22lr twist rate advantages

[drglock]

Jumped on a fast twist opportunity.

A couple weeks back, someone posted Lilja had a series of CZ 457 prefits ready. This spurred my memory from several months back, I had called Lilja base on a comment on their website. Indeed, they do periodic runs of 1x9 twist 22LR barrels, so I got on their list. Fast forward to the comments a couple weeks ago, I called again. I was in fact on the list and had a 23” 1x9 twist on the way.
It arrived yesterday, so I went to work. It was very interesting seeing how changes in headspace changed group sizes. It didn’t take long to realize this barrel had potential. Accuracy was incredible with A LCX lot# my Vudoo was not at all fond of.
The .003 barrel shim was the magic number for bug hole accuracy and bolt lift. Not just one, but multiple bug holes followed. The wind and rain put a stop to the testing.
Today, I was able to shoot with no wind at 146 and 208 yards.
Unfortunately, I was a little disappointed. Not necessarily with accuracy, but with the drop. Accuracy at least matched/maybe surpassed my Vudoo (1x16 twist and 20”), but required about .7 more elevation at 146 and 1.3 more at 208 yards. Upon trueing my velocity, it showed 1009 fps.
In a better comparison, the same CZ with a 20” 1x16 barrel averaged 1085 via trued velocity. So somehow, the new Lilja 23” 1x9 barrel is running about 75 FPS slower.

I fully acknowledge the barrel only has a about 150 rounds on it, so the velocity may pick up. I also want to run it through my chronograph to validate the velocity.

I’ve been intrigued with fast twist barrels for a while and look forward to my continued testing and validation.

Reviewing other “fast twist” information, especially that of MB has me on pins and needles for his continued test results, as it seems he did not experience a velocity loss.

Anyone else have input/experience on fast twist velocity?

When me and my buddy put Lilja barrels on our CZ 457’s that’s the first thing we noticed. Accuracy was really good with the Lilja’s but velocity was quite a bit slower. CZ factory barrels with SKRM was 1080fps on my gun, the Lilja was 1042fps with the same lot of SKRM. I now shoot a RimX. He still shoots the 457 but we both run Green Mountain barrels and we both feel like they are on the faster side. These were all 1-16 barrels.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Jumped on a fast twist opportunity.

A couple weeks back, someone posted Lilja had a series of CZ 457 prefits ready. This spurred my memory from several months back, I had called Lilja base on a comment on their website. Indeed, they do periodic runs of 1x9 twist 22LR barrels, so I got on their list. Fast forward to the comments a couple weeks ago, I called again. I was in fact on the list and had a 23” 1x9 twist on the way.
It arrived yesterday, so I went to work. It was very interesting seeing how changes in headspace changed group sizes. It didn’t take long to realize this barrel had potential. Accuracy was incredible with A LCX lot# my Vudoo was not at all fond of.
The .003 barrel shim was the magic number for bug hole accuracy and bolt lift. Not just one, but multiple bug holes followed. The wind and rain put a stop to the testing.
Today, I was able to shoot with no wind at 146 and 208 yards.
Unfortunately, I was a little disappointed. Not necessarily with accuracy, but with the drop. Accuracy at least matched/maybe surpassed my Vudoo (1x16 twist and 20”), but required about .7 more elevation at 146 and 1.3 more at 208 yards. Upon trueing my velocity, it showed 1009 fps.
In a better comparison, the same CZ with a 20” 1x16 barrel averaged 1085 via trued velocity. So somehow, the new Lilja 23” 1x9 barrel is running about 75 FPS slower.

I fully acknowledge the barrel only has a about 150 rounds on it, so the velocity may pick up. I also want to run it through my chronograph to validate the velocity.

I’ve been intrigued with fast twist barrels for a while and look forward to my continued testing and validation.

Reviewing other “fast twist” information, especially that of MB has me on pins and needles for his continued test results, as it seems he did not experience a velocity loss.

Anyone else have input/experience on fast twist velocity?

I have one of those sister barrels, actual two inbound due Thursday. I'm away from home, so they obliged me to ship them a little latter so that they don't sit on the porch. I ordered them back in March? April? and they had my card on file so I have no idea how much they are until I get my credit card bill

Did you measure your bolt face, or just try shimming? When I talked to the Lilja guy (carson?) he said Center X and 0.42 worked best- if I remember the units and decimal place correct. I don't think I have all the right gear for the depth tester. Could you use a caliper to measure the depth of the bolt face?

