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Suppressors Baffle Strikes...

Johnny Sasaki

Johnny Sasaki

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Minuteman
Sep 26, 2010
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Lost in the Universe, on a ship, a living ship...
#1
So I just got my suppressor (AAC SPR/M4) in today and I was totally stoked to take it for a quick range trip to hear her perr.

DSC_0226-1.jpg


DSC_0227-1.jpg


Some of the things I like? Thing is wisper quiet, and I wasn't even shooting it wet. On top of that the thing just looks badass.

What do I not like? I forgot to bring a oven mit with me (I had one ready but forgot it on the way out the door) and the thing gets crazy hot, so I had to sit there and wait a while, and the thing just doesn't want to cool down with any quickness, so I resorted to putting the cover it came in on it (I figured it was at least semi melt/burn proof) and then put the rifle in the case that way. Seemed to work fine.

Also, TALK ABOUT DIRTY!! Jesus, I mean everything has a thick layer of crust on it, including rounds that weren't even chambered yet. So it blew dirty gases all the way down the mag well and in my face also I might add. Good thing I had eye protection on.

Keep in mind this is less than 90 rounds.

DSC_0219-1.jpg


And now what I'm here to complain about; the minor baffle strikes I got due to the rocksett they sent me not working. I installed the flash hider exactly the way they instructed, and the damn thing came loose during operation. Here's what I'm talking about:

DSC_0223-1.jpg


DSC_0225-1.jpg



Doesn't look like any internal baffle strikes, unless the baffles aren't supposed to be hexagonalish, which it looks like they are, but it really bothers me to see it bent out like that on the outside, expecially when it's not even really my fault.

So what should I do? Call them and see if they can fix it or will it not cause any problems?
 
#2
Re: Baffle Strikes...

First off who let you know that you could shot a rifle can wet ?

Edit to add...
I know you the BF is not from shooting wet.

Second, you can give them a call and see what they can do.
I would say talk to the guy Mers is in there public relations dept.
They may want the remaining rocksett back for inspection.
When installing the adapters the surfaces have to be scrupulously cleaned.
I ended up using brake clean, hot soap water and acetone in that order as I was paranoid.

Based on what thay say (after all the can will be away for awhile) you could use a block of wood and a hammer to flaten out the protrusion.
Just get something to support the back end as not to damage the ratchet.
 
#4
Re: Baffle Strikes...

Never heard of Rocksett coming loose and I've shot the same setup full auto (couple hundred rounds) shall we say rather quickly and never had it come loose. Also note a wet rifle can is likely to be over pressured and will result it a can looking much like the one you have pictured. Some can are wet rated for rifle but lots are not so make sure yours is rated for it first.
 
#5
Re: Baffle Strikes...

Yeah, those stupid ass bottles are always dry when I open them up. They just recently redid the packaging to a sealed bag. I wouldn't go as far as to say that is the cause of the baffle strike. Your mount would have to come really far off and be really loose to misalign it so bad to where it would strike would a good round.
 
#6
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnny Sasaki</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wirehand</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First off who let you know that you could shot a rifle can wet ?

</div></div>

The manual it came with. </div></div>

I'll be darn It's in there.
For the longest time it was preached that water in a high pressure can is bad.
The cantalever/reflex design must be able to handle this as the M42K and 762-sd manual don't say this is an option.
 
#7
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah, those stupid ass bottles are always dry when I open them up. They just recently redid the packaging to a sealed bag. I wouldn't go as far as to say that is the cause of the baffle strike. Your mount would have to come really far off and be really loose to misalign it so bad to where it would strike would a good round.</div></div>

It was quite loose. It didn't feel like it when I was shooting, and like I said, I couldn't touch it because I forgot my oven mit and it was like 700 degrees.
 
#10
Re: Baffle Strikes...

Nice little end cap strike, do you have one on the break? You should. My buddy is developing a SBR, it has a Ops Inc M4S on it. Lent the prototype to a local SWAT team from some research & testing, came back with an end cap strike, much more significant than yours. Dumb ass used frangible ammo, but had no noticable affect on accuracy.
 
#11
Re: Baffle Strikes...

