Army lessens standards.....again.
- Thread starter crazy bay
- Start date
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
Great not as fit so instead of getting them fit with some good old fashion physical training they make it less hard and more touchy feely.
Great not as fit so instead of getting them fit with some good old fashion physical training they make it less hard and more touchy feely.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
The services are doomed to go through periodic cycles of growl, whimper, growl, whimper. If you wait long enough, it all sorts out. It wasn't a buncha fat babies who handed Saddam his ass.
The services are doomed to go through periodic cycles of growl, whimper, growl, whimper. If you wait long enough, it all sorts out. It wasn't a buncha fat babies who handed Saddam his ass.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
It's not that they are lowereing the standard at all. They are just going through the motions since they already know they will graduate teh entire platoon and 'Let AIT fix them'. AIT of course will jump right in line, let them all graduate, medical conditions, and weakness not withstanding, and 'Let the Unit handle it'.
The problem isn't lack of standard(well yeah, it is, but) in as much as it is passing the buck to get civilians into actual military shape to deploy. All this will cause is a unit that is in 'refit' after a deployment getting all these 'Soldiers', some Platoon Sergeant receiving them, handing them to a Squad LEader, who is going to be their worst nightmare until they are fit to fight. If that doesn't happen, right before deployment, the 'SOldier' will be chaptered out on some condition or other since many will find some obscure medical issue that means they can get out.
Army needs to take a hard look at:
Recruiting since gang bangers are getting waivered in
Basic Training since Soldiers are arriving to the unit unfit to fight
AIT since Soldiers who have no business in the Army are making it to the Unit.
Having been that Platoon Sergeant who recieves that POS gang banger or weak mofo and had to at least hand it to a good Squad Leader who had nothing but frustration until it was chaptered out or sent to WTU.
We did have the pleasure of receiving some really good entry level candidates that became good SOldiers, but the bottom line was these guys were already good to go when they came in from Cornbread USA
I am kinda glad it's not my problem anymore, but still know it was allowed to happen while I was in over the course of the past 25 years.
I'M sorry. That's not the MArine Corps or Army I signed up for
It's not that they are lowereing the standard at all. They are just going through the motions since they already know they will graduate teh entire platoon and 'Let AIT fix them'. AIT of course will jump right in line, let them all graduate, medical conditions, and weakness not withstanding, and 'Let the Unit handle it'.
The problem isn't lack of standard(well yeah, it is, but) in as much as it is passing the buck to get civilians into actual military shape to deploy. All this will cause is a unit that is in 'refit' after a deployment getting all these 'Soldiers', some Platoon Sergeant receiving them, handing them to a Squad LEader, who is going to be their worst nightmare until they are fit to fight. If that doesn't happen, right before deployment, the 'SOldier' will be chaptered out on some condition or other since many will find some obscure medical issue that means they can get out.
Army needs to take a hard look at:
Recruiting since gang bangers are getting waivered in
Basic Training since Soldiers are arriving to the unit unfit to fight
AIT since Soldiers who have no business in the Army are making it to the Unit.
Having been that Platoon Sergeant who recieves that POS gang banger or weak mofo and had to at least hand it to a good Squad Leader who had nothing but frustration until it was chaptered out or sent to WTU.
We did have the pleasure of receiving some really good entry level candidates that became good SOldiers, but the bottom line was these guys were already good to go when they came in from Cornbread USA
I am kinda glad it's not my problem anymore, but still know it was allowed to happen while I was in over the course of the past 25 years.
I'M sorry. That's not the MArine Corps or Army I signed up for
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
I love your guys attitude!! Train harder not smarter!!! Best way to get fat recruits out of the Army even faster is with your guys attitude.
I love your guys attitude!! Train harder not smarter!!! Best way to get fat recruits out of the Army even faster is with your guys attitude.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
Hmm.....I can see where they are going with this. Instead of testing someones ability to do exercises that have little to no relevance on the battlefield they want to start incorporating exercises that may be useful to the soldier on a daily basis.
I personally think the problem isnt a physical problem but a mental problem. I went to basic very unfit, but not obese. I was 5'8" and 135lbs the day I left MEPS for basic training. I ran the required one mile, at Reception, for the first time in over 5 years. I was in constant pain for about 2-3 weeks because of doing push-ups. I nutted up and pushed on. I ran my first 2 mile time of 16:45. I worked my ass off through basic and came out the otherside a different human being. My final weight was 173lbs. I was running a 2 mile time of 13:50ish and was maxing sit-ups and push-ups.
Hmm.....I can see where they are going with this. Instead of testing someones ability to do exercises that have little to no relevance on the battlefield they want to start incorporating exercises that may be useful to the soldier on a daily basis.
I personally think the problem isnt a physical problem but a mental problem. I went to basic very unfit, but not obese. I was 5'8" and 135lbs the day I left MEPS for basic training. I ran the required one mile, at Reception, for the first time in over 5 years. I was in constant pain for about 2-3 weeks because of doing push-ups. I nutted up and pushed on. I ran my first 2 mile time of 16:45. I worked my ass off through basic and came out the otherside a different human being. My final weight was 173lbs. I was running a 2 mile time of 13:50ish and was maxing sit-ups and push-ups.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
A big part of the problem I am seeing, and the large change in the soldiers I see come in from 2006 to now is the economy.
When I came in, most people in my OSUT and unit that were privates with me were there because we wanted to be. We joined the army, more specifically the infantry, because we wanted to do some cool shit.
I look at these privates now, and out of a company size I can pick out maybe 5 privates who fit that catagory now. The rest mostly are there because economic problems, loss of job, forclosures etc... They more so want a easy pay steady paycheck(very easily in military if you master the "I'm hurt medically" or some BS card.) than to be there because they have always wanted to.
It's still an all volunteer army, but not like the one we had a couple years ago even.
A big part of the problem I am seeing, and the large change in the soldiers I see come in from 2006 to now is the economy.
When I came in, most people in my OSUT and unit that were privates with me were there because we wanted to be. We joined the army, more specifically the infantry, because we wanted to do some cool shit.
I look at these privates now, and out of a company size I can pick out maybe 5 privates who fit that catagory now. The rest mostly are there because economic problems, loss of job, forclosures etc... They more so want a easy pay steady paycheck(very easily in military if you master the "I'm hurt medically" or some BS card.) than to be there because they have always wanted to.
It's still an all volunteer army, but not like the one we had a couple years ago even.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Standish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A big part of the problem I am seeing, and the large change in the soldiers I see come in from 2006 to now is the economy.
When I came in, most people in my OSUT and unit that were privates with me were there because we wanted to be. We joined the army, more specifically the infantry, because we wanted to do some cool shit.
I look at these privates now, and out of a company size I can pick out maybe 5 privates who fit that catagory now. The rest mostly are there because economic problems, loss of job, forclosures etc... They more so want a easy pay steady paycheck(very easily in military if you master the "I'm hurt medically" or some BS card.) than to be there because they have always wanted to.
It's still an all volunteer army, but not like the one we had a couple years ago even.</div></div>
Back to the mental side of things.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Standish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A big part of the problem I am seeing, and the large change in the soldiers I see come in from 2006 to now is the economy.
When I came in, most people in my OSUT and unit that were privates with me were there because we wanted to be. We joined the army, more specifically the infantry, because we wanted to do some cool shit.
