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Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

#2
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I am not too proud to admit that I had my barrel fluted because I like the way it looks.

Primarily it is to reduce weight. From what I have read, a fluted barrel of the same profile will not be as stiff as an unfluted barrel, BUT a fluted barrel WILL be more stiff than an unfluted barrel of the same weight.
 
#3
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

My understanding is accuracy has direct relationship to stiffness. There are several factors to this.

If two barrels are the same length of lets just say 20". One is a thin sporter contour and the other is a thick bull contour the bull SHOULD be more accurate if all other things are perfectly identical because the bull is stiffer and the end of the barrel slumps microscopically less.

Now then, if two barrels are the same bull contour and one is 20" and the other is 30" the 20" SHOULD be more accurate again because the shorter is stiffer. The longer barrel slumps microscopically less. You do give up FPS with a shorter barrel, but that is not the point here.

The easiest way to visualize this would be to hold out two pieces of 10' PVC pipe with one being 1/2" and the other being 3/4". Or for length two pieces of 3/4" PVC with one being 10' and the other 15'. Its easy to see the difference in sag in this example.

To finish, barrel fluting allows you to have a thicker profile in order to be more accurate with out having all that weight.

Some say that more surface area from barrel fluting allows better cooling as well. I have no opinion of this.
 
#4
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I got over fluting a long time ago. Just another way to spend your money.

IMHO it doesn't reduce weight enough to justify the $$. I suppose it cools faster but how much... really. As far as stiffer when fluted... I don't believe that either.

You'll get differing opinions. People who like the look will justify the extra expense. Mine is to spend that $$ elsewhere.
 
#6
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

A fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel of the same weight, so may be of some aid with very heavy barrels or in "making weight" for a competition. Some barrel manufacturers like Shilen won't flute a barrel, as they claim it can cause stresses and mess with the bore uniformity if not done right.

Check out this article for a good discussion:

http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html#24650

John
 
#7
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

i dont have much knolwedge on the subject but just from a common sense look at the differences id put my paycheck on a fluted barrel being less stiff then a non-fluted barrel of the same contour. less material means less strength.

but then taking the other side.... less weight means less sag aswell... but i think the fact that any weight removed also removes the strength that material gave on a weight to structure ratio scale the material removed for weight to add ridgidity will be worse.

bassically saying that the material supports itself and then some.

and on the heat dissipation theory... having more material for the heat to transfer to would dissipate more heat then having a tiny amount more surface area and less material.
 
#8
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel of the same weight...</div></div>

i can see this being true but that would require a larger contour barrel to begin with in order to have the fluted barrel weigh the same as the non-fluted barrel. so if the question is will my barrel be stiffer if i have it fluted the answer is no.
 
#9
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

fluting a barrel in a nut shell is to help with the ballance of a rifle because the larger target style barrel is obviously heavy and puts most of the weight at the from of the rifle, so when your carrying it or shooting off hand it is MUCH more balanced, another fairly large reason for fluting your barrel is to help cut down on glare coming off your barrel whether it be flat black or SS that mirage and glare with interfere with sight picture.
now if you've got the money and the time to wait you may want to look into getting your next barrel spiral fluted by E.R Shaw because they own the rights to the process, now this no only saves on weight and drastically cuts down on glare it also looks Friggen AWESOME!! i know my next project is getting one.

hope this helps,
 
#10
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I have always wondered about this. I have had a couple people tell me that I should flute the barrel on my FN SPR because it will "stiffin" it. I called crap, because I don't see how removing metal from an existing barrel would make it stronger.

I imagine it's like an I beam. The same amount of metal distributed in a well engineered way will be much stronger than the same ammount of metal in a straight stick.
 
#11
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel of the same weight, so may be of some aid with very heavy barrels or in "making weight" for a competition. Some barrel manufacturers like Shilen won't flute a barrel, as they claim it can cause stresses and mess with the bore uniformity if not done right.

