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Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why is there a deer in that house.</div></div>

hes in a house because you wouldn't be shooting a deer that was sitting in a car, its probably already dead.



I laughed my ass off making that in paint just for lindy!
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance



John [/quote]

I've always wanted to try shooting targets over a hill to see if I was really that in touch with the flight path of the bullet.

Would be a fun experiment no doubt.[/quote]

it's easy to do if you have an aiming point, like the head on a cardboard cut-out, it;s fun, try it some time
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

Gents,
I did this drill with some guys from Tier1 Group a few years back, very enlightening. Target was at 500 I believe and the window /field of view was roughly 300. Great appreication for the apex of the bullet flight that was roughly 27 inches high from my line of sigth. Cardboard witness backer recorded this and hit still made on target. .308 168gr BTHP rounds used. Something to think about when working in a limited field of view environment.

ST
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

There is a lesson on this in the online training we do it all the time in Class... very limited on it's use and application due to the restricted FOV.
 
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Most LE shooters likely don't have the ranges to put it to practice but only see the high speed drawings like the one on this post. I like it, much better than I could draw and paints the picture well.

ST
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

here is a definition of OPSEC according to the NSA

Operations Security - The process of denying potential adversaries any information about capabilities and/or intentions by identifying, controlling, and protecting generally unclassified evidence of the planning and execution of sensitive activities

lowlight has already said it - use a ballistics program and look at the path of the trajectory when you change zero distances - at some point there will a close zero(point of impact) crossing very near to the muzzle , as well as your zero point of 100, 200, 300, 400, etc., that you set

USMC primary marksman instructors use it, when teaching BZO for m-16 etc , EVERY weapon that has a trajectory has this BLACK MAGIC capability . . .

shhhhhhhh - there are other much more useful trajectory tricks, that dont' restrict field of view, and they involve hitting hidden or obscured targets, targets behind a berm, etc.

and are taught , just gotta know where to go
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Guess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can anyone tell me the formula for ballistic loophole clearance??? </div></div>

The norm in life now with computers, is no one wants to do/think for their self in this country, anymore. Instead of trying first, then asking for help,... Every want and need is now supposed to be just a key stroke away.

I believe the internet has taken away the ability of folks to try to think/do for their self and that's the way many, many in power want it. I for one am glad I grew up learning/doing things for myself, as it's easier to smell whats being shoveled as fact at times.

As for your question, I guess it would be to much trouble to try an think about how set something up and shoot threw it and see the issue's first hand. If a dumn ass Alabama Hillbilly like me can figger this out,(done it years ago) surely you college boys can w/o a piece of paper and a power point speel. One other thing, it's very easy to spot a round hole in nature, so when you cut or pick a hole to drive thru, be sure the asshole looking back is dumner than you are.

Lastly, if you have to ask on a open forum, do yourself a favor and stay home, because where this and other things are used, you might as well be wearing blaze orange as cammo. But, if your just going to be bar sniping, stories about this will lower the wall between the skirts, and draw more Remoras.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lickskillet, AL is gorgeous this time of year !
</div></div>

Lickskillet is nice all the time, compared to other places I've hung a hat and paid tax's
grin.gif

Then again anywhere they say yall and call ya Nabor, ain't that bad,
laugh.gif
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

this isnt rocket science think about it. your scope is mounted a certain distance above your bore and the loophole is wat your trying to shoot through to hit your target at a certain distance. so if you really wanted to figure it out grab a couple boxes of ammo and your trued rifle. hang lets say a rug with a perfect whole number circle cut out of it and shoot at a 100m target making corrections using mil holds not dialing from behind this object. i figured it out in less then 25 rounds and it is a effective formula that can reach out a long ways
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

ya i may be four months late but i bet alot of people still havent figured it out on there own yet and i wont even start talking about tran-sonic flight algorithms for shooting targets well out side of a mile. and yes a bullet is still lethal according to the studies well past 3000 meters i have seen the data
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: poapoi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ya i may be four months late but i bet alot of people still havent figured it out on there own yet and i wont even start talking about tran-sonic flight algorithms for shooting targets well out side of a mile. and yes a bullet is still lethal according to the studies well past 3000 meters i have seen the data </div></div>

oh boy.....
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: poapoi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">and yes a bullet is still lethal according to the studies well past 3000 meters i have seen the data </div></div>

I've seen data that said TW M-80 ball ammo, had no chance in hell of out shooting 173 grain SB at distance.

