Ar trigger?
- Thread starter Icewater
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No trigger can cut groups in half, they just help mask less than perfect trigger control.
Do you want us to vote on who you should marry too? There are a lot of factors, and most of those are personal. A lot of people drink the Kool aide and try an aftermarket trigger...pretty much all of them are better than "stock" so they think it is the bestest ever. If you never saw a girl until you were 16, and then got kissed by one, you would think you had died and gone to heaven too.
Get thee to a range where people have a variety of triggers and try some. AR-Gold, Jard, JPs, CMCs, POF, Wilsons, JLGs, Hyperfires and even the Timney and Geissele's, which I personally don't care much for, all have fans, but it is your finger and your purpose that you must match. I have owned at least one of all the ones I listed, if I had to spend money on one tomorrow, it would be a Jard, CMC, or POF depending on the purpose of the rifle.
Do you want us to vote on who you should marry too? There are a lot of factors, and most of those are personal. A lot of people drink the Kool aide and try an aftermarket trigger...pretty much all of them are better than "stock" so they think it is the bestest ever. If you never saw a girl until you were 16, and then got kissed by one, you would think you had died and gone to heaven too.
Get thee to a range where people have a variety of triggers and try some. AR-Gold, Jard, JPs, CMCs, POF, Wilsons, JLGs, Hyperfires and even the Timney and Geissele's, which I personally don't care much for, all have fans, but it is your finger and your purpose that you must match. I have owned at least one of all the ones I listed, if I had to spend money on one tomorrow, it would be a Jard, CMC, or POF depending on the purpose of the rifle.
MarkCO try squeezing a stock Colt LLE6920 M4 trigger with your thumb and see how good your groups are.
I've had good luck with the RRA 2-stage and the Armalite 2 stage. I've also stoned the stock triggers and improved them greatly, despite all the hand-wringing naysayers telling me I would remove the surface hardening and the trigger would fail due to wear. I'm a "casual shooter" and not inclined to spend 300 bucks for a trigger. ALG is good I hear, and not expensive. Depends on how serious you are and the purpose you have in mind for the gun, but just about ANY trigger is an improvement over the original equipment in anything other than a combat role.
I have both the RRA NM trigger in my RRA NM AR and I have the SSA-E in my 6920. I like them both - either one will do a great job.
I've had the Timney and I've owned a gen 3 POF. Didn't care for the Timney as much as the SSA-E (I prefer the 2 stage feel) and aside from the non 2 stage feature, POF had all sharp corners on the trigger which I just didn't care for.
As you can tell, it's mainly personal preference. RRA, Timney, POF, and Gieselle will all improve the trigger of a bone stock AR.
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I've had the Timney and I've owned a gen 3 POF. Didn't care for the Timney as much as the SSA-E (I prefer the 2 stage feel) and aside from the non 2 stage feature, POF had all sharp corners on the trigger which I just didn't care for.
As you can tell, it's mainly personal preference. RRA, Timney, POF, and Gieselle will all improve the trigger of a bone stock AR.
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If you really want the best trigger for the money, get a CMC. To get something better you would have to spend $100-150 more. I like them better than any of the available Geisseles except for the Hi-Speed models and they are almost to at least as good as JP. The only triggers that I feel could beat the CMC are the AR Gold and the Wilson TTU (and possibly the Geissele Hi-Speed if tuned and adjusted properly).
This, and they will help you in choosing. Excellent CS as well.
If you fancy a single-stage, check out the Hiperfire. This one turned my head enough for me to give it a chance and I'm very happy I did.
cant attest to all the above mentioned but I can give a second head nod to the timney 3lb..
just remember to make sure your trigger pins don't try to fall out after you switch to a drop in unit.. (learned that the hard way)
just remember to make sure your trigger pins don't try to fall out after you switch to a drop in unit.. (learned that the hard way)
+1
Happy koolaid drinker here. Just got my first Geissele SSA-E and it's like kissing a girl for the first time.
