How important is the torque of a barrel on accuracy? I guess my question should read is why would a barrel torqued into a receiver at say 60#'s be more or less accurate than a barrel spun in hand tight to the receiver
Gunsmithing barrel torque
- Thread starter bulldog896
- Start date
Re: barrel torque
I personally don't think it would be, making it too tight is just putting stress on the threads. Once the shoulder his the lug or action thats it, snug it up. Now obviously you wouldn't want it to just be hand tight because it could loosen after it heats up.
For consistency I'd torque it the same everytime to whatever you choose
I personally don't think it would be, making it too tight is just putting stress on the threads. Once the shoulder his the lug or action thats it, snug it up. Now obviously you wouldn't want it to just be hand tight because it could loosen after it heats up.
For consistency I'd torque it the same everytime to whatever you choose
Re: barrel torque
Alot of bench shooters just hand snap them into place. As in right before it fully seats against the rreciever they give a hard fast finall spin and it snaps up against the action. The ones I've talked to say that even done this way a wrench is still needed to remove the barrel.
Alot of bench shooters just hand snap them into place. As in right before it fully seats against the rreciever they give a hard fast finall spin and it snaps up against the action. The ones I've talked to say that even done this way a wrench is still needed to remove the barrel.
Re: barrel torque
More important than the torque, which is still very important, is the accuracy of the threads. You can take a barrel to max torque that doesn't have accurate threads and you are never going to squeeze the last ounce of accuracy out of it. If the threads are accurate to each other it will take less torque to make the barrel shoot better.
Innaccurate threads tend to let the barrel tighten up where it may. Because of a lack of surface area touching within the threads. Even though there is tightness that holds the barrel in place the barrel can still change in relationship to the receiver. Accurate threads hold the barrel in place, all the while because of all of the surface always touching. When you torque the barrel up, all the threads tighten together.
Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. I like to use wet barrel torque so there is less galling of the threads.
More important than the torque, which is still very important, is the accuracy of the threads. You can take a barrel to max torque that doesn't have accurate threads and you are never going to squeeze the last ounce of accuracy out of it. If the threads are accurate to each other it will take less torque to make the barrel shoot better.
Innaccurate threads tend to let the barrel tighten up where it may. Because of a lack of surface area touching within the threads. Even though there is tightness that holds the barrel in place the barrel can still change in relationship to the receiver. Accurate threads hold the barrel in place, all the while because of all of the surface always touching. When you torque the barrel up, all the threads tighten together.
Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. I like to use wet barrel torque so there is less galling of the threads.
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More important than the torque, <span style="font-weight: bold">which is still very important</span>, is the accuracy of the threads. </div></div>
In what way are you saying torque is important? Does it need to fall into a specific range? This thread is asking about "barrel torque" and while your post agrees that it is "very important", it does not address his question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. </div></div>
50-100 ft/lb is a pretty wide range. How did you determine that this range is "nominal"?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Terry
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More important than the torque, <span style="font-weight: bold">which is still very important</span>, is the accuracy of the threads. </div></div>
In what way are you saying torque is important? Does it need to fall into a specific range? This thread is asking about "barrel torque" and while your post agrees that it is "very important", it does not address his question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. </div></div>
50-100 ft/lb is a pretty wide range. How did you determine that this range is "nominal"?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Terry
Re: barrel torque
here is where my question stems from
I am thinking about a switch cal rifle using the rem 700 platform. My idea is to do it similar to the old German rifles that had an interrupted thread and pin system.
My thought is to spin the barrel in hand tight then have an indexing hole in the bottom that an allen plug screw could turn into. What I'm trying to do is have a switch cal that I can change without removing the stock and with the use of very few tools.
My thought is a reinforcement to the bottom of the receiver that is drilled and tapped. spin barrel in drill smaller hole in barrel using a med length allen plug screw turn the front so it fits into the hole in the barrel then screw it into the receiver this would prevent the barrel from twisting and return it to same place each time. maybe use a strap wrench to tighten it in just a bit?
thoughts?
here is where my question stems from
I am thinking about a switch cal rifle using the rem 700 platform. My idea is to do it similar to the old German rifles that had an interrupted thread and pin system.
My thought is to spin the barrel in hand tight then have an indexing hole in the bottom that an allen plug screw could turn into. What I'm trying to do is have a switch cal that I can change without removing the stock and with the use of very few tools.
