BAD BATCH of Compass Lake spun Kriegers

[Tangodown911]

Guys perhaps you can shed some light on an issue a friend and I are having.

I bought a Krieger 7.7 spr profile barrel spun and chambered by Compass Lake with their CLE reamer. I got the barrel torqued to approx. 35 ft.lb. in a vltor receiver with a NSR rail. Lower is noveske with a two stage trigger. Super tight fit. In the beginning...first 17-20 rounds during proper breakin it was grouping tight, about .5-.75" using hornady TAP 75g. I even fed it some 62g Barnes TSX I had hand loaded. Those shot around .7-.8". All were done at 100y on a bipod laying in the dirt with a 10x scope. Amazing and thrilled I packed it up for the day.

I pull it out again on a different day and everything has gone to shit. Now shooting 2-3" groups with same ammo etc. Still cleaning same way. I have quality rods, jags, bore guide etc. I'm pretty certain I know what I'm going with the cleaning. This isn't my first rodeo with a quality SS barrel. For the first 20 shots it coppered and fouled like mad. I shot 40-50 more rounds through it in disbelief. Fouling and coppering is a little less. I did a deep clean on it and used KG2 bore polish to Polish the bore since I didn't have any JB bore paste after it was shooting bad. This was as per Compass Lake recommendations. Still no change and it shoots like garbage. We even switched scopes to a 25x mark 4 Leupy and shot from different positions. I tried hand loads, match factory ammo, and different shooters...still same groups.

I friend of mine buys the same barrel a few weeks later from Compass Lake, and well you guessed it.....same thing. Except his shoots same size groups from the beginning. His does clean up nice after little work and a few patches, etc.

I have another Krieger that is on a bolt gun but is a solid .1-.2" HAMMER!

Anyone else buy one of these barrels from Compass Lake lately? I know they have make one hell of a barrel. How can we get two lemons? Any thoughts?

 

[KULT]

Your issue is likely the that NSR is torqued incorrectly and the barrel nut has loosened - Also you might want to check the face of the receiver where the barrel extension shoulder seats to make sure its perfectly flat. I can't remember the spec on that but its like between 40-75 lbs . It is possible that the got a bad batch of blanks but they would shoot like junk from the get go.

Guys perhaps you can shed some light on an issue a friend and I are having.

I bought a Krieger 7.7 spr profile barrel spun and chambered by Compass Lake with their CLE reamer. I got the barrel torqued to approx. 35 ft.lb. in a vltor receiver with a NSR rail. Lower is noveske with a two stage trigger. Super tight fit. In the beginning...first 17-20 rounds during proper breakin it was grouping tight, about .5-.75" using hornady TAP 75g. I even fed it some 62g Barnes TSX I had hand loaded. Those shot around .7-.8". All were done at 100y on a bipod laying in the dirt with a 10x scope. Amazing and thrilled I packed it up for the day.

I pull it out again on a different day and everything has gone to shit. Now shooting 2-3" groups with same ammo etc. Still cleaning same way. I have quality rods, jags, bore guide etc. I'm pretty certain I know what I'm going with the cleaning. This isn't my first rodeo with a quality SS barrel. For the first 20 shots it coppered and fouled like mad. I shot 40-50 more rounds through it in disbelief. Fouling and coppering is a little less. I did a deep clean on it and used KG2 bore polish to Polish the bore since I didn't have any JB bore paste after it was shooting bad. This was as per Compass Lake recommendations. Still no change and it shoots like garbage. We even switched scopes to a 25x mark 4 Leupy and shot from different positions. I tried hand loads, match factory ammo, and different shooters...still same groups.

I friend of mine buys the same barrel a few weeks later from Compass Lake, and well you guessed it.....same thing. Except his shoots same size groups from the beginning. His does clean up nice after little work and a few patches, etc.

I have another Krieger that is on a bolt gun but is a solid .1-.2" HAMMER!

