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ATF At It Again! Keep Your Eyes & Ears Open!

I’m just about to the point of filing form1’s for my pistols and disassemble them until they clear. Tired of this bullshit. At this point I’m not willing to get hemmed up for something as stupid as this.
 
I’m just about to the point of filing form1’s for my pistols and disassemble them until they clear. Tired of this bullshit. At this point I’m not willing to get hemmed up for something as stupid as this.
Form 1's are turning in 30 days or less so, not a bad option. The only issue I have is that it is problematic to cross state lines with them.
 
Form 1's are turning in 30 days or less so, not a bad option. The only issue I have is that it is problematic to cross state lines with them.

My last form 20 (good for a year of going back and forth to TX) came back in 5 days, filed by email, took me about 5 minutes to fill out and send. The state line thing isn't really a big deal, logistically. Not that I am at all an advocate for this level of government permission needed for a right, just like my dogs.
 
Form 1's are turning in 30 days or less so, not a bad option. The only issue I have is that it is problematic to cross state lines with them.

The only issue I have is being told what to do by some agency who enforces laws that are unconstitutional in the first place. This is insanity, they are chinking away at freedoms one piece at a time and know full well how far they can push without major backlash.

Where are we going to draw a line in the sand? If we don't stand together and tell them where to shove their letters, they will keep writing them until we are no different than the EU and everything is registered, controlled, and expensive.
 
Form 1's are turning in 30 days or less so, not a bad option. The only issue I have is that it is problematic to cross state lines with them.

I rarely leave my state, but if I had plans to, I’ll file a form 20. I have a form1 processing right now for a suppressor. I’m at 15 days now so I can imagine I’ve got a little more of a wait

My last form 20 (good for a year of going back and forth to TX) came back in 5 days, filed by email, took me about 5 minutes to fill out and send. The state line thing isn't really a big deal, logistically. Not that I am at all an advocate for this level of government permission needed for a right, just like my dogs.

I am definitely not an advocate of this either.
The only issue I have is being told what to do by some agency who enforces laws that are unconstitutional in the first place. This is insanity, they are chinking away at freedoms one piece at a time and know full well how far they can push without major backlash.

Where are we going to draw a line in the sand? If we don't stand together and tell them where to shove their letters, they will keep writing them until we are no different than the EU and everything is registered, controlled, and expensive.

This is what it really boils down to, however I’m not willing to take the chance that a local LEO doesn’t like the brace on my 10.5” pistol so I don’t feel like I have much choice but to send my 200$ to the king, and beg permission to put a real stock on it.
 
And that is the crux of the issue. "I don't like it but I'll do it anyway." We tried appeasing Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin; that didn't work either. We need to wake up and decide as a group of Americans when enough is enough.

Bump stocks were a good warning, I hope braces become the one to rally around. Otherwise we will be shooting 5 round mags through bolt guns before long. I love a good bolt gun as much as the next guy.

ETA - @darkfader please don't take this personally. I'm just challenging your thought process on this. I don't know what the solution is but I hope it is not a violent one. The ATF is one of many agencies doing this, so we really need to understand what the ATF is doing, but also the EPA and others. It is hard for me to think our current government (as good as it is) is a government of the people by the people for the people.
 
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I thought about just filing the stupid form for mine as well, what really pisses me off is the whole reason I paid almost $200 for the brace was to avoid the hassle. If I was gonna do the form I would much rather have a basic sub $50 stock that would actually be comfortable and have a better L.O.P for me. Now I'm gonna end up with $400 invested in every crappy brace I own fuck that nonsense.
 
If we a fortunate enough to win one of the elections in Georgia in January to keep control of the Senate, everyone here that gives a shit about their gun rights should sign a petition and write to their Senator to abolish the ATF.
 
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And that is the crux of the issue. "I don't like it but I'll do it anyway." We tried appeasing Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin; that didn't work either. We need to wake up and decide as a group of Americans when enough is enough.

Bump stocks were a good warning, I hope braces become the one to rally around. Otherwise we will be shooting 5 round mags through bolt guns before long. I love a good bolt gun as much as the next guy.