That data was dis-proven with certain lots of TW in the field.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

If you haven't been trained or on a need to know. Make it just bigger than the bullet dia.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 0481</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you haven't been trained or on a need to know. Make it just bigger than the bullet dia.</div></div>

Come on man let's be real about all this. Everyone knows that bullets shrink when they go down the barrel. So you would go to go with a 1/4inch hole for a .308, or a 7/16inch hole for a .50. It doesn't work if you don't get video of it though.

In all honesty anyone who hunts a thickly wooded area should have an idea of how this stuff works.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

man i cant beleive i read all that crap only to have it end with a crude picture of a deer in a house... but when Lindy said "yeah like that" i laughed so maybe it was worth it.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

HillbillyfromAL I was going to post about the hunting in wooded areas. When you start seeing wood splinter all over hell you know you did not do it right. Lol That is how I learned how to shoot threw small holes.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

^^^ Exactly. That's something that as a teenager I learnt real quick. A 30-30 can blaze through twigs, but a big branch=running deer.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I for one am glad I grew up learning/doing things for myself, as it's easier to smell whats being shoveled as fact at times. </div></div>

Boy I'm late to the thread, but I know a great signature quote when I see one
smile.gif
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trajectories are secret? </div></div>


+++1 ROFL

exactly my thoughts but I didnt want to get flamed......LOL
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

It really should be a T- Shirt and say " why not to shoot the dear that is in the 800 yard hallway!

I dont understand why the military thinks their formula is so top secret, any math professor could figure this out in minutes from scratch.

It seems like I could get a lil complicated to to if you were above or below your hole, from a mathmatics stand point, I am NOT a sniper though and HAVE NOT been trained in this !!! I am very swift with math though.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

There is one secret to good shooting which is of apocalyptic proportion; and yet, even when revealed, it is not comprehended or appreciated by most. I've alluded to it here (not on this thread, but others) since it's tied to marksmanship at the highest plateaus, and in fact shooters can not get to the highest plateaus without comprehending its importance. Thing is, folks walk over this revelation without so much as ever even glancing at it, looking instead to gimmicks, distractions, and deceptions to good shooting promoted by profiteers whom so loudly proclaim these distortions as to drown out the truth of the matter. It makes me recall an LR event I won many years ago where a shooter approached me after the event wanting to know what my load was. He was a guy just getting into LR shooting. He wanted to know the details about my load because he thought it was something important to good shooting. And, no doubt a good handload is important; however, what was clear to me from my conversation with this new guy was how oblivious he was to my words regarding the big picture. He was not interested in that. He was only interested in guns and ammunition details. At any rate, I ran into this guy the other day and discovered he had gotten out of the LR thing. It's no wonder why, that's what happens to folks who have been attracted to the deceptions and gobbledygook of shooting instead of placing their focus on basic marksmanship knowledge and skills.
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

I could be totally off but would this be the formula?

I used the picture below to help along with reading many posts and diagrams

X = Distance from hole
Y = Distance from hole to target
Z = Target Range
L = Loophole Distance
A = Hop up level (Solution)

So would it be…

L = X * Y
A = L/Z

Or
A = (X*Y)/Z

or something along those lines?


Photo


Once again, i could be completley off
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Zeroed1983</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who can't figure this out is officially not allowed to borrow my chronograph...</div></div>

lol...
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

I read the post above and had to laugh:

My old friend Russ got into shooting several years ago. One day he stopped by the farm after being at the range. He looked distraught and down.

Me: What’s up Russ, You look like you lost your best friend?

Russ: Well, you’ll probably hear about this sooner or later.
I was shooting from the 200 yd. line and some guys came
over and asked me if we might move to the 600 yd.
position as they wanted to try their new chronograph.
No problem!

Me: So, how'd it go?

Russ: I set up my rifle on the bench. Took aim at the target,
squeezed the trigger.
(you guys can probably see this one coming.)

Me: And?

Russ: Damned bullet hit his fricken Chrno Box.

Me: Much damage?

Russ: Hell yes, blew it into a thousand pieces.
Got to pay for a new one.

Me: LMAO !!

I miss Russ very much as he’s past. But he became a Legend that day.

Well, that's the way I remember it. Gutowsky
 
Re: Ballistic Loophole Clearance

on a side note.. i once put a round across a field into a cow barn side door over the cows heads...out the other side window and into a groundhog another 100y out from that ...