Anyone else buy one of these barrels from Compass Lake lately? I know they have make one hell of a barrel. How can we get two lemons? Any thoughts?

 

[bp7178]

If the barrel nut was loose, the rail would NOT be in alignment anymore.

I'd look at the muzzle device and how it was torqued. Try shooting without it to be sure.

I'd put some more rounds through it before giving up completely.

 

[KULT]

I would suggest taking it apart and following the install directions to a tee. I don't have the instructions but do recall them saying to tighten to 40lbs and then loosen and tighten again until you get the correct timing. Then shoot it again after you rezero.

If the barrel nut was loose, the rail would be in alignment anymore.

I'd look at the muzzle device and how it was torqued. Try shooting without it to be sure.

I'd put some more rounds through it before giving up completely.

 

[Tangodown911]

Loosened and tightened several times. Barrel nut/rail was still aligned. My friend upper was put together with a KAC urx keymod and torqued to 65 in.lb. this was KACs spec. and still no go.

 

[Tangodown911]

We also removed the flashhiders, two different types by the way, and still no improvement. My guess is bad blanks and/or chambers were cut out of whack.

Both guns group, then begin stringing vertically and horizontally. Yeah I know...it's a mess.

 

[AntiSaint]

How many different loads did you try? Have you called Compass Lake?

They're working on a Douglas SPR barrel with their match chamber for me right now and it should ship any day. I'm curious about the issues you're having.

 

[KULT]

Bummer... Well then I would call them. Usually with problems like this I got to a smith friend of mine who makes barrels from blanks for answers.

We also removed the flashhiders, two different types by the way, and still no improvement. My guess is bad blanks and/or chambers were cut out of whack.

Both guns group, then begin stringing vertically and horizontally. Yeah I know...it's a mess.

 

[Tangodown911]

Several loads. Either it's shoots or it doesn't. These barrels, note I say barrels, as in plural are both having problems. I have called compass lake and the upper has been sent back. So I will see what they say at some point. They assured me they would make it right. But that was before my friend put his together and now it's bad. I was hoping to find out from others if they had any issues or heard of this. I'm not trying to dog Compass Lake or Krieger by any means. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this and get so e first hand info from others who may have experienced something like this. I've always viewed Krieger and the match grade standard when it came to barrels by which all others were judged. I know every once in a while even the best make a bad product. But here's two that are probably many barrels apart if not a different lot of blanks all together.

 

[AntiSaint]

I'm puzzled as to what it could be. I'm no expert but I do know the AR platform very well. Make sure you update this thread once you get word from CLE.

 

[MSTN]

This is the excuse you've always needed to buy a borescope.

 

[bp7178]

What is the date stamp on the barrels?

 

[Tangodown911]

2-14 and 3-14

 

[bp7178]

Its hard to lock down a production problem on something that far apart. Is the total round count similar between the two? Its not unheard of that cut-rifled barrels "settle-down" as the round count moves up, somewhere about 250 IIRC.

Is there any possible other similarities between the two?

Did you shoot any other ammo after the TSX for groups the same day it was shooting well?

 

[Tangodown911]

Barrel 1 went to shit after 20 rounds.
Barrel 2 was pretty much not shooting good right out of the gate. Barrel 2 has about 45 rounds on it now. We have pretty much decided its pointless thinking a 2+ inch barrel will become a .5" barrel by shooting it more. My other Krieger (not an AR) was a hammer from the get go. First 3 rounds were less than .25". I agree this is a tough one. I wish I had a bore scope. I can for see barrel 2 going back to them soon after what I saw.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Who knows. CLE will make it right. I've used them exclusively for my Service Rifle barrel needs for about 15 years. For any problem like the one described the customer should first call Frank and describe the problem. BTW, the Douglas barrel from CLE on my current Service Rifle is perhaps the best barrel I've ever enjoyed. Half inch arena 20 round groupings at 100 yards with irons makes me think its delivering.