I guess I'm a trigger gigolo because I've tried quite a few others and Geissele is not my favorite. Not dismissing your enjoyable moment but sometimes the first girl you kiss is not the best for you. Ironically, my first AR trigger is still my favorite even though I've tried many others including many of the Geisseles.
No offense taken. Haha. I was having fun with Mark's comments, but I totally agree with him that a lot of any gun choice should come down to personal preference, not simply because everyone else says it's great. That said, I've learned that many times when something has a huge following it is for good reason. I was actually surprised by the number of "other" trigger preferences here. If this same question were asked (and it has been), on some other firearm forums I go to, 9 out of 10 replies would be Geissele. I'm not discounting other brands at all. I know that fanboyism and koolaid affects lots of polls, but when something has such a disproportionate following, it is at least worth a look into.
Have a Geissele SSA-E in my LWRC and really like it. It is my first aftermarket trigger but so far so good would def buy another.
Well said.
Unfortunately for me, the overwhelming support for Geissele led to a tremendous letdown when I decided to give them a try. Admittedly, the disappointment may have been a little less had I tried their Hi-Speed models and not their much over-hyped (imo) S3G model. Starting with the AR Gold and then trying an S3G felt a lot like going from a custom 1911 trigger to a custom Glock trigger. It did feel like the best Glock trigger ever. But to use an analogy similar to yours, it was like going from dating the hottest girl in school to dating the best of the average looking girls in school.
I have tried them all and my favorite in 2 stage is the Giesselle SSA-E. In single stage it's the Giesselle 3G. Both are spectacular but expensive. For a recent build for a friend he did not have the bucks for a $200 trigger so I tried one of the AGL Combat Triggers. These are supposedly mil-spec triggers tuned by Giesselle. The nickle plated combat is $68 and is really really smooth. I added a JP light spring set which dropped the pull weight down from 6lbs to 3lbs and did some take up adjustment with a set screw in the pistol grip hole. WOW what a difference. For a total of $80 this is one smooth trigger. I have a 3G in my rifle and pulling them side by side you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.
I've used the Geisselle Super Dynamic Enhanced in my first build and I couldn't be happier.
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I recently put 2 LPK's with ALG triggers (Brownells combo deal) in a friends rifles and while heavy, they were very crisp and excellent for the money. I also have a Timney and a Hyperfire. I prefer the Hyperfire. You really have to pop open the rifle and see how they work to appreciate the design that went into them. When you put your thumb on the hammer and pull the trigger it feels like a compound bow releasing. They are able to give you a crisp 2.5-3.0 lb trigger pull while still having the hammer force of a 6-7 lb mil-spec trigger. Pretty neat.
Which of them "all" have you tried? And believe me or not, the S3G is a 2-stage design with a single stage feel,
How did he? The SSA-E is a 2 stage and the 3Gun is a single stage (at least in feel, as ipsick pointed out)...
I have two single stage Wilson Combat triggers in existing ARs, with a third trigger on order. The break on these triggers is crisp and clean, with no creep. The reset is short and positive.
Untill you can shoot expert or the equivelent level of marksmanship with a factory m16/Ar-15 trigger, spend your money on ammo, classes, and practice.
A trigger is for that last little OMPH for people who ALREADY have their fundementals mastered and can shoot well.
Buying a high end trigger will not make you a better shooter, in fact, it can be deteremental to your shooting development. We are talking carbines here, not F-class or M40/M24 builds.
A trigger is for that last little OMPH for people who ALREADY have their fundementals mastered and can shoot well.
Buying a high end trigger will not make you a better shooter, in fact, it can be deteremental to your shooting development. We are talking carbines here, not F-class or M40/M24 builds.
Yes technically a 2 stage but it shoots like a single stage. The take up is so sorth you will never tell when it changes. The SSA-E has a distinct transition point. You can bounce off it with your finger. I love that for precision target work and the 3G for fast shooting.