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

smile.gif
 
few days ago I did some shooting exercise through a little windows, distance from barricade between 9 and 12 meters, height of windows 4 to 6 cm, shooting position seated with tripod, target distance 230 meters, the field of view was very small, I was aiming to the box of my target.

holes in the barricade, 4x4 and 6x6.. I didn't use the bigger 8x8 all in cm's



first 3 rounds using a 6x6 hole



last 2 rounds using a 4x4 cm hole













I've used FFS to have the correct clearance
 
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Nice shots there one shot ST. For those who are curious, this information can be found in the owners manual of FFS which can be found here, starting on page 82. Anyone with $500 to spend can buy this software with this feature on it. No voodoo involved, no security clearance needed, no secret handshakes. :) If you've used any ballistic software or an App with a trajectory page/graph on it you will soon realize you already have this information available to you.

http://www.lextalus.com/pdf/FFS Manual 4.8 - V.pdf


A video of this function can be found here:

23. Tools - LOS Metrics - LTFields's library

This is not all of it and some of the graphics are not present that are in the manual linked above but here is something to get you started:



LOS Metrics
The purpose of this work area is to enable a user to shoot through a small opening at a target a substantial distance beyond. The difficulty is that as the bullet leaves the muzzle it is well below the line of sight (LOS) of the shooter who is looking through the scope, through the opening and at the target many meters away. The bullet, however, has a path that moves upward and at some point will cross the LOS and continue in its arc to the target. Far down range, the bullet will again cross the LOS. A well placed shot means that this second intersection of the LOS is precisely at the vertical plane of the target. In that event, the bullet will strike the target exactly at the point of aim.

In order to shoot through an opening, the problem to be solved is to locate the path of the bullet with respect to the LOS in order to determine whether the bullet has room to pass through the opening at the plane where it is situated. This will, of course,depend directly upon the distance between the muzzle of the rifle and the down range location of the opening, its size, and the bullets trajectory with respect to the LOS of the shooter looking through the opening at the target.

Mode 1 - locating the first intersection with the LOS
W hen the bullet crosses the LOS initially, the bullet’s axis is nearly coincident with the LOS which would mean that the opening for this shot need not be much larger than the diameter of the bullet. This is a theoretical minimum since such a small opening would have extreme limitations on the field of view beyond its plane so as to render its use impractical at least. Nevertheless, knowing the distance from the muzzle at which the bullet crosses the LOS is valuable information since it guarantees that a shot can be taken through any opening of any practical size. Therefore, when the opening calculation form first opens, it automatically calculates and displays this distance based upon the currently loaded bullet, scope variables (scope zero and scope height) and atmospheric variables. (After this form is first opened, the state of the form will persist from use to use such that if the user was working with a particular mode, upon return the work in that mode can continue.)

Mode 2 - locating the bullet’s path with respect to the LOS
Tapping the second radio button enables a data entry box for the input of a distance between the muzzle and the opening. The resulting calculation is the path of the bullet at that distance. A negative value indicates that the bullet is below the LOS; a positive value, above. This value should tell the shooter whether the opening he is looking through has sufficient height to accommodate the bullet at the calculated distance above or below the LOS. The shooter can adjust his distance from the opening until the bullet is sufficiently close to the
LOS to allow it to pass through the opening without interference. M oving toward the opening will cause the bullet to move downward from its current location; moving further back will cause the bullet to move upward.
An interesting application of these concepts is the problem of shooting through a chain linked fence. The openings in the typical chain linked fence is just slightly under 2 inches square. Adding a reasonable buffer and the actual area to shoot through is more like 1.5 inches square. For example, assume a target at 250 yards and a chain- linked fence at 175 yards. For a typical .308 W in. cartridge, at 175 yards the bullet would be 2.78 inches above the line of sight given a 250 yard target. C aveat: For a variety of reasons, the program does not deal with cross-wind vertical deflection, Coriolis, or Eotvos effects on the loophole page. Therefore, when the opening is at range, be aware that there may be a small vertical and horizontal deflections that may have to be accounted for. Note windage value at opening. This assumes ambient wind effects from muzzle; this value may have to be modified mentally to the extent that some part of the
distance is shielded from the wind.
Tapping the units drop-down menu and choosing
M ils gives a value of 0.44 M ils above the LOS. The shooter would therefore make certain that reticle point at 0.44 M il would be centered in one of the link openings at the time the rifle is fired. Presumably the bullet would encounter the fence at the opening, travel through and on to the target.