I look at these privates now, and out of a company size I can pick out maybe 5 privates who fit that catagory now. The rest mostly are there because economic problems, loss of job, forclosures etc... They more so want a easy pay steady paycheck(very easily in military if you master the "I'm hurt medically" or some BS card.) than to be there because they have always wanted to.
It's still an all volunteer army, but not like the one we had a couple years ago even.</div></div>
Back to the mental side of things.....
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
Conventional wisdom is it's harder to recruit when the economy is strong. When the economy sours, they can afford to be more selective. Seems to me that right now they should have olympic athletes lining up to join.
Conventional wisdom is it's harder to recruit when the economy is strong. When the economy sours, they can afford to be more selective. Seems to me that right now they should have olympic athletes lining up to join.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
Going back to the "good ole days" when I went through Basic Infantry training in 1988 as an E2, I remember my share of useful exercises like the high jumper, turn and bounce, and knee bender. I've never understood how the sit-up made us more battle-ready, either. I don't really see how this yoga stuff is going to work, but I'm willing to operate on a little faith because the current APFT doesn't really capture our requirements.
The folks who are coming in are still volunteering to serve during a time of war. For the most part, they are out of shape. However, their volunteering speaks more to me than what I can say for the 99.5% of the remaining American population (police, fire, and other public services not included) who choose not to serve.
A lot of that fat is going to be burned off in Afghanistan or Iraq later this year. And yes, we will have our steady supply of duds--always have had them and we always will.
Going back to the "good ole days" when I went through Basic Infantry training in 1988 as an E2, I remember my share of useful exercises like the high jumper, turn and bounce, and knee bender. I've never understood how the sit-up made us more battle-ready, either. I don't really see how this yoga stuff is going to work, but I'm willing to operate on a little faith because the current APFT doesn't really capture our requirements.
The folks who are coming in are still volunteering to serve during a time of war. For the most part, they are out of shape. However, their volunteering speaks more to me than what I can say for the 99.5% of the remaining American population (police, fire, and other public services not included) who choose not to serve.
A lot of that fat is going to be burned off in Afghanistan or Iraq later this year. And yes, we will have our steady supply of duds--always have had them and we always will.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
You want to seriously test the metal of a prospective Soldier? Place the full combat load on his or her ass, correct deployment uniform, issued weapon, then make them sprint 300M after an individual who is 5'-7" tall in pajamas and sandals. Make them do it until they can catch the smaller individual.
Then take them out to a field and have them drag their battle buddy 100M with the same gear/uniform on while carrying 'battle's weapon.
Mext excercise: Full sprint 250M, do First Responder Aid to a 180# individual, adn carry that individual back to teh starting point then make them ready for the medic.
Last excercise for testing:
FUll sprint with weapons adn ammo through various structures for 20 minutes
If they can do all that they are ready to deploy
You want to seriously test the metal of a prospective Soldier? Place the full combat load on his or her ass, correct deployment uniform, issued weapon, then make them sprint 300M after an individual who is 5'-7" tall in pajamas and sandals. Make them do it until they can catch the smaller individual.
Then take them out to a field and have them drag their battle buddy 100M with the same gear/uniform on while carrying 'battle's weapon.
Mext excercise: Full sprint 250M, do First Responder Aid to a 180# individual, adn carry that individual back to teh starting point then make them ready for the medic.
Last excercise for testing:
FUll sprint with weapons adn ammo through various structures for 20 minutes
If they can do all that they are ready to deploy
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
Switch and Greg,
You may be happy to know that at least the Marines instituted something worthy when it comes to PT. They now take a "combat PFT" vice the old run, curl up, push up, pull up PFT. It is not the wildest departure from ways of old, but I think they have the right attitude.
Link
I will continue to hammer out my scores on the PFT even though the Navy on does "Passed/Within Standards" which does nothing to differentiate guys that do spectacularly or those that settle for mediocrity.
Josh
Switch and Greg,
You may be happy to know that at least the Marines instituted something worthy when it comes to PT. They now take a "combat PFT" vice the old run, curl up, push up, pull up PFT. It is not the wildest departure from ways of old, but I think they have the right attitude.
Link
I will continue to hammer out my scores on the PFT even though the Navy on does "Passed/Within Standards" which does nothing to differentiate guys that do spectacularly or those that settle for mediocrity.
Josh
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
ive noticed and i dont know if it is army wide. when i came in in early 2005 most privates were between 17 and 20 with a few exceptions. now the fresh meat we are getting arent fresh at all in the last 6 months we have gotten about 10 cherries and they are all older than me. they are overweight or broken, and they have a chip on their shoulder because they dont like a 23 year old squad leader digging in their ass. where are all the 18 year old kids
ive noticed and i dont know if it is army wide. when i came in in early 2005 most privates were between 17 and 20 with a few exceptions. now the fresh meat we are getting arent fresh at all in the last 6 months we have gotten about 10 cherries and they are all older than me. they are overweight or broken, and they have a chip on their shoulder because they dont like a 23 year old squad leader digging in their ass. where are all the 18 year old kids
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
I will defend that move for the Army - situps - I've seen overweight guys and sit ups do NOTHING for them yet they can knock them out all day long.
I'm tall and situps for me are harder, more space to travel.
In the Dojo we do an excercise wh ere you are in pushup position, you lower to your elbows and just LAY THERE.
Yeah looks easy, 45 seconds later half the people are falling out because it tightens the stomach muscles DAMN GOOD.
Newer techniques are working smarter, not harder. THe key is to be in shape.
I'm 44 and I have a bowflex body! (With out the bowflex)...
I will defend pushups and the run though, those are necessary.
I will defend that move for the Army - situps - I've seen overweight guys and sit ups do NOTHING for them yet they can knock them out all day long.
I'm tall and situps for me are harder, more space to travel.
In the Dojo we do an excercise wh ere you are in pushup position, you lower to your elbows and just LAY THERE.
Yeah looks easy, 45 seconds later half the people are falling out because it tightens the stomach muscles DAMN GOOD.
Newer techniques are working smarter, not harder. THe key is to be in shape.
I'm 44 and I have a bowflex body! (With out the bowflex)...
I will defend pushups and the run though, those are necessary.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
I'm a 19 year old going to the Marines in 13 days, does that count as being a young'un?
Joking aside the Army shouldn't lower the standards to accomadate those unwilling to get into shape. The whole premise of the extended runs isn't how fast it can be done. It's endurance. I played hockey for 12 years and we did what is called a crusher. Sprints from the goal line to the blue line and back, goal line to center line and back, goal line to far blue line and back, and goal line to goal and back, that was ONE. We would do that atleast 3 times a week for an hour. That's with 75-80lbs of gear on you as well not just skates.
It wasn't ment to punish us, it was ment to build endurance so that when our shift came during the game we could go all out without dropping like flies. It was just how things went for us for 6 months straight without pause. I fail to see how showing someone that they can physically exhausted and still carry on is ever a bad thing. Yes there are injuries, yes it weeds out the weak and promotes the strong, and yes it can be a real PITA while your body screams at you for rest but it makes you do better than you think you can, makes you step up to the challenge. If it was easy then it wouldn't be a challenge.
But hey I'm just that guy that's joining the Marines to play with cool toys and see if I can hang in there with the best of them so what do I know?
I'm a 19 year old going to the Marines in 13 days, does that count as being a young'un?
