are there any real world benefits with being so ..

[Ring]

are there any real world benefits with being so anal with brass cleaning?

US and SS cleaning?
i have all ways just used corncob and walnut to clean the out side, i have probably loaded the same 223 brass 30+ times and never once cleaned a primer pocket and still get sub .5moa out of the ammo...

has anyone done and real testing that shows all that extra work is worth anything?

 

[memilanuk]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

Honestly... I don't think it makes all that much difference in terms of raw accuracy. I know, I know, burn me for a heretic

Some people have taken .223 Rem cases that were fired IIRC 6 times or so, cleaned half of them w/ US and found that there was a small (.3gn or so) but quantifiable difference between 'clean' and 'clean inside and out'. How much difference there would be between any given case in either batch is another question entirely. Granted, the case volume may get (very slightly) smaller with subsequent firings as carbon builds up... but I think it reaches a point where it is sort of self limiting in that a coating may be maintained, but beyond a certain level it falls off and doesn't increase. Thats just a gut-level instinct, though.

What it does buy me, though, is peace of mind. I like my cases all nice and shiny, inside and out. I like not having tumbler dust all over my 'clean' cases - and yes, I've been down that road of eliminating the dust as much as possible. I like not having *any* sort abrasives dust on the cases when they go in and out of my sizing dies. Years ago I scratched the piss out of a couple F/L sizing dies that way (before the quest for minimizing residual dust on the cases). Never again if I can help it.

That said... there are some trade-offs. Decapping before cleaning, for one. Minor thing, but time consuming. With US, I was plagued by (very) small batches if I wanted to get the cases completely clean in anything resembling a reasonable time frame, even with a very nice name-brand cleaner. In addition, I had problems with the necks getting slightly etched inside - no carbon left, but they weren't exactly 'smooth'. A quick pass over a wire brush wrapped w/ #0000 steel wool took care of that - but it was an additional thing to fuss over. With SS tumbling I have to balance the batch size vs. time to avoid peening/burring the case mouths - which would require re-chamfering on the case prep station. Again, not a biggie but still eats time - but it can be avoided with some diligence.

I certainly don't SS tumble the .223 Rem cases going into my gas guns - there is a limit to my insanity, thanks. And yes, they still shoot 1/2 moa pretty regularly. But the stuff that goes in my 'precision' bolt guns for target-only work gets cleaned via SS tumbling every couple firings at a minimum, annealed, etc. i.e. the full work-up. Why? Keeps my type 'A' self quiet and sedated

 

[rcamuglia]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ring</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are there any real world benefits with being so anal with brass cleaning?

</div></div>

No

 

[cstmwrks]

..

..

 

[Munson]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

plus I read somewhere that its good for the environment

 

[TresMon]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

You know me I'm really technical;

Brass work hardens. Peck it or peen it and it gets hard. Hard brass = bad for accuracy. Bad for case life.
Vibratory tumblers continually peen the brass together as they work, work hardening them, a little. You decide if it is a significant amount.

I used to shoot about a bazillion rounds of .45 acp each year with not a lot of brass cases. Each range trip I would have many cases that gave up the ghost via a split mouth after firing.

I did find that stopping vibratory cleaning and switching to another means let me get more firings per 45 case....

YMMV,
Tres

 

[427Cobra]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

My Rockwell hardness tester says there is no hardening of brass cleaned in SS media, I didn't check on the lip of the neck though, but half way between the lip and the shoulder, I don't think SS cleaned brass is more or less accurate, but it sure is pretty.

 

[vman]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

The benefits are happiness when your look at that shiny clean brass after you have cleaned it.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

Haven't checked accuracy, but for not having media in flash holes the ultrasonic wins everytime.

 

[Tactical30]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

I never had OCD until I started handloading.

 

[Big Cal]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

To me the benefit is better consistency as there is less variation in the volume of the case as there is no residue in the case to reduce internal volume even if it is only a tiny amount it still counts and clean tidy brass gives you a warm fuzzy feeling lol

 

[coues7]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TresMon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know me I'm really technical;

Brass work hardens. Peck it or peen it and it gets hard. Hard brass = bad for accuracy. Bad for case life.
Vibratory tumblers continually peen the brass together as they work, work hardening them, a little. You decide if it is a significant amount.

I used to shoot about a bazillion rounds of .45 acp each year with not a lot of brass cases. Each range trip I would have many cases that gave up the ghost via a split mouth after firing.

I did find that stopping vibratory cleaning and switching to another means let me get more firings per 45 case....

YMMV,
Tres</div></div>

What is your "another means"?

 

[Country]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

One other thing that can harden brass is Ammonia . If media is treated with substances containing ammonia ( Brasso is one) that is bad for brass life also. Dilute organic Acids are better for cleaning brass as they react with the grime not so much the metal . Ammonia reacts with Zinc and Copper and cartridge brass is Copper and Zinc.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are there any real world benefits with being so anal with brass cleaning?

</div></div>

NO

 

[LawnMM]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">are there any real world benefits with being so anal with brass cleaning?

</div></div>

NO </div></div>

 

[Clark]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

Most accuracy rituals have unqualified benefits.

They are like government programs that go on and on with a life of their own.

Clean looking brass is an intangible... guaranteeing it's place with the unqualified.

 

[bohem]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

I've noticed a reduction in the wear of the neck sizing dies that I own. They're much much much less likely to develop a tendency to leave hairline marks on the brass if I only run clean brass through them.