My thought is a reinforcement to the bottom of the receiver that is drilled and tapped. spin barrel in drill smaller hole in barrel using a med length allen plug screw turn the front so it fits into the hole in the barrel then screw it into the receiver this would prevent the barrel from twisting and return it to same place each time. maybe use a strap wrench to tighten it in just a bit?
thoughts?
Re: barrel torque
Do your self a favor and look at the videos demoing how to change barrels on an srs. Im not saying to copy nor am i saying to just get an srs.
in the video there are a couple of screws that need to be loosened and 1 directional bolt that is turned not torqued, there is also a locator(dowel in the recoil lug and a slot in the barrel).
My assumtptions on how this works is the barrel is first located off of the pin, then the directional bolt is a cam that insures the barrel is snug aqainst the reciever then the other bolts are what hold it all in togeather.
just hope this gives you some ideas
Do your self a favor and look at the videos demoing how to change barrels on an srs. Im not saying to copy nor am i saying to just get an srs.
in the video there are a couple of screws that need to be loosened and 1 directional bolt that is turned not torqued, there is also a locator(dowel in the recoil lug and a slot in the barrel).
My assumtptions on how this works is the barrel is first located off of the pin, then the directional bolt is a cam that insures the barrel is snug aqainst the reciever then the other bolts are what hold it all in togeather.
just hope this gives you some ideas
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More important than the torque, <span style="font-weight: bold">which is still very important</span>, is the accuracy of the threads. </div></div>
In what way are you saying torque is important? Does it need to fall into a specific range? This thread is asking about "barrel torque" and while your post agrees that it is "very important", it does not address his question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. </div></div>
50-100 ft/lb is a pretty wide range. How did you determine that this range is "nominal"?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Terry</div></div>
First, I got the 50-100 from www.6mmBR.com I then further researched it by looking it up in my Machinists handbook, 28th edition. I found the tenon diameter and 16 TPI threads falls within that range. That's just to give it a 'nominal' or generic range of numbers. Of course it depends on what steel you use as well. I'm surprised you have no comment on the wet torque?
Personally, I would start at 50, shoot it, and torque upwards until you felt the rifle was shooting it's best. Although with highly accurate class III threads you could probably go as low as 10 ft. lbs.
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
So what's your idea of proper torque for a/any barrel?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More important than the torque, <span style="font-weight: bold">which is still very important</span>, is the accuracy of the threads. </div></div>
In what way are you saying torque is important? Does it need to fall into a specific range? This thread is asking about "barrel torque" and while your post agrees that it is "very important", it does not address his question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. </div></div>
50-100 ft/lb is a pretty wide range. How did you determine that this range is "nominal"?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Terry</div></div>
First, I got the 50-100 from www.6mmBR.com I then further researched it by looking it up in my Machinists handbook, 28th edition. I found the tenon diameter and 16 TPI threads falls within that range. That's just to give it a 'nominal' or generic range of numbers. Of course it depends on what steel you use as well. I'm surprised you have no comment on the wet torque?
Personally, I would start at 50, shoot it, and torque upwards until you felt the rifle was shooting it's best. Although with highly accurate class III threads you could probably go as low as 10 ft. lbs.
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
So what's your idea of proper torque for a/any barrel?
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bulldog896</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is where my question stems from
I am thinking about a switch cal rifle using the rem 700 platform. My idea is to do it similar to the old German rifles that had an interrupted thread and pin system.
My thought is to spin the barrel in hand tight then have an indexing hole in the bottom that an allen plug screw could turn into. What I'm trying to do is have a switch cal that I can change without removing the stock and with the use of very few tools.
My thought is a reinforcement to the bottom of the receiver that is drilled and tapped. spin barrel in drill smaller hole in barrel using a med length allen plug screw turn the front so it fits into the hole in the barrel then screw it into the receiver this would prevent the barrel from twisting and return it to same place each time. maybe use a strap wrench to tighten it in just a bit?
thoughts? </div></div>
A good example of that is the early Savage 99's. I have one in .250-3000 that does almost exactly what you are talking about. Except instead of a pin there is a keyway with the key integral with the fore-stock that locks the barrel in place. It could do better in the accuracy department as the best I've gotten out of it is about 1.5 MOA.