Check out this article for a good discussion:

http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html#24650

John </div></div>


I know this discussion. As far as cooling is concerned , the fluted barrel also overheats faster, so...
I am looking for a empirically reliable and scientificly rigorous paper on fluting.
 
#12
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

The guys I shoot BR with also don't like flutes because of the added heat causing mirage off the barrel. Your exposing more surface material, therefore more area for heat. I don't have a fluted barrel and really don't give a shit either way. If for some reason I came across one that was a good deal, I might buy it. But, I wouldn't go out of my way to have one fluted unless it was specifically to make weight.
 
#13
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ancient Mariner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know this discussion. As far as cooling is concerned , the fluted barrel also overheats faster, so...
I am looking for a empirically reliable and scientificly rigorous paper on fluting.</div></div>

The stiffness portion of the problem is trivial. Similar problems and techniques are learned in sophomore-level engineering courses. Without actually defining two barrel contours to compare you can't do the math, but in general the following is true. Fluting a barrel makes it less stiff than it was originally. Comparing a non-fluted barrel with a fluted one of the same weight, length, bore, and similar contour (which will have a larger outer diameter), the fluted one will be stiffer.

The heat transfer portion of the problem is not trivial because of the difficulty in accurately calculating convective heat transfer (transfer of heat from an object to a fluid) which is affected by a tremendous number of variables. Analysis software exists which can provide approximate answers but the software in question is extremely expensive (the packages which do it well cost tens of thousands of dollars per license). However, qualitative statements based on reasonable assumptions (primarily dealing with uniformity of temperature within the barrel and with modeling convective heat transfer) can be made along the lines of what is stated in the 6mmbr article. I.E., given similar atmospheric conditions and surface finishes, fluting a barrel will cause it to both heat up more quickly and cool more quickly. A reasonable estimate for the order of magnitude of the change is that the fluted barrel will heat up faster by a ratio of (old mass/new mass) and cool faster by a ratio of (new surface area/old surface area). The two equal-mass barrels discussed in the previous section of my post will heat up approximately the same amount due to firing and the fluted one will cool faster by approximately a ratio of (new surface area/old surface area). Whether these effects are significant or not depends on the actual rate of heating and cooling (which can be estimated for a given set of conditions or experimentally determined) and the impact of temperature on accuracy (which can be experimentally determined for a given rifle).
 
#14
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ancient Mariner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I know this discussion. As far as cooling is concerned , the fluted barrel also overheats faster, so...
I am looking for a empirically reliable and scientificly rigorous paper on fluting.</div></div>

The stiffness portion of the problem is trivial. Similar problems and techniques are learned in sophomore-level engineering courses. Without actually defining two barrel contours to compare you can't do the math, but in general the following is true. Fluting a barrel makes it less stiff than it was originally. Comparing a non-fluted barrel with a fluted one of the same weight, length, bore, and similar contour (which will have a larger outer diameter), the fluted one will be stiffer.

The heat transfer portion of the problem is not trivial because of the difficulty in accurately calculating convective heat transfer (transfer of heat from an object to a fluid) which is affected by a tremendous number of variables. Analysis software exists which can provide approximate answers but the software in question is extremely expensive (the packages which do it well cost tens of thousands of dollars per license). However, qualitative statements based on reasonable assumptions (primarily dealing with uniformity of temperature within the barrel and with modeling convective heat transfer) can be made along the lines of what is stated in the 6mmbr article. I.E., given similar atmospheric conditions and surface finishes, fluting a barrel will cause it to both heat up more quickly and cool more quickly. A reasonable estimate for the order of magnitude of the change is that the fluted barrel will heat up faster by a ratio of (old mass/new mass) and cool faster by a ratio of (new surface area/old surface area). The two equal-mass barrels discussed in the previous section of my post will heat up approximately the same amount due to firing and the fluted one will cool faster by approximately a ratio of (new surface area/old surface area). Whether these effects are significant or not depends on the actual rate of heating and cooling (which can be estimated for a given set of conditions or experimentally determined) and the impact of temperature on accuracy (which can be experimentally determined for a given rifle).</div></div>

I hate it when I try to explain something and my example is holding out PVC pipes, then a guy shows up and talks about "accurately calculating convective heat transfer". Makes me feel like the hick that I am.