How would you de-conflict the headspace, barrel bolt on torque, and the action torque. Or even headspace and ammo lot?

How did you break in the barrel? That is one thing I forgot to ask Lilja.

I hope to get the gun put together for this weekend and run it up against my Elrod 40X conversion with 26 inch Benchmark barrel and my sons CZ VPT. Not great weather forecasted, but at least get some zeros and velocities.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Jumped on a fast twist opportunity.

A couple weeks back, someone posted Lilja had a series of CZ 457 prefits ready. This spurred my memory from several months back, I had called Lilja base on a comment on their website. Indeed, they do periodic runs of 1x9 twist 22LR barrels, so I got on their list. Fast forward to the comments a couple weeks ago, I called again. I was in fact on the list and had a 23” 1x9 twist on the way.
It arrived yesterday, so I went to work. It was very interesting seeing how changes in headspace changed group sizes. It didn’t take long to realize this barrel had potential. Accuracy was incredible with A LCX lot# my Vudoo was not at all fond of.
The .003 barrel shim was the magic number for bug hole accuracy and bolt lift. Not just one, but multiple bug holes followed. The wind and rain put a stop to the testing.
Today, I was able to shoot with no wind at 146 and 208 yards.
Unfortunately, I was a little disappointed. Not necessarily with accuracy, but with the drop. Accuracy at least matched/maybe surpassed my Vudoo (1x16 twist and 20”), but required about .7 more elevation at 146 and 1.3 more at 208 yards. Upon trueing my velocity, it showed 1009 fps.
In a better comparison, the same CZ with a 20” 1x16 barrel averaged 1085 via trued velocity. So somehow, the new Lilja 23” 1x9 barrel is running about 75 FPS slower.

I fully acknowledge the barrel only has a about 150 rounds on it, so the velocity may pick up. I also want to run it through my chronograph to validate the velocity.

I’ve been intrigued with fast twist barrels for a while and look forward to my continued testing and validation.

Reviewing other “fast twist” information, especially that of MB has me on pins and needles for his continued test results, as it seems he did not experience a velocity loss.

Anyone else have input/experience on fast twist velocity?

Awesome post, great info. So, two questions....how tight is the bore in the Lilja nine twist and what was the air temperature, station pressure and humidity at the time you were shooting? There appears to be a very important correlation between environmental factors and velocity from the faster twist rimfire barrels. Also, I’ve found that tight bores are better for 16 twist barrels than faster twist barrels.

The two, 22” nine twist rifles I took to Alabama were 10 fps faster than my 20” 16 twist rifle (1094 vs 1084), but as temperature rose and station pressure and humidity changed, the velocity from the nine twist barrel went down but the 16 twist velocity changed very little. However, SD, BC and accuracy still favored the nine twist.

MB

 

[JBoomhauer]

@Bowie 6

26” 10 Twist here, 1090fps with SKLR. Have not chronod it side by side with a 16t.

 

[RAVAGE88]

@Bowie 6

26” 10 Twist here, 1090fps with SKLR. Have not chronod it side by side with a 16t.

Awesome, that’s six fps faster than my 16 twist and four fps slower than my nine twist. Whose barrel are you using?

MB

 

[JBoomhauer]

Awesome, that’s six fps faster than my 16 twist and four fps slower than my nine twist. Whose barrel are you using?

MB

Shilen ratchet. Sk lot starting with 20

 

[RAVAGE88]

Shilen ratchet.

Very interesting, I have five of those on order, but they’re 10 twist. They told me they weren’t doing them in nine....do you mind measuring yours?

MB

 

[JBoomhauer]

Very interesting, I have five of those on order, but they’re 10 twist. They told me they weren’t doing them in nine....do you mind measuring yours?

MB

This one is a 10w.

 

[RAVAGE88]

This one is a 10w.

Awesome, makes sense now....thanks Dude .

MB

 

[Gleedus]

Its always interesting watching the differences in velocity. I have a 26" IBI I get the same velocity as my 18" factory Ruger bolt guns do. But that is all ammo dependent some ammo slow down more then others. Same is true of temp. I dont shoot SK much but at 10⁰c / 50⁰f my lot of SKLR is 1079 fps.

