’t quit, they’re not properly prepared. My guess is that a multiple volunteer is sufficiently motivated to succeed, he just needs more training on certain things, and way less, if any on others.

@pmclaine, sorry to hear about your child’s school being so messed up. If you ever decide to move to SE OK, where a tranny is the thing between the engine and the driveshaft, look me up. I'd pay good money just to look at the rifles you posted.

To all, thanks for your service.

S/F and God bless America

I don't think @ArmyJerry was being serious with you.....

 

[pmclaine]

My bad.

I see you guys exchanged phone numbers on a matchbook.....you two are cute together.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Since we have O whateverthefuck hanging out

 

[sandwarrior]

By participate, you mean cancel programs?

No, those are the people above him that Scarface mentioned, “enhanced their careers”.

 

[sandwarrior]

AJ, as to why I’m here, as a former 7565, if I can touch it with my aircraft radios, it affects me and my unit. It directly affects me if the guy in the STA platoon has his feces in one sock when he’s giving me a six-line and “sparkles.” As an aside, I hope “sparkle” means the same to you as it does to me - J-CAS term, not something that happens in CA. Unless its at a CAX.

I’m not sniper qualified so forgive me if my contribution on this thread is out of line. Briefly, but probably not briefly enough, I served as an aviator in both Army and Marine (last assignment) squadrons. I was fortunate to have two CO’s who believed “every Marine a rifleman,” even though one of them was Army. If you couldn’t shoot you were on the chopping block- hence my interest in marksmanship. The expectation was that if you got shot down or had to land due to mechanical malfunction, that you would fall in (seamlessly) on whatever ground unit came to your rescue and not be a clownshow/yardsale/danger to the guys who came to save you. Furthermore, both of the aforementioned CO’s made the statement, “F*** fun. We have “fun” in that we do a difficult job well, and we get to serve with other professionals, but we’re not here for our enjoyment.”

I chimed in here because I witnessed a mass exodus from both the Army and the Marine Corps in the late 2000’s. Almost to a man these guys got out because they were doing other BS to the expense of their jobs. Furthermore, just when they were getting good at their job, they either had to go to a school or take some assignment “for their career.” This is for both O’s and E’s, guys who would rather stay in Iraq or Afghanistan than enhance their career. I love the Army and I love the Marine Corps which is why I get upset over stuff like this. Almost to a man the guys I served with were there for noble reasons, NOT for the college money, and NOT to learn a skill they could parlay into a profitable career in civilian life.

@Redmanss is correct about the land nav bit. It’s the same in aviation. With the exception of comms and sophisticated weapons - like Hellfire - if you can’t plan, brief, and get to the objective area with pencil and paper, map, compass, and timex, you need to train some basics.

IMO the contributors here who appear to have been NCO’s covered a LOT of bases on why candidates fail to complete training. I intended my contribution to indicate that this issue is not confined to the SS, DM, or 11 and 19 series MOS’s, but is a problem among all combat arms. Not every millennial is a POS.

Furthermore, I believe that the reason this problem exists is that leadership is willfully ignorant of the level of training required to maintain proficiency in combat arms METL tasks. In order to correct the deficiencies in the above posts, senior leadership HAS to drop the diversity and sensitivity garbage. To be blunt, the 0311 and the 11B (and aviation) have made a significant (bigger than the CSS MOS's) commitment and should be rewarded with the time and resources required to do their job. Guys sign up because they want to be a part of something bigger than themselves, they want to “be all they can be,” and be one of “a few good men.” They want to shoot, lift, run, fight, train, and do all these things in crazy places. If they can’t complete the school, and they didn’t quit, they’re not properly prepared. My guess is that a multiple volunteer is sufficiently motivated to succeed, he just needs more training on certain things, and way less, if any on others.

@pmclaine, sorry to hear about your child’s school being so messed up. If you ever decide to move to SE OK, where a tranny is the thing between the engine and the driveshaft, look me up. I'd pay good money just to look at the rifles you posted.

To all, thanks for your service.

S/F and God bless America

I can’t say how well I think you hit many a nail on the head with that post. Thank you for that.

