Artillery/Mortar operators, enlighten me

[Forgetful Coyote]

Let me start by saying I dont own and have never operated a Howitzer/Mortar/Field Gun; its just something that has always piqued my interest. Im not looking for any classified/sensitive information and dont plan to put any of this to use.

Im mainly wondering, from an outsiders point of view it seems as if 155mm and 105mm Howitzers work very much like a rifle. It would seem like they are aimed much like a very long range rifle.

1) My question is, what all factors do you take into account when aiming a Howitzer?
2)Is there a ballistic coefficient/drag coefficient that you take into account with the projectile?
3)Do you ever try to measure/take into account wind speed/direction?
4)Do the same principles apply for Howitzers as for rifles, in that heavier bullets usually always give you better SD/BC and generally get you better accuracy at long range? Or do lighter projos give you better long range accuracy on account of higher muzzle velocity and lower flight time?
5)What measurement do you use when making adjustments; MOA, Milliradian, Degrees?
6)And lastly, say at a distance of 15 miles, what kind of accuracy could you expect with a 155?

Sorry for the long post and thanks for any answers.

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

I'll try to answer your questions, it has been almost 20 years since I was in arty.

The observer (FIST) calls Fire Direction Control (FDC) with a target, there are several ways a FIST can give FDC directions to a target but we'll just keep it simple and say he gives grid coordinates.

FDC processes the info into stuff that the guns can use that is range and deflection (in meters and mils). Also FDC will tell the guns what powder charge to use, what type of projectile and fuse to use, and when to fire. Powder charge is measured in type of powder and amount. Powder types are sorted by color, and weight is measured in bags. So the FDC officer will consult a chart based on range and projectile and order a charge of say "5, green bag". The gun bunnys will tear off five bags of green powder and drop them in the shell.Howitzers differ from rifles in that the crew shooting the gun probably can't see the target, and if they can they are probably in deep shit. Also the barrel of a howitzer can be elevated to fire "high angle" like a mortar.


So to answer your questions.
1)First the guns must be laid, not as much fun as it sounds. Survey does this. After the guns are laid FDC can give range and deflection to targets to get rounds on target.
2)Sure, but it doesn't always work like bullets. Remember an arty shell might be HE, DPICM, flare or even a nuke. So balance and BC is something to take into account but not as important as rifle shooting. Getting a first round hit is great but rare. Most missions are adjust fire. You send a round out and the observer calls in adjustments to get on target based on where the shell hits.
3)Yes, a METT report is used to figure in just about everything that effects a projectile in flight.
4)See 2 above about accuracy.
5)Mil & meters
6)Range doesn't matter, you probably won't get a first round hit, when you get close to your target you just drop enough crap to get the job done. If a round of shells doesn't do it the FIST guy will order up another round. The BC always bought a case of beer for the first battery to get a "steel on steel" hit, that is a shell actually hitting a specific target like a tank. Sooner or later someone would get one but more often than not shells just hit close enough to get the job done.

I'm sure I've forgotten a bunch of stuff and someone will correct me or fill in some blanks.

 

[Strickland]

Good Reply Wes. I'll try to add some also. Same here, been about 20 years since I yanked a lanyard.

1. Yes, all the same factors are used when firing howitzers. FDC has the computers and inputs all the information.

2. They pick a round based upon the type of mission. Each round has its own info, i.e. weight. When you want to generally blow shit up, HE (high explosive). When you want to mark, shoot a WP (White phosphorus). At night, illum round.

3. You have a METT team (meteorological) that provides the various infomation to the FDC people. Wind speed not so much because you are shooting as such high altitudes. However, temp, humidty, baro pressure are accounted for.

4. See #2.

5. already answered.

6. Accuracy isn't what you would see in a rifle. Within 50m is generally considered a good strike. Usually one tube is used to get on target and then the rest of the battery lights someones ass up. When you have 4-6-8 tubes sending HE rounds, it's more for mass effect on target than a singular hit. When I was in we shot the M198. Max distance was 18k meters (or about 12 miles). Not sure what the range of the new tube are.

Party with Arty!