For an 'off the shelf' example you might look into the Mauser M03's. They not only have a changeable barrel, you can also replace the bolt head. So you can have as much difference as a .458 Win Mag and a .22 Hornet. A more practical example would be a .338 or .300 Mag and a .223 with a .308 based cartridge in between. The rifles run around $2500 and each barrel/bolt head change runs about another $1200. Most common calibers are stocked.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
The Mauser M03 system does have an internal magazine system that allows a .22 Hornet or .223 mag to fit inside the box of the bigger magnums. It is a typical short, blind mag system that only holds 4-6 rounds. To my knowledge they do not make a tactical stock configuration or a high capacity box mag.
To get either of those you would be best served to get a 700/post '64 70 action and get the stock you want and have it modified for both the split system barrel change and the high cap magazine. </span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bulldog896</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is where my question stems from
I am thinking about a switch cal rifle using the rem 700 platform. My idea is to do it similar to the old German rifles that had an interrupted thread and pin system.
My thought is to spin the barrel in hand tight then have an indexing hole in the bottom that an allen plug screw could turn into. What I'm trying to do is have a switch cal that I can change without removing the stock and with the use of very few tools.
My thought is a reinforcement to the bottom of the receiver that is drilled and tapped. spin barrel in drill smaller hole in barrel using a med length allen plug screw turn the front so it fits into the hole in the barrel then screw it into the receiver this would prevent the barrel from twisting and return it to same place each time. maybe use a strap wrench to tighten it in just a bit?
thoughts? </div></div>
A good example of that is the early Savage 99's. I have one in .250-3000 that does almost exactly what you are talking about. Except instead of a pin there is a keyway with the key integral with the fore-stock that locks the barrel in place. It could do better in the accuracy department as the best I've gotten out of it is about 1.5 MOA.
For an 'off the shelf' example you might look into the Mauser M03's. They not only have a changeable barrel, you can also replace the bolt head. So you can have as much difference as a .458 Win Mag and a .22 Hornet. A more practical example would be a .338 or .300 Mag and a .223 with a .308 based cartridge in between. The rifles run around $2500 and each barrel/bolt head change runs about another $1200. Most common calibers are stocked.
<span style="color: #3333FF">Edit:
The Mauser M03 system does have an internal magazine system that allows a .22 Hornet or .223 mag to fit inside the box of the bigger magnums. It is a typical short, blind mag system that only holds 4-6 rounds. To my knowledge they do not make a tactical stock configuration or a high capacity box mag.
To get either of those you would be best served to get a 700/post '64 70 action and get the stock you want and have it modified for both the split system barrel change and the high cap magazine. </span>
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?
Re: barrel torque
Sandwarrior,
The Machinist's Handbook and your aircraft mechanic manuals all reference torques that are spec'd to hold something together, . . period. They give numbers for best possible strength. None of which have anything to do with accuracy of a barrel.
Considering the relative lack of shear and tensile strain on a rifle barrel, my opinion is that the upper end of your nominal range can be a bit much. Also consider that while a rifle barrel is threaded, it is not used as a fastener to hold other parts in place. Different animal.
Secondly, typical 416 SS barrel steel is very, very soft compared to production bolts and fasteners that you reference.
Consider this: Thread two barrels 1 1/16x16. Give one of them a 1.250" breech diameter and the other a 1.100" breech diameter. Then look at and measure the amount of surface remaining on the shoulder of the teneon that must come in contact with the recoil lug or receiver face. All of your torque must be concentrated on this one surface and the diameter of the breech is directly related to that surface.
If you torque both of those barrels against a receiver face to a 100 ft./lb spec, the 1.100" breech diameter will exhibit a compression at the shoulder of the threaded tenon. This compression is enough to change the headspace on a barrel. If that barrel is one of several on a switch barrel rifle and repeatedly goes on and off, the chamber will eventually become out of spec due to distortion caused by the compression of that shoulder. While that is a pretty good range of breech diameter, it still can happen with diameters in between. Why doesn't any of the data address torque ranges for different shoulder contact area? It does make a difference, so I think the data ranges should reflect that if someone is going to put that out for public consumption.
While I have the utmost respect for most of the contributors at 6mmBr.com, it must be remembered that anything posted on the internet (including my own posts here) have to be read with caution. Context and specifics are easy to get lost in the presentation. I would like to know who and how they came up with that number range and did it correlate to accuracy?