Joking aside the Army shouldn't lower the standards to accomadate those unwilling to get into shape. The whole premise of the extended runs isn't how fast it can be done. It's endurance. I played hockey for 12 years and we did what is called a crusher. Sprints from the goal line to the blue line and back, goal line to center line and back, goal line to far blue line and back, and goal line to goal and back, that was ONE. We would do that atleast 3 times a week for an hour. That's with 75-80lbs of gear on you as well not just skates.
It wasn't ment to punish us, it was ment to build endurance so that when our shift came during the game we could go all out without dropping like flies. It was just how things went for us for 6 months straight without pause. I fail to see how showing someone that they can physically exhausted and still carry on is ever a bad thing. Yes there are injuries, yes it weeds out the weak and promotes the strong, and yes it can be a real PITA while your body screams at you for rest but it makes you do better than you think you can, makes you step up to the challenge. If it was easy then it wouldn't be a challenge.
But hey I'm just that guy that's joining the Marines to play with cool toys and see if I can hang in there with the best of them so what do I know?
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
S&E is gonna lay scunion on you, ya maggot. Remind me of this when you graduate so I can call you something better
S&E is gonna lay scunion on you, ya maggot. Remind me of this when you graduate so I can call you something better
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
I was 19 when I was drafted into the Corps. We all were then.
My High School ran USMC PRT as part of the Gym curriculum at Essex Catholic H.S. in Newark NJ in 1964. I held the school record with 196 situps back before I was drafted.
I ran Cross Country Track with Marty Liquori and Jeremiah Washington on my same team, weighed 145lb and was 6' 5 1/2" tall when I went onto PI, 196lb when I graduated.
When I got into PI, I was an average recruit for those days.
My current exercises are to lie on my back, raise my butt roughly six inches off supported by shoulders and heels only, and stay there until I shake, then slowly restore and totally relax. This is followed by raising legs and shoulders roughly six inches off supported by butt only and staying until I shake, then slowly restoring and completely relaxing. During all of this the hands are folded relaxed across the abs. Do twenty of those each and you've spent an hour at least, at nearly full throttle. With my heart, it's all I can manage, but it's very effective, no matter what condition your heart's in. During the entire exercise, breathing is maintained at a normal rate, this is not an aerobic regimen; it's purely about core strength, stamina, muscle tone, and spinal alignment .
It's what I do if I wake up in the dark and can't get back to sleep, and every morning before I get up.
The Marines taught me to get up and hit the ground running. After trash can reveille, we had five minutes to be in formation outside on the grinder for our mile run, then morning chow call. I was squad leader from the time we got off the bus to the time we broke formation following graduation. My 'dutes' included putting the trash can back in its place. I loved being in my Corps, and I especially enjoyed PI. Everything else came second.
These days I am just a faint ghost of my physical self back then, but the spirit never breaks. Thanks, Chesty, wherever you are...
Greg
I was 19 when I was drafted into the Corps. We all were then.
My High School ran USMC PRT as part of the Gym curriculum at Essex Catholic H.S. in Newark NJ in 1964. I held the school record with 196 situps back before I was drafted.
I ran Cross Country Track with Marty Liquori and Jeremiah Washington on my same team, weighed 145lb and was 6' 5 1/2" tall when I went onto PI, 196lb when I graduated.
When I got into PI, I was an average recruit for those days.
My current exercises are to lie on my back, raise my butt roughly six inches off supported by shoulders and heels only, and stay there until I shake, then slowly restore and totally relax. This is followed by raising legs and shoulders roughly six inches off supported by butt only and staying until I shake, then slowly restoring and completely relaxing. During all of this the hands are folded relaxed across the abs. Do twenty of those each and you've spent an hour at least, at nearly full throttle. With my heart, it's all I can manage, but it's very effective, no matter what condition your heart's in. During the entire exercise, breathing is maintained at a normal rate, this is not an aerobic regimen; it's purely about core strength, stamina, muscle tone, and spinal alignment .
It's what I do if I wake up in the dark and can't get back to sleep, and every morning before I get up.
The Marines taught me to get up and hit the ground running. After trash can reveille, we had five minutes to be in formation outside on the grinder for our mile run, then morning chow call. I was squad leader from the time we got off the bus to the time we broke formation following graduation. My 'dutes' included putting the trash can back in its place. I loved being in my Corps, and I especially enjoyed PI. Everything else came second.
These days I am just a faint ghost of my physical self back then, but the spirit never breaks. Thanks, Chesty, wherever you are...
Greg
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
So its the Army Fault for over weight ft ass kids coming in the Army?
They only have 8 weeks to get them in shape right? Ok I see how its the Armys fault that parents these days do not care for there child.
John
So its the Army Fault for over weight ft ass kids coming in the Army?
They only have 8 weeks to get them in shape right? Ok I see how its the Armys fault that parents these days do not care for there child.
John
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
Keep in mind guys - We had an aerobic excerciser come to our BN one day and 100+ guys out doing PT laughing at this "Chick".
NONE, not ONE of us lasted more than 11 minutes.
That woman kept on going, and going, and going...
You can laugh and joke about being bad ass and doing 500 situps but situps don't give you enough.
Some of the new more modern excercises will do you better, and safer than the old die hard one's...
Keep in mind guys - We had an aerobic excerciser come to our BN one day and 100+ guys out doing PT laughing at this "Chick".
NONE, not ONE of us lasted more than 11 minutes.
That woman kept on going, and going, and going...
You can laugh and joke about being bad ass and doing 500 situps but situps don't give you enough.
Some of the new more modern excercises will do you better, and safer than the old die hard one's...
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
One of the units I was with had a female aerobics instructor two-days a week for PT. It was an all-male unit. We were laughing for about 5 minutes in the first session. Strength is one thing, but strength/coordination/balance is something completely different. To our credit we only fell down alot the first few weeks. To her credit, she completed a 12 mile forced march with us several months later. She looked a lot better after those PT sessions then she did after the march.
One of the units I was with had a female aerobics instructor two-days a week for PT. It was an all-male unit. We were laughing for about 5 minutes in the first session. Strength is one thing, but strength/coordination/balance is something completely different. To our credit we only fell down alot the first few weeks. To her credit, she completed a 12 mile forced march with us several months later. She looked a lot better after those PT sessions then she did after the march.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will defend that move for the Army - situps - I've seen overweight guys and sit ups do NOTHING for them yet they can knock them out all day long.
I'm tall and situps for me are harder, more space to travel.
In the Dojo we do an excercise wh ere you are in pushup position, you lower to your elbows and just LAY THERE.
Yeah looks easy, 45 seconds later half the people are falling out because it tightens the stomach muscles DAMN GOOD.
Newer techniques are working smarter, not harder. THe key is to be in shape.
I'm 44 and I have a bowflex body! (With out the bowflex)...
I will defend pushups and the run though, those are necessary. </div></div>
"The Plank" is a damn good exercise for sure! Try the 2 point version (take out the opposing foot and elbows) so that balance is involved as well...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will defend that move for the Army - situps - I've seen overweight guys and sit ups do NOTHING for them yet they can knock them out all day long.
I'm tall and situps for me are harder, more space to travel.
In the Dojo we do an excercise wh ere you are in pushup position, you lower to your elbows and just LAY THERE.
Yeah looks easy, 45 seconds later half the people are falling out because it tightens the stomach muscles DAMN GOOD.