 

[sleeplz]

Scarface, your post mirrors mine since the first things that I posted. There are people that wanted to blame the youths right out, but if you look at the root of the problem, it's the people up top that don't set the right conditions. Death by powerpoint for classes filled with sign-in sheets take priority over fighting tasks. The same backlash I got on here is why I stopped speaking out at my unit. There's an old man mentality of, "back in the day we did this," only followed by trudging along with BS tasks.

Someone on this forum stated that youth's staring at their phone is a problem, yet stated that they got the article of marines from THEIR OWN phone!!! Oh, the IRONY. Very few can lead by example, many can talk by example.

 

[ArmyJerry]

An office shows up here and we get a kissass fest,,, meh, Scarface ypu make good points but dam there is value in brevity.

 

[pmclaine]

Scarface, your post mirrors mine since the first things that I posted. There are people that wanted to blame the youths right out, but if you look at the root of the problem, it's the people up top that don't set the right conditions. Death by powerpoint for classes filled with sign-in sheets take priority over fighting tasks. The same backlash I got on here is why I stopped speaking out at my unit. There's an old man mentality of, "back in the day we did this," only followed by trudging along with BS tasks.

Someone on this forum stated that youth's staring at their phone is a problem, yet stated that they got the article of marines from THEIR OWN phone!!! Oh, the IRONY. Very few can lead by example, many can talk by example.

You are convincing me.

Many of my coworkers are high ranking guard NCOs (and a share are Commissioned).

The SFC and such bemoan the constant barrage of BS that breaks morale among the troops.

 

[Scarface26]

An office shows up here and we get a kissass fest,,, meh, Scarface ypu make good points but dam there is value in brevity.

AJ, when you're right, you're right. I'll try to be more organized next try.

God bless America

 

[ArmyJerry]

Good post though SF. I am normally as wordy, exception is the hide

 

[Spicerack]

Another officer perspective here (kinda - CWO)... my experience as a Det OIC for a reserve unit leads me to believe that there is a short on qualified Marines. Period. We'd get Marines fresh out of school that didn't have driver's licenses, much less a car or any clue on how to find a regular paying job or a plan on how they would support themselves. The handful SNCO's and I were father/mother figures to these kids who many had zero coping skills. Some calls I got were on how their first thought is suicide when their gf/bf breaks up with them or some other simple fact of how life can suck. I blame the recruitment process and the high stress it puts on making mission, so those dudes take anyone who they can if the recruiters can figure out how to hide the candidate's inadequacies.

The SNCO's and NCO's I worked for were simply awesome. We did a really good job at mentoring and fostering the right mindset in the young Marines, and it was very rewarding. It was a lot of effort since we saw these kids only two days out of the month. The active duty side would be much easier to teach the skills since they had daily interaction. But DAMN was it frustrating sometimes when we kept getting the same product out of MOS school.

So much for brevity, sorry AJ.

Semper Fidelis,
Aaron

 

[pmclaine]

Another officer perspective here (kinda - CWO)... my experience as a Det OIC for a reserve unit leads me to believe that there is a short on qualified Marines. Period. We'd get Marines fresh out of school that didn't have driver's licenses, much less a car or any clue on how to find a regular paying job or a plan on how they would support themselves. The handful SNCO's and I were father/mother figures to these kids who many had zero coping skills. Some calls I got were on how their first thought is suicide when their gf/bf breaks up with them or some other simple fact of how life can suck. I blame the recruitment process and the high stress it puts on making mission, so those dudes take anyone who they can if the recruiters can figure out how to hide the candidate's inadequacies.

The SNCO's and NCO's I worked for were simply awesome. We did a really good job at mentoring and fostering the right mindset in the young Marines, and it was very rewarding. It was a lot of effort since we saw these kids only two days out of the month. The active duty side would be much easier to teach the skills since they had daily interaction. But DAMN was it frustrating sometimes when we kept getting the same product out of MOS school.

So much for brevity, sorry AJ.

Semper Fidelis,
Aaron

I went to ITS (now SOI) in the pay telephone era.

I remember standing outside the booth, a dude form NJ talking to his girlfriend.

Conversation, the only side I could hear, in the line of ten or so of us was our fellow boot.....



"So what do you mean you went out with him?"

"So what happened?"

"Did he fuck you?"

"He only went down on you?"

"What did you do to him?"

"Did he come in you?"




It was disturbing but the dude took the full brunt of the heart punch, brushed it off, and was probably banging the wife of a Marine on float next liberty.