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Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

USN_Sam1385

Private
Minuteman
Jul 10, 2010
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0
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How to Break-in a Barrel
-- A Dissenting Point of View

Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. Here he argues that elaborate barrel break-in procedures do more harm than good.

Comments collected from Gale's Gun Forum postings.

As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'.

More from Gale McMillan: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

That was a dissenting point of view ten or fifteen years ago, and while most makers still recommend break in, the number of shooters drinking the kool-aid has diminished greatly.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

A friend of mine was a break in and cleaning fanatic until he turned a 3/4 MOA rifle into a 2 MOA rifle in less than 500rds

The worse the accuracy got,the more he scrubbed it thinking it was fouling causing it.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: JOS
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

We see it too often down here.

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Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I took my GAP to the range the day I got it, ran a patch through it, then threw a hundred rounds down range. No adverse affects to my knowledge. Still shoots great...
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

+1....the more I'm around this gun stuff the more I think breaking in barrels is junk science. Great waste of time, effort and components. My two cents..
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

But removing fouling is another matter altogether...
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I think there is a balance depending on what condition your barrel is to start with. Considering the several types of barrels (broach cut,cut rifling,hammer forged,button rifled,chrome plated) each will have a different surface finish. If your barrel has a poor surface finish or roughness it will make it harder to get clean.

Firing and repeated cleaning between shots likely helps dirt from getting embedded and to smooth the barrel some.If your barrel is already very smooth I doubt you get much in return from "break in". Also with a plated barrel its likely a moot point also.

My Krieger barrels have needed no break in and all of them clean easily. Several military surplus rifles with broach cut barrels are no where near as smooth and take a while to get clean.

YMMV~
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Here we go again. Treat your stuff with love and respect....
smile.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRRahHX9Zkg&feature=player_embedded
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I have never made a barrel, I am by no means a gunsmith, but I<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bacarrat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We see it too often down here.

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I think this may be a guy that's just happy to be on the range and away from his wife for a bit.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

If you go back and look, this site has been pretty consistent on not putting that much faith in barrel break ins...

Some will always do it, it's part of the right of passage I think for them, others will do it out of fear of what they think might happen.

But for many on here the, <span style="font-style: italic"> "go out shoot it"</span> is definitely the dominent position.

less and less are you seeing people clean their rifles after 20 or 40 rounds even in a normal setting. Instead you people going 200 to 1000 rounds in between cleanings and are not seeing any adverse effects. No great loss in accuracy, nor a decrease in barrel life.

At the end of the day, many will say, do what makes you feel good, which is a fine answer when you really get down too it.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

slightly off topic, but any comments on if it is truly bad to pull a bore brush back through instead of removing it every time and starting from the breach? seems overkill to me especially with the infinitely softer metals of the brush and or jag to the crown.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

We tend to use the Iosso brushes <span style="font-style: italic">(nylon))</span> more, but I pull mine back through... rods have bearings in them to spin, so the idea you going counter seems extremely anal to me.

I go back and forth regardless, I just let the rod spin in the handle
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

When a barrel reaches the gunsmith prior to chambering, it's in its all time best condition. A quality SS match grade barrel that has been hand lapped is not in need of a break in period.

The term "Barrel Break In" is a common misconception and poor choice of words for what actually is happening. After a barrel is chambered there are very small, microscopic tolling marks left in the throat from the reamer. This is the area that is being "Broken In" if you will. For barrels like Krieger, Bartlien, Rock or any other quality match grade SS barrel, if chambered properly, copper fouling usually stops after 5-8 rounds.

Truth be known, when you get your rifle from the smith you can shoot it on day one and clean when you’re finished with no ill effects. No break in process. If the throats looks like a rasp though........totally different story. Most of the time the blue we see on the patch during cleaning is from the brush we use and not the copper left in our barrel.

With research you'll find interesting studies on how small portions of our bullets copper jacket turns to plasma at the throat as it's forced across it with pressure and extreme heat and re-solidifies when it reaches the muzzle as it cools. This is the copper we see at the muzzle and read it as fouling from being forced down the bore. This is a common perception but, couldn’t be further from the truth.