I have owned and run an AR Gold, Wilson Combat TTU-3G and TTU-Combat, Timney 3lb and 4lb, Jard, JP, RRA Match and all of the Giessele's. I have yet to try a Jewell or a Hiperfire.
I have owned and run an AR Gold, Wilson Combat TTU-3G and TTU-Combat, Timney 3lb and 4lb, Jard, JP, RRA Match and all of the Giessele's. I have yet to try a Jewell or a Hiperfire.
Out of all the AR triggers I've tried, I prefer the SSA-E, but I also prefer my 2 stage AI trigger to other bolt gun options. I think a lot has to do with what you grow used to.
I also have a SD3G on a lower, and it's nice to have for some types of 3 gun matches, but not so great for precision shooting.
I also have a SD3G on a lower, and it's nice to have for some types of 3 gun matches, but not so great for precision shooting.
I have a Geissele high speed match in one, a JP in another, and a stoned one from an "R" Guns lower parts kit in a third. So far, the Geissele has been very nice, although it had to be adjusted to be a bit heavier to avoid any more doubling. The JP *seems* to be getting rougher after 3600 rounds. Haven't gotten around to disassembling it to see if it can be smoothed again. The self-stoned one is doing well, although I haven't run a lot of rounds through it. I did have it surface hardened after I stoned it.
As has been pointed out, most any good after-market trigger is going to be a significant improvement over a stock trigger.
Cheers,
Richard
As has been pointed out, most any good after-market trigger is going to be a significant improvement over a stock trigger.
Cheers,
Richard
OP,
The stock 6920 permits SMOOTH trigger control when the grip is high and the finger is allowed to fall on the trigger where natural. The design's pull weight assures no concern for doubling even when the grip is held loosely, whereby the finger can become detached from trigger before recoil has subsided, forcing trigger contact (unintentional pull) again on bolt closure.
The GA trigger can serve as a substitute for not knowing how to execute SMOOTH trigger control with the stock trigger but the GA's appeal for an experienced shooter is its fast lock time, which enhances shooting from the standing position, reducing the effect of less than perfect follow through.
The stock 6920 permits SMOOTH trigger control when the grip is high and the finger is allowed to fall on the trigger where natural. The design's pull weight assures no concern for doubling even when the grip is held loosely, whereby the finger can become detached from trigger before recoil has subsided, forcing trigger contact (unintentional pull) again on bolt closure.
The GA trigger can serve as a substitute for not knowing how to execute SMOOTH trigger control with the stock trigger but the GA's appeal for an experienced shooter is its fast lock time, which enhances shooting from the standing position, reducing the effect of less than perfect follow through.
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I would agree that a "better" trigger won't necessarily make me a better shooter but I do think it would make it more enjoyable. I only put 45 rounds through it shooting an AR for my first time ever and I am hooked! The trigger bothered me a little on the bench but I think free standing it bothered me more. I really do think I could shoot a tighter group with a lighter less creep trigger. This gun isn't going to be a speed shooter, the way the gun is set up and my style don't really allow it, eventually I want a Daniel Defense with a full rail for a different shooting style. Before this thread I could name accu and timney, now I have heard of quite a few others, it's all education. I hardley know the first thing about ARs but I do know I like to shoot them and I need to shoot much more, I also know I want a different trigger.
Thats the point. You don't have a basic understanding of fundamentals, and trying to "cheat" you way into shooting better, will just make it harder and will most likely make you a worse shooter. Slow down, learn to shoot an off the rack gun, then when you pick up the high speed shit, you will come to appreciate and understand it much more.
Newbies come here every month and year saying "I want yada yada yada" Truth is, you don't know what you want, because you haven't put in the time to experience the platform, and REALIZE what you want. People here really don't give a shit about your development and have no vested interest in it. They mostly want to reinforce what they think, or tell you to buy what they bought/want.