Good post BTW.
 
#15
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Fluting-c1246-wp3392.htm

straight off of Krieger's website, read 2nd paragraph.

To me a barrel that cools down faster is also going to heat up faster. So for a bench shooter who is going to shoot many rounds in a long string it doesn't make sense to have done. For a man who is only going to fire the weapon every few minutes (allowing it to cool) is going to benefit from it. The ammount of benefit? probably negligable. Its not 100% necessairy to have it done and most people wont see any benefit from it at all besides enhancing the rifles asthetics and that is in the eye of the beholder. Some people might prefer the look of an unfluted barrel more so thats really just preferance.

Fluting is a very good option because of the weight loss. If i want larger diameter barrel on my rifle without sacrificing weight i can usually go up a contour and keep the same weight as before. Thicker barrel equals more inherent accuracy but this too is limited to how long the barrel is. Obviously if you only get 4 inches of fluting it will be much less of a weight drop than flutes of 14 inches long.

Again, it really depends on the aplication of the rifle as does everything else.
 
#16
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Fluting-c1246-wp3392.htm

straight off of Krieger's website, read 2nd paragraph.

To me a barrel that cools down faster is also going to heat up faster. So for a bench shooter who is going to shoot many rounds in a long string it doesn't make sense to have done. For a man who is only going to fire the weapon every few minutes (allowing it to cool) is going to benefit from it. The ammount of benefit? probably negligable. Its not 100% necessairy to have it done and most people wont see any benefit from it at all besides enhancing the rifles asthetics and that is in the eye of the beholder. Some people might prefer the look of an unfluted barrel more so thats really just preferance.

Fluting is a very good option because of the weight loss. If i want larger diameter barrel on my rifle without sacrificing weight i can usually go up a contour and keep the same weight as before. Thicker barrel equals more inherent accuracy but this too is limited to how long the barrel is. Obviously if you only get 4 inches of fluting it will be much less of a weight drop than flutes of 14 inches long.

Again, it really depends on the aplication of the rifle as does everything else. </div></div>

so basically fluting your barrel is working backwards in the accuracy department... it might cool faster but less mass means it heats faster too. yes if you bought a larger diameter fluted barrel then the one you have now then it will be a gain but if you bought the same diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.

seems pretty cut and dry if you ask me... some people like body kits on there hondas and they perhaps like fluted barrels too...
grin.gif
unless your trying to reduce weight for some purpose its purely asthetics and works against accuracy.
 
#17
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Keep in mind that it is probably a negligable loss of accuracy though. My friend had a barrel fluted and it shot better afterwards. Every case is going to be different. But yes, probably just an asthetic thing, which to me a good looking rile is a wonderful thing, but i'll take an ugly rifle that shoots excellent over a work of art that cant group for shit but then again, that is just me... YMMV
 
#18
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
To me a barrel that cools down faster is also going to heat up faster.</div></div>

While this makes intuitive sense it is not really the case because heating and cooling of rifle barrels happen by two different processes.

Heating occurs through transfer of heat from the hot gasses of the bore to the barrel (there is also heat generated by surface friction but I suspect this is negligible). If we look at a single shot with a barrel starting at a uniform initial temperature, the total energy transferred to the barrel is going to depend mostly on the hot gas temperature, length of exposure, and bore surface area. These are pretty much constant regardless of bore contour or whether or not the bore is fluted. This could be considered as an "impulse" case, i.e., a specific amount of energy added in a tiny amount of time.

