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attack this noob, 5 questions

Break Bad

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 29, 2012
370
0
NW Florida
Been a plinker for a couple years now, watched a local competition and got hooked. Bought a 700 5R and the Lee Aniversary kit. I wanted to start reloading from the start and have my shooting skills advance along side of my loading skills.

With that said I've read the Hand Loading 1-4 stickies and can honestly say I can skip steps such as pocket uniforming and in-depth concentricity and bullet measurements until my skill justifies such precision (with exception of case length and bullet depth in relation to rifling of course)

Using virgin win brass 308, SMK 175, and 4064 I did some trial loads just to see how everything works and had some questions/observations:

1. The powder dispenser ("perfect powder measure") sucks. The VMD for 4064 is .0755 and I was gonna do 36 gr (according to some book at the store), so .0755x35 = 2.718, so I dialed the volume to 2.6, 'dispensed' it (which just sprayed the powder everywhere, had to use the funnel to catch), and when I put it on the scale it just dropped like a brick. I did zero the scale, so I would tend to trust it over the dispenser. After removing a substantial amount and trickling some powder I got to the correct amount and loaded the case and seated the bullet. The sound it makes when I shake the round make me think its not nearly enough power. I'm definitely not shooting it ! Is my math bad? and is it important to try have the least amount of air in the case?

2. They only had a hornady book, and SMK 175 was almost identical too one of the hornady's, which recommended a 2.800 length. Sound about right for starts? Is there a website or perhaps iphone app that has information like this ?
I only plan on loading 308 for the distant future so dont want to splurge on a 35$ book so which can tell me how to load 38 acp or 9x19 or some spanish mauzer round.

3. Bought the RCBS Comp 30cal seater and I'm totally confused on how to calibrate it (maybe it was suppose to come with instructions, mine didn't). After You Tube'ing and basically trial and error I got a 2.795 length bullet, and marked the setting at the top and locked the adjustment ring. The only procedure I found was to screw in the die until it touches, then back it off 1/8 turn. Touches what? The extended bullet seat goes up inside.

4. Is crimping a personal preference in the precision world or is there a majority? I'm guessing no crimping unless you some sort of pressure / seating guru. I vote no crimping for me because I'm probably more likely to bust my chamber doing so.

5. Probably just ignore this question: Are there milestones that correlate to loading practices that improve precision? EG: Start worrying about bullet jump when you are shooting x inch groups at eleventy thousand yards.

Any feedback appreciated!
I prefer flames in the form of Haiku (5-7-5 syllables, remember highscool?):
"You are hopeless smith
Should stick with twenty two gun
Save your money guy"
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

1 - the powder dispenser is crazy inaccurate. ok for pistols, not for precise rifle. if its 3% off then 3% at 5grains is a lot less than 3% at 44grains. as for the mess use the plastic inserts that should of come with it to "funnel" it down. so if you want 44grains use dispenser to get you to 43ish, put in scale and trickle to 44. Or go buy a chargemaster.

4 - From what I have read, crimping is only necessary for auto loaders. more than likely wont need a crimp in a bolt cuz its not getting slammed hard into the chamber like a ar10 would.

good luck
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

I use the lee powder measure to drop powder and then weigh on a digital scale, but have use it to drop and not weigh. Seems like the groups have been more consistent since I starting weighing each charge and trickling. The thing about powder measures in general is your stroke needs to be the same each time and I have noticed the lee with vary with the amount of powder in the hopper. There is a number of post on here about the lee factory crimp die and the consensus is It is not useful. I just recently sold mine. I could be wrong its been a while since I have used 4064 but 36 grains sounds really light.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

I don't know what you guys are doing wrong with your Lee PP throwers, but mine is scary accurate. I haven't even bothered to spot check my last few runs, but back when I did run a spot check with the pan balance every 5th round or so, I was getting 44.5+-0.2 gn (Varget) which is well within my OCW node.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

1. 36gr is way low for a 175 and 4064

2. Validate your measure, at least for a while, by weighing each charge. Once satisfied the measure is working, you can throw charges.

3. If you're familiar with loading practice, and will only do 308, the freebie manuals by the powder makers are sufficient.

