I’m beginning to wonder if I should keep the order in for my V4? I am finding more complaints than praise about it. Aren’t newer versions supposed to be improvements over the prior version.
- Thread starter adamjmac
- Start date
That's because nobody posts praise. If someone is happy with something they just use it. You only hear from people when they are not happy for whatever reason. The problem is the same people will post the same complaint across multiple platforms which makes things look worse.
I'll respond and say I'm very happy with mine. Ive had mine since September (I was a Beta tester) and it's been great. Not perfect, and it takes a lot of tweaking to get just right, but for the powders I use I can get 98% good throws in 10-12 seconds. It does require more tweaking than the V3 but I love the V4 design especially for load development/ladders, which admittedly was my primary purpose for buying, which is an atypical case.
The damn threads in that small tube make it stall for what seems like forever on logs of RL33. I wonder what reversing the threads or making them coarser would do. It is capable of throwing 100 grains of RL33 in like 12 sec but it takes it 30 seconds if it’s waiting for that last kernel or two to make it down the small tube
It’s honestly bad enough on RL33 that I’m going to hand trickle the big stuff till there’s an improvement. A uniflow set to 99.7 grains and I’ll trickle the last .3 and beat the V4 every single effen time
I agree people bitch more than they praise. That’s universal. I also feel a lot of folks haven’t spent enough time with the V4 to work out the nuances and finite adjustments that are required for specific powders. It is a bit overwhelming. Aftermarket shims for this, tips for that, etc.
I had a few hiccups initially and the learning curve is steep if you haven’t used an AT before. My issues were all user ignorance/error. Now it seems to work well with A1680 and Varget at least. I may have a different opinion when I try some larger kernels.
My experience is that they are well worth the wait - No affiliation with any of the companies at all (or any firearms company period, for that matter). Before the Autotrickler, I was able to get SDs below 10 for everything EXCEPT .338 LM (300gr Scenar, Lapua Brass, N570, Fed 215M primers, AMP annealing, Giraud Trimming, Runout Checking with Accuracy One, OAL checking with gauges, etc, Brass sizing on a Zero and seating using a Wilson/Sinclair Click adjust chamber die, powder measuring done with a Chargemaster). I would get SDs of 11 or 12 (twenty shot sample size) using that approach - would chalk it up to being 2x as much powder 2x bullet weight so I shouldn't expect SDs in the same range. However, as soon as I introduced the ATv4 into my process, my SDs fell to 6.5fps. I had to shoot and measure two different days to believe it. I haven't gotten around to see how my 7-8 FPS SDs in my 6wildcat, 6.5CM and .308s will have improved, but if the .338 is any indication, I'll be very, very pleased.
I'm very happy with mine. Compared to the alternatives its great. Certainly could show some improvements. But I liked mine enough that I have a second that should be arriving next week. Consistent SDs below 6-7 when I'm in a node, and not spending hours upon hours throwing and measuring powder is wonderful. If nothing else, its bought me lots of time back that I can use to spend with the kids... (hence the second unit)
This doesn’t make sense to me. I’ve used n570 for 338 and 375 thousands of rounds. The kernels are so big that you’re never in that .1 grain error range like you would be with 40 of VARGET. Like whether you use hand trickling or RCBS CM or V4 or whatever, those logs are like almost 0.1 grains each and there ain’t nothing the V4 can do to fix that. I simply don’t get it. There must be something else at play
You're right about the grain size, but my hunch is that it's the consistency (no drift) of the scale. My CM would drift (even when left on indefinitely and with a power conditioner) over the course of a reloading session. I actually have two CMs (using one only for a reloading session, of course, so as not to introduce another variable), and they would both drift similarly.
yes my CMs (I had 2) also drifted, but independently and I worry that it did introduce another variable, which is part of the reason I got rid of them in anticipation of the V4. I'm honestly thinking of going back to the RCBS Uniflow and hand trickling.
Got my V4 notification, it's ready. I am very undecided on what to do though. I will be getting the ingenuity trickler for my v3 and I'm very happy with my v3 (other than the PIA it is to clean out and switch powders).
PM me if you decide to hang onto your v3 and would like to unload your v4…I’d love to take it off your hands as I have months until mine will be ready!
Anybody know why it doesn't save the calibration for powders? Am I supposed to re-calibrate every session?