If we assume that the temperature of the entire barrel is uniform everywhere in the barrel (which is not an unreasonable assumption for a variety of reasons), then the change in temperature of the barrel will be given by deltaT=deltaE/(C*m) where deltaE is the change in energy we defined in the previous paragraph, C is the heat capacity of the material (how much energy it takes to increase a unit mass of the material by one degree), and m is the total mass of the barrel. So the only part of barrel geometry which is affected by contour and fluting and has a large impact on heating characteristics is the mass of the barrel. Thus for two barrels of the same contour, one fluted and one not, the fluted one will heat up faster since it has less mass. For two barrels of the same length and weight, one fluted and one not, the two will heat up about the same amount per shot.

As far as cooling goes, if we assume a uniform temperature of the barrel Tb, and a uniform atmospheric temperature Ta, then the change in energy per time (heat flux) of the barrel is approximated by h*A*(Tb-Ta) where h is some convective heat transfer constant which is determined by experimentation and specific to the exact barrel configuration and surface properties in question and A is the exterior surface area of the barrel.

The convective heat transfer constant h will likely be a little smaller for a fluted barrel than a non-fluted one, but A will be much larger so h*A will be larger for a fluted barrel in either the equal contours case or the equal length and mass case.

This is not to say that the impact is huge and important or that there are not other drawbacks or that everyone should flute their barrels.
 
#19
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Primary reason to flute a barrel-
looks cool and the chicks dig it

Secondary reason to flute a barrel-
___________________

Want to balance a rifle by reducing the barrel wieght, cut an inch or two off. Rifle balance is for positional shooting- sitting, standing, or kneeling. You dont need a 28" barrel and if a 20" conventional barrel is too muzzle heavy for you perhaps you could use a set of shooting sticks.

Cooling-
ANY change in cooling rate is due to increase/decrease in surface area. Those who own a fluted barrel can tell you the increase in surface area is a nit in most flute jobs. Deep flutes would seem to destablize a uniform cooling rate across the lands and grooves inside the bore, which spiral through the so-called cool and warm slices down the barrel.

But what the heck, looking cool is as good a reason to flute as bolting on a cosine indicator.

Yes I have a fluted barrel, no I dont have a cosine indicator, nor bubble level for that matter.
 
#20
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.
</div></div>

I don't think that's true.
 
#21
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.
</div></div>

I don't think that's true.</div></div>

Removing material from a barrel will ALWAYS make it less stiff. If you take two identical barrels and flute one, the fluted one will ALWAYS be less stiff.
 
#22
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I want to see two identicle barrels (as much as possible at east) but with one fulted and one unfluted. Then have tose barrels placed under a hydraulic ram that calculates the force required to bend the metal "x" far downwards (or whatever experiment would recreate the same type of results) and this would ultimatly settle once and for all if flutes make a barrel more or less rigid. As i understand it would make it more rigid to have flutes but only to a degree, remove too much material and it would seem to me that the structure would certainly weaken. And the caliber needs to be considered as well. There is more mateial on a 223 barrel than there is on a 338 of the same contour.

Can anyone conduct an experiment that would prove if it is more/less rigid to have flutes in a barrel? I know it would be an expensive test requiring special equipment but if anyone can do it that would be so awsome.
 
#24
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.
</div></div>

I don't think that's true.</div></div>

Removing material from a barrel will ALWAYS make it less stiff. If you take two identical barrels and flute one, the fluted one will ALWAYS be less stiff. </div></div>

Bullshit.

Take a solid rod and drill a small hole through the middle. What you have left is a tube, which is stiffer than a solid rod, because there is now nearly twice as much surface area to resist bending.

The same concept applies to fluting--to a point.

In other words, you're wrong.
 
#25
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.
</div></div>

I don't think that's true.</div></div>

Removing material from a barrel will ALWAYS make it less stiff. If you take two identical barrels and flute one, the fluted one will ALWAYS be less stiff. </div></div>

Bullshit.