4. Crimping is not necessary or helpful on boltguns. I dont crimp my autoloader ammo wither, and have no issues.

5. No. You'll either: be able to "feel" you need better ammo, or you'll just "want" to make better ammo. Once you get solid, consistent 1moa groups, but can't get better, look at upping your loading game.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

+1 turbo

i dont know if your math is good but that lee thing sucks. I never use it , i use the lee spoons instead.

2.800 will work but the website your looking for is right here , trying using the google search and you'll find plenty info on loading 308

the "touching" is the stem of the seater making contact with the bullet ogive , take your die apart and you can see for yourself. Remmber bullets vary in ogive and overall length so your going to have to back your seater off everytime and then fine tune it if your want your loads to have identical lengths.

i dont crimp , allot of people don't , there is a reason high dollar seaters do not feature a built in crimp. It's not needed to produce accurate ammo.

as for milestones , it would depend on how someone interprets your question. AFter getting an intial charge weight down you'd do a seating depth test. After that you might tweak your charge weights alittle.... i dont know what a milestone is
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

Haiku - Samurai with allergy.

I'm not sure how much experience you have reloading. Some of the basics are better picked up from print as you can refer back to them. There are a few good inenexpensive books out there.

As for your questions: 1) Did you attach the drop tube? Are you holding the pan close to the end of the tube? I'd go with this method. Zero the scale, dispense powder into pan and weigh. Adjust dispenser to get desired weight. The Lee isn't a high tech dispenser but should be accurate enough to get started then trickle up if you want exact.
2) Look at the loads in the Hornady book for their 175. 36 grains "according to some book at the store" sounds way to low.
3) I can explaine a Redding die, I don't know if RCBS is the same but if you go to www.rcbs.com they have instructions on theri site for their products.
4) Crimping is not required for most rounds in most guns. Neck tension corrects this problem.
5) In regard to bullet jump, once you find the most accurate load then adjust seating depth to see if it changes accuracy.

Now for the closest to a flame I'll give you. You bought an expensive rifle, you have the desire to load accurate rounds, take the time to learn about the steps you are taking. Youtube and apps are helpful but they will not teach you everything you need to learn. I'd put them just above the wax in your ears.

Your disdain for buying a reloading manual for $35 after investing in virgin brass and top of the line bullets is foolish. The manual that you didn't want to "SPLURGE" has a step by step process that will tell you how to load a round. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Now pull up your pants and take the time to learn how to load before you hurt yourself, or more importantly somebody else</span>.</span>
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
.... You bought an expensive rifle, you have the desire to load accurate rounds, take the time to learn about the steps you are taking.....

Your disdain for buying a reloading manual for $35 after investing in virgin brass and top of the line bullets is foolish. The manual that you didn't want to "SPLURGE" has a step by step process that will tell you how to load a round. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">Now pull up your pants and take the time to learn how to load before you hurt yourself, or more importantly somebody else</span>.</span></div></div>

Thanks for the flame. These few rounds I'm loading ARE the learning steps. I have no plans to fire them. Do you think someone to be proficient after reading a book and having no hands-on? I don't. I read all the included documentation, tried some loads, still had some questions.

Concerning the "manual" It was simply a cartridge load data reference not a "how to load manual" which I would have happily bought. I don't plan on firing any round I've loaded until I'm confident, which I am not. And thanks for the answers to my questions!
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lee's semi-"Perfect Powder Measure" works a lot better if we read and follow the instructions.</div></div>

Read every word.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: geek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lee's semi-"Perfect Powder Measure" works a lot better if we read and follow the instructions.</div></div>

Read every word. </div></div>

Even the part about running a full jug of powder through it first to coat the works with graphite from the powder? I ran a jug of varget through it twice (back into another jug) before I threw my first charge.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: geek</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the flame. These few rounds I'm loading ARE the learning steps. I have no plans to fire them. Do you think someone to be proficient after reading a book and having no hands-on? I don't. I read all the included documentation, tried some loads, still had some questions.

Concerning the "manual" It was simply a cartridge load data reference not a "how to load manual" which I would have happily bought. I don't plan on firing any round I've loaded until I'm confident, which I am not. And thanks for the answers to my questions! </div></div>

Then look for a good manual. It will walk you through the process. Hands on is good learning. Hands on with a manual and you can fire the first round you make.

My first manual (Speer) came with the kit I bought; my second was a Hornady set, good reference material, third is a Sierra manual. There are a lot of good posts stickied up top here, too.

