Gunsmithing Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

[Gene Poole]

Seems like a lot to pay for a chunk of metal that I'll probably only use once. It seems like you should be able to just lathe one out to SAAMI specs pretty easily, but what are the tolerances for go, no-go, and field compared to SAAMI? Anywhere to find this info?

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

It's even easier than that if you're doing this for yourself.

Get a piece of new, unfired brass as your Go... cut it 0.001-0.003 deeper than that piece of brass and you'll be fine

The amount of time you're going to spend cutting one just doesn't "pencil out" compared to the $30 thata go gauge costs IMO.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

Guess I just don't understand why/how people can justify the cost of a $300+ barrel blank, $140+ if they buy a piloted reamer and other expensive chit but then want a 'cheap' means of measuring CORRECT chamber depth. That measurement alone if done correctly can save or cost more dollars in brass in the first 100rds of shooting then the damn correct guage costs. 100 rds of new brass in almost any caliber anymore is more than a go or no go guage. Also new brass length can vary .010 or more from different manufacturers, lots etc.

Guess it just must be me? Hell, you can usually resell the guage on any forum within hrs if you price it $10 less than you pd! So for $10 is it really worth the hassle, safety, fuss and expense? I usually only work for myself and have went the 'new brass' route if I never had guage in hand. Always end up doing them over correctly as I cut mine to zero to at the most .001 over and the correct guage is the only way to get there!!!

Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's even easier than that if you're doing this for yourself.

Get a piece of new, unfired brass as your Go... cut it 0.001-0.003 deeper than that piece of brass and you'll be fine...</div></div>

I think this is terrible advice.

I am cool with a piece of tape on a go-gage to "make" a nogo, but brass isn't a HS gage.

In a serious pinch, it would work, but a precision rifle should be headspaced with a precision gage, not a piece of brass.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

Another thought:

I use my go-gages all the time to zero my caliper (fitted with HS inserts) to size brass properly.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

And to directly answer the OPs question:

Yes, you can make your own, but it's not as easy to make one that is exactly correct...

1. How are you to know you've got the shoulder angle machined correctly? You can't simply adjust the compound on your lathe to the appropriate angle for the cartridge in question. Sure, it'll be close, but is "close" what you want in your precision-built rifle?

2. What methodology would you follow to measure from the datum ring (.400" for 308 family) to the base? I suspect you'd need to make an insert with a hole bored to .400"...another part to make.

My time is valuable enough that I can confidently say I'd be "losing money" making an accurate HS gage rather than spending $30 buying one.

 

[colchester]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gene Poole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seems like a lot to pay for a chunk of metal that I'll probably only use once. It seems like you should be able to just lathe one out to SAAMI specs pretty easily, but what are the tolerances for go, no-go, and field compared to SAAMI? Anywhere to find this info?</div></div>

The go gauge is handy to keep around. It can be used later to set resizing dies, set the chamber up .001 over the go and set the sizer up right on the go. Now you will get a consistant .001" move on the shoulder when you resize. Im sure the gauge could be made but as mentioned its cheap enough, and probably not a good place to skimp. I would be concerned about producing a "bastardized" H/S if your not starting from a known point with a correct gauge.

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

You all bring up good points, but I'm looking at this as an inspection criteria to determine the condition of a used rifle, not from the standpoint of a smith. But, as mentioned, resale would make the cost negligible, so point taken. I'll just buy what I need.

 

[Clark]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

I made a headspace gauge for measuring Mosin Nagant receiver clocking.

The thickness of the rim on the gauge is that of a case rim plus the pitch of one thread turn on the barrel. That is so the rim of the gauge can touch the barrel before the extractor interferes with the barrel.

Every Mosin Nagant receiver seems to clock differently.

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's even easier than that if you're doing this for yourself.

Get a piece of new, unfired brass as your Go... cut it 0.001-0.003 deeper than that piece of brass and you'll be fine...</div></div>

I think this is terrible advice.