Take a solid rod and drill a small hole through the middle. What you have left is a tube, which is stiffer than a solid rod, because there is now nearly twice as much surface area to resist bending.

The same concept applies to fluting--to a point.

In other words, you're wrong. </div></div>

A hole through the center of a rod and cutting material off the outside of it are two completely different concepts. Yes, drilling out the center of a round rod will make it stronger, because it will create a bind. But, were talking about removing material from the outside. When you take material off the outside, it won't create a bind, just less material to hold it solid. It's the difference of where you remove the material that makes the difference.
 
#26
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.
</div></div>

I don't think that's true.</div></div>

Removing material from a barrel will ALWAYS make it less stiff. If you take two identical barrels and flute one, the fluted one will ALWAYS be less stiff. </div></div>

Bullshit.

Take a solid rod and drill a small hole through the middle. What you have left is a tube, which is stiffer than a solid rod, because there is now nearly twice as much surface area to resist bending.

The same concept applies to fluting--to a point.

In other words, you're wrong.</div></div>

I'm sorry, you clearly do not know what you are talking about. I would suggest you not argue engineering topics with an engineer if you don't know anything about engineering. "Resisting bending" has nothing to do with surface area at all and everything to do with cross sectional and the square of the distance of each infinitesimal bit of that cross-sectional area from the neutral axis on which there is no compression or tension. This is called the second moment of area.

Stiffness is directly proportional to the second moment of area for a cross-section of the structure and inversely proportional to some power of the length (depends on the load case). For a solid cylinder, the cross section is a circle and I=PI*R^4/4 where R is the outside diameter. For a cylinder with a hole bored down the center I=PI*(R^4-r^4)/4 where r is the inside diameter. This is clearly smaller than the case for a solid cylinder.

Also, drilling a hole down the center probably won't make the barrel any stronger, either, because failure for structures like this is primarily through buckling and removing material from the center will significantly decrease the critical buckling load.

The one exception to the "remove material to make it stiffer" thing that I said before is cutting the end off and making it shorter, but through this entire thread I have been talking about comparing barrels of the same length.

TerrorInTheShadows, there is absolutely no need to test this empirically as the mathematics of the behavior of simple structures under simple loads like this has been well understood for centuries (in fact, it was derived by Euler and Bernoulli in the mid 1700's).
 
#27
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Lets make it easy. Get 2 pencils, one round and 1 with multi flats both the same length and same diameter. Place the round one on top of your second and third finger and under your first and last finger. Thumbs do not count. Break it and record how hard it was. Now place the multi flat pencil and place it the same way in your fingers but make sure one edge is up and one is down. Now break it. Which one takes more effort?

Or take a 6" long by 1" wide piece of sheet metal, lay it flat and fold it in half. Take another same size piece and try to fold it in half from edge to edge.

This is what Maladat said in layman terms I think.
 
#28
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

You people are breaking barrels???


I thought I was hard on my shit... LoL


Well, I'm no engineer, but I once built things out of metal... I can say from experience that a length of DOM tubing was stronger than a solid bar of the same metal. I've seen this first hand, so don't bother telling me I'm wrong.
 
#29
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Well one things for sure, that Maladat don't do cattle and chickens for a livin!
grin.gif
But in all seriousness, when you start seeing the 100 and 200 yd benchrest boys shooting fluted barrels then you can say there is an accuracy advantage to fluted barrels. Until then it is asthetics and a gain in diam vs weight.
 
#31
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?


I wanna play!

I skimmed over most replys and here's my input.

Most you guys are forgetting "ounce for ounce" and could gain from thinking backwards;

A fluted barrel is stiffer than a non fluted barrel OF THE SAME WEIGHT. If you have a fluted barrel and an unfluted barrel that both weight the same- the non fluted barrel will be a much smaller/skinny profile! If you could look at two barrels of the indentical weight but one fluted and one non-fluted a 10 year old kid could look and tell you which one was "stronger" (more rigid.)