Did you get an inertial puller? You can reuse your components.

Ask away, questions are good.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

If you can force yourself to get a manual, get Lyman #49 and read the informational section 2 or 3 times before you get too far into this reloading business. You'll learn much more than you'd ever dream you would, and you'll have far lower odds of screwing up.

You def did a good job of drawing fire with your thread title as well. "Attack this noob" -- I had to check that out.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mtrmn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I

You def did a good job of drawing fire with your thread title as well. "Attack this noob" -- I had to check that out. </div></div>

right under the sticky that said do not attack ! what is this the army and cannot make up it's mind?
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunsnjeeps</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Then look for a good manual. It will walk you through the process. Hands on is good learning. Hands on with a manual and you can fire the first round you make.

My first manual (Speer) came with the kit I bought; my second was a Hornady set, good reference material, third is a Sierra manual. There are a lot of good posts stickied up top here, too.

Did you get an inertial puller? You can reuse your components.

Ask away, questions are good.</div></div>

Hoping to get a manual on my smartphone so its not so obvious I'm researching this stuff at work!
wink.gif
Yes, I bought the inertial puller and have used it twice now.

Had much more luck with the Lee PP tonight, perhaps because i'm not amped up on coffee coming off a long day at work. It is really accurate.

@mtrmn - I'll check it out the Lyman material thanks. And yes, I wanted to draw fire since i'm so new to this. And it is explosive/flammable material....better to be flamed here then on the range. As Gunsnjeeps said, I did buy and expensive rifle, would like to shoot it more than once.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

The powder dispenser ("perfect powder measure") sucks.

I started with that, then went to a redding, then a chargemaster type, then a Harrel, the others all sit and the harrel gets used, but you do not know until you try, also started with the Lee press then bought a coax, it is still in the box, I really like/got used to the Lee
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

Nothing beats weighing each charge. Powder measures are nice, but they aren't accurate enough for me. As others have pointed out. If I want 42.5 grains of something, I set my powder throw for 41 or so grains and then trickle up to the desired weight.

Crimp is useful in semi auto and full auto because the violent action slamming a bullet into the chamber can dislodge the bullet and the bullet can jump up into the lands. Crimping fixes that and is normally used on surplus ammo. I don't know anyone that crimps anything.

Read read read. There is alot of info out there that needs to be learned. Unless you have a very knowledgable buddy teaching you how to load step by step, they only way you are going to learn the basics is to read and trial and error. Get yourself a bullet puller and reuse your mistakes.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

+1 Muttt

I don't use a thrower anymore as mine is ridiculously inconsistent. I began loading with my 50BMG. Is that best? No, but I didn't hurt anyone and have learned a ton in the process. I also spent a few months of letting the setup sit on the table before loading up my first round as I read and read and read everything I could find. After all that, I VERY cautiously loaded up my first 5 rounds and went to the range with no problems. Now by "very cautiously" I'm talking about taking every possible measurement, sorting brass, bullets, weighing charges 2-4 times a piece on an electric scale as well as beam, etc. It was obsessive, but it's helped me get to where I'm at now.

Now get a second job because all the stuff you're going to just neeeeeed to have is about to double, haha. Like my new RCBS 1500 Chargemaster Combo. That thing is the tits.

Good luck and stay safe!
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

That first round does have a pucker factor.

As far as your questions go, most are answered sufficiently, but I have a few thoughts:
1: The powder dispenser is a relatively crude mechanical device and will work as consistently as you operate it. It will work better with ball powder than it will with extruded powder (varget is extruded), but mine will hold around .2 grain accuracy with H4895 which is similar to varget. Only pull the handle up when you are ready to throw a charge then be as consistent tin the rate at which you operate the handle as possible.

2: Meh, books are overrated. I don't use either of mine very often (very rarely). Your public library might have some reloading books for free. All the information you need (and then some) is at the top of this page.

3: Put your shellholder in your press, lower the handle raising the ram to the top, then screw the die in until the outer part of the die touches the shellholder, then back it off 1/8 of a turn.

4: I never crimp anything that gets shot in a bolt action, but I crimp many of my semi auto loads. I don't want them to get set back when they are chambered. I really like the Lee factory crimp die for crimping.