I am cool with a piece of tape on a go-gage to "make" a nogo, but brass isn't a HS gage.

In a serious pinch, it would work, but a precision rifle should be headspaced with a precision gage, not a piece of brass.

</div></div>

How do you think the original Ackley chambers were cut? Back when custom gunmakers built their own reamers as well, they headspaced to a piece of brass.

Gauges were an invention of mass production.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

bohem
I have found a few rounds of new factory brass up to .010 under a full length sized case. If you were referring to my comment it was in regards to NEW brass being too SHORT and not too LONG! Also not all manufacturers sell consistent new brass all made to the same length. Variance in tolerances between shell holders, dies, brands etc etc leave the 'using new brass' a very questionable practice. New forming dies are made to minimum tolerance with wear allownance for thousands of rounds until they reach maximum allowed. Do you know or can guarantee how much that tolerance is now or down the road? Can you guarantee there was nothing under the head of a new case when it was drawn/formed that may have allowed it to form .010 short?? Never say never, especially in high production manufacturing and tolerances!

Now with that said, you can do ANYTHING for yourself!!! However, giving that advice on a public forum IS NOT good and safe advice!!!! Period!!!

Perhaps you weren't here or don't remember a few years back when a young knowitall that went by 'critter capper' held a screwdriver while a friend machinist built him a rifle. He then proceeded to give stupid advice, one of which was "use a piece of new brass, I did" to anyone inquiring about proper or correct headspacing that was too cheap to buy a guage. Told me, George @ GAP, Al Nyhus(a serious BR shooter), Alan Brown from Crane and a couple others we were all stupid and to F off. Think that was about the final straw of his being banned. Have never seen him post since unless he has a new attitude and handle.

So my point is do whatever the hell you wish to your own stuff but please do not give that advice on shooting forums for safety sake. Too many what ifs and tolerances with die and brass manufacturers etc to GUARANTEE a safe rig! Also my line of thinking is if I 'do something for myself' and I croak where will those rigs end up and in whos hands? Would surely suck to have a family member or friend injured because they weren't there when you 'saved a few bucks'!!!!

Just sayin and my sayin don't mean much here anymore I have found amongest the 'new generation'!

Respectfully,
Dennis

 

[turbo54]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

After thinking about this some more...

The only real issue in using brass for a HS gage, is you really don't know what youve got, NOT that the rifle would be inaccurate or unsafe in the hands of a somewhat experienced handloader.

If you use a 308 reamer to cut a chamber, for example, but HS it with brass, you don't necessarily have a 308 chamber. It may be short, it may be long. It'll be a 308BI (Bohem Improvised) chamber. SAAMI compliant 308 may or may not fit the chamber.

You could greatly increase the chance of SAAMI compliance by using a piece of brass fired from a known good rifle with minimum HS.

Bottom line:

I might chamber a barrel in this way for myself or a friend that KNEW what he was doing at the loading bench. However, can we agree it would be UNCOOL to sell a rifle as a 308, when it is actually a 308BI???

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The only real issue in using brass for a HS gage, is you really don't know what youve got, NOT that the rifle would be inaccurate or unsafe in the hands of a somewhat experienced handloader.</div></div>

Correct.

The purpose of steel gauges are to ensure interchangability to known standards.

 

[ugsly]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

Head Space gauges are very inexpensive compared to the equipment you have to ream the chamber. Buy the go gauge at least, Its not worth your time to make one. Unless its something you really want to do.

Kc

 

[Clark]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ..they headspaced to a piece of brass.
</div></div>

I try to straighten things out, but if you are going to straighten SH out, I don't need to be here.

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bottom line:

I might chamber a barrel in this way for myself or a friend that KNEW what he was doing at the loading bench. However, can we agree it would be UNCOOL to sell a rifle as a 308, when it is actually a 308BI??? </div></div>

Heh, I like that. 308BI.