Your thinking about taking a barrel and cutting strips out of it. But think backwards for a minute.

Lets say you have TWO ultra light profile barrels that WEIGHT THE SAME. You then ADD ribs narrow but tall ribs to one , lengthwise. So now it look like small & wide paddle wheel on a boat of sorts. (work with me here, it's hard to draw a mental pic with words.) What you have done it increase the rigidity exponentially, while increasing weight only some what. And the ribbed barrel is far stiffer than the non ribbed barrel, but you did not increase the weight near as much as you increased the rigidity.

Now had you (work with me, no we'd never weld a barrel) welded up the outer surface of the barrel to a solid, diameter equal to the largest diameter of the ribs we added to the first barrel. We would have increased rigidity all the more but it would come with an EQUAL addition of increased weight.

You see in fluting we are stealing most of a bull barrels rigidity, but cheating the weight (increase) that expects to get to tag along.

Think of fluting as STARTING with a little skinny profile barrel, then adding ribs to it.
Now you have most of the rigidity of a heavy target barrel, and most of the weight savings of a easy to carry light sporter barrel blended together. This is what sells fluting. This is what fluting for.

Yes there are other attributes to fluting, but none so physically (to the barrel itself) as important as the weight to rigidity ratio.

Heat:

No -the metal- of a fluted barrel does not heat anymore quickly or slowly.

Chromoly barrel steel is chromoly barrel steel & Stainless barrel steel is stainless barrel steel- wether fluted or not - iT has the same amount of conductivity.

If I take a copper wire and loop it, bend it or flute a copper bar- does any of it change how fast/slow electricity will travel across it? or heat? Nope. conductivity is unchanged.

So what of the claims that a fluted barrel cools quicker? Surface area is increased therefore more air can get to the heat to take it away! This is often the technical answer and while it is correct, it is the minor event that is increasing heat loss.

Let's think about this. To say that a bull barrel heats up slower or faster or ______ than a fluted barrel is purely wrong. The barrels are made of the same conductive material- barrel steel!

It's just the heat introduced to the bore from those 5 rounds you fired have a longer road to travel though the wall of a bull barrel.

But in a fluted barrel at the base of the flutes- the wall is far thinner so the heat arrives quicker, which exposes it to the air sooner which switches on the "air-cooled" aspect sooner so to speak.
 
#32
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: krw</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well one things for sure, that Maladat don't do cattle and chickens for a livin!
grin.gif
But in all seriousness, when you start seeing the 100 and 200 yd benchrest boys shooting fluted barrels then you can say there is an accuracy advantage to fluted barrels. Until then it is asthetics and a gain in diam vs weight. </div></div>

Note to self, no debating engineering with Maladat...

Benchrest HOF member and noted gunsmith Speedy Gonzales has told me on more than one occasion, he earned his last few HOF points shooting a fluted barrel.

Basically, he said when done correctly flutes are "accuracy neutral". Caveat being when "done correctly" that they wont make an accurate barrel less accurate, and they certainly won't make a mediocre barrel shoot better.

Of course, Speedy has also told me that flutes are a part of his whole philosophy on competition shooting, that being "I might not shoot well, but I look good doing it"...
 
#33
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ancient Mariner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel of the same weight, so may be of some aid with very heavy barrels or in "making weight" for a competition. Some barrel manufacturers like Shilen won't flute a barrel, as they claim it can cause stresses and mess with the bore uniformity if not done right.

Check out this article for a good discussion:

http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html#24650

John </div></div>


I know this discussion. As far as cooling is concerned , the fluted barrel also overheats faster, so...
I am looking for a empirically reliable and scientificly rigorous paper on fluting. </div></div>

overheats faster? isnt it the opposite due to increased surface area for cooling?
 
#34
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

On this whole heating/cooling debate, I think it is time someone test this and find out once and for all.

As the folks at Mythbusters seem to like a good gun myth, maybe we should suggest this be one they test for us...
 