It’s been said a 1000 times, barrel break in is a myth and is a poor choice of words for what actually happens. Like JJ says............shut up and shoot.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Agreed...I stopped being anal about it years ago and have not noticed any ill-effect as a result. Now I guess I can stop feeling guilty about it. thanks
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marauder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">slightly off topic, but any comments on if it is truly bad to pull a bore brush back through instead of removing it every time and starting from the breach?</div></div>

There are those that say you'll fret the crown and degrade accuracy if you pull the brush back through. I haven’t seen it yet with any of my rifles and I've had some that were cleaned every 20 rounds. They drilled until they were shot out or cleaned out
wink.gif
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I always thought that the reason to brush in one direction was so that you don't pull gunk back into the chamber... which doesn't make a lot of sense, because I don't clean the brush before sending it back down the bore again. But I have always done it that way.

I use the brush minimally anyway, so not really a big deal, I guess.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Marauder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">slightly off topic, but any comments on if it is truly bad to pull a bore brush back through instead of removing it every time and starting from the breach?</div></div>

I pull back through.

However I use nylon brushes and make sure the bristles are allowed to fully exit the muzzle before reversing direction.

On occasion this has caused "old timers" to almost stroke out.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Shooting is more fun than cleaning....
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We tend to use the Iosso brushes <span style="font-style: italic">(nylon))</span> more, but I pull mine back through... rods have bearings in them to spin, so the idea you going counter seems extremely anal to me.

I go back and forth regardless, I just let the rod spin in the handle </div></div>

I can only imagine what life must be like inside a barrel when a bullet is exploded down its path. I push the brush out of the barrel and pull it back the opposite way it went in. And that is without bearings. I do notice the parts of the rod want to unscrew, which probably serves the same purpose. Once in and out with solvent to loosen up the junk and finish up with patches. Seems simple enough.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Why then do most Benchrest and Fclass shooters who are self admitted accuracy nuts do a break in routine? I have always did a 20 rd break in on all my rifles and they all shoot great. I dont know if it helps or not but it has always helped me. Would my rifles shoot as well without the breakin? I dont know but its my routine now and Im not gonna change. So pay your money and take your choice
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuscalino</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why then do most Benchrest and Fclass shooters who are self admitted accuracy nuts do a break in routine? I have always did a 20 rd break in on all my rifles and they all shoot great. I dont know if it helps or not but it has always helped me. Would my rifles shoot as well without the breakin? I dont know but its my routine now and Im not gonna change. So pay your money and take your choice </div></div>

There is a good chance they are old dogs to this "new" trick. Also a good portions of them have been successful in their methods for years and don't see a real reason to change it. If they think it works for them. Fact of the matter is they can still out shoot me.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

A bench rest shooter has no clue what his barrel will do after 1000 rounds of use, as well they change barrels like people change socks... they are constantly seeking out new barrels.

I don't know about you, my last barrel was changed at 12,000+ rounds, the barrel before that at 15,000+ so honestly, I am not interested in a Benchrest accuracy with my rifle... it's not a bench rest gun, a 1/2 MOA is more than fine up until it hits .75 -1MOA and then I will change it.

You can't go by people who are trying to engineer a shooting solution. Their game is less about the shooter and more about the money they spend.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Like many things in life, I think success can be found in moderation.
I do not clean at each round or shoot 500 and see how it goes. Any peice of machinery needs cleaning. I clean a bit more frequently at first. Say every 20 rounds. After 100 rounds, I clean as I load ammo. This would be at 50 or 100 rd intervals. Most of my range sessions are 50 round and I load the brass, so soak the bore in wipe out and run a patch through when I am done. If copper is getting bad, I clean. I can tell quite a bit from how a patch travels the bore and what it comes out looking like. I also use a bore scope and look for carbon, copper and damage. I always use a bore guide and never put junk back into my barrel. (ie bore snake). Seldom brush, but I will with tough copper or carbon.
Rifles are made to shoot and barrels wear out, but I see no need worry about it. New barrels do copper faster and clean slower than ones that have a few hundred rounds through them. (cut rifled ones do anyway). Button rilfed barrels are not like that and shoot their best when near new. IMO. I do not know why I do not shoot more Hart barrels, as the ones I have shot have been great.
I do not baby them, nor neglect them.
Those that take pride in neglecting their rifles and shoot 500, 1000 thousand rounds or more prior to cleaning often do not maintain their autos, homes or personal hygine, IMO.
Those that baby and clean every 5 or 10 shots are wasting time and possibly ruining their bore if not done properly.
JMO
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Lowlight posted while I was typing. I can say in reqards to his post that I would not let a barrel go to 1 moa prior to replacing. When mine hit .75 MOA I sell the rifle or change barrels. And some of them get changed as they never shoot .75 MOA regularly. I am unhappy with a rifle that will not shoot below .5 moa for 5 shots at 800 yards. JMO
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Let me guess, an F Class rifle...