I anneal relatively often, the cleaned brass looks much nicer if it's clean inside and out. It also gives me a better "eye" for if the annealing setup is properly setup since I don't have carbon build up gunk anywhere on the neck/shoulder.

In the great big, grand scheme:

I doubt it makes much difference at all.

Where I DO see a difference is the longevity of my tools and not having to wipe down my cases after corn-cob tumbling to get the dust off them.

And I take pride in having the nicest looking ammo on the line... especially when I can say "yeah, that has 23 reloads on the cases"

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

"I've noticed a reduction in the wear of the neck sizing dies that I own. They're much much much less likely to develop a tendency to leave hairline marks on the brass if I only run clean brass through them."

If that's true it's because your tumbling media polish is leaving a residue that provides a little lubracating effect, not because the brass is shiney.

 

[Clark]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I've noticed a reduction in the wear of the neck sizing dies that I own. They're much much much less likely to develop a tendency to leave hairline marks on the brass if I only run clean brass through them."

If that's true it's because your tumbling media polish is leaving a residue that provides a little lubracating effect, not because the brass is shiney.
</div></div>

I have noticed that a large fraction of the old dies, I bought off Ebay, would scratch the brass so deep, that they are not usable.

One way to keep dies clean is to spin them in the lathe while poking a Q-tip with FLITZ up inside.

I don't think the scratch in the die is what scratches the brass. I think the scratch in the die fills up with brass that scratches the brass.

It is kind of like Copper fouling in the bore scratching up the bullet.

 

[DamnYuppie]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

I simply like how they look, and yeah that is more then enough for me. To me shinny brass is more form over function.

Yet if my super awesome shinny brass was proven to reduce accuracy then mine would soon be all nasty and ugly. As far as I have read it doesn't matter for accuracy so I shines it up real good.....

 

[bohem]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I've noticed a reduction in the wear of the neck sizing dies that I own. They're much much much less likely to develop a tendency to leave hairline marks on the brass if I only run clean brass through them."

If that's true it's because your tumbling media polish is leaving a residue that provides a little lubracating effect, not because the brass is shiney.
</div></div>
I'm not sure I buy that, since the behavior was present whether I tumbled them or not in corncob.

It's the carbon left on the necks after many firings, even when tumbled in corncob.

I took the approach of wiping down the brass after tumbling and prior to being sized. The problem comes back.

FWIW, corn cob is not hard enough to cause the issue. The residue from the burning powder is hard enough to do it. I ran it without treated media.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

Somewhere along the line I recall hearing some BR types talking about how dies that had been properly honed and 'oil-hardened' thru some sort of heat-treat process didn't leave the sort of scratches - and were less prone to getting scratched themselves - than the run-of-the-mill consumer-grade dies most of us currently use... sadly, that was about *all* I got out of the conversation.

 

[Country]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

There is benifits to clean brass compared against realy dirty brass that might jam a gun up. Constantly reloading with very dirty brass will wear your dies prematurely . You can't do very precision sizing with very dirty brass it works way better if the brass is clean but it does not have to be very shinny to be clean.
The problem with this kind of discussion is that what one person thinks is dirty brass another thinks it's quite clean so it is very hard to have a bench mark to work from.
I have seen brass so filthy that it caused extraction problems but the person using it thought it was OK ! The sides of the brass had spots of grime so thick you could scrape some off with your finger nail . This mainly came from never cleaning the chamber or the brass and never removing the sizing lubricant so the sticky rounds picked up dust and grime . Dirty ammo box was also part of the problem and inside was filthy .
After cleaning his chamber and cleaning his ammo with fine steel wool the gun was extracting with far less effort on the bolt . This is an extreme case but it does show that clean is way better than dirty.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

I clean my DIES after every loading session. I shoot mostly IHMSA matches. My brass may hit the paved firing line but mostly gets extracted into my clean line box. From there it gets carefully placed back in a CLEAN MTM box. When I get ready to size I may or may not vibratory tumble the cases in walnut hulls. I shoot a lot and I will bet my dies will last me the rest of my life and provide many tens of thousands of very accurate rounds. If you don't clean your DIES then all bets are off. I wouldn't think of throwing brass containing dirt or mud into my tumbler, wash the brass first and allow it to dry THEN tumle as you wish.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

I seriously doubt vibratory cleaning work hardens brass enough for <span style="font-style: italic">me</span> to get excited about it.

Media crumbs in flash holes respond rather well to simple visual inspection. I am miserly with my handloading time, but this step is worth the time.

I don't devote much concern to interior case cleanliness. I may or may not use a bore brush in the necks; it depends on how crucial the application is. Semi's don't rate this, IMHO

Exterior case cleanliness relates to how well I'm treating the interiors of my loading dies. I also like to be able to tell how the case necks are sealing, as reported via neck sooting.

By and large, I'll tumble my cases with untreated walnut until I can detect a definite degree of new polish. I often write test load data on my cases with a Sharpie (to correspond with observable pressure signs on the cases) and mark the bases with permanent marker (to identify ownership, etc.). This stuff isn't worth extra tumbling to get clean, and resolves much more easily using a soft, clean cloth dampened in acetone/lacquer thinner; the best time for this being <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> tumbling.

I like clean, shiny ammo from an aesthetic viewpoint. But there's more to case cleaning than aesthetics, and in my general scheme of things, aesthetics comes in dead last.

Greg

 

[esromvre]

Re: are there any real world benefits with being so ..

I use the SS and I love that I dont have to clean my primer pockets. and the brass is so nice and shiny than when I aneal its easier to set the torches