#35
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

In all this hubbub I think that we're all forgetting the most important aspects of fluting...

It's lighter.
It looks cool.


Both of those things really heat my balls so, rock on and flute it up!!!
 
#36
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Cosmetic only....looks kool
i prefer my rifles to look like crap but shoot bugholes
If it was a beauty contest i would lose everytime but since its all about hits on target...$$ better spent on powder n bullets.
Always makes me smile when these guys show up with nice looking rifles but can not hit a barn
 
#37
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ancient Mariner</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jhnmdahl</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A fluted barrel is stiffer than a non-fluted barrel of the same weight, so may be of some aid with very heavy barrels or in "making weight" for a competition. Some barrel manufacturers like Shilen won't flute a barrel, as they claim it can cause stresses and mess with the bore uniformity if not done right.

Check out this article for a good discussion:

http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelfaq.html#24650

John </div></div>


I know this discussion. As far as cooling is concerned , the fluted barrel also overheats faster, so...
I am looking for a empirically reliable and scientificly rigorous paper on fluting. </div></div>

overheats faster? isnt it the opposite due to increased surface area for cooling? </div></div>

OVER-heats faster refers to max thermal capacity when either style barrel is a max saturation, the bull barrel will be more stable merely because there are more molecules involved.
 
#38
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I have seen rifles with fluted barrels shoot tiny little groups.
with factory match ammo. I dont think it is so much for cooling or stiffness but weight reduction.

this rifle has a fluted barrel. picture one is 3 shot with gold medal match, and the other is surplus ammo.
SANY0365.jpg

SANY0283.jpg

SANY0284.jpg

 
#39
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Think of fluting as STARTING with a little skinny profile barrel, then adding ribs to it.
Now you have most of the rigidity of a heavy target barrel, and most of the weight savings of a easy to carry light sporter barrel blended together. This is what sells fluting. This is what fluting for.</div></div>

but thats not how flutiing is done...(and i know you know that but im just making a point) they start with a nice fat accurate bull barrel and say "would you like me to reduce its accuracy and flute it for looks/weight loss?" then you say "HELL NO!! i thought it made my barrel more ridgid"...

if fluting was done by welding fins on then yes everybody should do it.. it would be the new hot thing to do..but its not... its done by removing material not adding it. and removing material = bad.

in every case you had a more accurate barrel before you had it fluted. i realise maybe some guys want to go hunting or what ever the case and are willing to lose some stiffness in order to make the overall weight less but they have to comprimise accuracy in order to do that. no way around that.
 
#40
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I think it is pretty much to reduce the weight.

As far a barrel cooling and all the junk goes I have a hard time buying it. It very well might be true but think about this. A unfluted barrel will give you less heat mirage from your barrel that a fluted barrel. I have seen it over and over again. Guys with fluted barrels say everything is all blurry. Well that is probably because there is alot more surface for heat to come off you barrel.

So I guess it does give heat off your barrel quicker but I dont think besides weight and it looks super cool it does anything.
 
#41
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
they start with a nice fat accurate bull barrel and say "would you like me to reduce its accuracy and flute it for looks/weight loss?" then you say "HELL NO!! i thought it made my barrel more ridgid"...

in every case you had a more accurate barrel before you had it fluted. i realise maybe some guys want to go hunting or what ever the case and are willing to lose some stiffness in order to make the overall weight less but they have to comprimise accuracy in order to do that. no way around that. </div></div>

Actually your wrong. When the question of "to flute or not" arises with your barrel maker, you got NO barrel, yet, merely a soild bar of steel. A good barrel maker flutes the barrel-to-be first, before doing the bore. Fluting has nothing to do with accuracy at range.
Click to expand...
 
#42
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Theres plenty of slinging back and forth on this thread which is wasting everyones time. Someone needs to come up with imperical evidence that will support things one way or another. This is a long long debate that has gone between companies and shooters for a looooong time. For every one that says that its one way you can find one that says the opposite.
 