Newer techniques are working smarter, not harder. THe key is to be in shape.
I'm 44 and I have a bowflex body! (With out the bowflex)...
I will defend pushups and the run though, those are necessary. </div></div>
"The Plank" is a damn good exercise for sure! Try the 2 point version (take out the opposing foot and elbows) so that balance is involved as well...
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love your guys attitude!! Train harder not smarter!!! Best way to get fat recruits out of the Army even faster is with your guys attitude. </div></div>
It's nothing to do with fat people. It sounds like we have a bun h of old codgers on here. It sounds like they are revising the training routine to improve the overall condition of the recruits. Things like yoga and pilates will build a lot of core and stability that old recruits never had. I dare one of you guys to try doing power yoga and not pass out halfway through. You don't need to run a million miles to get into cardiovascular shape.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jong</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love your guys attitude!! Train harder not smarter!!! Best way to get fat recruits out of the Army even faster is with your guys attitude. </div></div>
It's nothing to do with fat people. It sounds like we have a bun h of old codgers on here. It sounds like they are revising the training routine to improve the overall condition of the recruits. Things like yoga and pilates will build a lot of core and stability that old recruits never had. I dare one of you guys to try doing power yoga and not pass out halfway through. You don't need to run a million miles to get into cardiovascular shape.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
I had to push back my enlistment because I was over weight for their standards. I agree with implementing new types of workouts to make a overall better soldier as long as they are getting better. I worked my ass off to lose the 40 lbs that I needed to lose in order to enlist. I don't think working harder and not smarter is an appropriate saying I think you have to both work harder and smarter, because when it comes to combat being a lazy fat slob that plays video games all the time and can't muster up enough discipline and motivation to get off their asses and do something with their lives isn't going to cut it. Hopefully this new form of training will weed out those types of individuals.
I had to push back my enlistment because I was over weight for their standards. I agree with implementing new types of workouts to make a overall better soldier as long as they are getting better. I worked my ass off to lose the 40 lbs that I needed to lose in order to enlist. I don't think working harder and not smarter is an appropriate saying I think you have to both work harder and smarter, because when it comes to combat being a lazy fat slob that plays video games all the time and can't muster up enough discipline and motivation to get off their asses and do something with their lives isn't going to cut it. Hopefully this new form of training will weed out those types of individuals.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
The sad thing is that those fatass's are a direct reflection of our sorry, overweight, lazy, entitlement society!
If they put forth the effort we can fix them!! I had a "fatso" who showed up at Benning and he ran a 1 mile in about half an hour, yes 1/2 an hour aka 30 minutes to run 1 mile. We worked the ever living dog piss out of him!! At the end of basic he passed his PT test!! The kid had heart and was motivated to better himself which made the difference! We ran him twice a day. The kid put everything he had into every run! He lost a bunch of weight and was not only healthier, but stood taller, was proud of what he had achieved as were we.
Either way, our soldiers have been busy for the last bit busting their ass in Iraq and Afghanistan. Once the Ghan slows down things will begin to change. the Army is already bringing back the Quality Managment Program aka QMP. I'm hoping the Army will go back to the old appearence standards (I can't stand those little dumbass tatoos and crap on peoples necks, hearts, stars and some other gay crap) as it does not relate to a proffessional appearence.
I'm looking forward to torturing some kids on my "Fun Runs" aka ten milers.
The sad thing is that those fatass's are a direct reflection of our sorry, overweight, lazy, entitlement society!
If they put forth the effort we can fix them!! I had a "fatso" who showed up at Benning and he ran a 1 mile in about half an hour, yes 1/2 an hour aka 30 minutes to run 1 mile. We worked the ever living dog piss out of him!! At the end of basic he passed his PT test!! The kid had heart and was motivated to better himself which made the difference! We ran him twice a day. The kid put everything he had into every run! He lost a bunch of weight and was not only healthier, but stood taller, was proud of what he had achieved as were we.
Either way, our soldiers have been busy for the last bit busting their ass in Iraq and Afghanistan. Once the Ghan slows down things will begin to change. the Army is already bringing back the Quality Managment Program aka QMP. I'm hoping the Army will go back to the old appearence standards (I can't stand those little dumbass tatoos and crap on peoples necks, hearts, stars and some other gay crap) as it does not relate to a proffessional appearence.
I'm looking forward to torturing some kids on my "Fun Runs" aka ten milers.
Re: Army lessens standards.....again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So its the Army Fault for over weight ft ass kids coming in the Army?
They only have 8 weeks to get them in shape right? Ok I see how its the Armys fault that parents these days do not care for there child.
John </div></div>
It's never the parents fault. It's always everybody elses! Didn't you get the email?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So its the Army Fault for over weight ft ass kids coming in the Army?
They only have 8 weeks to get them in shape right? Ok I see how its the Armys fault that parents these days do not care for there child.
John </div></div>
It's never the parents fault. It's always everybody elses! Didn't you get the email?
TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
The services are recruiting from the available pool of Americans 17-43.
The pool is fat and soft with no mental toughness. It is largely an entitlement society that doesn't do daily physical education in school, and very little extracurricular sport or exercise.
Filter out those with minimal education, medical problems, and past moral/conviction problems and the remainder competes with the rest of the unemployed numbers for jobs across America, let alone between each individual service.
A basic/AIT failure or recycle means holes in units and bad numbers for Accessions Command. Pass the kid through Initial Entry training (including kids who have never passed a PT test) and the responsibility is passed to the field units (up to one year for the kid to pass his PT test).
Failure then becomes a Big Army problem as No-Gos are chaptered out as opposed to TRADOC being stuck with a non-production IET statistic from signing and swearing to reporting to first unit. Makes Recruiting and TRADOC look like pros while pissing off the Divisions.
The Army takes what it can get while we're in shooting wars since everyone's a volunteer and can vote with their feet after their enlistment is up.
The services are recruiting from the available pool of Americans 17-43.
The pool is fat and soft with no mental toughness. It is largely an entitlement society that doesn't do daily physical education in school, and very little extracurricular sport or exercise.
Filter out those with minimal education, medical problems, and past moral/conviction problems and the remainder competes with the rest of the unemployed numbers for jobs across America, let alone between each individual service.
A basic/AIT failure or recycle means holes in units and bad numbers for Accessions Command. Pass the kid through Initial Entry training (including kids who have never passed a PT test) and the responsibility is passed to the field units (up to one year for the kid to pass his PT test).
Failure then becomes a Big Army problem as No-Gos are chaptered out as opposed to TRADOC being stuck with a non-production IET statistic from signing and swearing to reporting to first unit. Makes Recruiting and TRADOC look like pros while pissing off the Divisions.
The Army takes what it can get while we're in shooting wars since everyone's a volunteer and can vote with their feet after their enlistment is up.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
Recruiters take what they can get to keep their number up. Meet or exceed quotas and you get a glowing performance report. Miss the quota and the recruiter becomes the below standard troop....
Drill/Training Instructors pass thos that don't make the grade to keep unit cohesion. AKA preserving ones performance report (see above) Too much trouble to boot out a sub-standard performer since it takes a couple of weeks max.
POS troop makes it to first unit. NCO makes or breaks him/her. Or does he? Some POS troops can be motivated to perform. Some slip through the cracks because good performance reports are not questioned. The less than perfect troop requires detailed documentation to push their report through.