I have changed out barrels I felt wouldn't shoot .5 consistently to start, I just did, it was too inconsistent and I dumped it with less than 2000 down it.

You're priorities and mine are clearly two different things and if I am putting 1000 rounds down a barrel in a month and I only clear the barrel twice in that period, doesn't mean I am neglecting it, it means I am shooting it. I will also use a bore snake every 200 rounds or so, as well we do clean the chamber area.

Go watch my videos, even the last one I posted with a .3 MOA group, that rifle hasn't been cleaned barrel wise since I picked it up a month ago and it has been shot every week. It's .3MOA without cleaning and well past 250 rounds down it.

So, I would suspect your experience and mine is slightly different... I am putting in excess of 12,000 rounds downrange a year on my own, that doesn't include other rifles that aren't mine. In total I am probably closer to 20,000 combined a year.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I am just a recreational shooter. I have a 800 yard range in my yard and shoot to 1000 on the ranch. I shoot about 10,000 rds per year, on average. No compitition. I would love to but have a hard time getting away. I can and do shoot 4-6 days per week and varmint hunt on the ranches, as well as removing excess deer on the ag fields at long range. I just really enjoy shooting for accuracy, and loading the ammo to do it. Nothing practical about it at all. Just fun for me. I have been shooting centerfire since I was about 5 years old and that is 45 years ago now. Prior to SS barrels I had difficulty with copper coating the bore and rust forming under in and ruining the barrel. My cleaning likely stems from that. With what I am doing, going out to the yard and running through 50-100 rds, it is just not a problem to put the rifle in the vice and put in some Wipe Out. I let it set while I load the 50 or 100 rds and sometimes for a day or two. Run a few tight patches through, clean the chamber and lug recess and check torque on the bolts. Soak the suppressors occasionaly and dry out. Works for me. I am sure what you are doing is working for you as well. I galled a lug once on a nice shooting rifle so am a bit cautious I guess.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Well, turns out I do have a sort of a bearing movement on the handle of my No. 9 cleaning rod.
grin.gif


Learn something new every day.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Absolutely not.
As you know POI changes with postion, conditions and WIND. I like to hold .5moa vertical and hold wind effects to a minium. I would not say that I hold ALL of my shots on the 800 yard berm. I have misdialed and shot over and under both. If I were to go out tonight and dial in to hit a 2" dot with one of my best rifles, shooting prone with sand bags and a sling, I would likely find some poi shift next week when it cools off etc. I am sure you know this as well. I do work hard to get what I call a no wind zero. Living next to my range, I can, with paitence find a time at dawn or dusk that there is nearly no wind. ( When a puff of dust from a bullet strike on the berm just hangs and the Kestral shows 0 velocity. I will set up for 800 dead center and will be a bit left at closer ranges. Not much, but some.
So if I get a 4" or even a 2.5" group of 5 shots the next day or week that is centered 3" right of center I still, for my purposes consider it a .5moa group. I am in doubt that it is possiable to shoot a 4" dot 100% of the time at 800 yards. It is not the 4" group that is so hard as knowing the center due to wind, humidity etc. I am sure you know this as well.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

My POI doesnt; change with position, there is no reason it should.

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Humidity is a non issue as well, move any program from 10% to 100% at 1000 yards and you'll see it's a non issue.

As, barrel heat,

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So I see a host of inaccuracies your statements from the start, that are carried over back in the day.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Something moves POI around a small amount besides wind. Might be my poor shooting. I do acheive smaller groups than most appear to. I can shoot 5 shot groups of 4" at 800 much more often than I can keep 5 shots in a 4" circle at 800. I am sure you can as well. I am out for today. Have a nice evening.
RTH
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can shoot 5 shot groups of 4" at 800 much more often than I can keep 5 shots in a 4" circle at 800.</div></div>

All things relevant the former is a miss and the latter is a hit. We can shoot groups all day long within the specs of the rifle and ammo. You should be getting a consistent 5 shot group in 8" circle with all the real estate you have readily available for practice. That's good enough.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Culpeper,
I do think I can shoot in an 8" circle at 800 as long as I choose to. IF the wind holds relatively steady. On some days it would be easy, on some days it would be impossable. Mirage is also tough at times. Today for example, it is to be 101 degrees with high humidity. That would be tough shooting at 800 for me. I try not to make statements that I cannot prove and I think if I were to shoot 1500 shots in a day one or more of them might miss the 8" circle. (1500 shots is what I would expect to shoot "all day long") This could be due to a bee sting, sweat in the eye, a cramp in the neck, burning my hand on the barrel etc.