 

[Bowie 6]

Alcon,
Thanks for additional information and comments.
Answers to questions:

Lilja barrel install- I did have a Smith friend measure the depth and that was 1.246. Subtract the known tenon length of 1.200 gave me an un-shimmed headspace of .046. This is where things went South in my mind. Any use of shims would make that worse, adding space between bolt face and the barrel. So I assumed a measurement, math or combination of the two was incorrect. Knowing the bolt would not close when HS was too small, I abandoned the math and went the trial/error route.
No shims resulted in very tight bolt, but it would close. I shot one 5 shot bug hole group just to see what it would do. Then proceeded with .002 out to .007. Groups were amazing to .004, but showed to be opening up. .005 certainly opened and remained mediocre to .007. I returned to .003 and continued my tests at 60 yards to validate. I was confident this was the number based on repeated bug hole groups.
Lilja specifically notes there is no requirement to break in the barrel. However, I did run a few patches through it before I began and then after 50 shots, with extra attention at the bore.

Weather factors - unfortunately I did not specifically document. However, it was high 80s and high humidity with storms in the area.
I’ll shoot again today and record the weather data.

Bore diameter - I’ll try to measure tonight.

 

[grauhanen]

Alcon,
Thanks for additional information and comments.
Answers to questions:

Lilja barrel install- I did have a Smith friend measure the depth and that was 1.246. Subtract the known tenon length of 1.200 gave me an un-shimmed headspace of .046. This is where things went South in my mind. Any use of shims would make that worse, adding space between bolt face and the barrel. So I assumed a measurement, math or combination of the two was incorrect. Knowing the bolt would not close when HS was too small, I abandoned the math and went the trial/error route.
No shims resulted in very tight bolt, but it would close. I shot one 5 shot bug hole group just to see what it would do. Then proceeded with .002 out to .007. Groups were amazing to .004, but showed to be opening up. .005 certainly opened and remained mediocre to .007. I returned to .003 and continued my tests at 60 yards to validate. I was confident this was the number based on repeated bug hole groups.
Lilja specifically notes there is no requirement to break in the barrel. However, I did run a few patches through it before I began and then after 50 shots, with extra attention at the bore.

Perhaps the measurement of 1.246 from the "receiver face to the bolt face recess while the action is cocked" (Lilja's words for where the measurement is taken) is not correct.

You say that with no shims the bolt face is very tight -- that is, very close to the head of the round. Shims will add some space between the bolt face recess and the barrel.

 

[Bowie 6]

I was able to briefly shoot today at 220 yards.
90*, SP - 28.56 and RH 45%

Dope was again 1.3-.4 mils more than my historical 1x16 twist data and that of my Vudoo, shot immediately following.

The interesting thing I will “initially” say is that the fast twist had a notable decrease in left- right stringing considering the conditions. This is simply a preliminary thought and will need further duplication to declare it a fact.

I was not able to get the bore measured, will try tomorrow.

 

[Gleedus]

I was able to briefly shoot today at 220 yards.
90*, SP - 28.56 and RH 45%

Dope was again 1.3-.4 mils more than my historical 1x16 twist data and that of my Vudoo, shot immediately following.

The interesting thing I will “initially” say is that the fast twist had a notable decrease in left- right stringing considering the conditions. This is simply a preliminary thought and will need further duplication to declare it a fact.

I was not able to get the bore measured, will try tomorrow.

Velocity difference barrel to barrel can make that difference. So I dont expect your having a BC issue. Did you crono both rifles?

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Got my 457 Lilja fast twist barrel(s). Mounted one up in a brand new 457 action, MDT ACC Chassis, 20MOA rail and 20MIL Eratac mount. Using my CF rifle’s Vortex Razor HDII Had to jerry rig measuring the action depth, but I set it to 043, or how ever that voodo math works out

22 inch barrel looks funny in the chassis. Amazing how long it takes me to put a rifle together. Looking forward to some fun this weekend, as long as the weather doesn’t blow.

 

[CBeck]

My 9 twist is at Lapua getting tested next week. Once it’s back home I’ll be able to do some real testing finally.

 

[Bowie 6]

More on my adventures with the Lilja 1x9.

I’m not a fan of shiny barrels, so dismounted, scuffed and coated with Aluma Hyde II flat black. Very impressed with results, then baked at 195 for 3 hours to expedite drying.