The end cap strike will not hurt you shooting unless its internal. I question the threads on your barrel to get a cap strike right off the bat. I had a bolt gun threaded by a guy that I should have not used..... learned the hard way I guess. It struck my SWR Omega 30 and I flattened it back out with a small hammer and piece of teflon block. Works fine.

I would have your barrel rethreaded or buy a Noveske barrel that is already threaded. You should not get cap strikes with good ammo. 9 times out of 10 its going to be barrel thread related. you could have your barrel cut down, rethreaded and the break perm installed.

How long did you let the rockset sit for? If you got the can, mounted the break then went out shooting you were at fault. It has to set for at LEAST 24 hours and the threads on the barrel and inside the break have to be very clean.
 
#12
Re: Baffle Strikes...

Well like I said, it was pretty loose. If there's like 20 or so revolutions to put the flash hider on, I'd say it was about 5 revs loose. And for the record, the rocksett was on for about 7 weeks before I shot it, and it seemed like it was on pretty damn good. The only thing I can think of is I didn't clean it well enough. I guess I'll just try and clean it better this time and hammer the little bump down and see if it happens again. If it does I'll have to call them and see what's up.
 
#18
Re: Baffle Strikes...

They will gladly replace the end cap for you if you want, but i've picked up an end cap strike (after 6K rounds) through my M4-2000 and i'm not too worried about it. If you do send in the can, they might ask they you send your barrel too so they can check for concentricity of the bore and threads: this is why i use only premium barrels.

I've heard from folks that end caps strikes are pretty common on AAC cans...

As for mitigating gas face, consider RTV'ing a charging handle and installing an "AR Gas Vent".

Me and a buddy were at Magpul Carbine 2, and shot about 800 rounds in one day. We were both using M4-2000 cans, 14.5" barrels with carbine gas systems. I used a RTV sealed BCM charing handle and AR gas vent, he used a PRI Gas buster.

129630129.jpg
 
#19
Re: Baffle Strikes...

I've installed a lot of fast-attach mounts from various manufacturers over the last several years. Many of those were AAC mounts. I have a hard time believing a properly installed mount would come loose at all with 90 rounds of typical semi-auto use. I really can't fathom the mount coming that many revolutions loose. I am more inclined to think either the host weapon threads and/or the threads inside the mount were not properly de-greased before installation or too much Rocksett was used. No matter what I can't imagine the mount was torqued to proper spec. The Rocksett isn't the only thing holding the mount in place. Proper torque needs to be applied. Heck, I've installed the SPR/M4 mount on various machine guns for testing purposes with only torque holding the mount in place.

I make these comments not to upset you (OP) but to point out other possible issues here in the hopes of reducing chances of a repeated problem.

As others have stated the strike on the end cap likely isn't going to adversely affect accuracy. Unless you see accuracy issues I wouldn't worry about it.

Best of luck.
 
#20
Re: Baffle Strikes...

+1 on what Mark said
I've shot a couple thousand rounds with only torque holding the can / FH on.

As far as your end cap strike goes.
You really need to examine everything very closely.
Check your barrel threads / shoulder, and FH in particular.
It looks like you can fix the end cap fairly easy yourself with the methods previously mentioned.

Good luck and have fun!
Be forewarned, they are very addictive...
 
#21
Re: Baffle Strikes...

..

"I've heard from folks that end caps strikes are pretty common on AAC cans"

Me too, but it isn't an AAC issue, its a QD issue with improper maintenance/use.

90 rounds is an extreme example of not understanding the operator's responsibilities in properly preparing, using and maintaining a QD assembly.

Suppression relies, in part, on the tolerances around bullet path, those are the very same tolerances that are greatly increased when a QD can is used. In other words, QD designers understand that QD cans require a larger tolerance progressive bore. TO see a can get a strike in only 90 rounds speaks volumes about the operator's understanding

•Threading on a suppressor remains less than 20 seconds, is the strongest, most precise and cleanest way to mount.

<span style="font-weight: bold">•QD is the number one problem concerning alignment and potential baffle strike.</span>

•QD provides the poorest of gas seals under extreme conditions, degrading suppressor performance.

•QD is not as accurate on precision rifles as properly threaded assembly.

•QD units quickly “carbon up” creating considerable assembly/dis assembly issues that threading does not.

•QD is actually QA (Quick Attach) as a suppressor may go on faster, but when that suppressor gets hot, it gets red hot, and is hardly QD.