Now the POS is the unit's problem. So, instead of not letting the POS in the service, or booting him out when he shows lackluster performance. The NCOs at the unit level spend the next two to three years creating a package justifying why the person does not meet standards.
This attitude causes waaay too much time to be wasted on the POS when the time would be better spent training/qualifying the GOOD troops.
The good troops deserve our attention so they can become great troops. The POS should have been booted out when it was easy in Basic training....
If you are a recruiter or DI/TI be a man and stand up for what is right. If it causes you to take a hit on your performance report, too bad. If you really are the cream of the crop, you can get promoted with a less-than-perfect performance report!!!
Flame suit on!
Recruiters take what they can get to keep their number up. Meet or exceed quotas and you get a glowing performance report. Miss the quota and the recruiter becomes the below standard troop....
Drill/Training Instructors pass thos that don't make the grade to keep unit cohesion. AKA preserving ones performance report (see above) Too much trouble to boot out a sub-standard performer since it takes a couple of weeks max.
POS troop makes it to first unit. NCO makes or breaks him/her. Or does he? Some POS troops can be motivated to perform. Some slip through the cracks because good performance reports are not questioned. The less than perfect troop requires detailed documentation to push their report through.
Now the POS is the unit's problem. So, instead of not letting the POS in the service, or booting him out when he shows lackluster performance. The NCOs at the unit level spend the next two to three years creating a package justifying why the person does not meet standards.
This attitude causes waaay too much time to be wasted on the POS when the time would be better spent training/qualifying the GOOD troops.
The good troops deserve our attention so they can become great troops. The POS should have been booted out when it was easy in Basic training....
If you are a recruiter or DI/TI be a man and stand up for what is right. If it causes you to take a hit on your performance report, too bad. If you really are the cream of the crop, you can get promoted with a less-than-perfect performance report!!!
Flame suit on!
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
Mr Casselton,
I'm interested in your vast amount of experience that enables you to draw such conclusions about the vicissitudes of life for the unfortunate man that finds himself under the command of:
MG Donald Campbell
T: 502-626-0509 ; DSN: 536-0509
[email protected]
That's the contact info for the USAREC CG.
While things are much better in USAWRECK these days- it never hurts to let those at the top know that as a concerned citizen ( and possible vet?) you want only the best- projected numbers and actual ability to produce said soldiers be damned.
Make sure you let him know that the Recruiters should not be mistreated or otherwise face "the man" for not putting in their 2 per month. Especially with the citizenry driven campaign of quality over quantity and all.
What fantasyland military did you ETS from?
You're blaming NCOs but ya know what? I never saw a SGT's signature on the paperwork to boot a man.
That honor generally belongs to occifers.
Mr Casselton,
I'm interested in your vast amount of experience that enables you to draw such conclusions about the vicissitudes of life for the unfortunate man that finds himself under the command of:
MG Donald Campbell
T: 502-626-0509 ; DSN: 536-0509
[email protected]
That's the contact info for the USAREC CG.
While things are much better in USAWRECK these days- it never hurts to let those at the top know that as a concerned citizen ( and possible vet?) you want only the best- projected numbers and actual ability to produce said soldiers be damned.
Make sure you let him know that the Recruiters should not be mistreated or otherwise face "the man" for not putting in their 2 per month. Especially with the citizenry driven campaign of quality over quantity and all.
What fantasyland military did you ETS from?
You're blaming NCOs but ya know what? I never saw a SGT's signature on the paperwork to boot a man.
That honor generally belongs to occifers.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike Casselton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recruiters take what they can get to keep their number up. Meet or exceed quotas and you get a glowing performance report. Miss the quota and the recruiter becomes the below standard troop....
Drill/Training Instructors pass thos that don't make the grade to keep unit cohesion. AKA preserving ones performance report (see above) Too much trouble to boot out a sub-standard performer since it takes a couple of weeks max.
POS troop makes it to first unit. NCO makes or breaks him/her. Or does he? Some POS troops can be motivated to perform. Some slip through the cracks because good performance reports are not questioned. The less than perfect troop requires detailed documentation to push their report through.
Now the POS is the unit's problem. So, instead of not letting the POS in the service, or booting him out when he shows lackluster performance. The NCOs at the unit level spend the next two to three years creating a package justifying why the person does not meet standards.
This attitude causes waaay too much time to be wasted on the POS when the time would be better spent training/qualifying the GOOD troops.
The good troops deserve our attention so they can become great troops. The POS should have been booted out when it was easy in Basic training....
<span style="font-weight: bold">If you are a recruiter or DI/TI be a man and stand up for what is right. If it causes you to take a hit on your performance report, too bad. If you really are the cream of the crop, you can get promoted with a less-than-perfect performance report!!!</span>
Flame suit on! </div></div>
As a Marine grunt, I couldn't agree with you more that the recruiters and instructors should hold their standards high. As a platoon sergeant I learned well that 90% of your time is spent on the shithead 10% of your men, so I do wish we didn't get the turds in the combat units. It would be nice if it really did work that way, but that is a fairy tale world.
As someone who also did a recruiting tour from 03-06 and saw the other side, the ugly side, I have to side with the reality of maintaining a large all volunteer force in wartime. And it's not just a hit on your performance report, it can be the end of your career and you and your family surviving off of food stamps. Don't blame the instructors either, as we all have the same Commanding General giving the same orders to all of us: Fill boots or fill employment applications.
The stark reality is that the vast majority of service age Americans fall into one of the following categories: Fat, weak, stupid, druggie, criminal, lazy, wimp, or uneducated, and most of the rest actually have good jobs or are going to college with zero desire to join the military.
The fine qualified American youth with the fortitude to take that step into a wartime military force make up 90% of our fighting force. The rest got waivers. Don't like the waivers, well, how about a helping hand to the recruiters out there.
Here's my question for the forum: <span style="font-weight: bold">What have you done to help the recruiters find the guys that the services need?</span> We vets and active members of the services are the best source out there to find the ones that are desirable to the Armed Forces. If every vet in America would just find one good candidate every 4 years to join, our all volunteer force would have no problem upholding its high standards.
You raised your right hand, did your time and your duty, but did you find your replacement? If not, do the country a favor and find him. You see them every day at your grocery store, church, work, or maybe even in your own home. Talk to him for a couple minutes, get his name and number, and drop it by the recruiter's office. They'll take care of the rest.
Only then will the recruiters quit getting waivers for the fatties and criminals, because they just want to make mission for the first time in months so they can have dinner with their family at a decent hour instead of calling snot nose kids at 8 o'clock at night to ask them if they want to go to war.
My $0.02......
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mike Casselton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Recruiters take what they can get to keep their number up. Meet or exceed quotas and you get a glowing performance report. Miss the quota and the recruiter becomes the below standard troop....
Drill/Training Instructors pass thos that don't make the grade to keep unit cohesion. AKA preserving ones performance report (see above) Too much trouble to boot out a sub-standard performer since it takes a couple of weeks max.
POS troop makes it to first unit. NCO makes or breaks him/her. Or does he? Some POS troops can be motivated to perform. Some slip through the cracks because good performance reports are not questioned. The less than perfect troop requires detailed documentation to push their report through.
Now the POS is the unit's problem. So, instead of not letting the POS in the service, or booting him out when he shows lackluster performance. The NCOs at the unit level spend the next two to three years creating a package justifying why the person does not meet standards.