I did measure the bore and came up with .215 multiple times and .220 a few times as well. Upon researching, that corresponds with Lija’s tight bore measurements exactly. So this is likely why my velocity is lower.

Speaking of velocity, I had favorable conditions and took the fast twist out to 250 yards. Accuracy was again very impressive. Ended up trueing again based on further distance and came up with 1030fps (Lapua CX. So that’s a little faster than initial testing.

Another interesting note, I came across a couple boxes of SK Auto and thought I would try some at 250 while there. To my amazement, it was well over the plate. I ended up dialing down from 10.4 MILS to 9.1, which was my normal 1x16 dope. Accuracy was very close to the LCX. To confirm the SK Auto, I dialed down to 50, moved forward and it was still on. Two factors are at play, I think. Sk Auto advertises at 1132fps, so that puts the tight bore reduced velocity very near my normal 1x16 velocity of 1085 or the dimensions of this bullet
different minimizing friction as compared to LCX.

Accuracy is still fantastic, but I’m not yet 100% convinced it is better. Meaning: bucks wind better, better accuracy than a 1x16 from 50-350 yards. Time will tell though.

Looking forward to other’s results!

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Got to the range to Zero the 457/1-9Lilja rifle. Was just getting a zero and my son some time behind the gun. It's in a new MDT-ACC chassis that we are trying to fit to him, along with the Razor optic. Had to get home to get the ribs on. Planning on going to the CRC Silhouette range on Monday to try it out again and get some longer data. 50 yards with an non-optimized set up and it was one-holing them with CX. I have some SK standard, match and long range that I'll try on Monday.

 

[Bd1]

I think vudoo has someone making them for them. I am not aware of any one doing anything like that with CZ

Although I wonder if the fast twist works with 20"

Obviously the 16 and 18 are out

Litja is making 9 twist for cz 457 call them testing a 23" now

 

[JBoomhauer]

I shot a match with the 10tw on Saturday. It did well. Was able to make hits out to 400 with it.

Did some testing today with a couple more knowledgeable friends and things are starting to come together.

I was able to go 5/5 Impacts today walking it out from 203, 231,257,291 to 346.

 

[RAVAGE88]

I shot a match with the 10tw on Saturday. It did well. Was able to make hits out to 400 with it.

Did some testing today with a couple more knowledgeable friends and things are starting to come together.

I was able to go 5/5 Impacts today walking it out from 203, 231,257,291 to 346.

Dude! Great shooting with you today, thanks for taking the time to drive down.

MB

 

[CBeck]

I shot a match with the 10tw on Saturday. It did well. Was able to make hits out to 400 with it.

Did some testing today with a couple more knowledgeable friends and things are starting to come together.

I was able to go 5/5 Impacts today walking it out from 203, 231,257,291 to 346.

We’re you able to figure out something different with your dope?

 

[JBoomhauer]

It’s much more consistent with better ammunition. The stuff I was using had a ton of vertical.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Dude! Great shooting with you today, thanks for taking the time to drive down.

Good shooting today! You destroyed that 4” diamond at 257.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Good shooting today! You destroyed that 4” diamond at 257.

Thanks, Dude! You too, and now you know what's happening with that pistol ammo. Til next time....

MB

 

[Drew M]

Dude! Great shooting with you today, thanks for taking the time to drive down.

MB

Very nice Gentlemen,
Those rifles are bordering on works of art.

Not sure if the colour adds to it but @JBoomhauer that Shilen looks like a very heavy contour, what is it ?

MB could I get some specs on yours please ?

Thanks for sharing with us

Drew

 

[JBoomhauer]

That’s a 26” heavy varmint contour.

 

[RAVAGE88]

That’s a 26” heavy varmint contour.

Post up pics of your new crown!….please

MB

 

[JBoomhauer]

One of the things that was found yesterday was a loose section in the barrel right at the muzzle.

I took it to the lathe and removed the 1/2-28 threads and about .100 beyond the shoulder.

Should be able to test on Friday and see if it shrinks the groups at all.

 

[JBoomhauer]

So I suppose it’s a 25.4” barrel now.

Maybe 25.4 will convert the barrel.

 

[Oregon widgeon]

It would be best if you send it in, but we're not ready to start doing more nine twist builds just yet. The barrel has to be made very specifically and there's a lot more to educate end users on as it relates to what to expect in performance and why. We'll communicate accordingly as we stand up vendors to make barrels to my specs so the variables are under control.