 

[19Scout77]

Come on now Sterling...1/2 inch 20 rd groups with irons at 100...with a service rifle???? Did you happen to shoot those groups on the bridge you are selling? You know, the one that connects manhattan to one of the outer boroughs...

 

[Sterling Shooter]

I know how to shoot. On my latest practice target, an MR-31, I had a score of 198 and 17. Those 17 rounds produced roughly a half inch grouping within the 3/4 inch X ring shooting 53 grain flat base open tips over 25 grains of H335 stuffed in Win. brass primed with Win. I think that's in the arena of a half inch. I'll post it.

 

[rjacobs]

keep this thread updated since I have one of these barrels on the way from them. Hate to have a $500 paperweight.

 

[Tangodown911]

keep this thread updated since I have one of these barrels on the way from them. Hate to have a $500 paperweight.

Yes will do. No problems. I just called this morning and they assured they were working on it. My goal it to get the quality barrel I paid for. I'm sure a solid .75 moa barrel is not to much to ask for.

 

[Layton]

I got a 24" Krieger from CLE with their chamber mid January and it does through fliers like I would expect from an AR but shoots fine otherwise. I had to jump both Bergers and SMKs ".030-"035 to make it shoot though. And it did collect a lot of copper for the first 100 rounds or so but now it cleans just like my Bartleins. Doesn't help this problem but gives you a timeline on their blanks if that happens to be an issue.

L

 

[maggitas]

I had a similar problem with my AR it turned out the bipod was defective. Have you tried another bipod or shooting off sandbags?

 

[Tangodown911]

I had a similar problem with my AR it turned out the bipod was defective. Have you tried another bipod or shooting off sandbags?

Yes. Multiple ways. Multiple shooters etc

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Here's the only thing you know for sure: consistency was lost at shooter, gun, and/or ammunition. Something could have become loose, or was possibly damaged. Could have even been cleaning technique. I hope the OP posts Frank's findings.

 

[Tangodown911]

Not cleaning technique. I have bore pics of the gas port on barrel 2. Can't post them now but they are interesting. Wes you are a genius.

Eta- gas port is damaged. Appears to be from a burr from drilling.

 

[Tangodown911]

I have 15 pics of gas port that can't post. Can someone pm me their email address and I'll get the photos to them if they can post them?

 

[bustin]

Guys perhaps you can shed some light on an issue a friend and I are having.

I bought a Krieger 7.7 spr profile barrel spun and chambered by Compass Lake with their CLE reamer. I got the barrel torqued to approx. 35 ft.lb. in a vltor receiver with a NSR rail. Lower is noveske with a two stage trigger. Super tight fit. In the beginning...first 17-20 rounds during proper breakin it was grouping tight, about .5-.75" using hornady TAP 75g. I even fed it some 62g Barnes TSX I had hand loaded. Those shot around .7-.8". All were done at 100y on a bipod laying in the dirt with a 10x scope. Amazing and thrilled I packed it up for the day.

I pull it out again on a different day and everything has gone to shit. Now shooting 2-3" groups with same ammo etc. Still cleaning same way. I have quality rods, jags, bore guide etc. I'm pretty certain I know what I'm going with the cleaning. This isn't my first rodeo with a quality SS barrel. For the first 20 shots it coppered and fouled like mad. I shot 40-50 more rounds through it in disbelief. Fouling and coppering is a little less. I did a deep clean on it and used KG2 bore polish to Polish the bore since I didn't have any JB bore paste after it was shooting bad. This was as per Compass Lake recommendations. Still no change and it shoots like garbage. We even switched scopes to a 25x mark 4 Leupy and shot from different positions. I tried hand loads, match factory ammo, and different shooters...still same groups.

I friend of mine buys the same barrel a few weeks later from Compass Lake, and well you guessed it.....same thing. Except his shoots same size groups from the beginning. His does clean up nice after little work and a few patches, etc.

I have another Krieger that is on a bolt gun but is a solid .1-.2" HAMMER!

