I do not understand this current trend of threaded barrels! It seems that most of the bolt action 22s I'm seeing or hear of being ordered have or will have threaded barrels. In over 50 yrs of shooting I have never owned a threaded barrel 22lr. Never had a need to suppress a 22. I suspect it's mainly due to to the current tactical fad. Tactical this tactical that. I'm currently looking for tactical underwear. I'm sure someone makes it. This is for you new shooters thinking about buying a new gun or having one built. Forget the barrel threads. I does nothing for accuracy. Just the opposite. If you remove metal from the muzzle end of a barrel it opens up the bore. That's the last thing you want if you're trying to squeeze every bit of accuracy from a barrel! Case in point. Anschutz actually leaves extra metal on the muzzle end of their match grade barrels. Custom remfire smiths taper lap barrels for improved accuracy. How many pure benchrest 22s have you seen with threaded barrels? If you need a suppressor in order to shoot a 22 in the area you live by all means thread. If not forget that tactical BS.
- Thread starter littlesister
- Start date
Shooting rifles without a supressor is for fuds
Suppressors aren't the only reason to have threaded barrels, many people put tuners on them as well.....!
Honestly after shooting suppressed, I have no desire to ever shoot unsuppressed again! Even with a 22 is makes the shooting experience much more pleasant.
So yes, thread all the barrels!
So yes, thread all the barrels!
imagine being such a fudd that you get pissed off enough to write a long rant on threaded barrels?
1) 99% of people are not looking for, or even able to achieve benchrest accuracy.
2) a threaded barrel should have absolutely 0 impact on accuracy.....that "extra metal", counter to your fudd lore, is not to aid in accuracy.....its to mount a fucking bloop tube.
3) anchutz makes several rifles with the evil "threaded muzzle"
4) there is nothing "tactical" about wanting to shoot with a suppressor.....its people wanting to protect their hearing.
go be a fucking retard somewhere else.
1) 99% of people are not looking for, or even able to achieve benchrest accuracy.
2) a threaded barrel should have absolutely 0 impact on accuracy.....that "extra metal", counter to your fudd lore, is not to aid in accuracy.....its to mount a fucking bloop tube.
3) anchutz makes several rifles with the evil "threaded muzzle"
1710 Competition HB 20" SS Threaded XLR TR-2 Chassis 5119 Two Stage Trigger
Anschutz Importation for North America
www.anschutznorthamerica.com
1710 Competition HB 20" SS Threaded Kelbly
Anschutz Importation for North America
www.anschutznorthamerica.com
4) there is nothing "tactical" about wanting to shoot with a suppressor.....its people wanting to protect their hearing.
go be a fucking retard somewhere else.
@littlesister, that was some of the lamest shit ive seen on here in a while. I sure hope youre a 60 yo woman. If not, your screen name is fricken perfect.
This escalated quickly...
I personally agree with the OP. With that said I'm not sure I'm old enough to be a fudd. I do appreciate shooting with a quality suppressor even on rimfire. But I will submit that putting a variable weight (AKA suppressor) on the muzzle of a rimfire is not ideal for optional accuracy. Neither is threading the muzzle, this isn't centerfire shooting a jacketed bullet rimfires can be effected differently.
I'm not saying the OP is 100% correct, I definitely do not know it all. Different strokes for different folks.
Never said Anschutz doesn't make threaded barrels, their most accurate barrels are never threaded.imagine being such a fudd that you get pissed off enough to write a long rant on threaded barrels?
1) 99% of people are not looking for, or even able to achieve benchrest accuracy.
2) a threaded barrel should have absolutely 0 impact on accuracy.....that "extra metal", counter to your fudd lore, is not to aid in accuracy.....its to mount a fucking bloop tube.
3) anchutz makes several rifles with the evil "threaded muzzle"
1710 Competition HB 20" SS Threaded XLR TR-2 Chassis 5119 Two Stage Trigger
Anschutz Importation for North Americawww.anschutznorthamerica.com
1710 Competition HB 20" SS Threaded Kelbly
Anschutz Importation for North Americawww.anschutznorthamerica.com
4) there is nothing "tactical" about wanting to shoot with a suppressor.....its people wanting to protect their hearing.
go be a fucking retard somewhere else.