I didn't think I should comment on any wet vs. dry technique. I have had several barrels and actions of the years sent to me with ruined threads where the smith or person seized the barrel and action together. That wasn't the OP's question.
I guess my point is that if the rifle is built properly, it should not be temperamental to the point of having to repeat an exact barrel torque. In my opinion ditto on stock bolts. Even temperature variations can effect the relationship between two parts.
I have two very nice torque wrenches in my shop. When asked by a customer to torque to a specific number, I can and do. Otherwise, I rarely use a torque wrench when assembling barrels to actions. Some may say this is a sign of a sloppy builder. I say just the opposite. If the threads and surfaces are produced correctly onto quality components, they should perform well without having to be tweaked to the last in/lb.
I can and have taken my rifle completely down. Scope off my Surgeon action (left rings on the scope), stock removed, barrel off the receiver and trigger out of the receiver. Reassemble everything, take it out to the bench and be within 1 MOA of my original zero before teardown. Accuracy is still there with the same load and all that is without a torque wrench.
One of my rifles was sent by its owner to a big name tactical rifle shop to have the muzzle threaded. That shop actually called me and said my barrel broke loose from the receiver at only about 45-50 ft./lb. They were worried that I let it go out of the shop without proper??? torque. I had to laugh. I contacted the owner and questioned the performance of the rifle. He said the rifle had about 1,650 rounds through it and it was extremely consistent and accurate.
I wasn't trying to question your background, breeding or manhood. I also was not trying to be an authority on this topic because I do not consider myself an expert. My reason for questioning your post was because you offered some very generic information about threads and did not address bulldog's question.
--------------------
Bulldog,
My opinion is that the torque should be sufficient to keep the barrel's relation to the receiver constant under all circumstances that type rifle may be asked to endure. It is my opinion that torque does not have to be in a specific range to have an accurate rifle if all other surfaces, mating and contact points are correct. Exact torque is not important as long as the barrel to receiver relationship does not change. It is my opinion that this relationship can be established and maintained without going to 100 ft./lb. on my rifles.
Sandwarrior,
The Machinist's Handbook and your aircraft mechanic manuals all reference torques that are spec'd to hold something together, . . period. They give numbers for best possible strength. None of which have anything to do with accuracy of a barrel.
Considering the relative lack of shear and tensile strain on a rifle barrel, my opinion is that the upper end of your nominal range can be a bit much. Also consider that while a rifle barrel is threaded, it is not used as a fastener to hold other parts in place. Different animal.
Secondly, typical 416 SS barrel steel is very, very soft compared to production bolts and fasteners that you reference.
Consider this: Thread two barrels 1 1/16x16. Give one of them a 1.250" breech diameter and the other a 1.100" breech diameter. Then look at and measure the amount of surface remaining on the shoulder of the teneon that must come in contact with the recoil lug or receiver face. All of your torque must be concentrated on this one surface and the diameter of the breech is directly related to that surface.
If you torque both of those barrels against a receiver face to a 100 ft./lb spec, the 1.100" breech diameter will exhibit a compression at the shoulder of the threaded tenon. This compression is enough to change the headspace on a barrel. If that barrel is one of several on a switch barrel rifle and repeatedly goes on and off, the chamber will eventually become out of spec due to distortion caused by the compression of that shoulder. While that is a pretty good range of breech diameter, it still can happen with diameters in between. Why doesn't any of the data address torque ranges for different shoulder contact area? It does make a difference, so I think the data ranges should reflect that if someone is going to put that out for public consumption.
While I have the utmost respect for most of the contributors at 6mmBr.com, it must be remembered that anything posted on the internet (including my own posts here) have to be read with caution. Context and specifics are easy to get lost in the presentation. I would like to know who and how they came up with that number range and did it correlate to accuracy?
I didn't think I should comment on any wet vs. dry technique. I have had several barrels and actions of the years sent to me with ruined threads where the smith or person seized the barrel and action together. That wasn't the OP's question.
I guess my point is that if the rifle is built properly, it should not be temperamental to the point of having to repeat an exact barrel torque. In my opinion ditto on stock bolts. Even temperature variations can effect the relationship between two parts.