I do not subscribe to the "good enough" school. I shoot for enjoyment and have never shot "good enough" I have shot sub 2" 5 shot groups at 800 but that did not keep me from further expirementing and working on equiptment and shooting form. I am not a sniper and shoot 100 rounds at targets for everyone shoot at a coyote or crow. It is just fun for me, not a job. I load my ammo, clean and maintain my equiptment, and have fun. I wish I could justify the time to go to some schools and tactical shoots, or even the national matches. Just not in the cards though.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Frank,
Odd you would mention "inaccuracies" in my statements. I see the same in yours. I seem to remember your saying that suppressors improve accuracy. ( I may be wrong about your saying this but I seem to remember it) I use them quite a bit and that has not been my expirence. I do see many or most shoot better with them, but this is IMO due to improved shootability. I have never seen a truly accurate rifle that was threaded and suppressed that got better. Most remain about as good, but a suppressor adds some variables such as mirage, change in internal air temps, possiable slight movement of can, increased weight on a warming barrel etc. And I know that if you were to shoot a 100 shot group with and without a suppressor in the course of 1 hour for each one, the non suppressed group would be smaller. Using an accurate rifle.

To say that postion does not affect POI in no way does that represent my expirence. For example. Have you seen a shooter with poor postion that does not get behind the rifle and watch it kick out to the right as he shoots? POI will be to right. Get him behind the rifle and watch those groups center up. The more I tighten my sling and hold on the rifle the lower it shoots. If I shoot off sand bags with a "light" hold, poi will be higher. I seldom use a bipod, but have seen that the surface they sit on will affect POI if not pre loaded properly. I know little about them though. I know that check weld and head positon can affect poi. Mostly in a lateral direction. I have seen loose head postion move and open groups. More so if scope has no parallex adj or it is not set perfectly.
I do not have the computers for shooting and programs to isolate variables as you apparently do, but in actual shooting humidity can effect poi as the mirage is worse in high humidity, IMO. I have no way of isolating this from the temp variations that comes along with the changes in humidity.
I do not wish to offend anyone, but these are my acutal expirences.
I do enjoy the site and hope you do not kick me off for expressing my opinions. I am open minded and like to learn so I pick up a great deal on here.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Back to cleaning... tell me then, how can cleaning a bore with a nylon coated rod (Dewey Rod), plastic, jag, and soft cotton or synthetic patches, that are soaked with nitro solvent or copper remover harm or wear out a barrel?

Yes, even nylon brushes are abrasive, more so than brass, and going back to the day's when it was common to have steel rods, use ammonia, etc. that cleaning could do more harm than good.

From my experience, if I break-in the barrel by cleaning and removing copper fouling after every shot for the first ten rounds fired, I have a bore that is less prone to copper fouling down the road. And I don't waste ammo because I'm also sighting the rifle in, adjusting the scope, looking for patterns, etc., all at the same time.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Alpine,
IF you do as you say, little damage can or will be done. IF you have imbedded junk in the coating of your rod, and have poor angulation on the rod, you could get bore wear.
It is a very personal thing, this cleaning. I would consider cleaning every shot at any time in a bores life a joke. In my opinion, just unnessassary. I have seen many bores that do not copper that were not "broken in" like this. At the same time, I find shooting 500 or 1000 shots between cleaning about as appealing as not brushing my teeth for 3 months or not washing my hands after using the bathroom. It could just be an old habit, but I see no harm in cleaning every 50 or 100 rds. What is all comes down to is that you are buying your barrels and should do as you wish with them. As we will all do with ours.
I do think some of the guys that do not clean are doing it as a sort of Macho thing. Like some guys abuse their trucks, just to show how little they care. Some are just lazy, and some have enough expirence to prove to them that they do not need to do it. Some have a lower requirement of how a barrel should shoot. Or how long it should shoot to that degree.
Do you have a bore scope? If so you should be able to tell if your bore has copper or not. I will also admit that most bores shoot a bit better fouled a bit. IMO.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I would have to agree with Lowlight about how heat barely if at all effects POI. I definitely do not know as much as you other guys when it comes to the hands on experience, however I do know in theory a 24" SS barrel would only elongate .0408 inches with a temp range from 32 to 212 degrees F. And a varmint contour barrel would only change about .00098 inches in diameter which is negligible on all accounts. Considering modern machining is barely close to those tolerances, I'd say it's safe to say that both Lowlights video and the calculations prove a change in barrel temp will not change POI.