Its the accusatory nonsense in the OP’s post. Im guessing littlesister hasnt seen many .22 BR rifles. Most (not all) are threaded for use with tuners. Guess they're just “tactical” BR shooters.
I say thread them. Better to have them threaded and not needed than it is to not have them at all. Most benchrest guys I know have tuners on their barrels these days. So it’s not just for suppressors. Suppressors make shooting a lot more enjoyable so there’s also that.
Incorrect. Remfire benchrest shooters use clamp on tuners and thanks for replying without the use of profanity.
Unfortunately, you are incorrect regarding smallbore BR rifles and tuners. The tuners used for BR slip over the end of the barrel and clamp on. The tuners are custom bored to essentially be a slip fit for concentric pressure when tightened.
Prone, 3-position, F-SBR and BR competitors all use the clamping type tuners. In 40 years of smallbore prone and position shooting at all levels, I have only witnessed 1 threaded barrel and it was replaced after 1 season. The post-threading accuracy was noticeably worse after threading.
Can a barrel with a threaded muzzle be accurate? Yes. But you will not see any in the winner’s circle for the competitions I mentioned.
The threading of a barrel can impact accuracy if there are residual stresses in the barrel after manufacturing. This can be mitigated through proper stress relieving processes and / or the sequence in the manufacturing process at which time the threading is conducted.
With regards to the additional material at the muzzle of Anschutz match barrels, this is to induce a slight choke at the muzzle that increases accuracy in many barrels. (The additional material is at the last 2-3”, with the barrel OD reduced back to the chamber area, thus forming the choke at the muzzle by exterior machining vs lapping a taper into the bore.)
This feature was on their earliest match rifles since the 1960’s…. well before any thought of an extension tube or tuner.
"AWD cars are not fast because no AWD cars have ever won NHRA top fuel nationals"
That's essentially what you are saying.
There is no reason to thread a barrel in 3p, prone, or BR.....so you aren't going to see them.
That's not an indictment on their accuracy....theres just no reason to do it...so it isn't done.
So you can't draw conclusions based from the lack of data.
Can you ruin a barrel threading it?....yes
You can ruin a barrel doing ANY machining operation to it....even contouring....
but that doesn't mean that threaded barrels are less accurate than non-threaded barrels.
there is nothing inherent to the threading process that makes the barrel less accurate.
Regarding OP....he is basing his beliefs of "accuracy" based on features of a barrel he doesn't understand....
...and seems to have some sort of prejudice against all threaded barrels as "tactical" and "just a fad"....
Frankly I don't really understand what the point of his boomer bitchfest is
Extra material on the OD does not create a "choke".....that is not how metal works.
In my response to Supersubes, it was to point out the inaccurate blanket statement made that smallbore BR rifles are threaded for mounting tuners.
Are there some smallbore BR rifles out in the wild with threaded muzzles? Maybe. But none of the top SB gunsmiths would consider that for a normal build.
As for the intent of the original post, that’s on the OP. Everyone has their own standards for accuracy.
I have no issues with those who want a threaded barrel or those who do not. YMMV.
If you remove metal from the OD of a barrel, you can relieve the bore. The non-altered region (by the muzzle) would stay slightly more restricted, and thus act as a choke. The amount would be in the region of a few tenths of a thousandths of an inch (.0001”-.0002”).
Actually I have nothing against threading if you need to shoot suppressed and yes I do believe it is the current fad which is why I wanted new shooters to understand that threading is not the way to go if your after accuracy. I challenge you to find a barrel maker or gunsmith that disagrees with that statement.
I won't argue the accuracy component of barrel threading. I do differ on using suppressors because they are "tactical". That's not my reason. It's more pleasant for me. And my neighbors, if they even know I'm shooting, appreciate my suppressors as much as I.
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't want to go that deep into it.
All of modern engineering disagree with you
If this were in any shape or form correct....it would be impossible to have an accurate barrel with any form of contour....