 

[sharac]

For 82mm mortar (i was the barrel mule and aim person/leader of a weapon):

1. Weapon must be level (2 bubbles on aim device) and dug in or if firing from concrete/asphalt certain barrel angle limits are imposed (ie not below 60° for concrete i think), if firing over a hill (not direct fire) a zero line is established and marked with a pole other weapons in a group are using firing solution of the first weapon otherwise direct fire via aim device optics. With each shell you get a primary charge (like a large shotgun shell inside a tail) and several (6 i think) "horseshoe" shaped powder charges to be attached to the tail of the shell. You've got firing solutions in a table where range is primary column and firing solution (no of charges and barrel inclination) given. There were several different shells (light with parachute, HE or general purpose and smoke shell) so several different tables are given for each of those types (i think even available online somewhere ). Fuse had an activation device (ball which was forced under firing pin when fired) so if dropped "should" be perfectly safe as procedure for clearing a misfire required barrel to be tilted and shell slid out and lucky aim person tasked with catching it.
2. Nope up it goes and down it falls hopefully somewhere within few tenths of meters of intended target its not really a factor as firing is at great parabola and effects of wind and initial solution are so great that BC is a non factor
3. Yes local standard meteo report is used (battalion level general report if i'm not mistaken) if not available improvisation if concealment is not an issue (weather balloon etc...) worst case you let one fly and then compensate.
4. Accuracy hell yeah sir we've hit that hill overthere yes sir that one oh you meant that one to the right no prob will fix it next time we should be few hundreds closer...
5. Mils always
6. 82mm is a minute of a hill Seriously in direct fire with known weather (no wind gusts) and good firing solution up to 3km somewhere in the 100m circle would be acceptable. The best i've shot was somewhere 30m@2500m and the subsequent shots greatly depend on loader and type of surface as after each shot weapon gets moved and has to be either leveled again (can be done between shots if team is very skilled) and line reacquired (leveling is a two man task with loader moving one axis and aim person second while controlling both levels)
7. Those in Afganistan can check them out (though i have no idea why someone would be interested in them ) as i've heard all were given away to Afgan army few years back.

Now after this dejavu i'm going to find some 82mm lead pipe strap it to my back and go to the local hill to get it out of my system...

 

[sinister]

You are correct in that a howitzer, rifled cannon, or rifled mortar are all rifles.

In the fire direction center (FDC) in the age before electronics you had an M16 plotting board (for mortars up to 81mm) or an artillery firing board for rifled mortars 107mm / 4.2 inches and up). Off your map you would plot where you were (the guns/section/battery's known location) and plotted a general downrange area you wanted them to point to. The gun line was given that direction (as instructions for deflection) and all guns were set in (two 60mm mortars in an infantry company, 4 81mm in a mortar platoon, and up to four guns in a Combat Support Company or artillery battery, with #2 gun the base gun everyone else adjusts off of).

The FDC guys would calculate all manner of math, plotting so that you don't have to monkey with varying charge weights over the course of a single engagement. Mortars (being high angle guns) will generally try to use the lowest charge and elevation to minimize group dispersion while the projo is exposed to winds over time (like any other rifle).

Gunners refer to charge books for the various projos (since they may weigh differently or have different shapes) or a plastic charge sheet packed on a number-of-rounds per case basis. Doing their written gonculations by math, calculator, abacus, or fingers and toes they would send a deflection (direction and time-of-flight, compensating for atmospherics and drift) to aim the guns; an elevation (adjusting for angle); and a fuse setting and charge (how you want the charge to blow up, or desired effect, and how many propellant elements in the form of plastic or charge bags). #2 gun does the adjust fire mission with all the guns mirroring his commands. The FDC might converge the sheaf (to bring all the guns to one impact point), open the sheaf (getting wider coverage) or give a range-lateral spread (covering depth and width).

Your complicated missions come when you start throwing in fancy-dancy shit (#2 gun on target, high angle, #1 and 3 guns firing in depth, lateral spread, or smoke, and #4 firing flares for the spotter/observer to see and adjust hits).