5: As for tweaking seating depth, you will likely not need to mess with it, but at any rate it is done after you have figured out your load. Move it in .010" and out .010" and see if your groups improve. If so, move the same direction another .010"


Welcome to the hide and fill out your profile with some location information. Someone may volunteer to help you figure it out in person.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

Great advice, thanks again all.

Would it be a good idea to bring a handful of rounds I have loaded to the best of my ability to an experienced loader and ask him if he would would fire them? Assuming he would disassemble the rounds and measure, etc....

The store I bought most of my supplies from has a reloading seminar once I week which I went to last night and got to see the process from start to finish. However I forgot to ask him the question above. I'm sure he'd be willing to.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

Look for a book called The ABC's of reloading. I think every first time reloader should have to read this book before loading even one round. It has more information on the process than all the other data books combined.

Bill
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

"Read every word (of the instuctions)."

Including the part saying to ajust the measure's rotor retaining screws so there's a tad of resistance to turning (so it's not so loose it leaks ball powders)? Assembled correctly and used consistantly most of us have found Lee's semi-Perfect Powder Measure to provide some of the most consistant dropped charges we've ever obtained, especially so for large kernel tubular powders.

Paying for a very costly 'competition' seater and skipping a basic reloading manual to save money was a false economy; get the right book and read IT!
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

36 grains of 4064 is on the low end, but it is safe to fire (as long as everything else is in spec)....at least according to the Sierra manual it is. I actually loaded two up for a ladder test a couple weeks ago. Shooting the 5R as well. The node on mine was hitting between 39 and 41 grains. Might be something to check out. I think it states the max load as 42.5ish for 4064.

If you know anyone locally that has reloaded for sometime, thats some of the best instruction I've ever gotten. Knew some guys at church that had been doing it for decades. Smart guys, and good instruction.
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. The powder dispenser ("perfect powder measure") sucks. The VMD for 4064 is .0755 and I was gonna do 36 gr (according to some book at the store), so .0755x35 = 2.718, so I dialed the volume to 2.6, 'dispensed' it (which just sprayed the powder everywhere, had to use the funnel to catch), and when I put it on the scale it just dropped like a brick. I did zero the scale, so I would tend to trust it over the dispenser. After removing a substantial amount and trickling some powder I got to the correct amount and loaded the case and seated the bullet. The sound it makes when I shake the round make me think its not nearly enough power. I'm definitely not shooting it ! Is my math bad? and is it important to try have the least amount of air in the case?</div></div>

Use the scale to set up the measure. That calc you mention is totally alien to me, and I've been handloading for the better part of two decades. Generally, I deal with dispenser inaccuracies by ensuring all charges are at least the desired amount, dump each dispensed charge into the scale pan, then pinch some out and finger-trickle the load back up to ideal. Excess gets collected in a small cup, then replaced in the measure when I'm done. I recharge the case using a drop tube.

IMR-4064 and the 175SMK should be pretty happy at around 42.0gr in the .308.

Air in the case is OK, my goal it to keep it to a minimum, but that's not graven in stone. The technical term is Load Density Percentage, i.e. actual over potentially full. 100% is moderately considered ideal, but some compression is OK, as long as the actual charge isn't over max.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. They only had a hornady book, and SMK 175 was almost identical too one of the hornady's, which recommended a 2.800 length. Sound about right for starts? Is there a website or perhaps iphone app that has information like this ?
I only plan on loading 308 for the distant future so dont want to splurge on a 35$ book so which can tell me how to load 38 acp or 9x19 or some spanish mauzer round.</div></div>

There are some bullets, like the .30 cal 150/155's, 165/168's, and 175/178/180's that tend to be sorta industry generic designs. They're all truly unique, but the differences are small enough that one can begin the process by treating them as generics, then doing a final load refinement for each. Just avoid extremes when you're starting out.