Mode 3 - m inim um bracketed reticle values
Pressing the third button enables a data window to input the height of a particular opening and a second data window to input the distance between the muzzle and the opening. The resulting calculation tells the shooter the minimum reticle values to hold off the bottom and top of the opening in order to avoid having the bullet hit the opening structure. The portion of the reticle that is between these two values
must be kept clear of opening’s boundaries since allowing the boundary to encroach into this area risks having the bullet impact the opening’s structure. The values, given in either mils or M OA, are calculated to give a buffer of one caliber from the bottom and top of the opening. Of course, actually seeing the top and bottom may be a problem since the shooter may be too close for the scope to allow the opening itself to come into sharp focus, so these boundaries may be blurred. Nevertheless, the calculation will help the shooter be able to see, even if somewhat imprecisely, whether he is holding too high or too low such that he risks striking the structure. As long as the edges of the opening are outside of the bracketed area, his bullet should be able to travel through the opening without being compromised.

The user will note from the above example that the opening itself may be indicated in inches, centimeters, M ils or M OA units. These last two are impractical for specifying an
opening’s size but may be helpful in understanding the size of the opening in terms of reticle and where, using only the reticle, it would be safe to engage a target with assurance that the bullet will pass through. For example, the image shows the reticle brackets for a typical .308 W inchester cartridge, a 100 yard zero and a scope height of
1.5 inches. Here an opening of 10 inches has been specified with a distance from muzzle to opening of 7 yards. The bracketed area for the scope is calculated at 1.9 to
1.2 M ils which means that neither the bottom or top edges of the opening should encroach those limits in the scope. (Note that upper bracket is actually a buffer equal to one caliber at this distance. W hile the reticle could conceivably be placed right up against the top edge of the opening without a problem, the program was created using the opening height less a distance equal to two calibers so that there could be a one caliber buffer both top and bottom.)

The bracketed “No-Go” area is shown in red in the left graphic. This is the area which encom passes the possible bullet paths through the opening at the current distance. As the shooter moves down in the opening looking at targets near the bottom of the loophole, the bottom edge of the opening will be coming up into the scope. The bottom edge must not encroach into the red area. If it does, the bullet will almost assuredly strike the bottom of the opening. The same is true for the top of the opening and keeping it out of the red area. If the top of the opening touches or invades the red area, the shooter risks placing the bullet at or above the top edge of the opening. The bottom line is this: Keep the bracketed area clear and the bullet will move through the opening on to the target.

The graphic immediately left shows the same information as shown above except that the units have been changed to M ils. This gives a perspective to the shooter that the window opening at this distance is 39.7 M ils in height; the bracketed values are simply telling the shooter that he must stay away from the bottom and top 1.9 and 1.2 M ils
respectively of the opening. Note that this number represents the included angle formed by the muzzle at the vertex of the two lines extending from the muzzle to the top and bottom of the opening. As the shooter moves closer to the opening, this included angle increases dramatically. At some
point, the values given for both the opening size and the reticle brackets become unusable. For instance, if the distance to the opening was only 5 feet, the included angle would be quite large and the calculation would produce a result that would be meaningless on a practical basis, as shown to the right. The 10 inch opening has become 166.7
M ils in height and the bracketed values have become 20.9and 5.1 M ils. Because most scopes do not have reticles that subtend 21 M ils, knowing that the minimum distance the shooter must keep from the bottom of the opening is 21 M ils is not information that can be readily used.

However, it is possible to figure out where the bullet is with respect to the LOS at a distance of 5 feet by using M ode 2; the solution is shown at the left. At a distance of 5 feet from an opening, it can be seen that the bullet is 1.26 inches below the LOS at the opening itself. W hat can be done is for the shooter to look beyond the opening and at the field of view where he can choose a landmark that optically appears to be 1.3 inches above the bottom of the opening. W hen viewing the field of view through his scope, he will know immediately when he is in danger of encroaching upon the bracketed area when the intersection of the reticle elements are at or below this landmark. At that point, the bullet path is now within 1.3 inches of the bottom of the opening and the bullet will potentially strike the structure surrounding the opening. The shooter holds fire and waits for a target that is located at a point above the landmark.


2unzipv.png
 
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For those asking me about this...

A any program can figure this, even the cheapest app for your phone. Change the zero range to the target range and have the app give you 1 yards increments. Find where it goes from negative to positive, in my screenshot for a 500 yard target it's right around 15 yards.
 

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