EDIT: ADDITION: I'd be more worried about thermal expansion of the aluminum bedding block which has a coefficient of around 22E-6 m/mK, while stainless steels is around 11E-6. However, Neither are anywhere near enough to change POI considerably. Rather I'd focus on wind and distortion of optics with mirage or incorrect parallax. Optics is a whole other realm of physics that is much more sensitive to temperature and air conditions.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I seem to remember your saying that suppressors improve accuracy. ( I may be wrong about your saying this but I seem to remember it) I use them quite a bit and that has not been my expirence.</div></div>

Not only does the experience of many demonstrate the silencers can provide a slight accuracy increase, the science behind it is demonstrable. The purpose of a suppressor is to slow and cool the gasses behind the projectile. This slowing prevents the gasses from rushing past the projectile as it leaves the muzzle.

If you want visual feedback, take a look at the muzzle of your can at the end of the firing day. Compare that to the muzzle of a bare barrel at the end of the day. Which has more powder fouling.

Just because YOUR experience along with your other inaccurate assertions does not hold it true, does not indeed make it false.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To say that postion does not affect POI in no way does that represent my expirence. For example. Have you seen a shooter with poor postion that does not get behind the rifle and watch it kick out to the right as he shoots? POI will be to right. Get him behind the rifle and watch those groups center up.</div></div>

If the shooter uses PROPER positions and correct eye relief then there is no appreciable POI shift.

99% of the "percieved" POI shift is from parallax. You CAN have a repeatable shift from incorrect eye position and parallax adjustment. I have seen it and I have had to teach shooters how to correct it.

The vast majority of us who use correct positions and have some time behind the rifle can shoot prone supported, prone slung, sitting, kneeling and standing with the exact same zero.

I understand that you are speaking from "experience" but it is very possible for someone without any formal training to look at something and extract an incorrect analysis. If you don't believe me the field of science is replete with examples. This is why we try to explain to shooters that they need to seek professional instruction for a grounding in the principals of marksmanship.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I were to go out tonight and dial in to hit a 2" dot with one of my best rifles, shooting prone with sand bags and a sling, I would likely find some poi shift next week when it cools off etc. I am sure you know this as well.
</div></div>

Then you have a problem.

I will relay an example that was witnessed by several members on here. Last year I flew to Portland, Oregon to shoot a competition. I confirmed the zero on my duty rifle the week before I left. I packed it in a Pelican case for the flight. When I arrived in Portland my case had MANY new gouges and scrapes. The day before the competition (this is a WEEK after my zero confirmation at home 2000+ miles away) we went out to the range to fire another zero confirmation. I was a little worried that one of the "hammer throws" I witnessed my case go through might have shifted my zero.

I loaded up and fired ONE cold bore shot. It was dead center on a 1" target at 100 yards. Now granted the elevation of my home range and the competition was 400' ASL. The temp was about the same and the ammo was exactly the same.

The point is, that when you put a rifle down nothing magic happens to change the zero. If the zero has shifted, then it's you or a problem with the rifle system. On a wood stocked rifle it's possible for the wood to swell and change the stress on the action and barrel. On a non-free floated barrel this can even happen with a synthetic stock. You may have a scope that isn't consistent, OR the more likely situation is that you just are not as consistent as you think you are.

Frank had a great quote awhile back that I have seen to be almost universally true. As men, we think we can fuck, drive and shoot better than anyone else.

The truth can sometimes hurt. If you are as accurate as you have boasted about you would make time to get to at least one or two competitions a year. Hell, I am not in the top 10% of shooters and I make sure I get to at least two competitions a year. That is on a cop's salary.