MB

I have been thinking of ordering a vudoo with a 1-9 for a while now . I've been following your progress with testing. What are the the things you have to educate to the end users ? I'm very curious and somewhat anxious to see if a 1-9 is the way to go for this build .

 

[RAVAGE88]

I have been thinking of ordering a vudoo with a 1-9 for a while now . I've been following your progress with testing. What are the the things you have to educate to the end users ? I'm very curious and somewhat anxious to see if a 1-9 is the way to go for this build .

This is an interesting post and an even more interesting question. After thinking on it a bit, I wrote a post on my IG channel (vudoo_labs) because there’s so much detail to cover as it relates to why I started down the fast twist path. What I’m pasting below isn’t intended to be the total answer and there will be more details to cover over a period of time.

“I receive a lot of outreach from highly passionate people in Rimfire World that want to experience what it’s like to do things with a 22LR that were, until five or so years ago, thought to be impossible for such a “diminutive” round. Within this outreach, there’s one simple question that, if I were to provide a “simple” answer, it wouldn’t be an answer at all until you dig deeply into an enormous chasm of details. The question pertains to what we’ve been doing with nine twist barrels and it is, “What are the the things you have to educate to the end users?” For starters, I have to back up and relate this question to why I’ve been working so much with the nine twist and the simple answer is, “Everything. Matters.” To make this answer more challenging, your specific goals will add twisty little nuances that force this answer to take on different forms. So, if we keep this higher level for a moment, I’ll say, start with the correct bore convention. There are times that it’s great to have a tighter bore dimension with a rifling design that provides a higher percentage of engraving, but I lean pretty far away from that mindset. I prefer to run a “minimally invasive” bore convention because it’s more forgiving across a broader range of shooter goals. Next, I’m not a fan of threaded muzzles. Don’t get me wrong, I love suppressors as much as the next guy and I hunt with them, but there are times they don’t belong on your rimfire. There, I said it. Simply stated, muzzle threads alter your bore convention over a short distance and it’s the last thing your bullet “feels” prior to departing your barrel. The next thing is the chamber, not just any chamber will do, which is why the @vudoogunworks chamber is proprietary and this leads us to the next three important things on the list; ammo, ammo and ammo. Now, this short list of details within my answer, “Everything. Matters.,” is not in any way, all inclusive, as there are so many more twisty details involved. So, due to limited space, I’ll close with this; just because you put a fast twist barrel on your rimfire doesn’t and will never mean you’ve satisfied everything it takes to achieve your goals. Success is in the details.”

MB

 

[B y r o n]

MB,

I know you stated that accuracy increased considerably when you went from 18" to 22", but did you test anything in between or over and if so what were your observations?

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

This thread has given me some conflicts. *Note - I ordered a Ravage w/18" barrel about a month ago.* Damn! I shoulda read this first and specced 1:9. But 18" don't work so gotta re-do that. But wait - I was quoted September delivery. If I change now it'll be what...December?! And then to cap it all off I'm a rookie. I don't have the years and rounds you guys have. I've had a couple 10/22s for a couple months and the drive to get better.

Ima keep reading, following Mike's words of wisdom and the thoughts of the community. I'm sure my Vudoo will be way better'n me. When I catch up I'll think about another.

Thanks Mike!

lou

 

[huntnh]

You should be fine there really easy to work with. Iv had a great experience

 

[Hoser]

My Vudoo 360 has a 16 twist. Really thinking about a 9 twist. Crap.

 

[RAVAGE88]

MB,

I know you stated that accuracy increased considerably when you went from 18" to 22", but did you test anything in between or over and if so what were your observations?

No sir, nothing in between, I followed the math and based on the TOF testing that followed a few years of field tests, the math was correct.

MB

 

[Rimdenter]

You really need to decide exactly what this or any gun you get is required to do. If your trying to achieve 1 MOA to 300 yds your abilities will need to be better then the gun itself. Anything Mike cranks out will shoot , you need to decide where you want it to shoot at. 50,100,200,300 yds ect.

 

[JBoomhauer]

You really need to decide exactly what this or any gun you get is required to do. If your trying to achieve 1 MOA to 300 yds your abilities will need to be better then the gun itself. Anything Mike cranks out will shoot , you need to decide where you want it to shoot at. 50,100,200,300 yds ect.