ETA - @darkfader please don't take this personally. I'm just challenging your thought process on this. I don't know what the solution is but I hope it is not a violent one. The ATF is one of many agencies doing this, so we really need to understand what the ATF is doing, but also the EPA and others. It is hard for me to think our current government (as good as it is) is a government of the people by the people for the people.

Didn’t take it personally at all. Just like you I’m almost sure, I can’t risk my entire livelihood and 2nd amendment rights over a stupid piece of plastic. I hate the fact that we all have to pay for a stamp and file forms for “a right to legally possess” any NFA item. Repeal the NFA and defund the ATF. However, as one guy in WV, I can’t do much but write the one republican senator who represents my state. The other is communist and votes with his party despite pics of him firing a short barreled AR. In the meantime, I’ll have to remain a lawful citizen to protect my livelihood.
Besides, the letters from the ATF re. pistol braces is so damn vague, it doesn’t even actually say it’s illegal at this time. I figure the sooner I get form1’s submitted, the sooner I’ll get them back, and I can put the stocks I want on them and shoulder them any time I want. Just frustrated and venting.
 
You guys know that there are some people that own a plethora of AR pistols? If you have just 1 or 2, then form1s aren't too bad of an issue. But I know of a man (family) that owns 11 of them. Different calibers and pistols for each of their family. $2,200 is a lot to expect him to pay for something that was deemed legal by the ATF. I personally saw the writing on the wall and did form 1s on my 3 months ago.
 
Okay guys take a breath and slow your rolls for just a minute. SB is pushing back against the ATF in this case and it looks like a fight might be on the horizon. If you have a 2A leaning senator reach out to them. This is a fluid situation with nothing settled at this point. Details are being posted on YouTube.
 
I have a RINO on his way out the door and the other is a pos. Marsha Blackburn is a spineless cunt swamp dweller enriching herself and family on the taxpayer. She was financed in the primary by the party and had name recognition. Once the primary was over the job was hers.
 
You guys know that there are some people that own a plethora of AR pistols? If you have just 1 or 2, then form1s aren't too bad of an issue. But I know of a man (family) that owns 11 of them. Different calibers and pistols for each of their family. $2,200 is a lot to expect him to pay for something that was deemed legal by the ATF. I personally saw the writing on the wall and did form 1s on my 3 months ago.

Exactly!! The point that needs to be fought is that it was legal abd now they want to make it illegal! That’s bullshit. A law needs to be a law. If you are going to keep swaying then nobody is going to take the law seriously and just start doing whatever they want. It’s human nature.

Okay guys take a breath and slow your rolls for just a minute. SB is pushing back against the ATF in this case and it looks like a fight might be on the horizon. If you have a 2A leaning senator reach out to them. This is a fluid situation with nothing settled at this point. Details are being posted on YouTube.

Good. Maybe we post up some letters written to your reps in regards to this so others might have a template to follow.
 
Exactly!! The point that needs to be fought is that it was legal abd now they want to make it illegal! That’s bullshit. A law needs to be a law.
Yeah well, it's not a law. It's a dictate by a agency that has no liability to the populace.
George Washington warned about that shit in his farewell address.
Our elected representatives have abdicated their responsibility to these agencies. Then they smile in your face and say that they are not going to infringe on your rights while stabbing us in the back.
The reset they are talking about may not go the way they think
 
Didn’t take it personally at all. Just like you I’m almost sure, I can’t risk my entire livelihood and 2nd amendment rights over a stupid piece of plastic. I hate the fact that we all have to pay for a stamp and file forms for “a right to legally possess” any NFA item. Repeal the NFA and defund the ATF. However, as one guy in WV, I can’t do much but write the one republican senator who represents my state. The other is communist and votes with his party despite pics of him firing a short barreled AR. In the meantime, I’ll have to remain a lawful citizen to protect my livelihood.
Besides, the letters from the ATF re. pistol braces is so damn vague, it doesn’t even actually say it’s illegal at this time. I figure the sooner I get form1’s submitted, the sooner I’ll get them back, and I can put the stocks I want on them and shoulder them any time I want. Just frustrated and venting.