A 155mm howitzer doing everything by GPS and electronics can (with a good gun and crew) drop a round into a garbage can at reasonable ranges. One of the coolest demos is to have a 155 crew fire one round high angle at a target down range and while the round is in flight, drop the muzzle, aim the gun direct fire, load, pull the lanyard, and have both rounds impact at the same instant.

You can generally get four guys to do the same thing with rifles (as in the Infantry Match. The squad leader will give elevation and wind. You fire on his command or on his tracers).

Typically there is no "Cold bore shot" unless you are firing on a target reference point you've shot at before and already have data on, and your guns or base plates are settled.

http://youtu.be/AS5G-NwPlWo
http://youtu.be/pgTk5-JX8qI
http://youtu.be/7o1MloQoRAQ
http://youtu.be/izbX9CpQnIU

 

[klf]

The harder you yank that rope the further that sucker goes!!!

Thanks for your service guys.

 

[Sharpsman]

And the most impressive thing a ground-pounder can witness is called a TOT aka Time On Target where you'll have possibly 1000 guns firing with timed fuses such that all rounds impact into the target area at the same time! We fired a TOT in Africa during WWII using 6000 guns! Wiped out an entire German Mech Division in one stroke!!

AWESOME!!

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Thanks a lot for your answers yall and thanks even more for your service.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

And the most impressive thing a ground-pounder can witness is called a TOT aka Time On Target where you'll have possibly 1000 guns firing with timed fuses such that all rounds impact into the target area at the same time! We fired a TOT in Africa during WWII using 6000 guns! Wiped out an entire German Mech Division in one stroke!!

AWESOME!!

Awesome is certainly understating the feat, Sir. I can't even think of a word to describe it.

Thank you very much for your service.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Wow, good stuff but surprised no one has even mentioned Angle T.

 

[Twitch2120]

Sebben is a user here and is currently in school to be a forward observer. from what he has told me the FDC computers do all the work. he gives a grid co-ordinate on the map, what round he needs (he can ask for nukes apparently), how many and he can designate a time. IE, if he needs a building gone at 9:02 AM tomorrow. rounds land at 0902. anyways, its 45 seconds from the time he calls to guns going off. if corrections are needed, he determines how much, feeds what he sees top the FDC, numbers crunch, more rounds. its pretty neat stuff.

 

[woostri]

Wow, this might be my favorite thread on Sniper's Hide in quite a while. Original and informing. Great respect for all those who've served and are currently serving.

 

[woostri]

Oh, and I've done a bit of 6 DOF analysis with artillery type shots as well as rifle shots. The physical phenomenon (external forces and moments) is identical between artillery and rifle bullets, just a higher angle shot for the former.

 

[Sebben]

I'm currently at Fort Sill I'm AIT learning my job as a 13F "fister". A good first round for an adjust fire mission is within 250m of the target. Once that round gets down range we can get it to the target pretty damn fast. After shooting long range precision rifles before coming here its very strange to use mils in the 100s rather than 1/10! The difference between artillery and a precision rifle is that we are "zeroing" an area weapon not a precision weapon. Now I'm talking about in guided. If we know the actual grid say an 8 digit grid we can place that round to within 10 m of the target! Its getting that grid with binos and a map that's hard.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Thanks for posting this. All very interesting. I was under the impression that artillery was super accurate. I remember during the Gulf War in the early 90's they talked about how crazy accurate the 16" guns were on the battleships. Was it reported wrong or are we talking about an entirely different type of gun?

Nukes from artillery? Sounds like some of that cool Starship Troopers shit. Bet they don't need to be quite so accurate.

 

[sharac]

PZH2000 Afghanistan Erika - YouTube

Germans having fun blasting sand...wouldn't mind serving on those and driving around instead of hauling large pieces of steel...

 

[stubbicatt]

In reference to the second video of contributor Sinister, what is it sets off the powder charge? Is there some sort of primer or something? a Piezo Electric generator?

Thanks.