I have two very nice torque wrenches in my shop. When asked by a customer to torque to a specific number, I can and do. Otherwise, I rarely use a torque wrench when assembling barrels to actions. Some may say this is a sign of a sloppy builder. I say just the opposite. If the threads and surfaces are produced correctly onto quality components, they should perform well without having to be tweaked to the last in/lb.
I can and have taken my rifle completely down. Scope off my Surgeon action (left rings on the scope), stock removed, barrel off the receiver and trigger out of the receiver. Reassemble everything, take it out to the bench and be within 1 MOA of my original zero before teardown. Accuracy is still there with the same load and all that is without a torque wrench.
One of my rifles was sent by its owner to a big name tactical rifle shop to have the muzzle threaded. That shop actually called me and said my barrel broke loose from the receiver at only about 45-50 ft./lb. They were worried that I let it go out of the shop without proper??? torque. I had to laugh. I contacted the owner and questioned the performance of the rifle. He said the rifle had about 1,650 rounds through it and it was extremely consistent and accurate.
I wasn't trying to question your background, breeding or manhood. I also was not trying to be an authority on this topic because I do not consider myself an expert. My reason for questioning your post was because you offered some very generic information about threads and did not address bulldog's question.
--------------------
Bulldog,
My opinion is that the torque should be sufficient to keep the barrel's relation to the receiver constant under all circumstances that type rifle may be asked to endure. It is my opinion that torque does not have to be in a specific range to have an accurate rifle if all other surfaces, mating and contact points are correct. Exact torque is not important as long as the barrel to receiver relationship does not change. It is my opinion that this relationship can be established and maintained without going to 100 ft./lb. on my rifles.
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?</div></div>
Prop bolts...lots of harmonics there. But if you think torque isn't important, do tell my why you may know more about proper torque than I do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?</div></div>
Prop bolts...lots of harmonics there. But if you think torque isn't important, do tell my why you may know more about proper torque than I do.
Re: barrel torque
Can a barrel "self tighten"? Can a right hand twist barrel have enough force from bullets going down to "tighten" the barrel further into the threads of the reciever, and could a barrel be untighted from a left hand twist, theoreticly speaking? If any of that was possible it could affect accuracy no?
Can a barrel "self tighten"? Can a right hand twist barrel have enough force from bullets going down to "tighten" the barrel further into the threads of the reciever, and could a barrel be untighted from a left hand twist, theoreticly speaking? If any of that was possible it could affect accuracy no?
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior,
The Machinist's Handbook and your aircraft mechanic manuals all reference torques that are spec'd to hold something together, . . period. They give numbers for best possible strength. None of which have anything to do with accuracy of a barrel.
Considering the relative lack of shear and tensile strain on a rifle barrel, my opinion is that the upper end of your nominal range can be a bit much. Also consider that while a rifle barrel is threaded, it is not used as a fastener to hold other parts in place. Different animal.
Secondly, typical 416 SS barrel steel is very, very soft compared to production bolts and fasteners that you reference.
Consider this: Thread two barrels 1 1/16x16. Give one of them a 1.250" breech diameter and the other a 1.100" breech diameter. Then look at and measure the amount of surface remaining on the shoulder of the teneon that must come in contact with the recoil lug or receiver face. All of your torque must be concentrated on this one surface and the diameter of the breech is directly related to that surface.
If you torque both of those barrels against a receiver face to a 100 ft./lb spec, the 1.100" breech diameter will exhibit a compression at the shoulder of the threaded tenon. This compression is enough to change the headspace on a barrel. If that barrel is one of several on a switch barrel rifle and repeatedly goes on and off, the chamber will eventually become out of spec due to distortion caused by the compression of that shoulder. While that is a pretty good range of breech diameter, it still can happen with diameters in between. Why doesn't any of the data address torque ranges for different shoulder contact area? It does make a difference, so I think the data ranges should reflect that if someone is going to put that out for public consumption.
While I have the utmost respect for most of the contributors at 6mmBr.com, it must be remembered that anything posted on the internet (including my own posts here) have to be read with caution. Context and specifics are easy to get lost in the presentation. I would like to know who and how they came up with that number range and did it correlate to accuracy?
I didn't think I should comment on any wet vs. dry technique. I have had several barrels and actions of the years sent to me with ruined threads where the smith or person seized the barrel and action together. That wasn't the OP's question.
