Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

[chooter]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

My goals for fluting a barrel were first to aid in cooling, second to try to move the balance point rearward as I prefer to shoot with a can(all steel) and lastly to look tacticool.

My barrel is 25 1/2 long with a one inch muzzle diameter. the flutes are 18" long and .150 deep with 10 flutes. Only goal 1 & 3 were achieved. Even with a MCM sniperfill A5 stock the rifle balances at the front sling swivel with the can and a Harris bipod attached.

 

[Turk]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">diameter as that fluted barrel in non-fluted it will be stiffer. in any given diameter a fluted barrel will be less ridgid then a non-fluted in the same diameter.
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I don't think that's true.</div></div>

Removing material from a barrel will ALWAYS make it less stiff. If you take two identical barrels and flute one, the fluted one will ALWAYS be less stiff. </div></div>

Bullshit.

Take a solid rod and drill a small hole through the middle. What you have left is a tube, which is stiffer than a solid rod, because there is now nearly twice as much surface area to resist bending.

The same concept applies to fluting--to a point.

In other words, you're wrong. </div></div>
BS. Cannot remove material and make stronger.

 

[bigwill214]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I've shot both with and without flutes. I go with what shoots.

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I still want a real life test.

You could tell me that 2+2=4 but untill you get your apples on the table and physically show me why and undeniably prove that your theory is right im going to be in disbeliefe. Im in school right now and i have to go through many classes where every day i learn new formulas and theories to tell me some piece of data and it is easy to accept them because they are proven in class.

I need proof that a fluted barrel (made in the correct process) is/isn't as rigid as an unfluted barrel of the same quality. Otherwise mathematic models and equations don't mean anything to me. And we can keep arguing about this to the ends of time.

 

[Jerkface11]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

If removing material doesn't make the barrel less stiff what's the limit to that? How deep can the flutes get before they cause weakness?

 

[kentactic]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: matchking</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kentactic</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> in every case you had a more accurate barrel before you had it fluted.</div></div>
How is that?? And, does your theory apply to actual fluted custom barrels that are fluted prior to rifling? Are you saying that non-fluted barrels are more accurate the fluted barrels or are you saying that fluting a barrel reduces it's accuracy potential?
If you are saying the latter, that non-fluted barrels are more accurate than fluted barrels, I would have to strongly disagree. Now, with that said, if one had a barrel taken off and fluted, I would anticipate accuracy changes due to new vibration characteristics that would be remedied with new load work up. If one was shooting factory stuff or poorly-tuned handloads, haveing the barrel fluted could greatly improve accuracy. </div></div>

anything COULD happen.. i COULD tie a brick to the end of my barrel and it COULD shoot better if i hit the lottery. but... generally speaking i think fluting a barrel reduces its accuracy. im not saying theres not a fluted barrel that will be more accurate then a non-fluted barrel but that generally speaking if you take a barrel and then have it fluted it will more then likely have lost accuracy potential... perhaps you never notice the change because its so minute or that the gun still shoots better then you so it dosent even matter but never the less id say removing material from metal makes mtal weaker...

1in of metal rod is stronger then 1in of metal rod with chunks removed.

if this werent true then i would be able to cut the peice of metal in half and it would levitate and some how be as strong if not stronger.

 

[kentactic]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jerkface11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If removing material doesn't make the barrel less stiff what's the limit to that? How deep can the flutes get before they cause weakness? </div></div>

thats how the theory fails... by that theory there would be no limit...

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Just awesome.....too many people here have too much time on their hands. Either that or it's -20 outside

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

Fluting a barrel after its been made and fired for a period of time is the wrong way to go about having a fluted barrel anyways. Its going to change the harmonics of the barrel leading to POI shifts but i do still belive if you adjust and adapt to these changes just like you would a brand new barrel you will still have an accurate rifle. Put a can on your rifle and its POI will shift, alot of people will say it is more accurate afterwards and alot of others will argue that it got less accurate. Every situation is different and ever suppressor has a different quality just as the quality of flutes will change as well.

 

[maladat]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TerrorInTheShadows</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still want a real life test.

You could tell me that 2+2=4 but untill you get your apples on the table and physically show me why and undeniably prove that your theory is right im going to be in disbeliefe. Im in school right now and i have to go through many classes where every day i learn new formulas and theories to tell me some piece of data and it is easy to accept them because they are proven in class.