 

[Wes_Mantooth]

Sebben is a user here and is currently in school to be a forward observer. from what he has told me the FDC computers do all the work. he gives a grid co-ordinate on the map, what round he needs (he can ask for nukes apparently), how many and he can designate a time. IE, if he needs a building gone at 9:02 AM tomorrow. rounds land at 0902. anyways, its 45 seconds from the time he calls to guns going off. if corrections are needed, he determines how much, feeds what he sees top the FDC, numbers crunch, more rounds. its pretty neat stuff.

Unless things have changed FIST gives a target description and requests the type of ordinance. It is up to a commisioned officer in the FDC to actually determine the type and number of rounds delivered.

We did have data for nuke rounds and this was over 2 decades ago. They even listed nuke data for the little 105mm pop guns.

Artillery FDC was just beginning to turn things over to computers when I was in. The old unix system that they started with was a pain in the ass and could only sometimes beat a good guy on a chart. I usually ran the chart, hated the computer.

45 seconds would probably be worst case scenario, "immediate supression" missions went out much faster.

There were usually targets picked out ahead of time. Crossroads, buildings, ridgelines, bridges things that an enemey was likely to use in the area. FDC would program them in in coordination with FIST. The FIST team would have a code word for each target.
Say a few armored vehicles were approaching a straight section of road. The road had already been hit and the data saved. The FIST guys call it in "Fire Mission RED BULL, four armored vehicles at my command." FDC looks up the data for "RED BULL", gives the data to the guns and waits. The observer says "fire", the FDC repeats the info to the guns and rounds go down range.

 

[Sebben]

Unless things have changed FIST gives a target description and requests the type of ordinance. It is up to a commisioned officer in the FDC to actually determine the type and number of rounds delivered.

We did have data for nuke rounds and this was over 2 decades ago. They even listed nuke data for the little 105mm pop guns.

Artillery FDC was just beginning to turn things over to computers when I was in. The old unix system that they started with was a pain in the ass and could only sometimes beat a good guy on a chart. I usually ran the chart, hated the computer.

45 seconds would probably be worst case scenario, "immediate supression" missions went out much faster.

There were usually targets picked out ahead of time. Crossroads, buildings, ridgelines, bridges things that an enemey was likely to use in the area. FDC would program them in in coordination with FIST. The FIST team would have a code word for each target.
Say a few armored vehicles were approaching a straight section of road. The road had already been hit and the data saved. The FIST guys call it in "Fire Mission RED BULL, four armored vehicles at my command." FDC looks up the data for "RED BULL", gives the data to the guns and waits. The observer says "fire", the FDC repeats the info to the guns and rounds go down range.

Everything here is true. But right now we are learning how to get a grid to an unknown point from a known point in. Either polar,grid or shift from a known point and send the transmission up in 45 sec. And we can "request" anything but in the end its up to FDC what we get. There was also some more advanced stuff brought up today called black magic. Its where the fist team talks to and adjusts the guns them selves. Skipping FDC all together! We haven't done immediate suppression yet.

 

[Name Enough]

I was told back in the 1970s that we had nuke artillery ready for the Fulda Gap. The Fulda Gap is the most likely route the Warsaw Pact countries would have taken into Western Germany for tank warfare and the nukes could close the gap to armor. They Warsay Pact had us out gunned at that time and we were bogged down elsewhere. Don't know if that was true as I was not in that branch of the Army. Does any one currently serving or rececntly separated know if there is nukes for artillery or is this info classified? I would guess that type of armament would be out moded by now anyway.

 

[Sebben]

I know that there are nuclear 155mm 175mm and 203mm. Not sure about 105.

 

[RedRyder]

Ok, so there is no nuclear mortar round. But there were 4.2 mortars.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

My brother was in the NG during the 60s and was recalled from camp during, I believe, the Berlin crisis. He was told they may be activated and sent to Germany. He was in a 4.2 mortar company and I can remember him telling me that they practiced firing atomic rounds. Although mortars are typically fired by dropping a round down the tube, I think he said that for the atomic rounds, there was some sort of contraption employing a long lanyard. It occured to him that if the round detonated prematurely, a lanyard really wouldn't have helped.

I'm guessing that he was referring to the W54/Mk-54 SADM, which isn't deployed via mortar.