Best thing you could do is find an appleseed clinic and find your local highpower shooters. Or join the Army/Marines and learn how to shoot in boot camp, but I advise against this unlike you want 4 years of pain and suffering. Your local highpower shooters are guys who shoot AR's with open sites to 600 yards. Most of them are old fucks, but they are good guys and will help a newbie out. Just keep your mouth shut, ears open, and listen to their instructions and you will probably learn more about shooting an AR and marksmanship in general than you would in 10 years of the military or shooting at dirt piles. Then after you get the system down, take some classes and invest your money into ammo and training. After that, you will know exactly what system you want and how you want to set it up. There is no free lunch in this game. Lots of guys got shinny cool rifles to show off, but most would be dead within 30 seconds of a real firefight. Most couldn't hit a partially covered man at 200 yards with open sights, and understanding the battle zero and holdovers at typical engagement distance (25-500 yards). That is learned through practice and training, and there is no substitute.
Or here's another idea...do what you want to in order to enjoy the sport. I haven't heard the OP explaining in great detail what he wants to do with an AR, but shooting people at 200 yards that are partially hidden might not be his plan. It would generally be illegal to do that unless you were in a war.
If the OP wants to get into shooting as a sport, and wants to drop $100 on a new trigger, more power to him, if it makes it more enjoyable. If he wants to fight a war, he really won't need this thread, and instead can listen to the people who instruct him. Sooner or later most internet gun threads polarize into "you're dumb not to spend $$$ and buy what I bought", or at the other end of the spectrum, "Don't put a single thing on your gun, just train with it and in 45 years you can be good like me". This particular OP is asking what people like in aftermarket triggers. In fact, that was his first sentence. If he bought an AR, that means he is legally an adult. Let's let him decide if he should buy one or not. It's his money.
My answer is that I really like my Geissele SSA-E. No, it doesn't make me a better shooter (but I do have more fun).
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Another vote here for Geissele SSA-E. Got Geissele triggers in 3 AR's and a Scar17 and they're awesome. Also consider the American Trigger Gold. It came with my LaRue tOBR and I'd give it a slight edge (very slight) over the SSA-E but that's really splitting hairs.
I'm a bit surprised the Gold came out so nice. I tried a Gold on a 7.62 tOBR and it felt a little creepy. Similar to how mine on my LR-308 felt at first. I had to tweak the safety to get it right. It's weird because my .223 Gold was just about perfect out of the box and for me it wasn't close between that Gold and any of the Geissele offerings save the Hi-Speed models. The Gold just felt way better to me.
OP,
I'm assuming you are a smart guy, and being such, your new Colt is analogous to what a first run feature movie is to most folks. That's to say, once you've seen the movie you're not going back the next day to see it again, you've already been there and done that. You will have a similar experience with your rifle, having fun with it for a weekend or two; and then, after you have screwed on all the tactical stuff that can be accommodated by your rifle to produce whatever experience you fascinated about, having been there and done that, you will move on to another project. I see this happening every day. But, with some training, as has been suggested by Cobracutter, you will relish the leisure time on the range with your rifle for years to come. That's because it's the development of marksmanship not the gun itself which inspires enduring fun for smart folks. This is something to ponder as all your leisure time is a luxury. You can use it to get to a distant destination or just go around and around getting no where.
You can get a taste for this fun I am suggesting you explore at a local M1 Garand Clinic, or you can sign up for the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School set for July 15 through 17 at Camp Perry, OH. At SAFS the 15 member United States Army Marksmanship Unit Service Rifle Team will show you everything there is to know about shooting the Service Rifle. With such knowledge and practice, you will be able to hit targets to any distance the bullet can get to nose-on with an as issued rifle with irons. How much fun would that be?