The fact that you can identify a restriction in uncontoured barrel blanks also disproves this fudd lore theory.
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What quantifiable data do you have to back that up? I’ve got repeaters that will hang with and sometimes run circles around the match guns.
The swell at the end of the barrel is for bloop tubes and sight extensions. It’s not there to choke the bore down.
Go back to benchrest and take your fudd lore with you.
That's not how metal works. If they were pulling a button after contouring and threading it could spread it. Guess why they thread last?
If it does move, it's because the barrel wasn't stress relieved and is crap to begin with.
22lr twist rate advantages
Jumped on a fast twist opportunity. A couple weeks back, someone posted Lilja had a series of CZ 457 prefits ready. This spurred my memory from several months back, I had called Lilja base on a comment on their website. Indeed, they do periodic runs of 1x9 twist 22LR barrels, so I got on their...
www.snipershide.com Some conversation about this issue on this page.
Piss off. I'll buy what I like, I'll shoot what I like. If you don't like what I like, then you can proceed onward and fornicate with yourself in that general direction.
I threaded every 22RF barrel I fitted & chambered for several years so I could use my suppressors on them. Initially, I really enjoyed shooting suppressed, even though none of the barrels I've done for my own use were shorter than 22", and thus were fairly quiet with std vel ammo even w/o a suppressor mounted. But as time went on, and I kept lot testing to find lots that brought out the best in the Bartlein, Benchmark, Krieger, Lilja and Shilen barrels I was using, I found that not one of them shot groups as tight with a suppressor mounted as they did w/o a can. I've stopped threading 22RF bbls because of this, and even parted-off the threads on a few of my rifles, and then re-crowned them. Guess what - each & every one of the bbls that's had the threads parted off has shot a bit better than it did when it was threaded. I don't believe than you can cut 1/2-28 threads on a heavy 22RF bbl without the risk of reducing the accuracy potential of a true match grade 22RF bbl. I still enjoy shooting some of my custom 22RF rifles with a suppressor - it's just kool to be that quiet. The only reason there are so many threaded bbls on production 22RF rifles today is because of the demand for threaded barrels - it's like any other marketing reason to do something. Believe what you want, but don't denigrate the facts of the matter because it's counter to what you want to believe.
I wonder if barrel threading is something that Electrochemical machining would improve.
I'm not taking a side here as I really don't care what anyone else does but when you relieve metal from the OD of the bore it will always open up the ID to some degree. How much depends on a lot of factors (what metal, how thick it is, how much was removed, how it was initially rifled, and to what degree it was stress relieved), but it absolutely is a real thing and this can absolutely negatively effect accuracy. This is a fact and anyone who says it isn't true has never actual measured a bore before and after.
We all have our own opinions and beliefs. I understand that I'm life there is a never and always, and I just used some always in my statement but machining is pretty repeatable. If you have a press fit pin in a cylinder you can turn the OF of the cylinder down and the pin will no longer be a press fit (given the correct amount of material is removed and the cylinder isn't to thick).
IMO the real problem with threading a rimfire is that we use 1/2" threads, a larger thread would really help. And like I said the problem I have with a suppressor on a rimfire is the constant variable weight of a suppressor as you shoot it. But this is a nit picky thing and probably doesn't hold water, it's just a variable I don't want in my rimfire world.
I am not here to shit on anyone or start anything, I'm just giving my experience with this subject. And everything I am talking about is marginal gains after everything else is optimized. Not to mention I'm an idiot, so...
We all have our own opinions and beliefs. I understand that I'm life there is a never and always, and I just used some always in my statement but machining is pretty repeatable. If you have a press fit pin in a cylinder you can turn the OF of the cylinder down and the pin will no longer be a press fit (given the correct amount of material is removed and the cylinder isn't to thick).
IMO the real problem with threading a rimfire is that we use 1/2" threads, a larger thread would really help. And like I said the problem I have with a suppressor on a rimfire is the constant variable weight of a suppressor as you shoot it. But this is a nit picky thing and probably doesn't hold water, it's just a variable I don't want in my rimfire world.
