AR15 accuracy issues

[nfoley]

Okay here's the story.
Bought a used American Spirit Arms AR15. Had some issues with accuracy (couldn't get to shoot better than about 4"). Called ASA, they said if it was not something prior owner did they would warranty and make it shoot (they guarantee MOA). Well about $75 and 2 weeks later get the gun back. They said it was "in spec." Shot it again, same results. When I asked what they did, they replied they shot 'factory reloads (NOT match ammo) with iron sights and got 1" at 100yds off sandbag. They suggested I get someone else to shoot the rifle. Ouch.
So tried 2 different scopes with different mounts and about 6-7 different types of ammo. Below is a pic (first pic) of average group I get. The target below was 5 shot group with my POF 308 to make sure I wasn't flinching like a fool. And that ammo was cheap factory stuff (was out of my match reloads).
So.. what do you guys think? New barrel? Is it possible the front post is causing some kind of error - it is completely out of focus but I don't know if that post does something.

 

[edwin907]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

A friend had picked up a barely used S&W 16" AR that wouldn't hold a decent group, 8-9" @ 100yds with M193/M855 (he said, but he's a reliable shooter).
Honestly don't think it had more than 30 rounds through it when he picked it up.
Re-installed the barrel with a Vortex (original A2 was indexed wrong) and after a quick zero, it shot 3-4" 100yd groups with Q3131A and a TA31 donut on a windy day and eyes tired from 10 hours at work.
He later shot 1.3" groups with some BH 69gr, I want my ACOG back!

I doubt they got 1" groups without match ammo, what do you think. From your evidence, I doubt they did more than a test fire to limit potential liability.
Check the assembly specs, and re-test. Clean it good first, then see what it does. Sounds like it has had enough ammo to relieve any break-in issues. Also, inspect crown, carefully.

 

[BOL556]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

Looks like your changing your sight picture. Are you able to see clearly through the scope or are you seeing like a half moon shaped shadows. Try bring the target into 25 yards and see if you can get it to group like the POF. If you can get a group at 25 yards with in 1.6 inches you should be good. From the pic I cant tell, is the objective of the scope resting on the rail or close to cause that might be your issue as well. What optic are you running on your POF. Since you know its shooting like it should try putting it on the other rifle and see what kind of results you get.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

Has the scope been proven on another rifle?
Did you let someone else shoot it (no offense at all, I can shoot boltguns and my 6.5 POF alright, but have never been a good grouper with AR15's), someone else shooting is the first trounbleshooting I usually do.

 

[nfoley]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

No the objective does not touch the rail. And I did get decent groups at 50 yds - about 1.5". I actually tried switching the scopes when I was at the range with similar results. And yes I did actually have someone else shoot my ar when I initially got it back - he had same results. I am thinking about trying to put a gas block on it to take the front post out of the equation. I find it hard to believe they would send the gun back after I specifically told them about accuracy issues, and not have gotten decent groups. I really like the rifle but am having fits with it. The other thing I think I will do is have a reliable local shop take a look at it and see what they think. For what I got it for it really isn't that bad, and with a red dot sight at 50 yds it is totally adequate. But I would like to occassionally reach out to 3-400 yds with it.

 

[nfoley]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

And just to clarify I am definitely not bashing American Spirit Arms here. I have to believe they would not send me a gun that shot 4-5" groups and say it was shooting 1" groups with open sights with them! They are very friendly and helpful on the phone. If I have to rebarrel its not end of the world. The rifle is 100% reliable with everything, including some Russian steel ammo. American Spirit Arms is only a 2 hour drive for me, maybe I will make a trip up there if I continue to have problems.

 

[dlxcupid]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

what kind of ammo did you run through it? what gr? what brand?

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

Its not the front sight post. I personally never run an AR not free floated.

ASA's good folks, I'm sorry to hear this.

 

[rcw3]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

There are way too many variables and there is not enough specific technical information to make a well reasoned assessment on the question of the accuracy issues. Any answer would just be a guess. I would start by taking the flash suppressor off, and making sure your crown is good and shooting it that way (without the flash suppressor.

I assume when you are shooting the rifle you are using a rest on the front hand guard and not propping it on the barrel. I just bring that up because I have seen people use barrel mounted bipods and all the down pressure is put on the end of the barrel and it makes for lousy groups.

Robert

 

[nfoley]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

rcs3,
What specific technical info did you need? As far as shooing, I don't think that is the issue. I have shot AR15s quite a bit with good groups so feel this is not the issue. I also had someone else try earlier. It was shot with a front and rear bag and no pressure on the barrel. I took the POF out and shot them both the same so as to (hopefully)take that part out of the equation. Shooting that accurately is too easy.My buddies son came out (his first time shooting!) and shot under 2" with it off a bipod.
As far as ammo, I used PMC 55g factory, federal xm193, fiocchi 55g factory, Black hills 69g sierra match, and 2 reloads - one was 69g Sierra match bullets and the other 55g blitz kings. I figured at least one of these would shoot under 2" groups.
Having said I don't think my shooting is the issue, I do think it is possible with the scope/stock combo may be causing me to have inconsistent cheek weld and/or target picture even though it doesn't 'feel' like there is a problem there.
I like the idea of removing the flash suppressor and shooting. Recrowning would certainly be an inexpensive fix.
Just to say again, I agree with sobrbiker, ASA are definitely good people and I would buy from them again. I am certain if you bought a new rifle from them there would be no issues. This being a used gun does bring into question the possibility of a bad crown from poor cleaning techinque.
I will update as this unfolds. Thanks again everyone! Much appreciate all the input.

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

That doesn't look like a free-float handrail, at least not in the pictures.Also, are you certain the barrel nut is tight? If it's loose, and the rail rests on the bag,there goes your accuracy.

 

[reloader09]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

What's the trigger like?

 

[nfoley]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

Its a geissle trigger - very good. And it is a free floated handguard - pic may not show it well. I have not checked the barrel nut. When I sent it to ASA, they made sure everything was in spec before shooting. I trust they checked that.
Removed the flash suppressor and got same results. Crown looked good but I know you need to assess crown from inside with a scope, did not do that. This week if I get a chance am gonna run it over to a shop that specializes in ARs down here - Black Weapons Armory. Very knowledgeable people there, and they are big fans of ASA.

 

[reloader09]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

I kinda went through the same thing with a BCM upper. Best I could get was 4-5 moa at 100 yards. After about 3 weeks of messing with it I sent it back to them. They test fired it and said was not up to their standard and sent me a new one. They never would tell me what was wrong with it. I suspect it was the crown but who knows. Keep us posted and let us know the outcome.

Jason

 

[joetuono]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

I think I would make the 2 hour drive and ask them if you can watch them shoot an open sight 1 inch group.

 

[SELPHB]

Re: AR15 accuracy issues

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nfoley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its a geissle trigger - very good. And it is a free floated handguard - pic may not show it well. I have not checked the barrel nut. When I sent it to ASA, they made sure everything was in spec before shooting. I trust they checked that.
Removed the flash suppressor and got same results. Crown looked good but I know you need to assess crown from inside with a scope, did not do that. This week if I get a chance am gonna run it over to a shop that specializes in ARs down here - Black Weapons Armory. Very knowledgeable people there, and they are big fans of ASA. </div></div>

If you want to send the upper to me I can go through and make sure everything is right.. I can also make sure the crown is good and if not I can re do the crown and take it to the range and test it. Let me know if I can help.