Also, the drift on the scale is pretty bad. My cup weighs between 919.72 and 919.88 grains depending upon the session, and can vary by 0.1 grains within a session. I'm not sure how to deal with this, but it seems more than the CMs I used to have. It's odd, like I can pick it up at beginning of session to dump a charge and it will say -919.82 and 10-15 throws in, when I pick it up it will say -919.76 and manytimes when I put it back down, it goes to zero. How can it be returning to zero, but showing a discrepancy in the weight of the cup by half a tenth of a grain? Do you guys see this and what do you do about it?
Also, the drift on the scale is pretty bad. My cup weighs between 919.72 and 919.88 grains depending upon the session, and can vary by 0.1 grains within a session. I'm not sure how to deal with this, but it seems more than the CMs I used to have. It's odd, like I can pick it up at beginning of session to dump a charge and it will say -919.82 and 10-15 throws in, when I pick it up it will say -919.76 and manytimes when I put it back down, it goes to zero. How can it be returning to zero, but showing a discrepancy in the weight of the cup by half a tenth of a grain? Do you guys see this and what do you do about it?
tap the tube through with a 1/4-20, works like a charm, almost too well.
Bingo.
I applaud you for being observant enough to realize this is happening. Then, when you apply this from session to session... season to season... you'll see drift that is actually more than a tenth of a grain.
I have done everything imaginable to stop it, from a power cleanliness, anti-static, anti-draft, magnetic interference, and stability standpoint that the internet or anyone else knows about. It is my opinion, this drift is inherent in a $500 scale. Based on conversations I've had with scale techs, (very high level pharmacy suppliers) it will take about $5,000 worth of electronic scale to reduce drifting down to +/- 1 kernel of varget, or about 2 hundredths of a grain.
Realizing the truth of this situation is a bridge too far for some people. They'd prefer to just stick their head in the sand and pretend their scale is actually "to the kernel" accurate and precise. Pretend it doesn't drift at all... ever.
Suffice it to say, I wish you luck... but my solution to this problem is the same as it has been for a decade:
I built my new reloading bench in 2019. I mounted the Prometheus at that time. I zeroed it... and I have not needed to touch it since. Flawless, every single time... session to session, season to season, for years. The Prometheus is an instrument. The rest of all this stuff are just toys in comparison. Useful toys, as they save time and allow for a great number of worthwhile uses, but toys none the less.
I saw your post on that. Are there any downsides? Has Adam commented on why he chose the threads he did in the tube? I don't want to "fix" it for large bore stuff and then later realize I broke it for another powder...
Are you plugging directly into the wall? Try getting an uninterruptable battery supply (UPS). My computer is near my scale so I run a cord to my UPS and drift goes away. UPS are supposed to stabilize incoming power. Only 'drift' I notice is increasing weight when very fine powder accumulates in the cup. Wiping it down with a microfiber fixes this.
I have had this issue as well, not sure how to fix it glad I’m not the only one. Any V3 users have this issue of cup weights drifting?
Yes, this argument for the prometheus I will buy, even if I'm not prepared to buy an actual prometheus, LOL.Bingo.
I applaud you for being observant enough to realize this is happening. Then, when you apply this from session to session... season to season... you'll see drift that is actually more than a tenth of a grain.
I have done everything imaginable to stop it, from a power cleanliness, anti-static, anti-draft, magnetic interference, and stability standpoint that the internet or anyone else knows about. It is my opinion, this drift is inherent in a $500 scale. Based on conversations I've had with scale techs, (very high level pharmacy suppliers) it will take about $5,000 worth of electronic scale to reduce drifting down to +/- 1 kernel of varget, or about 2 hundredths of a grain.
Realizing the truth of this situation is a bridge too far for some people. They'd prefer to just stick their head in the sand and pretend their scale is actually "to the kernel" accurate and precise. Pretend it doesn't drift at all... ever.
Suffice it to say, I wish you luck... but my solution to this problem is the same as it has been for a decade:
I built my new reloading bench in 2019. I mounted the Prometheus at that time. I zeroed it... and I have not needed to touch it since. Flawless, every single time... session to session, season to season, for years. The Prometheus is an instrument. The rest of all this stuff are just toys in comparison. Useful toys, as they save time and allow for a great number of worthwhile uses, but toys none the less.