 

[Killer Spade 13]

All I know from Viet Nam was the the artillery guys were good, but most of their shots were FUBAR because the guys on the ground calling it in didn't really know exactly where they were. Sort of like a blind man telling you where to throw a basketball.

 

[limamike56]

Learned a few things here. Good information. Thanks.

 

[Emergencynrse]

Been awhile but I worked with M110's (8" Baby!) and Nuclear Surety
FDC, Chants and Darts. Wes pretty much covered it.
Green Bag, Red Bag. Just the push in the propellant.
Did get ot direct-fire the 203mm once. Awesome. "Beehive" round. It was danger-close so I didn't take a picture. It was a BIG boom.



Army hasn't had Nukes since the 80's

 

[ArmaHeavy]

For Nuclear Artillery look up the Atomic Annie piece.

For Nuclear Mortar look up the Davy Crockett mortar.

 

[RedRyder]

I did find mention that the Marines had nuclear mortars but didn't feel like researching it further. I did see the Davy Crockett though. I don't know, maybe the Crockett was what he was referring to.

Just came across this website though 4.2

 

[Sharpsman]

I was told back in the 1970s that we had nuke artillery ready for the Fulda Gap. The Fulda Gap is the most likely route the Warsaw Pact countries would have taken into Western Germany for tank warfare and the nukes could close the gap to armor. They Warsay Pact had us out gunned at that time and we were bogged down elsewhere. Don't know if that was true as I was not in that branch of the Army. Does any one currently serving or rececntly separated know if there is nukes for artillery or is this info classified? I would guess that type of armament would be out moded by now anyway.

The Atomic Cannon - YouTube

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Great music in that video clip but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say some of that blast footage was from "other" detonations and not just that one arty round.

 

[ArmaHeavy]

I did find mention that the Marines had nuclear mortars but didn't feel like researching it further. I did see the Davy Crockett though. I don't know, maybe the Crockett was what he was referring to.

Just came across this website though 4.2

Yes, that's the system I'm referring to.

I never actually heard mention of the system being fielded though. Nothing concrete. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been possible with the threat of a Soviet tank offensive through the Fulda, I'm just saying that I never heard about it actually being there, or on any unit's MTO&E.

I think the reason it might have been stopped could have been that someone saw Dr. Strangelove one too many times, and worried about one going missing or stolen, one being fire off without orders, or something crazy like that. It was more tactical then strategic in it's concept, if I remember what I read about it. The system couldn't launch the projectile to anything more than a last ditch size distance. Consider that main bodies of offensives will have scout units well ahead of their advance, and the Crockett is really only effective if it hits the main body of the offensive where it could do the most damage.

It would be nice if someone who knew more on this, or actually worked on, or with it, could comment more on it.

 

[Papa Zero Three]

Yes, that's the system I'm referring to.

I never actually heard mention of the system being fielded though. Nothing concrete. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been possible with the threat of a Soviet tank offensive through the Fulda, I'm just saying that I never heard about it actually being there, or on any unit's MTO&E.

I know for a fact that the Mk-54 SADM was on a specific units MTO&E along wth some of the guys who regularly trained in it's application as they are still around in the community. You can google it and get a good deal of open source info but don't expect to find anything from them on it and what they did straight from them as it has not been declassified yet.

Here is some open source info on the DC: http://3ad.com/history/cold.war/nuclear.pages/weapons.pages/davy.crockett.htm

 

[ArmaHeavy]

I know for a fact that the Mk-54 SADM was on a specific units MTO&E along wth some of the guys who regularly trained in it's application as they are still around in the community. You can google it and get a good deal of open source info but don't expect to find anything from them on it and what they did straight from them as it has not been declassified yet.

Here is some open source info on the DC: 3AD "Davy Crockett" Nuclear Delivery System

Got it. Thank you for the link too.

 

[NativeCraft]

In the second video, the Marine Corps one, the guy yelling the commands says something just before he steps over to confirm the deflection - he says "load it", then "take it". When he says "load it" he appears to be looking at the powder charge - what is he instructing the guys to do when he says "take it"?

Also noticed that the guy packing the charge is one big-azz SOB! I guess it takes some "back" to ram those loads.