Glad someone else gets it.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bottom line:

I might chamber a barrel in this way for myself or a friend that KNEW what he was doing at the loading bench. However, can we agree it would be UNCOOL to sell a rifle as a 308, when it is actually a 308BI??? </div></div>

Heh, I like that. 308BI.

Glad someone else gets it. The OP is asking about building himself a rifle as I understand it so I don't see any issue.


Clark, very good point. I deleted my post previous noting the faulty reasoning in Whirlwind's post.

Mr. Whirlwind- I suggest you take a hard look at your example as it only serves to support my position even more and demonstrate that strict adherence to a gauge is not necessarily safer.

From the 'new generation' to the 'stuck in their ways and aren't willing to think instead of just lather/rinse/repeat'...

Good night. </div></div>

Guess about the only thing I get from your comments is you have issues with my suggesting you NOT recommend using anything other than the correct and safe tools when posting on the net!

The only "example" I was trying to make was to NOT recommend using a "piece of brass" as a measuring device, don't have a clue what you took from my posts but that was my ONLY intent, PERIOD!

Not once did I "SUPPORT" your position! I guess than insinuating that being safe is "stuck in their ways and aren't willing to think" than I will submit and say your way is best but only to keep your ego intact and to hell with safety! Apparently being "stuck in their ways" when it comes to the only safe way bothers you? You apparently are of the 'new generation' whom have issues with admitting that you may be incorrect or blantantly wrong, pretty common attitude around here anymore!

You are free to do whatever the hell you wish with your own shit but that don't make it right to recommend others do unsafe shit to save a few bucks. Now once again I am done with this BS, whinning and ego shit!!!! One day I will be smart enough like some of the other old bastards and just no longer log in or post here, seems everyone knows everything anyways!

Not gonna argue with someone on the net and definetly not with someone whos ego won't allow them to admit fault. Done with this deal!

 

[vonbalkenbush]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

More folks than Bohem have chambered a precision rifle off a piece of brass. Just finished spinning up a new barrel for my 6XC on a piece of Norma brass. It shoots in the 0.2's and 0.3's at 100 and under a half out to 1k. My only problem with Whirlwinds argument is that he can give no example of where anyone has ever been hurt by this practice. Only hypothetical situations where people might get hurt. You can "what if" just about anything in life, but until it's been proven to get people hurt on a consistent basis, I see no reason why the OP should not have this method of chambering shared with him. It's still his choice whether or not to do it, and his fault if he cuts a chamber too deep using this method and hurts himself with a case head separation. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? We are all adults here, sharing information does not make you responsible for someone else's improper use or application of that information.

-SBS

 

[Rprecision]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

Crafty machining and smithing aside,

To answer the OP's question, Why wouldnt you want a good headspace gauge. A precision ground steal gauuge will out last you and for most they are give or take $40.00.

I belive having the proper tools to measure headspace is critical for smithing and handy as hell as a shooter.

And just to be clear, I understand budgets, but if your sweating a headspace gauge it might be time to rethink this hobby.

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

Redacted. Nothing to see here.

 

[Gene Poole]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

Wow. I didn't mean to stir up such a shit storm. I'm just trying to, say, quickly check a used 300 BLK of unknown build to see if it's in spec. It'd take days to get one shipped assuming you can find one in stock.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bottom line:

I might chamber a barrel in this way for myself or a friend that KNEW what he was doing at the loading bench. However, can we agree it would be UNCOOL to sell a rifle as a 308, when it is actually a 308BI??? </div></div>

Heh, I like that. 308BI.

Glad someone else gets it. The OP is asking about building himself a rifle as I understand it so I don't see any issue.


Clark, very good point. I deleted my post previous noting the faulty reasoning in Whirlwind's post.

Mr. Whirlwind- I suggest you take a hard look at your example as it only serves to support my position even more and demonstrate that strict adherence to a gauge is not necessarily safer.

From the 'new generation' to the 'stuck in their ways and aren't willing to think instead of just lather/rinse/repeat'...