This attitude causes waaay too much time to be wasted on the POS when the time would be better spent training/qualifying the GOOD troops.
The good troops deserve our attention so they can become great troops. The POS should have been booted out when it was easy in Basic training....
<span style="font-weight: bold">If you are a recruiter or DI/TI be a man and stand up for what is right. If it causes you to take a hit on your performance report, too bad. If you really are the cream of the crop, you can get promoted with a less-than-perfect performance report!!!</span>
Flame suit on! </div></div>
As a Marine grunt, I couldn't agree with you more that the recruiters and instructors should hold their standards high. As a platoon sergeant I learned well that 90% of your time is spent on the shithead 10% of your men, so I do wish we didn't get the turds in the combat units. It would be nice if it really did work that way, but that is a fairy tale world.
As someone who also did a recruiting tour from 03-06 and saw the other side, the ugly side, I have to side with the reality of maintaining a large all volunteer force in wartime. And it's not just a hit on your performance report, it can be the end of your career and you and your family surviving off of food stamps. Don't blame the instructors either, as we all have the same Commanding General giving the same orders to all of us: Fill boots or fill employment applications.
The stark reality is that the vast majority of service age Americans fall into one of the following categories: Fat, weak, stupid, druggie, criminal, lazy, wimp, or uneducated, and most of the rest actually have good jobs or are going to college with zero desire to join the military.
The fine qualified American youth with the fortitude to take that step into a wartime military force make up 90% of our fighting force. The rest got waivers. Don't like the waivers, well, how about a helping hand to the recruiters out there.
Here's my question for the forum: <span style="font-weight: bold">What have you done to help the recruiters find the guys that the services need?</span> We vets and active members of the services are the best source out there to find the ones that are desirable to the Armed Forces. If every vet in America would just find one good candidate every 4 years to join, our all volunteer force would have no problem upholding its high standards.
You raised your right hand, did your time and your duty, but did you find your replacement? If not, do the country a favor and find him. You see them every day at your grocery store, church, work, or maybe even in your own home. Talk to him for a couple minutes, get his name and number, and drop it by the recruiter's office. They'll take care of the rest.
Only then will the recruiters quit getting waivers for the fatties and criminals, because they just want to make mission for the first time in months so they can have dinner with their family at a decent hour instead of calling snot nose kids at 8 o'clock at night to ask them if they want to go to war.
My $0.02......
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
Redmanns-
+1
Recruiting was my least favorite time in. Insane hours for no reason, extreme pressure about things outside our hands, and the COC just didn't get it because they had all ridden the coat-tails of 9/11 and the wave of enlistments that followed.
Redmanns-
+1
Recruiting was my least favorite time in. Insane hours for no reason, extreme pressure about things outside our hands, and the COC just didn't get it because they had all ridden the coat-tails of 9/11 and the wave of enlistments that followed.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
CavScout1983,
+1 right back at you. I cussed recruiters for the first 11 years until I became one. A true eye opener indeed. I was far from the best recruiter out there but at least I left with my integrity intact, which is a lot more than a lot of the so-called "successful" recruiters can say.
One thing is for sure though, America's youth had better wake up, put the fork and the XBox controller down, and start doing SOMETHING or they may be headed for a rough surprise in their future. Their lethargy may not be making a significant impact on national defense yet, but let's see where we stand after another decade of fast food domination of diets.
CavScout1983,
+1 right back at you. I cussed recruiters for the first 11 years until I became one. A true eye opener indeed. I was far from the best recruiter out there but at least I left with my integrity intact, which is a lot more than a lot of the so-called "successful" recruiters can say.
One thing is for sure though, America's youth had better wake up, put the fork and the XBox controller down, and start doing SOMETHING or they may be headed for a rough surprise in their future. Their lethargy may not be making a significant impact on national defense yet, but let's see where we stand after another decade of fast food domination of diets.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CavScout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr Casselton,
I'm interested in your vast amount of experience that enables you to draw such conclusions about the vicissitudes of life for the unfortunate man that finds himself under the command of:
MG Donald Campbell
T: 502-626-0509 ; DSN: 536-0509
[email protected]
That's the contact info for the USAREC CG.
While things are much better in USAWRECK these days- it never hurts to let those at the top know that as a concerned citizen ( and possible vet?) you want only the best- projected numbers and actual ability to produce said soldiers be damned.
Make sure you let him know that the Recruiters should not be mistreated or otherwise face "the man" for not putting in their 2 per month. Especially with the citizenry driven campaign of quality over quantity and all.
What fantasyland military did you ETS from?
You're blaming NCOs but ya know what? I never saw a SGT's signature on the paperwork to boot a man.
That honor generally belongs to occifers. </div></div>
Cav, I feel your pain. Yes I am a 21 year veteran even though it was in the chAir Force, :^) I had my share of shit commanders and 2nd louies to work under, Even my share of "me first" type NCO's. I dispised every one of them that was out for themselves at the expense of their troops.
Had plenty of friends that got dragged into recruiting and training. All of them faced the same shit quotas that you and others mentioned. It's a bad rap that no good NCO should face. The standing in front of the man mentality does not make a person produce good results. It teaches him to cut every corner to produce numbers. A pure shit thing to face every day at work.
If I thought a phone call or e-mail would make a difference, I would be the first in line to do so. Unfortunately, you and I know it would fall on deaf ears.
After retirement, I worked at MacDill AFB for a couple of years. I had plenty of interaction with O-6 and above. I let them know my feelings on the quality of the current and past troops. Even had some talks on the BS pressure recruiters are put under. The general (no pun intended) answer I got was "what am I supposed to do about it?" Basically, they didn't want to deal with it. Some even felt it was the responsibility of unit NCO's to weed out the POS. Apparently that is the Academy mindset. Occifers just sign the paperwork...
You said that I blame the NCO's. Maybe a little. It's not completely our fault. But if we NCO's don't train and condition our O-1's to think like us, then we are doomed with the BS mindset that the O club teaches them. Even as a retiree/civilian, I feel it is my responsibility to "Train my boss".
Retirement is so nice. I do miss some things about active duty, but not the long term problem that we are discussing. Good thing about civilian life is I can fire the shit worker and I don't even have to explain anything to them. (even though I always gave them a detailed reason why I let them go)
Seriously Cav, I feel your pain.
From one NCO to another, thank you for your service and sacrifice.
For the post about recruiting your replacement, I try to do my part to get at least four people a year talked into service. If I had a larger social group, I'm sure I could up that number.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CavScout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr Casselton,
I'm interested in your vast amount of experience that enables you to draw such conclusions about the vicissitudes of life for the unfortunate man that finds himself under the command of:
MG Donald Campbell
T: 502-626-0509 ; DSN: 536-0509
[email protected]
That's the contact info for the USAREC CG.
While things are much better in USAWRECK these days- it never hurts to let those at the top know that as a concerned citizen ( and possible vet?) you want only the best- projected numbers and actual ability to produce said soldiers be damned.
Make sure you let him know that the Recruiters should not be mistreated or otherwise face "the man" for not putting in their 2 per month. Especially with the citizenry driven campaign of quality over quantity and all.
What fantasyland military did you ETS from?
You're blaming NCOs but ya know what? I never saw a SGT's signature on the paperwork to boot a man.