I agree 100% on the livelihood comment... That's the unfortunate part of the left / right divide we have today. So many of them can go protest, get thrown in jail, and carry on with life much easier than someone can that owns a business or is employed with someone who may or may not see things the same way. The unfortunate consequence to this is that things have to get pretty bad for guys like us to put it all on the line to actually do anything about it. That's why an organized effort is so important. The joke of "they can't put us all in jail if no one pays taxes" is funny but true. I'm not necessarily advocating for that, but 1,000+ guys in WV all saying the same thing is sure more effective than each man for himself. I hope SB kicks the ATF's teeth in.
 
SIGN THIS GUYS!
 
SIGN THIS GUYS!

And then Biden will re-appoint her the day he takes office, or someone worse. Trump is toast. Anything of consequence that he does before Biden is inaugurated will be reversed or challenged legally. We need the Senate plain and simple.
 
And then Biden will re-appoint her the day he takes office, or someone worse. Trump is toast. Anything of consequence that he does before Biden is inaugurated will be reversed or challenged legally. We need the Senate plain and simple.
It is about the message we are sending...
 
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It is about the message we are sending...

But they won't see it that way. All they will see is a sore loser abusing his power and making the transition to Biden as difficult as he can.

It's time to stop using Trump to hide behind and start sending our own messages. They have no problem showing their hand and describing the plan to disarm us, I think it's time to show ours and make it known that there will be zero compliance across the board.
 
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And that is the crux of the issue. "I don't like it but I'll do it anyway." We tried appeasing Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin; that didn't work either. We need to wake up and decide as a group of Americans when enough is enough.

Bump stocks were a good warning, I hope braces become the one to rally around. Otherwise we will be shooting 5 round mags through bolt guns before long. I love a good bolt gun as much as the next guy.

ETA - @darkfader please don't take this personally. I'm just challenging your thought process on this. I don't know what the solution is but I hope it is not a violent one. The ATF is one of many agencies doing this, so we really need to understand what the ATF is doing, but also the EPA and others. It is hard for me to think our current government (as good as it is) is a government of the people by the people for the people.


 
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We are all busy and we want to keep on our own businesses, but we need to get back the local administration. School board, city council, etc, become involved, candidate and take them back.
That's what democrats have done and it worked well for them, because of our inaction and complacency.
Then we have a good chance at state level and beyond.
One more thing: we need to replace ASAP the traitors that are currently in the republican party and sold us out.
 
We are all busy and we want to keep on our own businesses, but we need to get back the local administration. School board, city council, etc, become involved, candidate and take them back.
That's what democrats have done and it worked well for them, because of our inaction and complacency.
Then we have a good chance at state level and beyond.
One more thing: we need to replace ASAP the traitors that are currently in the republican party and sold us out.
That would be all of them.
May they all hang together.
 
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I don’t know what y’all thought was gonna happen. The industry could’ve flown under the radar but all these companies started making stocks with Velcro on them and calling them pistol braces. I’m not, nor will I ever be on the side of ATF but come the fuck on...

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Maybe we should take a page out of the liberal book and organize a March on and occupy atf headquarters. Seems as long it’s peaceful rioting and looting the pollutions (yes I mean pollutions not politicians) will support everyone.
 
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Lookn through the smoke, the full intint of the “pistol braced AR” and other “assault style” weapons was to circumnavigate around NFA guidelines. Period.Some Braced AR’s are shorter than my stamped SBR. Mfg’s, and lawyers pushed the too hard and with the current panick buying they got way to much attention. Some of you might not agree but I dont think anyone will say I’m wrong
The constitution says your wrong
 
Just got this from FCP
https://www.firearmspolicy.org/r?u=...m_medium=email&utm_campaign=1216_atf_news&n=1


1) The draft document does not appear to reflect a new “ban” on pistol braces or firearms with such devices. The ATF, evidently, is not indicating that the mere presence of a brace on a pistol automatically converts the firearm into one under the purview of the National Firearms Act (“NFA”). (Indeed, the ATF has no authority to declare accessories like pistol braces to be NFA components, though the agency’s previous conduct provides little reassurance.)