Good night. </div></div>

Guess about the only thing I get from your comments is you have issues with my suggesting you NOT recommend using anything other than the correct and safe tools when posting on the net!

The only "example" I was trying to make was to NOT recommend using a "piece of brass" as a measuring device, don't have a clue what you took from my posts but that was my ONLY intent, PERIOD!

Not once did I "SUPPORT" your position! I guess than insinuating that being safe is "stuck in their ways and aren't willing to think" than I will submit and say your way is best but only to keep your ego intact and to hell with safety! Apparently being "stuck in their ways" when it comes to the only safe way bothers you? You apparently are of the 'new generation' whom have issues with admitting that you may be incorrect or blantantly wrong, pretty common attitude around here anymore!

You are free to do whatever the hell you wish with your own shit but that don't make it right to recommend others do unsafe shit to save a few bucks. Now once again I am done with this BS, whinning and ego shit!!!! One day I will be smart enough like some of the other old bastards and just no longer log in or post here, seems everyone knows everything anyways!

Not gonna argue with someone on the net and definetly not with someone whos ego won't allow them to admit fault. Done with this deal! </div></div>

I'll spell this out clearly and 1 last time.

Your example of using an undersized piece of brass that is an anomaly supports my argument. Your arguments are so flawed and your understanding is backwards that you can't make the connection that you're actually providing hypothetical summations that debase your argument.

Here it is, plain and simple.

You don't understand the geometry in question like you think you do.

</div></div>

Utterly amazing how some think their knowledge and intelligence is far superior to a stranger they have never met and base their opinion on a couple of miscomprehended sentences!!!! I think the word narcassist comes to mind, it isn't my fault I don't understand the point the other guy was/is trying to make, that being safety!!! I don't give a rats ass how well a rifle shoots being headspaced with a "new piece of brass", that was not the point in my comments. Holy shit, nothing like trying to justify a safety concern with an accuracy arguement! Like I said I am done, tain't nothing I have said that will absorb or soak into those who think they are right and too much ego to admit otherwise. The hilarious part is the 'IT SHOOTS IN THE TWO'S SO IT CAN'T BE BAD'!!! So sad it is actually humorous! I give up, too old and stupid to try and communicate with the younger knowitalls!

Another Holy Shit, my reference to undersize brass was ONLY to convey the potential for a way undersize chamber because a piece of brass was far undersized. If no way to measure accurately new brass how the hell do you know where you are?? I was making a point against your intelligent arguement of brass 'always' being within a few thousandths. That is flat BULLSHIT. I have loaded over 90K rounds in 35+yrs of reloading and have somewhat of an idea of brass variance. To think I fell off the damn turnip truck yesterday is pretty damn nieve on your part fella!!!

Edit to add..You claim I don't understand geometry bohem but I don't recall seeing a geometry question, perhaps in your mind, and I don't read that, too much static!

Too state "I have done a dozen and had no issues" is truely a safe and intelligent arguement?? Just because nothing has happened to you don't make it right and don't make it 100% safe! If you are willing to read what I wrote and comprehend it I DID NOT say anywhere it WAS unsafe, I said it could be unsafe if sold to someone else that doesn't understand proper brass sizing on a chamber that 'could' have questionable tolerances. However, you are looking to argue to justify your comments and proudly advertised practices so the 'you aren't seeing the trees because of the forest' statement applies!!

Done trying to make a point with someone who only wants an arguement in an attempt to have the masses think he is soooo much smarter than the 'old guy'!! I think reading comprehension is perhaps not only short on one end as you proudly imply!

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Occupation: Disabled and <span style="font-weight: bold">Incompetent</span>
Hobbies: Coyote Hunting,<span style="font-weight: bold">Piss Poor Hobby Gunsmith</span> </div></div>

For all your bluster, at least you got the profile information right.

 

[2156SMK]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

You guys should get a room together...