I am not here to shit on anyone or start anything, I'm just giving my experience with this subject. And everything I am talking about is marginal gains after everything else is optimized. Not to mention I'm an idiot, so...
Ok. I'm just curious.....
Based on your statement, can you please explain why the swell on the barrel predates the existence of any tuner or barrel extension? Anschutz barrels have had this feature since the 1960's.
prior to the sight extensions and bloop tubes, if you look at the sight setups Anschutz used dovetails that were drilled and tapped at the muzzle it left more material at the muzzle for the screws to engage with.
So the story changes from the swell being there for mounting extension tubes and tuners to allowing more threads for the sight base screws.
Then why wasn't the barrel thicker in the section where they drilled and tapped holes in the barrel for scope sight blocks? Same screws & bases...
See page 22 of the manual, items 27 and 28.... https://archive.org/details/gunmanual_Anschutz_1807To1813/page/n21/mode/2up
A fad would indicate its going away, and I just don't see that happening. Its ridiculously fun to shoot .22's suppressed and since the overwhelming majority of shooters shoot for fun or friendly competition, I don't see it going away. Not to mention the popularity of suppressors is skyrocketing and with that comes 22's as one of the cheapest, and most enjoyable guns to shoot, and shoot suppressed.
The arguments for unthreaded being slightly more, or in some cases, substantially more accurate than threaded barrels makes sense, so I'm not arguing that, but the WAY you say it makes its seem like a threaded barrel CAN'T be even close to the accuracy of a non threaded barrel. When in reality a quality threaded 22 rifle, with good ammo will be more than accurate enough for 95% of all shooters. Essentially, benchrest or extreme precision shooters are the only ones who are going to benefit from the difference in threaded vs unthreaded barrels.
If your real goal, as you say, is to educate "new" shooters, then a word vomit rant using buzzwords on a precision rifle forum is a pretty poor way to do that. When you say, "threading is not the way to go if you're after accuracy"...such a vague and misleading sentence. What you REALLY mean, is if you are capable of extreme BR style precision, and you want the absolute best in the world, then you don't want a threaded barrel. Anything else just seems misleading for a new shooter who doesn't understand the difference between an "accurate rifle" and a benchrest accurate rifle used by top competitive shooters.
Either way, I like the increasing number of factory rifles with threaded barrels. If you want BR accuracy, you're not buying some off the shelf factory gun anyways.
It's foolish to come in with such an ultimatum stance, suggesting that anyone doing something different then what you believe is foolish and a fad. Certainly not a good way to engage in an objective discussion on the topic.
Plenty of good reasons for why those may want to shoot .22's with a suppressor. Many have been stated here, so there's no need to rehash that. But to pretend that there is no good reason to suppress a .22 is idiotic.
As to the argument about precision - .22's are not my expertise. I would love to hear more about accuracy potential in .22's, and how it may be affected by muzzle threading. I'm going to tag in some people that know a lot more about this then I. @bohem @orkan @LongRifles Inc. @Frank Green
In regards to precision, I'm willing to bet the quality of ammo is a much bigger limiting factor in .22's then muzzle threading is.
Plenty of good reasons for why those may want to shoot .22's with a suppressor. Many have been stated here, so there's no need to rehash that. But to pretend that there is no good reason to suppress a .22 is idiotic.
As to the argument about precision - .22's are not my expertise. I would love to hear more about accuracy potential in .22's, and how it may be affected by muzzle threading. I'm going to tag in some people that know a lot more about this then I. @bohem @orkan @LongRifles Inc. @Frank Green
In regards to precision, I'm willing to bet the quality of ammo is a much bigger limiting factor in .22's then muzzle threading is.
Go back and read my OP. I don't consider it to be a word vomit rant ! I used the abbreviation BS one time. If you want word vomit then look a some of the first replies. I also never said threaded barrels won't shoot and never said not to shoot suppressed. never said anything about benchrest accuracy.
I have not had any of my suppressed rifles be able to shoot with my non-suppressed rifles. The addition of a suppressor to a threaded barrel doesn't seem to affect its precision/accuracy too badly... so I've come to the conclusion that the threads themselves must be contributing to the problem.