•QD, with its requirement for the flash/compensator is heavier on the barrel and can be longer in length. LOOK inside your QD can, all that wasted volume that encompasses the break is not only not suppressing, but flowing gas poorly to the suppressor. QD can use more than 2” of wasted suppressor space, causing additional weight. When determining suppressor weight, ADD the break back into the formula.

•QD requires the operator to buy more proprietary gadgets for the end of every weapon that will have a suppressor mounted.

•QD uses a different pathway bore than a thread-on accuracy pathway. They are most commonly a progressively larger bore to allow for the comparatively loose tolerances in QD. That creates poorer suppression as well.

If you use QD maintain absolute control over attachment integrity.





 
#23
Re: Baffle Strikes...

A QD attachment properly and permanently attached by a professional works just fine. All suppresors will loosen up if not watched. The heat does it given the heating and cooling changes. You need to check it now and then, and unless you are in combat there is no reason not to. A set of nomex gloves is a real good idea as they all heat up fast.

If it is properly installed and checked now and then you should NOT have baffel strikes. Take your time when screwing it down and make sure it is not off by a thread,it happens and if you do not catch it you will shoot the end of your suppressor off.
 
#24
Re: Baffle Strikes...

..

You have asked this before, the answer remains the same.

As far as AWC and QD is concerned, their first QD was 1986 at the request of the U.S. Marines. QD is soft science and pretty straight forward. It is most popular with people that want to quickly mount a can up on a variety of different barrel threaded hosts by providing a uniform can attachment interface. They are essentially "adapters" with brakes (some better than others), nothing more, nothing less. And as such, must be used with additional care given to all adapters. With their genesis on sub gun calibers, the initial requirement for "accuracy" was much less. Grab a 9mm or .45 and tri-lock (3 lug) yourself silly. Massive bore tolerances made up for all the deficits. But to even begin to properly suppress rifle caliber cartridges with their smaller caliber and tighter cans, the devil in the details came out. Need a tight pathway? centering of projectile pathway within the baffles the highest priority? Want to maintain uniformity in that pathway through the majority of the baffle set? You are not using QD.

90 rounds to strike is a remarkable reminder of the very real consequences of improper QD use. Just take a second to think about how out off axis a can has to be to be strike an end baffle enough to deform it. In 90 rounds?

People can use QD for the life of the can and never have a strike. Its all about understanding the tolerances and the resulting requirements and diligently acting on them. Its not about a "brand", hasn't been "brand" specific for 25 years, its operator specific.

2togocopy.jpg
 
#26
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

You have asked this before, the answer remains the same.
</div></div>

I don't recall ever asking you about any possible affiliations. If I had done so and remembered the answer, I wouldn't have asked again.

So, the question remains. Are you affiliated with any suppressor manufacturers?
 
#27
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just my 2*
Thou I don't have a QD mount , I secure my suppressor with a High Temp rated rubber o-ring instead of a crush washer or Rockset, threadlocker..etc...
Its never backed off on me yet , but I can still wrench it back off by hand if needed.. </div></div>

I would caution you against using an o-ring or crush washer to secure a thread-mount suppressor to its host weapon. Those could allow the suppressor to seat crooked on the threads. That could lead to end cap or even baffle contact with a projectile at some point. Does the manufacturer of your suppressor advise using either an o-ring or a crush washer?
 
#28
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

You have asked this before, the answer remains the same.

As far as AWC and QD is concerned, their first QD was 1986 at the request of the U.S. Marines. QD is soft science and pretty straight forward. It is most popular with people that want to quickly mount a can up on a variety of different barrel threaded hosts by providing a uniform can attachment interface. They are essentially "adapters" with breaks (some better than others), nothing more, nothing less. And as such, must be used with additional care given to all adapters. With their genesis on sub gun calibers, the initial requirement for "accuracy" was much less. Grab a 9mm or .45 and tri-lock (3 lug) yourself silly. Massive bore tolerances made up for all the deficits. But to even begin to properly suppress rifle caliber cartridges length increased and with the longer cans the devil in the details came out. Need a tight pathway? centering of projectile pathway within the baffles the highest priority? Want to maintain uniformity in that pathway through the majority of the baffle set? You are not using QD.