Take my comments for what they are worth. I do this for fun, but I also do this as a job. I have for quite some time and I still get proven wrong and screw up from time to time.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,
Odd you would mention "inaccuracies" in my statements. I see the same in yours. I seem to remember your saying that suppressors improve accuracy. ( I may be wrong about your saying this but I seem to remember it) I use them quite a bit and that has not been my expirence. I do see many or most shoot better with them, but this is IMO due to improved shootability. I have never seen a truly accurate rifle that was threaded and suppressed that got better. Most remain about as good, but a suppressor adds some variables such as mirage, change in internal air temps, possiable slight movement of can, increased weight on a warming barrel etc. And I know that if you were to shoot a 100 shot group with and without a suppressor in the course of 1 hour for each one, the non suppressed group would be smaller. Using an accurate rifle.

To say that postion does not affect POI in no way does that represent my expirence. For example. Have you seen a shooter with poor postion that does not get behind the rifle and watch it kick out to the right as he shoots? POI will be to right. Get him behind the rifle and watch those groups center up. The more I tighten my sling and hold on the rifle the lower it shoots. If I shoot off sand bags with a "light" hold, poi will be higher. I seldom use a bipod, but have seen that the surface they sit on will affect POI if not pre loaded properly. I know little about them though. I know that check weld and head positon can affect poi. Mostly in a lateral direction. I have seen loose head postion move and open groups. More so if scope has no parallex adj or it is not set perfectly.
I do not have the computers for shooting and programs to isolate variables as you apparently do, but in actual shooting humidity can effect poi as the mirage is worse in high humidity, IMO. I have no way of isolating this from the temp variations that comes along with the changes in humidity.
I do not wish to offend anyone, but these are my acutal expirences.
I do enjoy the site and hope you do not kick me off for expressing my opinions. I am open minded and like to learn so I pick up a great deal on here. </div></div>

Please,

LW answered your questions... but

Doing something gives you experience, doing something incorrectly also gives you experience... with no point of reference of how it can be done correctly, how can your experience be that of something done right.

POI shift with position changes are caused but several things including in proper cheek weld, poor recoil management as well with things like Iron Sights, it was easy to see these shifts. A scope, with the parallax properly adjusted and the shooter have a complete sight picture with edge to edge clarity will have no impact shift providing he is managing the recoil.

if you are impact is shifting you are doing something wrong.

Humidity effects on the bullet inside 1000 yards, or specifically at 800 yards are so small as to not effect the dope of the shot. You're inability to adjust correctly for heavy mirage is not the rifle's fault. Scope magnification too high, shooting the image that is carried on the water vapor, all can lead to inaccuracies and are the responsibility of the shooter, not an effect of the rifle or ballistics.

As far as suppressors... bad ones are out there, but generally speaking people see an increase in accuracy with them. if yours doesn't I recommend doing your homework better.

There is a difference between using and abusing... for some it maybe a fine line, and for others, just simple neglect, but the true be told. I have seen no benefit to anally cleaning my bores. Doesn't mean they are not wiped down, chambers cleaned, etc, but the bores do not require harsh chemicals, bronze brushes or anything like what people call cleaning. A bore snake most of the time knocks the carbon out, and much of the copper people seen needs to be there.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

I hit this thread late...but did anyone notice in that 'clean gun guy video' that after he spends 3 minutes cleaning his rifle and wiping his face, he finally sits down and chambers a round, looks through his scope....takes his face off the rifle and then pulls the trigger??

As far as the cleaning rod thing...for rifles that give me good cleaning rod access to the chamber, only run brushes and patches from breech to muzzle. In rifles that I can not clean in that manner, rod is inserted by muzzle with a crown protector, brushes and patches are attached from ejection port and pulled breech to muzzle. Not saying there is a right or wrong way but this is how I've been cleaning em for as long as I can remember.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