2) The draft document instead purports to be intended to inform the public on how brace-equipped firearms will be examined in the future. Based on the criteria set forth in the draft document, it appears that the ATF would take something of a ‘totality of the circumstances’ approach in determining whether a specific brace-equipped pistol is a ‘short-barreled’ firearm regulated under the NFA. These criteria include: the firearm’s type, caliber, weight, and length, the design of the brace itself, whether the firearm can be properly aimed when using the attachment as a brace, and whether an optic that cannot properly be used one-handed is present (i.e., something that suggests intent). The agency also indicates that it will observe the marketing of firearms and accessories, as well as other more subjective factors.
3) Importantly, the draft document recognizes that most people with braced firearms have acted in good faith. It suggests that the agency seeks to establish a procedure by which people who already have firearms that may fall under the purview of the NFA, and who wish to take advantage of registering them as NFA firearms to obtain the legal protections of such, may potentially do so without payment of the associated tax.

FPC believes that the NFA is an unconstitutional infringement of the People’s rights, that the ATF should be abolished, and that any policy or practice enforcing the Act is unconstitutional and immoral.

With that said, the policies in the draft document do not appear to be a significant departure from previous publicly undisclosed agency policies, some of which were discovered through criminal prosecutions, FOIA requests, and other sources. Your FPC team will be monitoring the situation closely. If anything changes we will let you know as soon as possible.
 
So if said person registers pistols without the $200 tax as stated. Can said person now put stocks on all said lowers? Asking for a friend.
 
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NFA is unconstitutional. The Supreme Court even found that you don’t have to pay fees for rights.
 
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So when people are found with sbr’s without a tax stamp what is the charge? Tax evasion? Prohibited weapon?
 
Guys, they are adapting the language to be ambiguous and make people think they aren't taking too much freedom at once. Enough is enough. Look at where we already are. Need to do all we can to resist this in the courts, etc.
 
So when people are found with sbr’s without a tax stamp what is the charge? Tax evasion? Prohibited weapon?
There was a DV case where they slapped on firearms charges (unregistered SBR) because the defendant had put some kind of plug in his SiG Brace.

They charged that this was possession of an unregistered SBR by modifying the device into a stock.

Those charges were tossed out.

I’m frankly tired of all of the BS by now. If the States, Senate, House, and SCOTUS don’t give a rip about election integrity, it’s time for the Treasury to refund everyone’s tax stamps and prepare to have their cursed collection agents doxed and treated the same way we treated the British tax collectors in the late 1700s.

You can’t swear an oath to the Constitution and be employed by the ATF. The 2 are not compatible, no matter how you try to justify and twist your logic with Treasury powers, plain and simple. An organization specifically tasked with assaulting the Bill of Rights has zero legal grounds for existence in the US, and just because a bunch of drunken imbeciles in Congress in 1934 crafted legislation specifically violating the very thing they are denied from doing under 2A, does not mean I have to recognize any agency that uses said legislation as justification for violating the Constitution and their oaths.

They’ve pushed too far, and I don’t care anymore what they say on any matter related to this ever again.
 
Everyone crying over this that owns a brace I only have one question: Of all the times you handled your braced gun, how many or what percentage did you use the brace as the inventor intended? Compared to haw many times you used the brace like it was a stock?
 
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Everyone crying over this that owns a brace I only have one question: Of all the times you handled your braced gun, how many or what percentage did you use the brace as the inventor intended? Compared to haw many times you used the brace like it was a stock?
I’m to poor to have a brace but am curious were your going with that question. How you use something that’s yours has no bearing over weather or not you should have it. It’s my prerogative weather I want a barrel to be 1 inch or 100 feet long and if I wanna use my dick to pull the trigger then that’s my decision not gov.
 
Then make a law, a real law that outlines what the kings men will allow you to do and what they will not. THAT would at least get some people n board but the atf just arbitrarily mandating things we have to do, dictating cryptic secret laws that are neither published nor real laws enacted by the legislative branch whenever they randomly feel like it, we'll that is something else...