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should get a room together... </div></div>

Good point. I'm outta here, I've tried leading the horse to water but I think it's drowning right now.

I'll remove my comments above, not meaningful to answering the thread question nor is it going to help the OP who was caught in the crossfire.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Occupation: Disabled and <span style="font-weight: bold">Incompetent</span>
Hobbies: Coyote Hunting,<span style="font-weight: bold">Piss Poor Hobby Gunsmith</span> </div></div>

For all your bluster, at least you got the profile information right.


</div></div>

Ahhh, and finally the cheap shots because I don't see accuracy or being cheap as being more important than safety!

Being arrogant and narcassistic does indeed make you correct and your insults towards my health, percieved education and experience are well deserved. Everyone knows that a Mechanical Engineer degree is only obtainable with an extensive machining and gunsmithing career.

Is that degree only obtained after having a tantrum and acting like a 6yr old? If it helps you are correct and here is your sucker lil one! Please don't cry! Post count vs timeframe make you THE WINNER

Oh, and thanks for referencing my profile and pointing out that my being disabled may be part of the issue but also being suttle with highlighting ONLY the "incompetent" part. Your arrogance should include that you were born healthy and look down on those who were not! Figures!

 

[EventHorizon]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

SDW

Take it easy boss, Bohem's a good guy and more than just book smart. He recently won Reade and can build a mean rifle himself...

this is what I shot sighting in my rifle he built for me (Mark Gordon at SAC bedded it). It's a 6.5 Creedmoor on a Big Horn Tactical Action with a bipod on a bench. I wasn't going for groups and when I looked at what I shot I was more than pleased with the rifle that was barreled over a Grizzly lathe in his dad's workshop with me getting in the way and asking dumb questions.

The point is, emotion got into the transfer of information. If you're as safety conscious as you say then you'd be doing yourself a favor and just re-reading his point when you're not hot and bothered. He's saying your logic is flawed and in fact rather than making you safe, it's doing the opposite. What would it hurt to re-read his stuff?

If it's any consolation, Bohem's very ugly and socially awkward (he's of German descent...) and has very few friends all of whom strongly suspect he has unresolved gender identity issues.

All that aside, he's irritatingly clued in on all things firearms so we all tend to listen to him when he does speak.

BTW - your profile, it's kind of like Miranda rights, what you say about yourself can and will be used against you....

happy shooting.

 

[Clark]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SDWhirlwind</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.. I think the word narcassist comes to mind,.. </div></div>There are those visiting a forum thread to get information and there are those there to give information.
I have read enough about narcissism to be dangerous.
I think narcissism is a useful model to explain why some would go to a gunsmithing forum and explain how to do gunsmithing.
a) If one of the narcissists [contributors] always used a head space gauge to chamber a rifle, a post about doing it some other way would seem quite threatening.
b) For those narcissists [contributors] who selected a piece of brass to head space a rifle, it would be another opportunity to make a thread all about them.

What does it all mean?
Without narcissism, there would be no forum.
With more than one narcissist, we have conflict.

 

[my human host]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

I run several rifles in the same chambering. I can eject a fired case out of one and it will chamber in the others. That's what headspace guages bring to the party.

 

[bohem]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: my human host</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I run several rifles in the same chambering. I can eject a fired case out of one and it will chamber in the others. That's what headspace guages bring to the party. </div></div>

I have 3 6.5CM's between 2 of my barrels and 1 of a buddy's rifle that do the same thing.






It seems to be missed, the OP asked about something to crutch through a one time use and I gave him another option.

You want to stick to a headspace gauge only? Have at it, but it's not the only way to skin the cat.

 

[my human host]

Re: Anyone make their own headspace gauges?

I understand your reasons for recommending it to the op.

And yes, I've done it myself and still have all of my digits and both of my peepers.

I would argue the point of repeatable results with an easily compressed piece of brass vs. a steel guage. Perhaps your kung fu surpasses my own. I admit it may be so.