I need proof that a fluted barrel (made in the correct process) is/isn't as rigid as an unfluted barrel of the same quality. Otherwise mathematic models and equations don't mean anything to me. And we can keep arguing about this to the ends of time. </div></div>

There's not really a lot to argue about. The derivations were done in the 1700s. Check out any engineering strength of materials textbook for more information. The tests have all been done ad nauseum. The formulas work and are used al the time by engineers.

If you refuse to accept the basic validity of Euler-Bernoulli beam theory (the stiffness analysis I have been using in this thread) and Euler buckling theory (the strength analysis I have been using in this thread) you may want to avoid tall buildings built prior to about 1980 as virtually all of them were designed using methods based directly on the two theories. They have been replaced not because they don't work but because new methods have been derived which require much more computing power but much less human input and work.

 

[virulosity]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

If stiffness is the most important factor in accuracy, why isn't everyone running high modulus carbon fiber barrels with steel liners?

Secondly, on the subject of moments of inertia, fluting only increases stiffness in the direction of the rib, so if you cut flutes aren't you making a lower frequency vibration mode in a certain axis? I am also confused about the fact that the projectile induces torsion on the barrel from the rifling, and fluting is an inefficient shape for transmitting torque, so there must be barrel whip that is concentric as well.

It seems like the ideal solution would be to have a thin profile barrel that has a high-modulus light-weight material supporting it radially in all directions. Again, another compromise is presented though, because the coefficients of thermal expansion will likely differ, causing thermal distortion of the barrel.

Shit, I guess I should just keep shooting a design that is 100 years old.

 

[maladat]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I never said stiffness was the most important factor, although I suspect it is important (after all, itvis pretty well accepted that heavier barrel profiles are generally more consistant than lighter ones) and it certainly can't hurt. I would guess bore surface, rifling,cross section, and internal stress uniformity to be most important. All that said I am not an expert specifically on barrels and accuracy. However, in these threads people always bring up stiffness and a lot of "well I think" BS gets said on the subject that is opposite what actually happens. I was attempting to correct those misapprehensions. The stiffness of structures like these is a well understood phenomenon and there is no "well I think" about it. There is one right answer.

Also carbon fiber has a similar elastic modulus (material stiffness) to steel so that just makes it harder to achieve barrel uniformity. Carbon fiber gets used for stuff because it is about as stiff as steel and is something like 20% the weight (kind of like the fluting argument).

 

[VJJPunisher]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

next thing ya know it'll be a out patient surgery, to have yer dong fluted, kinda along the lines of having big ole stupid spacer discs in ones ears, or having 3 lbs of metal punctured in ones face, jus sayin

 

[Sendero_Man]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sendero_man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I had my 338 LM fluted... I love it !! Laffin'

</div></div>

Now would that be a class 3, or just a full barrel break? </div></div>

new technology... full barrel

 

[azbic]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

So supposing someone desires to have their barrel (unfired) fluted, who would be recommended to perform this procedure. My thought is I would like to cut the barrel from 24" to 18" to 20" and flute. (trg-22)

 

[Ghogs Nightmare]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I havent had a custom barrel dont yet but do know my fluted factory rem barrels seem to be more accurate than my not fluted versions. With the exception of one. With that being said I agree with Jrose..I like the looks, when it comes time to have a barrel done i will have it fluted.
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As far as stiffness goes I just grind up a lil blue pill now an then and mix it into my "pet load" for that particular rifle. I heard it helps with stiffness.
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***NOTE to save harassment, I currently have no need for the pill and the above statement is for humor purposes only***

 

[Dylan in AZ]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

I just had to laugh at that Ghogs.

Azbic, i wouldn't do it if it was me in your position and the only reason i say that is because if the barrel is going to be cut down then so is the lenght of the fluting space and IMO a short barrel looks good, but with 4 inches (estimated) of flutes it looks bad.

 

[decider]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

"dong fluting" is already a procedure exclusive to back alleys and up-scale hotel rooms or brothels.... and there are several similarities to a surgical procedure - 1. both done by specialists, experts if you will, 2. both are a science and an art at the same time, and 3. and both are in fact about weight... either the weight of you load, or the weight of the service provider, both are important

 

[virulosity]

Re: Barrel fluting- is this all about weight?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: maladat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also carbon fiber has a similar elastic modulus (material stiffness) to steel so that just makes it harder to achieve barrel uniformity. Carbon fiber gets used for stuff because it is about as stiff as steel and is something like 20% the weight (kind of like the fluting argument). </div></div>

Actually that depends on the fiber. An M55J has more than double the modulus of steel (Around 80 Msi) and is 1/6 the density. So the stiffness to weight ratio is about 12 times. That seems pretty worth while to me. I am not sure what you mean about barrel uniformity?