...shouldering a brace, if illegal, should be made illegal in the typical way law is made, you know, in horrible detail like any other real law, not this whimsical nonsense the atf loves.

A crime can't be a crime on the basis of "we know it when we see it." THAT is some fucked Orwellian shit right there. Legislating our rights away is one thing, but this is a step beyond since they aren't even legislating at this point. Who voted to approve this?
 
I’m beginning to think the gov is gonna keep pushing until we the people take up arms and defend our rights
 
Everyone crying over this that owns a brace I only have one question: Of all the times you handled your braced gun, how many or what percentage did you use the brace as the inventor intended? Compared to haw many times you used the brace like it was a stock?
Nobody is crying.

For starters, it’s literally none of anyone’s business how another human being decides to manage their personal protective posture, or how parents protect their children.

The Founders and Supreme Court have laid that down pretty thick with multiple cases over the years, including the SCOTUS declaring that,

The Supreme Court ruled that it had the power to overturn and/or control laws of Congress with the ruling written by the great Chief Justice John Marshall, which simply said: "All laws repugnant to the Constitution are null and void."
Marbury v. Madison, 1803 5 US 137

"The people's right to bear arms, like the rights of assembly and petition, existed long before the Constitution, and is not "in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." This ruling also upheld that all able bodied males are members of the militia (one of three such clear rulings).
U.S. v. Cruikshank, 1876 92 US 542, 553

In 1897 the Supreme Court ruled that the right to arms is an "ancient" and "fundamental" right, a right which was "inherited from our English ancestors" and has existed "from time Immemorial."
Robertson v. Baldwin, 1897 165 US 275

The Supreme Court stated that, the great and essential rights of the people are secured against legislative as well as against executive ambition. They are secured, not by laws paramount to prerogative, but by constitutions paramount to laws." (Chief Justice Hughes quoting James Madison).
Near v. Minnesota, 1931 283 US 697, 714

In a first amendment case involving freedom of the press and religion, the Supreme Court ruled "The power to impose a license fee on a constitutional right amounts to prior restraint and the power to restrict or deny the right ... a tax laid specifically on the exercise of these freedoms would be unconstitutional."
Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 1943 319 US 105

The Supreme Court ruled that "The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution. Its power and authority have no other source. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution."
Reid v. Covert, 1957 354 US 1

The Supreme Court has ruled that a state official who, "under color of state law," deprives a citizen of a right guaranteed by the federal Constitution may be held personally liable for damages.
Hafer v. Melo, 1991 No. 90-681



Now, I realize that everyone was trained from childhood to ask permission from the state for everything, whether it was to raise your hand in class, to go to the bathroom, to get up, to sit down, to leave the cursed room, or to call your parents, but none of this conduct is Constitutional, right, or natural. It is 100% antithetical to the foundational principles of our Nation, and those who advocate for something different are at odds with the framers and dozens of SCOTUS cases. I only listed a few of them for brevity.

To sum it up, under US law, your rights as a human being do not come from government, they exist by nature of your humanity. No government body has the right to tell you what you can and can’t have relative to keeping and bearing arms, nor do they possess authority to declare otherwise.

Any actions contrary to this by people under the color of law are severe criminal acts punishable with personal liability for any damages, since they don’t have authority to violate the people’s natural right to keep and bear arms.

That is US law on this matter.
 
I’m beginning to think the gov is gonna keep pushing until we the people take up arms and defend our rights
We are the government. ATF is an unconstitutional little monstrosity that grew out of Treasury as soon as Prohibition was repealed.

They have literally zero legal standing when held next to the Constitution.

Some of the case law even references incidents where statist jack boot retards tried to tax some particular church on sales of their religious tokens in Murdoch vs Pennsylvania, 1943.

A statist, insecure, demonic person who seeks to exert unrighteous control over his neighbors has no standing with the Constitution. He or she will always work hard to exert it, and as soon as enough people just bow-out because of fear, you have tyranny.