I'd love to see the results of, say, 50 charges weighted on an ATV4 and a CM, then re-weighed on a prometheus
It's quite hard to accomplish that, due to the way the charges enter the Prometheus pan. It's a pretty closed system.I'd love to see the results of, say, 50 charges weighted on an ATV4 and a CM, then re-weighed on a prometheus
Also, it's not so much an issue across 50rnds. It's 50 rounds, across multiple sessions, 3-4 firings... all behaving differently. Because that's exactly what happens.
I notice this too, not as bad as some, prob due to my load room being climate controlled and on its own clean power.
I still see drift as much as .04 grains some times on charge weights being thrown. I think part of the problem is the scale is not sensitive enough to pick up that last kernel or 2 as the scale stops and shows it is at weight / stable. I have actually observed this, light comes on, at weight and another kernel falls but the scale does not register weight. I think this might be something to do with the software. I know other scales have issues with drift software and trickling. In order to combat this I always check the scale with check weights before I start and if it is off then I calibrate the scale with the weight. Then I can calibrate for powder. I also run a 2nd AnD scale - EJ-54D2. I throw on V4 and that goes on the next scale. If it is within tolerance it goes in a case. I also still see a plus or minus of .02 just on cup weight, why I double weigh. For me it does not take a ton of extra time as I throw powder first then seat bullets. By the time I dump the charge in a case the next one is ready or just finishing, so not a lot of time loss. I only see a few charges that do not meet tolerance. When this happens I hit zero after placing cup and that usually fixes it.
I think there are other external variables that play with this too. I noticed when the AC unit kicks on, which is right outside the window of the load room, it can make the scale jump from the vibration. I also have hard wood floors and while I have mats in the load room to dampen vibrations, it can still pick up vibrations from people, doors and big cats running around. If I have to I will close the door and turn off the AC for a bit while I throw powder.
For the most part I can fire up the scales, let them warn up for a bit, verify calibration with a check weight and calibrate for powder. I can typically run 100 rounds an hour, not including the warm up time. ( this includes clean up after) It is not perfect but it does produce very good results.
My V3 used to have drifting issues. I've done the following to stop it.
1. Use a granite block base with anti vibration feet.
2. Power conditioner.
3. Side plexiglass panels to block drafts.
4. Started using an aluminum powder cup instead of the supplied glass cup. This seemed to make the most difference and I'm guessing it was due to static build up.
5. Use a calibrated weight to check calibration before and after letting the scale warm up for 30 minutes. Sometimes there is a difference after 30 minutes - if there is I power off the scale and then power it back on and recheck calibration.
6. I have nothing on the scale when I power it on. I used to power the scale on with the powder cup on it so it would zero with the weight of the cup on it. Now I place the powder cup on the scale after it has warmed up and then hit the zero button to get it zeroed with the powder cup on the scale. Using this method when I remove the cup it will register a negative value. I note this value and if the scale drifts that value will change so I know. Usually if it does change it means I have a kernel or two that popped out of the cup onto the scale.
1. Use a granite block base with anti vibration feet.
2. Power conditioner.
3. Side plexiglass panels to block drafts.
4. Started using an aluminum powder cup instead of the supplied glass cup. This seemed to make the most difference and I'm guessing it was due to static build up.
5. Use a calibrated weight to check calibration before and after letting the scale warm up for 30 minutes. Sometimes there is a difference after 30 minutes - if there is I power off the scale and then power it back on and recheck calibration.
6. I have nothing on the scale when I power it on. I used to power the scale on with the powder cup on it so it would zero with the weight of the cup on it. Now I place the powder cup on the scale after it has warmed up and then hit the zero button to get it zeroed with the powder cup on the scale. Using this method when I remove the cup it will register a negative value. I note this value and if the scale drifts that value will change so I know. Usually if it does change it means I have a kernel or two that popped out of the cup onto the scale.
I don't have a power conditioner, might have to look into that, I emailed CE and they gave a couple of suggestions and I will try and ground the scale or use a ferrite choker and see if that helps. Also would not have thought glass would or could have static issues.
Granite blocks with feet and aluminum cup - forgot to mention those, good points and I do that too. Also not storing cup on scale and letting it warm up with nothing on it, I think those things make a difference too.
You are correct, I mostly use RL33 and N570, so making the mod for smaller kernals may not be benificial.
Sounds like a tube with inserts for different powders would be the ideal way to do it
Which aluminum cup? I have read about issues with the shorter aluminum cups.
