Rifle Scopes Back to Vortex HD. Gen1 5-20X50 (EBR2B Mrad) or 4.5-27X56 HD (EBR 2C Mrad)

[fixxer]

This is a toughie for me. I patiently waited for the PST line to come up and finally received mine 2 years ago when they released. That was Fall IIRC. Not a bad scope but after some glass time behind a current gen1 5-20X50 and ATACR, I decided it was time to step up.

I have 2 purposes:
1: I plan on developing hand loads at 100-300yrds. I want a platform that phases out my Leupold 30X spotting scope. Especially since my spotter was taken by cancer last fall. The Gen1 5-20X50 I tried was phenomenal.

2: I also began ordering the last of my parts to start 300WinMag shooting. I have a barrel on order (you know how that goes; it's just gonna be the waiting game).

In the mean time, I have seen local competition having very good luck with the American Defense Cam lock mounts, so that's the direction I think I will got for that. It will let me trade my best optic around different platforms while I develop loads for them. We run our shoots to 600 yards locally and I believe the XLR training is centered around 1200yd shooting.

So (2) roles here: 300WinMag Comp rifle (mostly prone/bench) (since .338Lap suddenly worn out it's welcome at my 2 clubs due to "backstop erosion".)

A decent optic I can also swap as needed for load development. I've been hearing good things about American Defense cam mounts.

My primary hunting rifle is a built Rem700, which I'll probably just keep my Trijicon Accupoint hunting with. But not the best optic for developing hand loads with. My varmint/yote rifle is an SR25-ish build that gets the job done well with the same 2.5-10X56 TR23G

Now the waters muddy with the 4.5-27X56 Gen 2 HD has my interest piqued. I keep hearing over 20X power is "too much scope" but I really do want to get away from screwing around with spotting scopes every time I decide it's time to play with my load developments. In the end, it's probably going to homestead on a 300WinMag setup like my comp 308 has been (dead on nuts but lacking "legs" and stays within the confines of 600 yrds).

Same with my SR25-ish clone, which took over as the token hunting rifle with a Trijicon Accupoint 2.5-10X56 TR23G. Love this setup for brush hunting and short range target work.

I'm eager to get an optic and roll onto my next plan to get started XLR training with my favorite, local instructor. Currently, I'm mostly optic-less for LR shooting and have been focusing on carbine (BCM Recce with 4xACOG) and handgun self defense training to bide my time.

I can wait until Fall (when I suspect true availability will be had for the GEN 2 4.5-27X56) Or I can get currently available Gen1 5-20X50 HD. Price point difference is not so much of an issue. I really like the reticle, glass and features of both over the ATACR. My concern is that I don't wan't to be screwing around with optics if I decide the Gen 2 is a problem for non-relaod developing and it turns into basically a spotting scope.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thus far all I can tell is that the Vortex Gen 2 HD will add 13 ounces to my rigs. I'm not carrying particularly light to begin with, so oh well.

 

[WestTex]

I was.in the same boat as you and recently had a chance to compare the atacr and razor gen1 though only at a store and not in the field I ended up loving the glass on the razor over the atacr but I'm no glass aficionado. I ended up deciding on the razor gen 2 because I heard the eyebox was more forgiving as that was my only gripe about the gen 1.
Whenever I tried glassing on max mag with my vortex pst I could never clearly see the objects I was looking and felt I had to strain to see. After researching some forums here I started just running on lower mags (15-20x) and it helped tremendously. At the ranges you've listed I had no problem running at 24x for load development as well, even with the pst. I liked that I could see my holes in the paper at 250 with the pst.I upgraded to the pst from a monarch so naturally the difference was night and day for me.
I've never personally owned a leupold so I can't comment on a comparison there. I know the atacr was easy for me to get behind at max mag but ultimately I wanted ffp which led me to the razor. The razor gen1 for me was picky to get behind and I felt I had to be in an exact location to see clearly. Supposedly that has been addressed on gen 2. Not sure if this was much help.

 

[LawnMM]

If you don't have a genuine need to remove and remount your scope, frequently, skip the QD stuff and stick with a good set of rings or a quality non QD mount.

A good QD setup isn't cheap and even a good one will give you issues if its not adjusted properly. So unless QD is a must, skip it.