Frank,
I do not think we are that far apart on most of what we say. I very seldom use harsh chemicals, do not remember the last time, and very seldom a brush either. I spray in a little WipeOut and soak, and run a tight patch or three thourgh a hour later, every hundred rounds or so. Mostly I get some black stuff I consider powder residue or carbon. Very little copper. Some of my barrels have never seen a brush. I also agree that some copper is good, more so on a worn or rough bore.
LW, when I speak of sighting in on a 2" dot, I am doing it at 800 or 1000 yards. I do not expect to see any change in POI at 100. I am not a trained/skilled shooter in your class. With my inconsistant position, I do see some shift in POI at 800/1000 on each range trip. I figure it is the wind changes in position or atmospheric cond. etc. These changes are not usually enough to notice if my rifles were only shooting MOA. When a rifle shoots a 3" group at 800 and does it another day but 5" away the entire thing could be less than MOA. The wind is the only thing that causes what I would call "big shifts" but we all know that. So my poor postion and poi shifts are still within the group of many. I also shoot my strings fairly quickly and I am sure they would open up if I were on an official range with targets being pulled etc.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frank,
I do not think we are that far apart on most of what we say. I very seldom use harsh chemicals, do not remember the last time, and very seldom a brush either. I spray in a little WipeOut and soak, and run a tight patch or three thourgh a hour later, every hundred rounds or so. Mostly I get some black stuff I consider powder residue or carbon. Very little copper. Some of my barrels have never seen a brush. I also agree that some copper is good, more so on a worn or rough bore.
LW, when I speak of sighting in on a 2" dot, I am doing it at 800 or 1000 yards. I do not expect to see any change in POI at 100. I am not a trained/skilled shooter in your class. With my inconsistant position, I do see some shift in POI at 800/1000 on each range trip. I figure it is the wind changes in position or atmospheric cond. etc. These changes are not usually enough to notice if my rifles were only shooting MOA. When a rifle shoots a 3" group at 800 and does it another day but 5" away the entire thing could be less than MOA. The wind is the only thing that causes what I would call "big shifts" but we all know that. So my poor postion and poi shifts are still within the group of many. I also shoot my strings fairly quickly and I am sure they would open up if I were on an official range with targets being pulled etc. </div></div>

The POI shift you're seeing is a result of change in environmental conditions, not because of equipment. Of course there's going to be a shift. What are you trying to say exactly?
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

It's pretty common actually, people do not understand what all effects their shots and to confuse one effect for another.

At 800+ yards environmental conditions will change how the rifle impacts, so will things like poor recoil management, compromised sight picture, parallax, to confuse it with the idea the rifle need to be cleaned is not unheard of, especially with out a frame of reference.

Not only that, unfortunately not all rifle systems are created equal and something that won't show up at 100 will be evident at 800. Not to mention things that do that are though to be common. Barrel heat is one, where the rifle starts to wander as it gets hot. For some, again with the experience of testing other systems, this may seem normal, when in fact it points to problem. If your rifle gets hot and wanders, that is not normal and should be looked at as a problem with your equipment.

All thinking is completely understandable, but again, doesn't mean it is right
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rth1800</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LW, when I speak of sighting in on a 2" dot, I am doing it at 800 or 1000 yards. I do not expect to see any change in POI at 100. I am not a trained/skilled shooter in your class. With my inconsistant position, I do see some shift in POI at 800/1000 on each range trip. I figure it is the wind changes in position or atmospheric cond. etc. These changes are not usually enough to notice if my rifles were only shooting MOA. When a rifle shoots a 3" group at 800 and does it another day but 5" away the entire thing could be less than MOA. The wind is the only thing that causes what I would call "big shifts" but we all know that. So my poor postion and poi shifts are still within the group of many. I also shoot my strings fairly quickly and I am sure they would open up if I were on an official range with targets being pulled etc. </div></div>

Do you realize that with a 175 smk at 2600fps at 800 yards a 1mph wind will account for a 6" horizontal shift.

THIS is why if you want to check for POI shift, you do so at short range. This removes the wind from the equation.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

LW,
I get about zero POI shift at 100 or even 300 that is not directly attributed to wind. I began addressing this when Lowlight ask if I could keep "all my shots in a 4" circle at 800 yards". I listed the reasons I could not, even though I have had some rifles that could shoot fairly consistant 4" groups at 800 with calm or steady winds. I am sure he knew that I could not, but I answered the question as he asked it. I like to shoot the smallest groups I can, as close to the POA as I can. I also realize there are also some vertical components to wind, not just horizontal.
 
Re: Barrel Break in Procedure- Gale McMillan

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This could be due to a bee sting, sweat in the eye, a cramp in the neck, burning my hand on the barrel etc. </div></div>

Limit yourself to the fundamentals of shooting, which you are well aware of, and stay away from contingencies. Your shooting is recreational. If you get something in your eye are you really going to continue to drive the car? If people would just stick to the fundamentals of shooting and shooting safety they would find shooting much easier and more enjoyable with less to worry about.