At any rate, whether you get any training or just go about it in a manner that you perceive will make your boat float, at least learn how to shoot your rifle in its stock configuration before dressing it up. That way you will see that some of the material substitutions you will undoubtedly make to the rifle will undermine its performance. Well wait, without any training you will not actually understand the effect of any alterations. You'll just be back on this forum asking about why you can't get the job done and the gun queers will tell you what parts substitutions they have made to make them the marksmen they believe themselves to be. It's a vicious cycle. LOL
I'm assuming you are a smart guy, and being such, your new Colt is analogous to what a first run feature movie is to most folks. That's to say, once you've seen the movie you're not going back the next day to see it again, you've already been there and done that. You will have a similar experience with your rifle, having fun with it for a weekend or two; and then, after you have screwed on all the tactical stuff that can be accommodated by your rifle to produce whatever experience you fascinated about, having been there and done that, you will move on to another project. I see this happening every day. But, with some training, as has been suggested by Cobracutter, you will relish the leisure time on the range with your rifle for years to come. That's because it's the development of marksmanship not the gun itself which inspires enduring fun for smart folks. This is something to ponder as all your leisure time is a luxury. You can use it to get to a distant destination or just go around and around getting no where.
You can get a taste for this fun I am suggesting you explore at a local M1 Garand Clinic, or you can sign up for the USAMU's Small Arms Firing School set for July 15 through 17 at Camp Perry, OH. At SAFS the 15 member United States Army Marksmanship Unit Service Rifle Team will show you everything there is to know about shooting the Service Rifle. With such knowledge and practice, you will be able to hit targets to any distance the bullet can get to nose-on with an as issued rifle with irons. How much fun would that be?
At any rate, whether you get any training or just go about it in a manner that you perceive will make your boat float, at least learn how to shoot your rifle in its stock configuration before dressing it up. That way you will see that some of the material substitutions you will undoubtedly make to the rifle will undermine its performance. Well wait, without any training you will not actually understand the effect of any alterations. You'll just be back on this forum asking about why you can't get the job done and the gun queers will tell you what parts substitutions they have made to make them the marksmen they believe themselves to be. It's a vicious cycle. LOL
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I'll back the CMC drop in triggers as great options (both flat and curved). Have had a number of experienced shooters try mine and rave about the performance, even as compared to other more name brand triggers. At $160 there's not much else you can buy for your rifle that will make as much of an impact.
I chose the flat 3lb version myself.
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I chose the flat 3lb version myself.
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Enjoy shooting at dirt piles and never learning how to actualy run the gun. Its not about shooting at people, or certain targets, its about being to hit what you want to hit. There is a reason most firearms trainers don't have you just blast at a ISPC target from 7 yards away and call it good.
Stop trying to make these bullshit, strawman logic leaps. If you can't understand what I and others in the thread have pointed out, then you need to just stay quiet beacuse its way over your head. As long as I am alive, I am going to tell people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. You are doing the OP a disservice with your attititude. Last time I checked, this site was not about buying bling and showing it off. We are here to learn to shoot better, be better marksman and increase our skills in realted crafts and disciplines. Slapping a new trigger on is not going to do anything, but cost him more money.
First off, I would like to add my 2 cents and put my vote in for the Geissele trigger. I have used a Geissele, a Timney, and a CMMG, and in my opinion the Geissele SSA-E which I used was the best in terms of a short smooth clean break, and a very postive short reset.
I understand you are probably excited about your rifle and just want to pick out future upgrades, but I would have to agree with what others stated about how it would be wiser to instead get more ammo and become more proficient with it as an off the shelf rifle. Take your time and really learn the stock trigger and put hundreds of rounds through the rifle using it. Once you have become proficient with the factory mil spec trigger only then will you really appreciate and see great positive results switching to one of the aftermarket triggers listed.