 

[fixxer]

I was.in the same boat as you and recently had a chance to compare the atacr and razor gen1 though only at a store and not in the field I ended up loving the glass on the razor over the atacr but I'm no glass aficionado. I ended up deciding on the razor gen 2 because I heard the eyebox was more forgiving as that was my only gripe about the gen 1.
Whenever I tried glassing on max mag with my vortex pst I could never clearly see the objects I was looking and felt I had to strain to see. After researching some forums here I started just running on lower mags (15-20x) and it helped tremendously. At the ranges you've listed I had no problem running at 24x for load development as well, even with the pst. I liked that I could see my holes in the paper at 250 with the pst.I upgraded to the pst from a monarch so naturally the difference was night and day for me.
I've never personally owned a leupold so I can't comment on a comparison there. I know the atacr was easy for me to get behind at max mag but ultimately I wanted ffp which led me to the razor. The razor gen1 for me was picky to get behind and I felt I had to be in an exact location to see clearly. Supposedly that has been addressed on gen 2. Not sure if this was much help.

Same here with the PST. I would put it on par with Leupold's hunting line, which is not terrible but definitely not in a tier with any of the big dogs offering HD glass. I'm sure you all are familiar with the typical "big fish" stories when you are attempting to evaluate something. I have to wade through a crowd of Leupold fanboys anytime I want to talk glass before I get to anything resembling true experience. I knew I would be selling my PST after getting behind some quality glass during a 600 yard tactical/practical match locally.

I suspect that the saving grace of my Trijicon Accupoint is that it has a 56mm objective, so it is nice and bright. Plus it's just a fantastic short range optic, even with the triangle reticle everyone seems to hate but is great for tracking moving targets. It is a little heavy for a "low power" but it is also nearly running true 4 power when you consider it drops down to 2.5x and up to 10x. No one in my local area has demoed or come close to handling a Gen 2 HD Vortex. My only concern is that I might be adding a 3lb optic when a 2lb might be good enough. The 6 guys out of about 350 that would actually be considered long range shooters (not "guessers") are mostly running S&B and USO but are also DMR's or retired DMR's that practiced with a lot of "house money"... The down to Earth types are running NF ATACRs' (one's been waiting for a BEAST, that is evidently hard to get). That's when I came across a Vortex HD and realized what you could truly get for $2K.

I also shoot short range a little at a retiree club. These guys are 70yrs old and married to a bench but make no mistake about them; they've done it for 40 years and know every aspect of their equipment. The budget ones run fixed high power scopes and BR rifles made to be welded down to their rest. Frankly, it bores me to tears after about the 2nd heat of shooting at something that doesn't move even though they spank my butt.

If you don't have a genuine need to remove and remount your scope, frequently, skip the QD stuff and stick with a good set of rings or a quality non QD mount.

A good QD setup isn't cheap and even a good one will give you issues if its not adjusted properly. So unless QD is a must, skip it.

Yeah, QD is a must or I'd save the $. I don't mind paying the money for quality QD since this will be used across several platforms for load development. I will likely not even zero it to the individual rifles I am developing for. I will likely throw some elevation on the turret to get the loads to fall within the hold over reticle pattern; and work loading ladders from there. I will only be developing reloads for 3 or 4 rifles, then the glass will pretty much reside on it's primary rifle. That is the only reason I would be interested in the 27 power on the high end.

On another note, I have seen some mention of the tactics changing; specifically through Magpul Academy, stating that high power mirage is not necessarily the killer it was once thought to be and is even useful for doping wind. And the fact that you can dial it down is a plus. I have also been told the opposite is true and overly bright high power optics tend to blind you over time in practice. I've never had this problem with spotting scopes but then again, we were never in the glass for extended periods of time. And unfortunately, I lost my spotter to cancer so I don't really have that luxury of having someone spot for me anymore, so I have been leaving the spotting scope at home and walking the field to mark and evaluate my targets. This gets tedious. If it were private property, and I didn't have live ranges to contend with, I'd just run my ATV or truck back and forth while the barrel was cooling.

Hell, I've even thought about buying a go-pro wifi cam and setting it up close to the target... But they are severely over marketed in their range capability.

 

[sib1948]

Either Vortex Razor HD would work for your stated purpose. My old eyes prefer the most magnification I can get! Dialing down is always an option. 3 lb weight of the 4.5-27X might be an issue on a hunting rifle.

 

[flatland1]

I've not had the pleasure of even getting close to one of the new Gen II Razor HDs - was really interested in trying one of the 4.5-27s until I found out they probably wouldn't be available until late in this shooting season. I've got a couple of the 6-24x50 PSTs, and have enjoyed shooting with them, out to 1400yds. But getting the chance to look through one of the 5-20x50 Razors kinda gave me a clue as to what I was missing. Ideally, having the opportunity to compare them side-by-side in resolving bullet splashes on steel out past 1000yds would've been a lot more meaningful, but wasn't able to do that. Whatever - if the new Gen II Razors are a significant improvement over the originals, then I'd say heck yeah - they're worth waiting for.