It's a small problem, depending on what you're asking of your rifle. I have never been able to get a 1/2x28 threaded barrel to shoot in the .1's. Not consistently. Definitely not with a suppressor. I've had a couple I could get shooting in the .2's, but it was high 2's and it was sporadic. I don't have the same problems with my centerfires... so I'm thinking it has to do with the thread length vs the bullets bearing surface length... but I can't be sure.
Conversely, my non-threaded target crown rifles, shoot very consistently. I can take my main rimX out whenever I want and shoot in the .1's and .2's. I can't say that with any of my threaded setups... with or without suppressor.
My opinion is that if you want a suppressor, shoot a suppressor... but don't expect it to shoot like a dyed in the wool target rifle. I love suppressed 22's... and have many. Though if I need to put on a display of shooting prowess, they don't get picked. Several of my suppressed .22's will shoot in the .3's regularly. That's enough when I'm hunting. It's not enough when I'm on a fly safari at 50yds.
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Oh, I forgot to address a few previous posts regarding thread on tuners.
I have run some EC tuners and Ezell tuners which were threaded, but those threads were quite large. They were not the 1/2x28 threads typically found in use for a 22lr suppressor. A 1/2" thread diameter on a .22cal bore is certainly going to give more bore diameter growth than a 3/4" thread. I think the ezell's are like .875 major diameter. That's not much material removal on a MTU barrel with a .930 muzzle.
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I have run some EC tuners and Ezell tuners which were threaded, but those threads were quite large. They were not the 1/2x28 threads typically found in use for a 22lr suppressor. A 1/2" thread diameter on a .22cal bore is certainly going to give more bore diameter growth than a 3/4" thread. I think the ezell's are like .875 major diameter. That's not much material removal on a MTU barrel with a .930 muzzle.
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Ask specifically about the bore opening up (no matter who's barrel or how is stress relieved) & how that effects rimfire. If you find people who have actually measured it before and after both in terms of size and accuracy I think you will see a commonality. But like Greg said it's not major, it's the last little bit of accuracy potential that we are talking about. Again don't listen to me, I'm an amateur just puttering around with these rifles. Listen to the guys who know...
I have not had any of my suppressed rifles be able to shoot with my non-suppressed rifles. The addition of a suppressor to a threaded barrel doesn't seem to affect its precision/accuracy too badly... so I've come to the conclusion that the threads themselves must be contributing to the problem.
It's a small problem, depending on what you're asking of your rifle. I have never been able to get a 1/2x28 threaded barrel to shoot in the .1's. Not consistently. Definitely not with a suppressor. I've had a couple I could get shooting in the .2's, but it was high 2's and it was sporadic. I don't have the same problems with my centerfires... so I'm thinking it has to do with the thread length vs the bullets bearing surface length... but I can't be sure.
Conversely, my non-threaded target crown rifles, shoot very consistently. I can take my main rimX out whenever I want and shoot in the .1's and .2's. I can't say that with any of my threaded setups... with or without suppressor.
My opinion is that if you want a suppressor, shoot a suppressor... but don't expect it to shoot like a dyed in the wool target rifle. I love suppressed 22's... and have many. Though if I need to put on a display of shooting prowess, they don't get picked. Several of my suppressed .22's will shoot in the .3's regularly. That's enough when I'm hunting. It's not enough when I'm on a fly safari at 50yds.
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Agreed, that's what I'm trying to say also. Greg said it better.Oh, I forgot to address a few previous posts regarding thread on tuners.
I have run some EC tuners and Ezell tuners which were threaded, but those threads were quite large. They were not the 1/2x28 threads typically found in use for a 22lr suppressor. A 1/2" thread diameter on a .22cal bore is certainly going to give more bore diameter growth than a 3/4" thread. I think the ezell's are like .875 major diameter. That's not much material removal on a MTU barrel with a .930 muzzle.
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That's why I've tagged in people that I know much more about this topic then I. I find it interesting, the world of precision rimfire is one that I haven't dabbled in, my knowledge is extremely limited.