Anyone else buy one of these barrels from Compass Lake lately? I know they have make one hell of a barrel. How can we get two lemons? Any thoughts?

Unlikely that the Krieger blank is the problem.
I've seen more than a few chambers from CLE not concentric with the bore but that doesn't explain shooting good then not. More than likely the barrel extension was not tight enough. I had the same thing happen with a 308 barrel from Accuracy Speaks. The first 10 were near 1/2" then it got worse as the day went on. I found the loose extension and re-torqued it but then the gas port was off center. I ended up running it with a canted gas block.

 

[Tangodown911]

I sent the pics to maggitas who offered to post the pics. Hopefully they will be up soon.

 

[LRRPF52]

I had this happen with a super match Douglas SPR barrel. Shot 1/2" out of the pen, then opened up.

Bore scope analysis showed.....





Gas port bur deforming the bullets, throwing them all out of whack. Bur broke off, gun went to .75". Any time you get a new barrel, inspect the bore, then run a brass brush down it to remove the bur from the gas port if present. It is one potential headache in the AR that simply isn't there on a bolt gun.

 

[maggitas]

Pics

Here are some pics

 

[maggitas]

additional pics

More pics

 

[LRRPF52]

Looks very familiar...

 

[maggitas]

Last of the pics

Last of the pics

 

[Tangodown911]

Last of the pics

Much appreciated sir!

The scary part is how many have barrels were sold and shipped like this? Remember we bought our barrels several weeks apart. I hope it was only a few for the customers sake.

 

[oneshotkyle]

I ordered a Krieger 1 in 7.7 18" long from compass lake a month ago with the highest of hopes till I just read your post. got billed for it just this Monday and awaiting it's arrival. I sure hope this is not the norm. keep us up to date on your issue and I will inspect mine for any such problems. no disrespect to compass lake as im sure they will take care of the issue promptly.

kyle

 

[bp7178]

Those gas port pics look like every AR15 barrel in which I've ever seen borescope pics of, you should see how nasty it looks at 10,000 rounds...

I don't know if a copper brush would be enough to remove a burr from the gas port being drilled.

I also don't think a burr, which would be hard to survive the first bullet, would all of a sudden cause the groups to open up.

 

[Tangodown911]

Those gas port pics look like every AR15 barrel in which I've ever seen borescope pics of, you should see how nasty it looks at 10,000 rounds...

I don't know if a copper brush would be enough to remove a burr from the gas port being drilled.

I also don't think a burr, which would be hard to survive the first bullet, would all of a sudden cause the groups to open up.

Those pics are after 45 rounds. I also looked down a Daniel Defense CHF barrel today and it doesn't look like this. That barrel has had 400-450 rounds down it.

I too am skeptical of a bronze brush removing a burr.

 

[Layton]

Would slugging it remove the burr?

L

 

[arnie19]

Im curious how a hole is drilled for the gas port with out getting a burr? I wonder if pouring cerrosafe down the barrel to the area your going to drill would prevent it . Or maybe forcing a lead slug down to the right spot .

 

[Tangodown911]

Ports should be drilled most of the way, but finished with a reamer then the barrel is finish lapped. This is the correct way to do it.

They come finish lapped from Krieger and shipped to Compass Lake. So I'm not sure how Compass Lake is doing the gas ports.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm still pretty new to this...but how would a gas port burr "knocking bullets out of whack" allow the barrel to hammer when brand new and go to shit the second time to the range?

 

[Tangodown911]

Good point. But don't know what gas port looks like in the barrel that was shooting good the first few rounds. Those pics are of barrel #2s gas port that shot bad from the beginning.

 

[bustin]

Much appreciated sir!

The scary part is how many have barrels were sold and shipped like this? Remember we bought our barrels several weeks apart. I hope it was only a few for the customers sake.