That honor generally belongs to occifers. </div></div>
Cav, I feel your pain. Yes I am a 21 year veteran even though it was in the chAir Force, :^) I had my share of shit commanders and 2nd louies to work under, Even my share of "me first" type NCO's. I dispised every one of them that was out for themselves at the expense of their troops.
Had plenty of friends that got dragged into recruiting and training. All of them faced the same shit quotas that you and others mentioned. It's a bad rap that no good NCO should face. The standing in front of the man mentality does not make a person produce good results. It teaches him to cut every corner to produce numbers. A pure shit thing to face every day at work.
If I thought a phone call or e-mail would make a difference, I would be the first in line to do so. Unfortunately, you and I know it would fall on deaf ears.
After retirement, I worked at MacDill AFB for a couple of years. I had plenty of interaction with O-6 and above. I let them know my feelings on the quality of the current and past troops. Even had some talks on the BS pressure recruiters are put under. The general (no pun intended) answer I got was "what am I supposed to do about it?" Basically, they didn't want to deal with it. Some even felt it was the responsibility of unit NCO's to weed out the POS. Apparently that is the Academy mindset. Occifers just sign the paperwork...
You said that I blame the NCO's. Maybe a little. It's not completely our fault. But if we NCO's don't train and condition our O-1's to think like us, then we are doomed with the BS mindset that the O club teaches them. Even as a retiree/civilian, I feel it is my responsibility to "Train my boss".
Retirement is so nice. I do miss some things about active duty, but not the long term problem that we are discussing. Good thing about civilian life is I can fire the shit worker and I don't even have to explain anything to them. (even though I always gave them a detailed reason why I let them go)
Seriously Cav, I feel your pain.
From one NCO to another, thank you for your service and sacrifice.
For the post about recruiting your replacement, I try to do my part to get at least four people a year talked into service. If I had a larger social group, I'm sure I could up that number.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
it's not just recruits really.... you don't have to pass a PT test to graduate NCOES now either
it's not just recruits really.... you don't have to pass a PT test to graduate NCOES now either
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CavScout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr Casselton,
I'm interested in your vast amount of experience that enables you to draw such conclusions about the vicissitudes of life for the unfortunate man that finds himself under the command of:
MG Donald Campbell
T: 502-626-0509 ; DSN: 536-0509
[email protected]
That's the contact info for the USAREC CG.
While things are much better in USAWRECK these days- it never hurts to let those at the top know that as a concerned citizen ( and possible vet?) you want only the best- projected numbers and actual ability to produce said soldiers be damned.
Make sure you let him know that the Recruiters should not be mistreated or otherwise face "the man" for not putting in their 2 per month. Especially with the citizenry driven campaign of quality over quantity and all.
What fantasyland military did you ETS from?
You're blaming NCOs but ya know what? I never saw a SGT's signature on the paperwork to boot a man.
That honor generally belongs to occifers. </div></div>
Wasn't he the 101st Div CDR about 2-3 years ago?
One thing I will say and have expressed is that basic training needs to stay "hard"!!
Or should I say go back to being challenging as opposed to today. Drills and leaders attempt as best they can to make it challenging and worthwhile for the soldiers to learn and prepare for military service but there are constraints. It is understood that there are requirements and safety concerns which need to be met but with the application of common sense I think a satisfactory middle ground could be found.
The kids don't want an easy, candy basic! They didn't join for that. They want to be challenged! The few rotations that I had, I heard the same things!
I provided my drills a lot of room as long as they excersised common sense and professionalism, failure to do that and my 1SG crushed their nuts! If problems persisted then it elevated to me and you would leave shortly after but it never came to that (the drills I had were impressively professional!)!
Back in the day I had filled 255 privates which included hold overs and rehabilitative transfers (the kids the other guys didn't or couldn't handle). I only graduated 205 from that class. I also had an excellent BN CDR who backed me up! Sometimes you get a good class and sometimes you don't! We maintained the standards and gave everyone an equal/fair try!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CavScout1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr Casselton,
I'm interested in your vast amount of experience that enables you to draw such conclusions about the vicissitudes of life for the unfortunate man that finds himself under the command of:
MG Donald Campbell
T: 502-626-0509 ; DSN: 536-0509
[email protected]
That's the contact info for the USAREC CG.
While things are much better in USAWRECK these days- it never hurts to let those at the top know that as a concerned citizen ( and possible vet?) you want only the best- projected numbers and actual ability to produce said soldiers be damned.
Make sure you let him know that the Recruiters should not be mistreated or otherwise face "the man" for not putting in their 2 per month. Especially with the citizenry driven campaign of quality over quantity and all.
What fantasyland military did you ETS from?
You're blaming NCOs but ya know what? I never saw a SGT's signature on the paperwork to boot a man.
That honor generally belongs to occifers. </div></div>
Wasn't he the 101st Div CDR about 2-3 years ago?
One thing I will say and have expressed is that basic training needs to stay "hard"!!
Or should I say go back to being challenging as opposed to today. Drills and leaders attempt as best they can to make it challenging and worthwhile for the soldiers to learn and prepare for military service but there are constraints. It is understood that there are requirements and safety concerns which need to be met but with the application of common sense I think a satisfactory middle ground could be found.
The kids don't want an easy, candy basic! They didn't join for that. They want to be challenged! The few rotations that I had, I heard the same things!
I provided my drills a lot of room as long as they excersised common sense and professionalism, failure to do that and my 1SG crushed their nuts! If problems persisted then it elevated to me and you would leave shortly after but it never came to that (the drills I had were impressively professional!)!
Back in the day I had filled 255 privates which included hold overs and rehabilitative transfers (the kids the other guys didn't or couldn't handle). I only graduated 205 from that class. I also had an excellent BN CDR who backed me up! Sometimes you get a good class and sometimes you don't! We maintained the standards and gave everyone an equal/fair try!
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
What have I done? Good question.
The youth programs I have served within for decades have given me a window into a substantial pool of potential candidates. I have made it abundantly clear that I am a USMC Combat Veteran.
This leads to inquiries on the parts of the young lads and ladies.
My response is both continuous and specific. The continuous part is to behave in the manner of a positive role model. The specific part is to generally and gently attempt to discourage enlistment.
This tends to weed out the ones who are weakly committed, or indistinct in their aims.
The ones who persist are given advice about how to become a desirable candidate, on moral, ethical, and physical bases. When I think they're ready, I tell them, and if requested, will provide them with bona fides in my name on their behalf. Their parents are always treated as active participants in this process.
Several young people have served (and some still serve) in the Army, Marines, and Coast Guard following these interventions.
Greg
What have I done? Good question.
The youth programs I have served within for decades have given me a window into a substantial pool of potential candidates. I have made it abundantly clear that I am a USMC Combat Veteran.
This leads to inquiries on the parts of the young lads and ladies.
My response is both continuous and specific. The continuous part is to behave in the manner of a positive role model. The specific part is to generally and gently attempt to discourage enlistment.
This tends to weed out the ones who are weakly committed, or indistinct in their aims.
The ones who persist are given advice about how to become a desirable candidate, on moral, ethical, and physical bases. When I think they're ready, I tell them, and if requested, will provide them with bona fides in my name on their behalf. Their parents are always treated as active participants in this process.
Several young people have served (and some still serve) in the Army, Marines, and Coast Guard following these interventions.