I guess my point is that if the rifle is built properly, it should not be temperamental to the point of having to repeat an exact barrel torque. In my opinion ditto on stock bolts. Even temperature variations can effect the relationship between two parts.
I have two very nice torque wrenches in my shop. When asked by a customer to torque to a specific number, I can and do. Otherwise, I rarely use a torque wrench when assembling barrels to actions. Some may say this is a sign of a sloppy builder. I say just the opposite. If the threads and surfaces are produced correctly onto quality components, they should perform well without having to be tweaked to the last in/lb.
I can and have taken my rifle completely down. Scope off my Surgeon action (left rings on the scope), stock removed, barrel off the receiver and trigger out of the receiver. Reassemble everything, take it out to the bench and be within 1 MOA of my original zero before teardown. Accuracy is still there with the same load and all that is without a torque wrench.
One of my rifles was sent by its owner to a big name tactical rifle shop to have the muzzle threaded. That shop actually called me and said my barrel broke loose from the receiver at only about 45-50 ft./lb. They were worried that I let it go out of the shop without proper??? torque. I had to laugh. I contacted the owner and questioned the performance of the rifle. He said the rifle had about 1,650 rounds through it and it was extremely consistent and accurate.
I wasn't trying to question your background, breeding or manhood. I also was not trying to be an authority on this topic because I do not consider myself an expert. My reason for questioning your post was because you offered some very generic information about threads and did not address bulldog's question.
--------------------
Bulldog,
My opinion is that the torque should be sufficient to keep the barrel's relation to the receiver constant under all circumstances that type rifle may be asked to endure. It is my opinion that torque does not have to be in a specific range to have an accurate rifle if all other surfaces, mating and contact points are correct. Exact torque is not important as long as the barrel to receiver relationship does not change. It is my opinion that this relationship can be established and maintained without going to 100 ft./lb. on my rifles. </div></div>
Terry,
Thank you for the response. Yes, 100 ft. lbs. would be a bit excessive. And, yes I agree with you that it would deform either the face of the barrel or receiver. I didn't take that into account. However, I did recommend starting at the lowest reasonable torque and working upward.
FWIW, I think your description says pretty much what I meant to say in that the accuracy of the threads is a huge factor. I should have also said accuracy of the faces to one another, but I didn't. As you explained, and I agree, the machining accuracy is first and foremost. The better those surfaces mate the less torque is going to be required as all surfaces are holding something. The reason I like using wet torque is to reduce galling. AT whatever torque range you dry torque there is more galling. Wet torque has the disadvantage of not always being effective in lighter applications. While it wasn't the OP's original question I do think it's a factor that could be addressed. I do agree with you that quite often someone will get on lubricated threads and go, "Hey, this is easy." and proceed to take threads past their strength limits.
Also, most AN and MS hardware (aviation standard) probably isn't harder than your 416S. It's 4130 steel annealed so there's a little bit of give to it. The really hard bolts are NAS which are standard 4130 but frequently are made of harder stuff. They tend to be the specialty bolts used in various places throughout the engines and airframe. The AN and MS run somewhere between a coarse threaded grade 3 and grade 5 bolt. The strength comes from the fine thread standard (more surface area). But, again, that's pretty much the principle you talk about.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sandwarrior,
The Machinist's Handbook and your aircraft mechanic manuals all reference torques that are spec'd to hold something together, . . period. They give numbers for best possible strength. None of which have anything to do with accuracy of a barrel.
Considering the relative lack of shear and tensile strain on a rifle barrel, my opinion is that the upper end of your nominal range can be a bit much. Also consider that while a rifle barrel is threaded, it is not used as a fastener to hold other parts in place. Different animal.
Secondly, typical 416 SS barrel steel is very, very soft compared to production bolts and fasteners that you reference.
Consider this: Thread two barrels 1 1/16x16. Give one of them a 1.250" breech diameter and the other a 1.100" breech diameter. Then look at and measure the amount of surface remaining on the shoulder of the teneon that must come in contact with the recoil lug or receiver face. All of your torque must be concentrated on this one surface and the diameter of the breech is directly related to that surface.