That is normal gas port erosion in a stainless barrel, it is not a burr. A drill bit can not produce that kind of erosion in a barrel.
That is not what is causing the bad accuracy. I have a Krieger DCM barrel that I have had since 2007. It looks a lot worse than that and still shoots under 1/2" off the bench with 69gr SMks.

 

[Tangodown911]

I spoke to Frank. It is a burr.

Also that is normal erosion for a gas port with 3000+ rounds through it not 45 (according to Krieger who has also seen the pictures)

It may produce that kind of premature erosion if the steel is also bad. Bunny (Compass Lake for those of you who don't know who she is) assured us this afternoon with all things considered they would be replacing both barrels with NEW barrels and we should have then next week.

Stay tuned.

bustin I hope my Krieger shoots 1/2" too.

 

[bustin]

I spoke to Frank. It is a burr.

Also that is normal erosion for a gas port with 3000+ rounds through it not 45 (according to Krieger who has also seen the pictures)

It may produce that kind of premature erosion if the steel is also bad. Bunny (Compass Lake for those of you who don't know who she is) assured us this afternoon with all things considered they would be replacing both barrels with NEW barrels and we should have then next week.

Stay tuned.

bustin I hope my Krieger shoots 1/2" too.

That's pretty weird because I think a burr is a raised piece of metal protruding from the surface due to a dull bit and too fast of feed rate not erosion deep into the metal. But hey if they want to replace your barrels good for them. If you can borescope your next barrel after 45 rounds just for the heck of it.

 

[Tangodown911]

Look at the pictures close. It's both raised burr, and erosion. I have since borescoped several barrels. We just scoped another stainless 18" barrel with over 1000+ rounds that looked 20x better shape than this one at 45. So I doubt the next one will look that bad after a few rounds....as long as it's deburred etc. correctly. Like I said, erosion could be from bad steel. I don't know if this is the case here but it's a possibility.

 

[bustin]

Look at the pictures close. It's both raised burr, and erosion. I have since borescoped several barrels. We just scoped another stainless 18" barrel with over 1000+ rounds that looked 20x better shape than this one at 45. So I doubt the next one will look that bad after a few rounds....as long as it's deburred etc. correctly. Like I said, erosion could be from bad steel. I don't know if this is the case here but it's a possibility.

yes I've seen it almost daily for the last 20 some odd years, I inspect 20-50 new barrels a day on average. Knowing Krieger I doubt it's bad steel, that is the one company that will not send out bad product. If those are DCM barrels which I believe they are because the port is between the lands. Krieger turns the barrel, and short chambers it. Krieger drills the gas port. All Frank does is chamber it and crown it. I just looked at a new one in the bin that has not been chambered, no burr around the gas port just a perfect hole. I have a .224 wildcat barrel on the shelf in the next room that has had 20 shots fired through it. It looks almost as bad as the photos you posted. I guess it doesn't matter since they are sending you a new barrel. Might be a good idea to bore scope it before you shoot it and then again after 50, that will answer your questions first hand. If you still have the barrel use the bore scope around the crown.

 

[taliv]

interesting pics and info. i've had fantastic barrels from compass lake, but the last two wouldn't come anywhere close to 2 MOA. more like 4 MOA. I ordered a Krieger / CLE chamber from them a few weeks ago and am expecting it any day. Sure hope they sort this out before then.

 

[Tangodown911]

Barrels are 18" SPR contour. As per Krieger the blanks are sent to Compass Lake and Compass Lake does the work including drilling the gas ports. I suppose certain folks order them certain ways. We will most certainly check these barrels meticulously before they're fired and as they're broken in. I'm glad to see Compass Lake is making this right and we are excited to get what we paid for.

 

[Tangodown911]

interesting pics and info. i've had fantastic barrels from compass lake, but the last two wouldn't come anywhere close to 2 MOA. more like 4 MOA. I ordered a Krieger / CLE chamber from them a few weeks ago and am expecting it any day. Sure hope they sort this out before then.

When did you order those two that did not shoot well?