Greg
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
What kills me is guys can't do the minimum requirements for the PT test, I have gained an ass load of weight since my injury in theater back in 2006, I was medically retired (still no excuse, I am working on it). And even though I am a fat slop now, I can still score a 260 on the 17-21 age group on the army PT test I am 28 now. I did pt with a local National Guard unit and I was horrified to see some of the scores. I bet a quarter of unit failed outright and this was a infantry unit. Back in the day when I was in Korea (2000), we had a guy who was really over weight (over 300ibs active duty) but he scored a perfect 300 on his pt test, he ran a 13:30 or some crazy shit, and he could ruck forever. Never came close to passing the tape test which caused him not to get promoted but really what do you do with a guy like that? He was a good soldier, just overweight
What kills me is guys can't do the minimum requirements for the PT test, I have gained an ass load of weight since my injury in theater back in 2006, I was medically retired (still no excuse, I am working on it). And even though I am a fat slop now, I can still score a 260 on the 17-21 age group on the army PT test I am 28 now. I did pt with a local National Guard unit and I was horrified to see some of the scores. I bet a quarter of unit failed outright and this was a infantry unit. Back in the day when I was in Korea (2000), we had a guy who was really over weight (over 300ibs active duty) but he scored a perfect 300 on his pt test, he ran a 13:30 or some crazy shit, and he could ruck forever. Never came close to passing the tape test which caused him not to get promoted but really what do you do with a guy like that? He was a good soldier, just overweight
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
I recently watched that show on Discovery about SF selection, and I don't know if it is a case of time vs. memory, but it seems like the selection now is harder than when I went through in 99. Specifically the show has the guys doing log PT at the very beginning of selection and I recall doing it at the very end, and I don't remember it being that traumatic! Plus they didn't have all that technology at the time to nail roadwalkers, etc. during the land nav portion. Team week is Team week and it sucks, but it seems like in the show the instructors were more in your face and when I did you hardly knew they were around, they just quietly watched.
I think that the regular army's standards may have dropped in the last few years, but it appears at least that USASFC's hasn't.
Also as a former NCO who had troops, the process of trying to get one booted is almost impossible unless a felony is involved. I even had a guy go AWOL for close to a month and all they did was move him to a different battalion within the brigade. Maybe it's easier in a combat arms unit, but in a combat support unit its pretty much impossible.
I recently watched that show on Discovery about SF selection, and I don't know if it is a case of time vs. memory, but it seems like the selection now is harder than when I went through in 99. Specifically the show has the guys doing log PT at the very beginning of selection and I recall doing it at the very end, and I don't remember it being that traumatic! Plus they didn't have all that technology at the time to nail roadwalkers, etc. during the land nav portion. Team week is Team week and it sucks, but it seems like in the show the instructors were more in your face and when I did you hardly knew they were around, they just quietly watched.
I think that the regular army's standards may have dropped in the last few years, but it appears at least that USASFC's hasn't.
Also as a former NCO who had troops, the process of trying to get one booted is almost impossible unless a felony is involved. I even had a guy go AWOL for close to a month and all they did was move him to a different battalion within the brigade. Maybe it's easier in a combat arms unit, but in a combat support unit its pretty much impossible.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sad thing is that those fatass's are a direct reflection of our sorry, overweight, lazy, entitlement society!
If they put forth the effort we can fix them!!
I'm hoping the Army will go back to the old appearence standards (I can't stand those little dumbass tatoos and crap on peoples necks, hearts, stars and some other gay crap) as it does not relate to a proffessional appearence.</div></div>
Agree on all counts. I'm around Bragg a lot and most guys and girls are in fighting trim and generally have the same kind of proud military bearing I was accustomed to while in. Two weeks ago I was near Fort Jackson, SC and saw quite a few troopies and NCOs out and about, and the difference was striking. At least 75% of the EMs I saw and spoke with looked like someone took Joe Shit the Ragman off the street and threw a set of ACUs on his/her fat ass. No bearing nor pride whatsoever.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The sad thing is that those fatass's are a direct reflection of our sorry, overweight, lazy, entitlement society!
If they put forth the effort we can fix them!!
I'm hoping the Army will go back to the old appearence standards (I can't stand those little dumbass tatoos and crap on peoples necks, hearts, stars and some other gay crap) as it does not relate to a proffessional appearence.</div></div>
Agree on all counts. I'm around Bragg a lot and most guys and girls are in fighting trim and generally have the same kind of proud military bearing I was accustomed to while in. Two weeks ago I was near Fort Jackson, SC and saw quite a few troopies and NCOs out and about, and the difference was striking. At least 75% of the EMs I saw and spoke with looked like someone took Joe Shit the Ragman off the street and threw a set of ACUs on his/her fat ass. No bearing nor pride whatsoever.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
I think that this is all due to change rather soon.
Manpower demands are likely, IMHO, to dry up quickly with the likely withdrawal/redeployment phase of overseas troops that I see coming down the near roadway. I think we are about to enter into a period similar to the Post-Vietnam drawdown era.
Pretty soon you'll need to be a perfect candidate with connections to get into the military.
That's my guess.
Greg
I think that this is all due to change rather soon.
Manpower demands are likely, IMHO, to dry up quickly with the likely withdrawal/redeployment phase of overseas troops that I see coming down the near roadway. I think we are about to enter into a period similar to the Post-Vietnam drawdown era.
Pretty soon you'll need to be a perfect candidate with connections to get into the military.
That's my guess.
Greg
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manpower demands are likely, IMHO, to dry up quickly with the likely withdrawal/redeployment phase of overseas troops that I see coming down the near roadway. I think we are about to enter into a period similar to the Post-Vietnam drawdown era.
</div></div>
Didn't happen during the Clinton administration -- in fact we were on more ding-dong expeditions than I can remember. Remember Les Aspin (Somalia) and Madeleine Albright? We were on expedition all over the world (including Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo) with a SMALLER force.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Manpower demands are likely, IMHO, to dry up quickly with the likely withdrawal/redeployment phase of overseas troops that I see coming down the near roadway. I think we are about to enter into a period similar to the Post-Vietnam drawdown era.
</div></div>
Didn't happen during the Clinton administration -- in fact we were on more ding-dong expeditions than I can remember. Remember Les Aspin (Somalia) and Madeleine Albright? We were on expedition all over the world (including Haiti, Bosnia, and Kosovo) with a SMALLER force.
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
Hope you're right; but these days, <span style="font-style: italic">who</span> knows?
Hope you're right; but these days, <span style="font-style: italic">who</span> knows?
Re: TRADOC -- if the Soldier Can't Meet the Standard,
If I were the American Military Leadership, I'd probably be very short lived, 'cause I'd be handing these armchair general politicians their asses over the way they've been screwing over the American soldier every which way but loose. Sometimes, the only real way you can help your troops is to tell the truth and take the bullet. I don't see very many of such folks around DC these days. I guess the smart ones 'pulled a Petraeus', probably without the declaration, and bailed out long ago. IMHO, this is not a good time to be in US Service.
If I were the American Military Leadership, I'd probably be very short lived, 'cause I'd be handing these armchair general politicians their asses over the way they've been screwing over the American soldier every which way but loose. Sometimes, the only real way you can help your troops is to tell the truth and take the bullet. I don't see very many of such folks around DC these days. I guess the smart ones 'pulled a Petraeus', probably without the declaration, and bailed out long ago. IMHO, this is not a good time to be in US Service.