90 rounds to strike is a remarkable reminder of the very real consequences of improper QD use. Just take a second to think about how out off axis a can has to be to be strike an end baffle enough to deform it. In 90 rounds?

People can use QD for the life of the can and never have a strike. Its all about understanding the tolerances and the resulting requirements and diligently acting on them. Its not about a "brand", hasn't been "brand" specific for 25 years, its operator specific.

2togo.jpg
</div></div>

Is it break or brake?
 
#29
Re: Baffle Strikes...

..

You are of course right, fixed, sorry...

I knew Mac for 30+ years, along with many others in many disciplines. Like I said, this isn't brand specific, its about 90 rounds to strike.

..
 
#30
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

You are of course right, fixed, sorry...

I knew Mac for 30+ years, along with many others in many disciplines. Like I said, this isn't brand specific, its about 90 rounds to strike.

.. </div></div>

I think it is more about something not being installed correctly.
 
#32
Re: Baffle Strikes...

I agree with Bookhound. I think your barrel is off, and your brake was not installed properly.

Have a reputable gunsmith rethread that barrel and install your muzzle device. My SPR/M4 run like a champ on my MK12 Mod1 upper. Never had a strike or hiccup.
 
#35
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a "brilliant idea " that popped into my head one day as I could still back the suppressor off without any kinds of sealant/ or locker . The o-ring is very thin and the suppressor still contacts the barrel seating face . I will look into this with MFR. </div></div>

The suppressor should seat against the shoulder on the barrel.
 
#37
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea thats what I meant ! Shoulder ! LOL

I am talking about the shoulder ..not muzzle crown ...

</div></div>

I must not be understanding you. Sorry, I am slow sometimes. LOL.

IF you are saying that the back of the suppressor does NOT contact the barrel's shoulder directly but rather there is a piece of rubber between the two surfaces, then that can be bad. Is that what you are saying?
 
#39
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

Bookhound

"I knew Mac for 30+ years, along with many others in many disciplines. Like I said, this isn't brand specific, its about 90 rounds to strike."

One of the many remarkable people along the way..

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2207141#Post2207141


</div></div>

Seriously, you are answering (well, sort of) my very direct question with the type of "answer" I'd expect from a politician. Let me try again...

Are you affiliated with a suppressor manufacturer?

That is a simple question that should have a simple "yes or no" answer.
 
#40
Re: Baffle Strikes...

..


no, neither am I paid, nor sell, nor receive suppressors, nor favor one brand over another for any reason other than determinations made through my own efforts, conclusions drawn through use, with success and failure and a deep and broad experience as the only means of arriving at my conclussions. I rarely mention brand, try to address issues from the technical perspective. I try to assist anybody, as do most here, with a sense of fairness and even handedness.

As stated above by me, 90 rounds to failure is remarkable, has nothing to do with AAC, everything to do with a failure to understand the foundation issues surrounding proper set-up and maintenance of QD.

PS, there are a number of can makers that supply locking washers for cans destined for FA use. Not required nor intended for most, there are those that want the can on, want it on precisely and want it to stay on until the time they strap it off.


..
 
#41
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Johnny Sasaki</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of the things I like? Thing is wisper quiet, and I wasn't even shooting it wet. On top of that the thing just looks badass. </div></div>

I have a SWR Wolverine....it is not that quiet. Rounds coming out at 3000fps can't be whisper quiet...just saying.

Sorry, about the baffle strike. I'd have it fixed. Not a "safe queen"...but I think it would just bother me.

-Al
 
#42
Re: Baffle Strikes...

Ugh, lots of wordiness in this thread.

The bottom line here is that no matter whether a thread on can is used, or a QD mount is used, the barrel threads must be concentric to the bore, and the bore of the suppressor must be concentric to the barrel bore. Period.

If that happens, there will be no baffle/endcap strike, unless the baffles or endcap are smaller than the bore (or there is out of spec ammo).

The precise reasons for non-concentricity may vary (bad barrel threads, bad mount, bad installation, or a combination of any of those), but if everything lines up the first time, then the bullet will pass through without hitting anything, and it will continue to do so, unless the barrel bore and the can bore relationship changes (or you get a bad bullet).

I believe that suppressors MUST be installed by those with the skill to determine that a bullet strike will not happen, and that the mount is properly installed. That usually means a competent gunsmith.