To play off Frank’s barrels are tires saying.

16 Twist is like a great all season tire.

9 Twist is more like a mud or race tire with a specific purpose in mind.

 

[huntnh]

@RAVAGE88 i just noticed most of your guns aren’t threaded barrels do you use a target crown or flat crown?

 

[Bowie 6]

Well, I finally bit the bullet, literally. With 21 days to go from estimated completion date, I made the change. My V22-360 will now be 22”, 1x9 and no threads.
The change may cost me a little on ship date, but is ultimately what I want and believe in for the greatest opportunity to achieve my goals.
We shall see!

 

[JBoomhauer]

Here are the results of chopping the threads off and recrowning. Not bad at all for getting eaten by mosquitoes while shooting. Things are starting to come together.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Groups before cutting muzzle threads off, but much more stable and relaxed shooting that day.

 

[Drew M]

Thanks again Mike for sharing this here,

It makes sense to not have the bore as tight with the faster twist to me.

Also agree that threads can & do change the last section in the barrel.
I'll relate it this way,
My .308 was sub 1/2" @ 100 with no brake & thread cap finger tight.
Due to a shoulder injury, I added a brake to make it manageable & the group sizes doubled, awaiting surgery so haven't removed the brake to see if it goes back to how it was.

@RAVAGE88 I'm curious about the math required to work out out optimum barrel length ?
Its probably over my head but always like to learn the why.
I remember the Houston warehouse article where a 22" barrel is mentioned for best accuracy.
(By chance my .223 is 22" & its a a hammer)

@JBoomhauer Can't wait to see the measurments of those group & do you feel that it has improved with the threads removed ?
Was the opinion that the thread or operation of threading the cause of the loose section right at the muzzle ?

Thanks to everyone contributing here.
Drew

 

[JBoomhauer]

The top 6 groups averaged .296”. The best was .197 C2C. So about .125” smaller groups at 50y.

Yes I work in manufacturing and it’s pretty normal to have material relieve itself after stock removal. We usually turn tight dimensions in stages alternating cutting the OD, then ID to let the stresses release before the finish bore and turn. Even if it is stress relieved material.

The less material you disturb the more stable it will be, so larger threads, say 5/8-24 or 3/4-24 would result in less movement on bore diameter. Target crown would move the least.

 

[Drew M]

Makes sense to me, which would mean that the only way for a thread at the muzzle end to have less influence would be too do the thread before final boring & finishing.

My lathe might be getting a bit use soon.

 

[Rimdenter]

The top 6 groups averaged .296”. The best was .197 C2C. So about .125” smaller groups at 50y.

Yes I work in manufacturing and it’s pretty normal to have material relieve itself after stock removal. We usually turn tight dimensions in stages alternating cutting the OD, then ID to let the stresses release before the finish bore and turn. Even if it is stress relieved material.

The less material you disturb the more stable it will be, so larger threads, say 5/8-24 or 3/4-24 would result in less movement on bore diameter. Target crown would move the least.

In the aircraft industry we flipped billets several times during roughing opps. to maintain stability we deep hole bored up to 10 feet with a 18-1 solid 6" carbide bar. The bar alone in 2003 without head was $90,000 and yes ! Od. I'd. Od. I'd finish !

 

[JBoomhauer]

Makes sense to me, which would mean that the only way for a thread at the muzzle end to have less influence would be too do the thread before final boring & finishing.

My lathe might be getting a bit use soon.

It would have to be roughed to say thread Major Dia + .020 from the barrel manufacturer. Which would be impractical for them to do.

 

[Quickoz]

Mmmmm this is all very interesting. I havent even shot my 16T Three60 yet but I'd love to be able to throw a 9T Prefit on it down the track....

MB, the testing your doing is awesome. I love it. Keep it up mate. I think the faster twist barrels would be even more benefit at locations where your at/close to sea level which alot of my shooting is.

 

[RAVAGE88]

@RAVAGE88 i just noticed most of your guns aren’t threaded barrels do you use a target crown or flat crown?

I use an 11 degree recessed crown; it’s the exact crown Boomhauer posted above. After he lopped off the threads and tested with the new crown, his groups closed up considerably, which has more to do with doing away with the threads but his crown work was exceptional.

MB