If you're looking to stretch out a bit, you might want to look into coming up to Spearpoint Ranch's LR steel matches. Couple of my good friends who shoot regularly at CKGC in Hutch shoot there. Steve's got steel out to 1400yds, but a 300WM is gonna be kinda hard on his steel at the closer distances.

 

[fixxer]

If you're looking to stretch out a bit, you might want to look into coming up to Spearpoint Ranch's LR steel matches.

That's exactly where I am wanting to take this. I'm probably going to miss this year. I'd like to get into SRT's LR training but it looks like I won't have my rifle setup in time for the training. Bill's Defensive pistol classes are great. He's supposed to be a great rifle instructor as well.

I am seldom this indecisive but I am also seldom ready to drop $2K-$3K on an optic.

 

[flatland1]

I shot Spearpoint matches with Sightron SIII or Vortex PST 6-24x50s the last couple of years, but made the move to ffp mil/mil scopes with the purchase of a Bushnell ET35215GZA this past winter. So far, I've shot only one match up there with this scope, but had good results with it. I figured I'd notice 21x vs 24x, but perhaps the Bushnell's optical quality made up for it.

Actually, I considered buying their 4.5-30x50 XTR, and running it at 24-25x like the 30mm scopes, since at least a couple of the guys who've commented here on that scope said it gets a little dark and/or image quality suffers at 30x. But then I started looking at the Kahles K624i with the DTA AMR reticle, and wound up going with one of them. Was hoping to get the chance to shoot with the Kahles at tomorrow's match, but am going to have to miss it due to work considerations. Maybe next month....

I guess if it were me, I'd forget about a QD mount, and get one of the 5-20x50 Razors with a free Spuhr 35mm picatinny 6 mil sloped mount from Mile High. Why wait until the Gen II 4.5-27x56 finally becomes available? By the time it does, you could've probably saved enough to trade up, if you decide it's worth it after you've had a chance to look through one of them. In the meantime, you could be enjoying & learning the mil system with the 5-20x50 while shooting it at Spearpoint.

 

[fixxer]

I guess if it were me, I'd forget about a QD mount, and get one of the 5-20x50 Razors with a free Spuhr 35mm picatinny 6 mil sloped mount from Mile High. Why wait until the Gen II 4.5-27x56 finally becomes available? By the time it does, you could've probably saved enough to trade up, if you decide it's worth it after you've had a chance to look through one of them. In the meantime, you could be enjoying & learning the mil system with the 5-20x50 while shooting it at Spearpoint.

Yep, spotted the ad. I've been behind the 5-20X50 EBR2B Mrad and impressed.

Alas, the Mrad combo is out of stock I'm done with MOA. Had that on my last PST setup and wasn't impressed with the ranging in imperial. Metric comes easy to me since I've been working on European equipment for the last 7 years.

 

[LibertyOptics]

If you can live without the Spuhr mount the EBR-2B MRAD both 5-mil and 10-mil turrets are in stock and ready to go.

When it comes to Vortex delivery times you truly need a Ouija board and even that is not reliable. In these times, a bird in the hand is definitely worth two in the bush, IMO

Scott

 

[bluto77]

Look into Kahles 624i Gen II. I've had numerous gen 1 razors, and loved them all. I like the kahles more. I haven't put it next to a gen ii razor, but I have seen them both separately. I give the nod to kahles. Also, considerably lighter than gen ii razor, which is almost literally a spotting scope with its weight.

Best value though will be the gen 1 razor. Can't be touched at that price point.

 

[fixxer]

If you can live without the Spuhr mount the EBR-2B MRAD both 5-mil and 10-mil turrets are in stock and ready to go.

When it comes to Vortex delivery times you truly need a Ouija board and even that is not reliable. In these times, a bird in the hand is definitely worth two in the bush, IMO

Scott

Sounds good to me. Or if you the first 15 aren't spoken for, I might pre-order the next gen. email inbound as per your signature.

 

[fixxer]

Thanks for all the help Scott (Liberty Optics). That is a great price on that Razor HD and mount. Your advice via email made my choice fairly easy.

 

[fixxer]

Hi all.
Just wanted to update that my Wife stated my order from Scott at Liberty Optics has already showed up. This was using the cheapest shipping method from Montana to Mid-Kansas in just 3 days.

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[flatland1]

Hey fixer - Greg's having a precision rifle match at CKGC this Saturday. It's a steel match, with some smaller targets at ~300yds, and larger ones at 500-575yds. Not much movement required, and generous time limits. Good way to get your feet wet, and meet some of the other shooters in your area. I won't be able to make it - got some friends coming into town, and Mom's 80th B-D party that evening. But you might want to check it out - good way to get familiar with that new glass....