The key benefit of the books is not about the specific loads and whether or not you'll be needing each one. It's about the other lore that is crucial to understanding the handloading process effectively. For instance, reading and rereading (never a waste of time) those other parts throughly could have helped you with these question; but don't sweat it, we like to help, too.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">3. Bought the RCBS Comp 30cal seater and I'm totally confused on how to calibrate it (maybe it was suppose to come with instructions, mine didn't). After You Tube'ing and basically trial and error I got a 2.795 length bullet, and marked the setting at the top and locked the adjustment ring. The only procedure I found was to screw in the die until it touches, then back it off 1/8 turn. Touches what? The extended bullet seat goes up inside.</div></div>

Don't overthink this. Think in terms of what you want to end up with. This is a good instance where trial and error may be the fastest path to understanding.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">4. Is crimping a personal preference in the precision world or is there a majority? I'm guessing no crimping unless you some sort of pressure / seating guru. I vote no crimping for me because I'm probably more likely to bust my chamber doing so.</div></div>

Busting chambers would be rather low on my list of expectations here.

Crimping is about preventing bullets from getting set back by being banged back and forth in the magazine under recoil. In my opinion it's more important in semiautos, and less important elsewhere.

Once you become the Guru, you may wish to revisit this subject; but I think there are better ways to deal with regulating neck tension and its relationship with accuracy, etc.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5. Probably just ignore this question: Are there milestones that correlate to loading practices that improve precision? EG: Start worrying about bullet jump when you are shooting x inch groups at eleventy thousand yards.</div></div>

Actually, it sounds like you have a fairly good grasp of the priorities.

A) Make ammo that's not fugly or dangerous.

B) Make ammo that does the same thing, round after round.

C) Make that same thing also be accurate.

D) Make that same thing be <span style="font-style: italic">competitively</span> accurate.

E) Teach someone else, this is the final and most important step. This is where your mind reorganizes its knowledge so it can be understood by someone else. Somewhere in this process, it also becomes better undertood by <span style="font-style: italic">you</span>. Somewhere in this process, you will begin to recognize in advance where good outcomes will become more and less likely.

Nearly all of my firearms are factory rifles, with only minor tweaks like bedding, trigger adjustment, and load development. I have only two extensively modified rifles, a S/A C/F Savage Bolt Action Comp rifle (currently being rebarreled from .260 Rem to .30BR Norma), and a 10/22 (Obscenely modified, but she do shoot sweet!). I try very hard to keep my concentration down to only one project at a time, but even that can be daunting, and I almost always fail to keep it really, truly just the one.

I truly believe that Haiku is sadly overrated. Besides, didn't we whup their butts once, some time back? May be due for another... Maybe even a fresh round all 'round; let 'em all know who the big doggie really is... Best do it soon, while it's still so...; else maybe that could change some...

Welcome to The 'Hide. Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here, thy dies are all cast now...!

Greg
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

I hate to say this because on this site lately the answer to most problems seams to be "spend more money on more gear", which I rarely agree with. But in your case, your biggest problem seems to be charge accuracy. Investing in a beam scale (like the RCBS 505, not a big investment) and a powder trickle and useing it all the time would eliminate this problem imedeately. You could then go on with your loading and learning without having to worry about wether your charge was accurate or not. Charge weight is basic and not having to worry about it would free you up for getting deeper into the reloading game. Been useing a 505 and trickle for my precision stuff for 20+ yrs with no problems. I use the Lee dippers, then the trickler to bring it to perfect. Yeah, its slow comparitively speaking, but I dont worry about my charge being off. Good luck with it and stay safe.

okie
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

I agree with Okie. While complex techniques and equipment can generate more accurate ammo, the investments tend to generate diminishing returns rather quickly, and often enough, a lot of shooters/handloaders can't take full advantage of the improvement because they put their faith in spending, instead of developing their shooting and actual handloading skills to a commensurate level.

You can't buy accuracy, you can only buy the means to develop your skills to the point where better accuracy is possible. Asking me how I know involves admitting to a couple of decades with me trying to prove my own previous statements wrong.

Greg
 
Re: attack this noob, 5 questions

Bought a reloading book, read it, practiced for hours. Finally felt comfortable enough to reload 50 rounds (used brass not my virgin) and go shoot it. Used some win brass, 175 smk's, and 40gr of 4064. Seated at 2.800. Here at 100yds I shot 5 rounds, made elevation adjustment, one round, windage, and 5 or more rounds. I'm a novice marksman and shooting from bipod and bag.

IMG_0544.jpg


The only issue I had was my rounds got stuck while feeding from the internal magazine, but after pulling the bolt back a bit, the rear end of the case would pop up a bit more and then it would feed fine. Shorter factory HSM (about 2.66) fed fine.