If something is wrong, then a competent gunsmith should have the knowledge to methodically eliminate the cause of any misalignment, and correct it if possible.





 
#43
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea thats what I meant ! Shoulder ! LOL

I am talking about the shoulder ..not muzzle crown ...

</div></div>

I must not be understanding you. Sorry, I am slow sometimes. LOL.

IF you are saying that the back of the suppressor does NOT contact the barrel's shoulder directly but rather there is a piece of rubber between the two surfaces, then that can be bad. Is that what you are saying? </div></div>

The o-ring compresses to the point where it does make metal to metal contact,its not that thick and have to stretch them over the threads , i was using teflon threadsealant for a while (before I went to just the o-ring and a dab of anti-seize ,) it would harden up as the suppresor got hot , but would still come off fairly easily if it was needed... I am not a big fan of any types of thread sealants that use a chemical bonder..there is always the chance of galling up the threads ..
 
#44
Re: Baffle Strikes...

previous quote > The bottom line here is that no matter whether a thread on can is used, or a QD mount is used, the barrel threads must be concentric to the bore, and the bore of the suppressor must be concentric to the barrel bore. Period.
+1 I had a local gunsmith thread my .308 twice !! and still had baffle strikes ...sent everything to GAP ...all fixed now !
 
#45
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morgan711</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yea thats what I meant ! Shoulder ! LOL

I am talking about the shoulder ..not muzzle crown ...

</div></div>

I must not be understanding you. Sorry, I am slow sometimes. LOL.

IF you are saying that the back of the suppressor does NOT contact the barrel's shoulder directly but rather there is a piece of rubber between the two surfaces, then that can be bad. Is that what you are saying? </div></div>

<span style="color: #FF0000">The o-ring compresses to the point where it does make metal to metal contact,its not that thick and have to stretch them over the threads , i was using teflon threadsealant for a while (before I went to just the o-ring and a dab of anti-seize ,) it would harden up as the suppresor got hot , but would still come off fairly easily if it was needed... I am not a big fan of any types of thread sealants that use a chemical bonder..there is always the chance of galling up the threads</span> .. </div></div>

As an avid suppressor enthusiast I strongly recommend you do not use any of the methods recommended above. You do not put anything in between the shoulder of the rifle barrel and a thread on can. You use nothing but peel washers on a muzzle device that NEEDS to be timed. His are neither, the spr/m4 mount is screw on, torque down and run it.
 
#48
Re: Baffle Strikes...

I've been under the impression that the shoulder being square to the bore axis of the barrel was just as important (If not more so.) than concentricity of the threads themselves. I've noted that even my noveske bbls have a bit of wiggle when threading suppressors on until it snugs up on the shoulder.

It would be nice to know what barrel manufacturers take into account suppressor usage on their barrels.

Sending every barrel out to be checked and fixed would be an expensive endeavor. I'd much rather have a guarantee that it would work directly from the manufacturer.

On my AR's I try and test as best as I can for concentricity and squareness. I use a quality one piece cleaning rod that's the same bore diameter in conjunction with a bore guide and some orings on the rod for a decent fit in the bore guide. With the rod hanging straight up and down so it doesn't flex I observe the tip of the rod right as it passes the endcap. If it looks evenly spaced all the way around in different light, I consider it good. I remove and replace the suppressor a few times to double check.

I don't know if this is standard practice, but it seemed like a decent enough way to check a thing like this.
 
#49
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Salmonaxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been under the impression that the shoulder being square to the bore axis of the barrel was just as important (If not more so.) than concentricity of the threads themselves. I've noted that even my noveske bbls have a bit of wiggle when threading suppressors on until it snugs up on the shoulder.

</div></div>

Yes, this is correct and very important.
 
#50
Re: Baffle Strikes...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LSUbeatUby40</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had the rocksett BS come off on me after about 300 rnds of semi shooting.. Luckly, I got no strikes, so I just reverted to blue lock-tight.

And yes, I did let it cure for about 3 days.. </div></div>

If the mount came loose after only 300 rounds it very likely was not torqued to spec. Another very common issue is failure to de-grease threads. I mentioned this in an earlier post.

The Rocksett is not some superglue compound that is supposed to keep these mounts in place all by itself yet that is exactly how most people view it.
 
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