My scale/AT are on order. I’m setting up a space for it now and reading with great interest everyone’s issues. I’m sad that I missed out on getting a V3. But have great faith that many issues will be fixed before mine arrives.
Most of us use the 419 cup. You should read through my "static is driving me crazy" thread. Lots of legit info in it for set up
Area 419. I also drilled V4 funnel and inserted a tube tip that is cut down a little to ensure it does not clog. I have no splashing issues.
Buy the tip mod. It improved it a lot. Still had to tweak it but the thing throws faster and more consistent now. i am not a fan of this scale besides doing load work up.the tips should be included with ever scale sold.
I will agree with Orkan my Promethius is way better and throws exactly the same every time.
I will agree with Orkan my Promethius is way better and throws exactly the same every time.
I agree, if the unit had a larger tube for trickling then inserts could be swapped in and out for various feed rates of different size powder.
I have my V4 Still sitting in the box, I've took it out to look at it, Looks nice and I'm sure it's a decent machine but I'm still debating whether or not I'm gonna keep it or sell it. I like my V3, would like to try out that new Ingenuity trickler with my V3.
I would stick with your v3 and get an ingenuity trickler
It’s hard to be all things to all powders.
Lemme ask: was the V3 launch this problematic?
Lemme ask: was the V3 launch this problematic?
It still required some time and tweeking. I still have mine and might try the ingenuity trickler. That said, the real thing I like about the V4 is easier prep and clean up plus no stupid cables to deal with. I think the V3 is slightly more accurate. Throw times about the same. V4 seems to walk a bit more, not a lot but we are talking precision. The ingenuity seems to be tight and a good option. Kinda like scopes and reticles, pick your poison.
It's a glass cup, but has a plastic handle. I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue either, but tested using both cups and the glass cup would drift and the a419 aluminum cup didn't. I had to swap back and forth multiple times to verify the issue because I didn't believe it at first either.
That phenomenon been documented by many. The aluminum cup is the way to go.
I'll chime in here, I've had every version of the AutoThrow and AutoTrickler which now includes the V4 of which I was among the first to order. There is a learning curve for both the owner and the V4 itself. I run a couple of calibrations every time I change powders, only takes a couple of minutes. No, I don't throw powders that come on logging trucks, mostly Varget and H4350. Yes, I do get an occasional overthrow in which case I simply pick out a few kernels and reweigh. Yes, I did have problems when I first started using the V4 but as I said, I'm a happy boy.
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sooo did you do anything to the setting or run a tip?
IP owner says the trickler will help the V4 with overthrows but not speed. He feels V3 is still faster on avg by a few seconds it sounded like from email coms.
I'm using one of jthor's tips but have cut it back to the point where the diameter is just a bit smaller than the tube and forms a small lip that the powder has to spill over.
Just another's experience...
Loading 300 BO I was getting over runs with Enforcer which is an extremely fine powder.
I removed shims from the rear but did not re-calibrate, my charges stayed .02 under afterwards. I also have jthors tip attached.
The V4 is not perfect with every powder. I think thats a pretty tall order even at its price point.
Loading 300 BO I was getting over runs with Enforcer which is an extremely fine powder.
I removed shims from the rear but did not re-calibrate, my charges stayed .02 under afterwards. I also have jthors tip attached.
The V4 is not perfect with every powder. I think thats a pretty tall order even at its price point.
Someone just posted 2 of them in the px
I ordered through CE on the preorder & it was about 2 weeks from payment till receipt of unit.
The tip mod I did works fantastic with fine grain powders. Getting 5.5 - 6 sec drops & no over throws. Large tube at 18 & small tube at .22.
Coming from a CM I really appreciate how easy it is to switch powders, but stick Powders have been frustrating. I pulled the small tube and tapped it as deep as a std 1/4-20 tap would reach. Haven’t had a chance to try again with stick powders. It this doesn’t improve stick performance I’ll make a new small tube & tap all the way through with an acme tap.
It’ll be a while before I finish with ball powder. Lever, AA2200, Tac, & SBR-Socom. Once I get through this pile I’ll be running RL26, N555, RL15.5, & more H4350.
Experimentation is fun.
Primer tubes are the same size as the small trickle tube in the V4. Small primer tube with @jthor tip is proving to be pretty fast.
Primer tubes are the same size as the small trickle tube in the V4. Small primer tube with @jthor tip is proving to be pretty fast.