I want to also add to a comment I saw that said to join the military so you can learn how to use the rifle in boot camp... Maybe the person who said this is not aware of how little the majority of our armed forces actually get to use and practice with their rifle in todays times. Even in boot camp during weapons training it is mostly administrative and you do not really get much hands on training and trigger time. After boot camp it is just a matter of qualifying with your rifle 1-2 times a year and that is the only time you will get any trigger time during the course of your enlistment unless you are part of an elite unit, or are deployed and seeing combat. You would be surprised how many people I have encountered with both a military and/or LE background during a carbine class that are taking the class because they feel like they did not get what they felt was proper training or nearly enough time actually using and practicing with their rifle. With that said, if you want to mix it up from just shooting and learning on your own, I would highly reccommend taking a class from a reputable instructor or organization. If you do not wish to do so you can do just fine learning on your own and just putting rounds down range. My opinion would be to get many rounds down range with your factory trigger whether it is through a formal training course or on your own before upgrading the trigger. I don't blame you though for just being excited about it and wanting to look into upgrades. Cheers.
I understand you are probably excited about your rifle and just want to pick out future upgrades, but I would have to agree with what others stated about how it would be wiser to instead get more ammo and become more proficient with it as an off the shelf rifle. Take your time and really learn the stock trigger and put hundreds of rounds through the rifle using it. Once you have become proficient with the factory mil spec trigger only then will you really appreciate and see great positive results switching to one of the aftermarket triggers listed.
I want to also add to a comment I saw that said to join the military so you can learn how to use the rifle in boot camp... Maybe the person who said this is not aware of how little the majority of our armed forces actually get to use and practice with their rifle in todays times. Even in boot camp during weapons training it is mostly administrative and you do not really get much hands on training and trigger time. After boot camp it is just a matter of qualifying with your rifle 1-2 times a year and that is the only time you will get any trigger time during the course of your enlistment unless you are part of an elite unit, or are deployed and seeing combat. You would be surprised how many people I have encountered with both a military and/or LE background during a carbine class that are taking the class because they feel like they did not get what they felt was proper training or nearly enough time actually using and practicing with their rifle. With that said, if you want to mix it up from just shooting and learning on your own, I would highly reccommend taking a class from a reputable instructor or organization. If you do not wish to do so you can do just fine learning on your own and just putting rounds down range. My opinion would be to get many rounds down range with your factory trigger whether it is through a formal training course or on your own before upgrading the trigger. I don't blame you though for just being excited about it and wanting to look into upgrades. Cheers.
If the OP started a thread about how to improve his marksmanship fundamentals your advice would be far better than mine. I'm simply staying on topic. I'll be honest, it gets old listening to people who would rather be on their soap box than answer an OP's question. To bring the argument back to triggers, my first duty weapon had an 8 lb trigger. Want to know what it taught me? How to shoot a handgun with an 8 lb trigger. It sure didn't make me a better pistol shot. When we changed back to the stock 5.5 lb trigger, I had to relearn it because I was used to a heavier trigger pull. When I competed in PPC we used tricked out Model 19's, with beautiful triggers. I'll be the first to admit, it's not ALL skill. Gear does make a difference. My issued carbine has a stock Colt trigger, which is actually not a bad 2 stage trigger, I guess I got lucky. I don't feel a need to replace it (it wouldn't be allowed anyways). My new personal carbine on the other hand, came with a factory trigger of over 8 lbs. So I changed it out and I'm very happy with the results. I suppose I should have left it on and become a great marksman with my 8 lb trigger, oh well, my loss.
I don't think telling someone to focus on fundamentals is bad advice. I think telling them that and refusing to answer their question is a disservice. I figure as a grown man he ought to know how he intends to spend his hobby time. It's not my job to try and tell him he's doing his hobby wrong and that my way of doing it is the only one that matters. By the way, the internet bravado of telling me I shoot at dirt piles and am in over my head is unbecoming of you. If you are truly a "quiet professional" you are doing yourself a disservice with your comments, they just make you sound like a tough guy.
PS- Metal Gear, excellent post!
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