My apologies to the OP for being blunt in my first post, I was being a bit snarky. Like many others in this thread, the tone of the OP in the original post struck me as very unobjective and unnuanced.
However, now I'm sucked in and want to learn more about this subject.
Watch the video. It's good but doesn't give you all the detail. I had nothing to do with making the video! It was done and then sent to me and asked me to look at it after it was posted.
Regardless of caliber or RF vs CF....
Depending on how the barrel is made...cutting muzzle threads and this is common with button and hammer forged barrels....that when you cut the threads...the bore typically will open up on you/go sour. Not just the bore (tops of the lands) but it will have a negative impact on the grooves as well. Will it happen with every single one? I'll say no but it does happen more than you think.
The last place you want the bore to go sour is at the muzzles crown. Anything negative here can (not always but can...really depends on the gun/caliber and how much the dimensions have changed) have a impact on accuracy.
The last two barrels in the video are ours even though he cut the threads to a larger spec...we typically never see a cut rifled barrel going sour like that after threading. All the barrels prior to the last two are button rifled barrels (I know who's they are (two different makers) and I'm not going to relay here as to who's they are.
The point he is trying to make in the video is to cut the largest thread you can to help resist the bore going sour. That's the point of the video.
We've cut muzzle threads out of test barrels that started at 2.280" in diameter and we didn't lose a single one and we cut it down to a 5/8" thread.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
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Should've thrown this in there as well.
Just last month a local guy brought in a 6.5CM factory made PRS type rifle (I also with hold the name of the maker of the rifle) and the barrels are button rifled. Guy couldn't get the gun to shoot under 1.5moa. Asked us to look at it. I noticed it had a thread protector....so I said, "nope let's measure the barrel at the muzzle end first!" Yep....bore opened up .0004"! I said that's your problem and your not going to fix it!
I told the guy he had two options.....
First I would call the manufacturer and tell them the situation and see if they would stand behind the barrel/rifle. If not....
I said on the cheap side...have your buddy cut the threads off and recrown the barrel and don't thread the muzzle! If it then shoots like a million bucks...run it till it pukes! Then put a new barrel on the gun.
Later, Frank
Just last month a local guy brought in a 6.5CM factory made PRS type rifle (I also with hold the name of the maker of the rifle) and the barrels are button rifled. Guy couldn't get the gun to shoot under 1.5moa. Asked us to look at it. I noticed it had a thread protector....so I said, "nope let's measure the barrel at the muzzle end first!" Yep....bore opened up .0004"! I said that's your problem and your not going to fix it!
I told the guy he had two options.....
First I would call the manufacturer and tell them the situation and see if they would stand behind the barrel/rifle. If not....
I said on the cheap side...have your buddy cut the threads off and recrown the barrel and don't thread the muzzle! If it then shoots like a million bucks...run it till it pukes! Then put a new barrel on the gun.
Later, Frank
I personally wouldn't thread a RF barrel unless I want to run a can to make the gun as quiet as possible for shooting raccoon's and squirrels etc...
Best ammo to shoot is usually the match ammo. The match ammo to begin with is already subsonic. So why run a can on a RF for match type shooting?
If you are practicing or shooting in PRS type RF matches and you want the suppressor on the gun so it gives you the same feel and balance of your centerfire rig...I can see that.
Best ammo to shoot is usually the match ammo. The match ammo to begin with is already subsonic. So why run a can on a RF for match type shooting?
If you are practicing or shooting in PRS type RF matches and you want the suppressor on the gun so it gives you the same feel and balance of your centerfire rig...I can see that.
We can go round and round. I’ve been in the factory and watched the rifles being made, watched the barrels go from round stock to finished. Frankly, you’re wrong in your thinking that the flared muzzles act as a choke.
Yet, let me tell you with authority on how they behave.
And while you're at it GET OFF MY LAWN
At least I can keep my position consistent.
From you latest response, I take it that you are not going to answer my question in response to your statement that the swell is now for increased thread depth. It’s fine by all accounts. We will just have to agree to disagree.
Have a good evening.
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