If you torque both of those barrels against a receiver face to a 100 ft./lb spec, the 1.100" breech diameter will exhibit a compression at the shoulder of the threaded tenon. This compression is enough to change the headspace on a barrel. If that barrel is one of several on a switch barrel rifle and repeatedly goes on and off, the chamber will eventually become out of spec due to distortion caused by the compression of that shoulder. While that is a pretty good range of breech diameter, it still can happen with diameters in between. Why doesn't any of the data address torque ranges for different shoulder contact area? It does make a difference, so I think the data ranges should reflect that if someone is going to put that out for public consumption.
While I have the utmost respect for most of the contributors at 6mmBr.com, it must be remembered that anything posted on the internet (including my own posts here) have to be read with caution. Context and specifics are easy to get lost in the presentation. I would like to know who and how they came up with that number range and did it correlate to accuracy?
I didn't think I should comment on any wet vs. dry technique. I have had several barrels and actions of the years sent to me with ruined threads where the smith or person seized the barrel and action together. That wasn't the OP's question.
I guess my point is that if the rifle is built properly, it should not be temperamental to the point of having to repeat an exact barrel torque. In my opinion ditto on stock bolts. Even temperature variations can effect the relationship between two parts.
I have two very nice torque wrenches in my shop. When asked by a customer to torque to a specific number, I can and do. Otherwise, I rarely use a torque wrench when assembling barrels to actions. Some may say this is a sign of a sloppy builder. I say just the opposite. If the threads and surfaces are produced correctly onto quality components, they should perform well without having to be tweaked to the last in/lb.
I can and have taken my rifle completely down. Scope off my Surgeon action (left rings on the scope), stock removed, barrel off the receiver and trigger out of the receiver. Reassemble everything, take it out to the bench and be within 1 MOA of my original zero before teardown. Accuracy is still there with the same load and all that is without a torque wrench.
One of my rifles was sent by its owner to a big name tactical rifle shop to have the muzzle threaded. That shop actually called me and said my barrel broke loose from the receiver at only about 45-50 ft./lb. They were worried that I let it go out of the shop without proper??? torque. I had to laugh. I contacted the owner and questioned the performance of the rifle. He said the rifle had about 1,650 rounds through it and it was extremely consistent and accurate.
I wasn't trying to question your background, breeding or manhood. I also was not trying to be an authority on this topic because I do not consider myself an expert. My reason for questioning your post was because you offered some very generic information about threads and did not address bulldog's question.
--------------------
Bulldog,
My opinion is that the torque should be sufficient to keep the barrel's relation to the receiver constant under all circumstances that type rifle may be asked to endure. It is my opinion that torque does not have to be in a specific range to have an accurate rifle if all other surfaces, mating and contact points are correct. Exact torque is not important as long as the barrel to receiver relationship does not change. It is my opinion that this relationship can be established and maintained without going to 100 ft./lb. on my rifles. </div></div>
Terry,
Thank you for the response. Yes, 100 ft. lbs. would be a bit excessive. And, yes I agree with you that it would deform either the face of the barrel or receiver. I didn't take that into account. However, I did recommend starting at the lowest reasonable torque and working upward.
FWIW, I think your description says pretty much what I meant to say in that the accuracy of the threads is a huge factor. I should have also said accuracy of the faces to one another, but I didn't. As you explained, and I agree, the machining accuracy is first and foremost. The better those surfaces mate the less torque is going to be required as all surfaces are holding something. The reason I like using wet torque is to reduce galling. AT whatever torque range you dry torque there is more galling. Wet torque has the disadvantage of not always being effective in lighter applications. While it wasn't the OP's original question I do think it's a factor that could be addressed. I do agree with you that quite often someone will get on lubricated threads and go, "Hey, this is easy." and proceed to take threads past their strength limits.
Also, most AN and MS hardware (aviation standard) probably isn't harder than your 416S. It's 4130 steel annealed so there's a little bit of give to it. The really hard bolts are NAS which are standard 4130 but frequently are made of harder stuff. They tend to be the specialty bolts used in various places throughout the engines and airframe. The AN and MS run somewhere between a coarse threaded grade 3 and grade 5 bolt. The strength comes from the fine thread standard (more surface area). But, again, that's pretty much the principle you talk about.