Little piss-ant dictators would have zero control if the people initially would have just kicked their skulls in and left their carcass out in public square for all to see. This is the main reason the founders penned the Second Amendment. It doesn’t grant our natural rights. It lays the legal restriction on Congress from doing things like 1934. They did it anyway, then allowed Treasury to form ATF.
 
We are the government. ATF is an unconstitutional little monstrosity that grew out of Treasury as soon as Prohibition was repealed.

They have literally zero legal standing when held next to the Constitution.

Some of the case law even references incidents where statist jack boot retards tried to tax some particular church on sales of their religious tokens in Murdoch vs Pennsylvania, 1943.

A statist, insecure, demonic person who seeks to exert unrighteous control over his neighbors has no standing with the Constitution. He or she will always work hard to exert it, and as soon as enough people just bow-out because of fear, you have tyranny.

Little piss-ant dictators would have zero control if the people initially would have just kicked their skulls in and left their carcass out in public square for all to see. This is the main reason the founders penned the Second Amendment. It doesn’t grant our natural rights. It lays the legal restriction on Congress from doing things like 1934. They did it anyway, then allowed Treasury to form ATF.
Also about the time of fed bank, a private entity, and the end of gold and silver certificates
 
I’m to poor to have a brace but am curious were your going with that question. How you use something that’s yours has no bearing over weather or not you should have it. It’s my prerogative weather I want a barrel to be 1 inch or 100 feet long and if I wanna use my dick to pull the trigger then that’s my decision not gov.

Because too many gun owners looked at the brace, saw a stock, and use it accordingly. The probable reason the ATF is looking again is when they look at social media accounts of gun owners, they see people using them as stocks. Not as braces like designed.

But with your and other cosplaytriot's argument: When I get caught doing 120mph down the freeway, I can argue it is legal since the car can go that fast, it is my car and I can do with it what I want, I have the right to interstate travel, and speed limits are not set by congress, so officer: PISS OFF!!

Actually, why don't you try that? And have a passenger filming/live streaming the whole interaction. Please. Do that. Pretty Please. With a cherry on top. It will make 2020 worth it.
 
@IrishWind I think there are a lot of people here that would like to be in a country where that's how things work because that is true freedom. Anyone who works in other industries will likely vouch that the _____ gov entity only restricts business and production.

Where is the line between personal choice and oppressing your neighbor? That is why our government was designed to govern a moral (some would say religious) people. Where does this morality come from? Our founding fathers would argue that it comes from God. We have been legislating morality for decades now and we are getting to the tipping point. The divide is great. Where does that leave us? As a Christian, I believe our life on this earth has eternal consequences. This divide is simply huge symptom of an even larger problem
 
Because too many gun owners looked at the brace, saw a stock, and use it accordingly. The probable reason the ATF is looking again is when they look at social media accounts of gun owners, they see people using them as stocks. Not as braces like designed.

But with your and other cosplaytriot's argument: When I get caught doing 120mph down the freeway, I can argue it is legal since the car can go that fast, it is my car and I can do with it what I want, I have the right to interstate travel, and speed limits are not set by congress, so officer: PISS OFF!!

Actually, why don't you try that? And have a passenger filming/live streaming the whole interaction. Please. Do that. Pretty Please. With a cherry on top. It will make 2020 worth it.
False equivalency argument.

Traveling down the freeway at 120mph is not a right and is generally associated with dangerous/reckless behavior if other automobiles are present on said highway.

What type of furniture someone mounts on their firearm has nothing to do with reckless endangerment of other travelers or bystanders. ATF jack boots aren’t bringing up any concerns over safety, but arbitrary artifacts from the original draft legislation from 1934 that were designed to ban pistols (that never made it into the final NFA), and unintentionally created the unconstitutional SBS and SBR provisions of 1934 NFA.

Now if you take any firearm and start discharging in city limits, brandishing at neighbors, or violating published range safety rules, that would be an equivalent argument to your 120mph freeway scenario, and would still have nothing to do with whether or not the firearm was a pistol or rifle.

Before you make an argument, run it through the pillars of intellectual thinking and see if it’s a logical fallacy. You and the world will be a better place for it.