#44
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I love the people who follow the Gospel According to Benchrest....

So b/c benchresters don't flute their barrels, this means that a fluted barrel negatively affects accuracy?

Horse raddish......


Maybe, just MAYBE there are other factors at play of why they do or don't do something... Right off the top of my head, I would ask myself, "self, why don't Benchresters flute their barrels?" in which the first explanation I would probably come up with would be... Why would they? They sit their rifle in a sled and pull the trigger... Balance and weight not a concern to them. It's easier to claim that the accuracy Gods must surely know something we don't...

Before we go comparing or rig or habits to benchrest, ask yourself what you really plan to do with your rifle. If you in fact have a "tacticool rifle" and your trying to mimic anything benchrest other than some useful load information, than your chasing your tail.

Do you also plan on having a Multicam cordura pouch made to carry around your mechanical rest? Do you really plan on weighing and sorting brass? Weighing primers? Cleaning every 20 rounds? etc........ Prolly not, so why try to jump over to that side and grab one little tidbit of how they do something and drag it over here?

I have multiple fluted barrels, all of which (except one shitty Remington barrel) can produce stupid small groups... If you think that .05 tenth of a mil better accuracy that your overactive brain is telling you you'll get with a non-fluted barrel will win the race for you, rock on.
 
#45
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigWill214</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Theres plenty of slinging back and forth on this thread which is wasting everyones time. Someone needs to come up with imperical evidence that will support things one way or another. This is a long long debate that has gone between companies and shooters for a looooong time. For every one that says that its one way you can find one that says the opposite. </div></div>

No one's willing to do that b/c it's a waste of time and money... The fact that fluted barrels are out there shooting well is empirical enough.
 
#46
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

How much weight are you removing, really.

I had a Schneider barrel fluted on a custom build by a reputable smith. They make more money when you decide to have them cut cool lines in your barrel. The rifle would shoot occasional .5 groups, but .75 - 1.+ most of the time. I ended up having to send the rifle back and have him lapp out a tight spot, 8" from muzzle. The rifle shot much better after lapping, lotta .5's -.6's That experience made me feel that by fluting, one could add more variables in chasing repeatable accuracy. Fluting didn't look that cool anymore. We develop our opinions based on experiences. I have no doubt, that if done correctly, it will not effect your system negatively.

If you like the look and need to spend money, then do it.
Round barrels are beautiful!
 
#48
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> in every case you had a more accurate barrel before you had it fluted.</div></div>
How is that?? And, does your theory apply to actual fluted custom barrels that are fluted prior to rifling? Are you saying that non-fluted barrels are more accurate the fluted barrels or are you saying that fluting a barrel reduces it's accuracy potential?
If you are saying the latter, that non-fluted barrels are more accurate than fluted barrels, I would have to strongly disagree. Now, with that said, if one had a barrel taken off and fluted, I would anticipate accuracy changes due to new vibration characteristics that would be remedied with new load work up. If one was shooting factory stuff or poorly-tuned handloads, haveing the barrel fluted could greatly improve accuracy.
 
#49
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had my 338 LM fluted... I love it !! Laffin'

338_LM_fluted.jpg
</div></div>

Now would that be a class 3, or just a full barrel break?
 
#50
Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Keep in mind that it is probably a negligable loss of accuracy though. My friend had a barrel fluted and it shot better afterwards. Every case is going to be different. But yes, probably just an asthetic thing, which to me a good looking rile is a wonderful thing, but i'll take an ugly rifle that shoots excellent over a work of art that cant group for shit but then again, that is just me... YMMV </div></div>

My living doesn't depend on my using a rifle.

In that light I live by a simple philosophy: Life's too short to have an ugly gun.

Aesthetics are NEVER my primary consideration, but they do play a part.

I have rifles that have fluted barrels and some that don't. Weight has been my primary concern when choosing one, though I do think they look cool.
 
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