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?</div></div>
Prop bolts...lots of harmonics there. But if you think torque isn't important, do tell my why you may know more about proper torque than I do. </div></div>
i am assuming a prop bolt is using the tension of the bolt to create a clamping force which creates friction between the prop and a flange (for lack of better terms since i'm no aircraft mechanic). that friction keeps the prop from spinning on the flange and the tension keeps the prop from pulling away from it. with a prop bolt (and in any critical threaded joint) you want enough torque to create the tension/clamping force needed for the joint but not to the point that the fastener yields.
the threads of a barrel are only there to hold it to the receiver.
i am no engineer or aircraft mechanic and i will not claim to know more about proper torque than anyone. that said, i do think book torque specs for that size thread are irrelevant in a barrel to receiver joint. you are obviously not going to yield the threads (or i sure hope not since you will have distorted both the chamber and receiver long before that happens. you also are not needing the clamping force to hold two parts (other than the fastener itself) together like what a typical threaded joint is used for.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?</div></div>
Prop bolts...lots of harmonics there. But if you think torque isn't important, do tell my why you may know more about proper torque than I do. </div></div>
i am assuming a prop bolt is using the tension of the bolt to create a clamping force which creates friction between the prop and a flange (for lack of better terms since i'm no aircraft mechanic). that friction keeps the prop from spinning on the flange and the tension keeps the prop from pulling away from it. with a prop bolt (and in any critical threaded joint) you want enough torque to create the tension/clamping force needed for the joint but not to the point that the fastener yields.
the threads of a barrel are only there to hold it to the receiver.
i am no engineer or aircraft mechanic and i will not claim to know more about proper torque than anyone. that said, i do think book torque specs for that size thread are irrelevant in a barrel to receiver joint. you are obviously not going to yield the threads (or i sure hope not since you will have distorted both the chamber and receiver long before that happens. you also are not needing the clamping force to hold two parts (other than the fastener itself) together like what a typical threaded joint is used for.
Re: barrel torque
For what it's worth, I have the pleasure of owning one of Terry's rifles. I had him build it as a switch barrel (6.5-08 and 308Win). I've experimented with torques from 50-80 ft-lbs and have not noticed any accuracy difference. I did apply anti-seize on the threads even though Terry already uses microslick on them.
Terry is correct that POI returns to within 1 MOA when replacing a barrel (at least with his rifles). The Surgeon action does make switching barrels easier since you don't have to account for a separate recoil lug.
--Rootshot
p.s. Terry: With about 2,000 rounds down the 6.5-08 barrel, it still shoots <.5moa if I do my part. I've found that it prefers the 123gr Scenars over the 139gr Scenars for accuracy.
For what it's worth, I have the pleasure of owning one of Terry's rifles. I had him build it as a switch barrel (6.5-08 and 308Win). I've experimented with torques from 50-80 ft-lbs and have not noticed any accuracy difference. I did apply anti-seize on the threads even though Terry already uses microslick on them.
Terry is correct that POI returns to within 1 MOA when replacing a barrel (at least with his rifles). The Surgeon action does make switching barrels easier since you don't have to account for a separate recoil lug.
--Rootshot
p.s. Terry: With about 2,000 rounds down the 6.5-08 barrel, it still shoots <.5moa if I do my part. I've found that it prefers the 123gr Scenars over the 139gr Scenars for accuracy.
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?</div></div>
Prop bolts...lots of harmonics there. But if you think torque isn't important, do tell my why you may know more about proper torque than I do. </div></div>
i am assuming a prop bolt is using the tension of the bolt to create a clamping force which creates friction between the prop and a flange (for lack of better terms since i'm no aircraft mechanic). that friction keeps the prop from spinning on the flange and the tension keeps the prop from pulling away from it. with a prop bolt (and in any critical threaded joint) you want enough torque to create the tension/clamping force needed for the joint but not to the point that the fastener yields.
the threads of a barrel are only there to hold it to the receiver.
i am no engineer or aircraft mechanic and i will not claim to know more about proper torque than anyone. that said, i do think book torque specs for that size thread are irrelevant in a barrel to receiver joint. you are obviously not going to yield the threads (or i sure hope not since you will have distorted both the chamber and receiver long before that happens. you also are not needing the clamping force to hold two parts (other than the fastener itself) together like what a typical threaded joint is used for.</div></div>
The only reason I recommend a relatively higher torque is because of the impulse of the round going off. The harmonics can work the barrel loose. I say can, not will. Just like working up a load the barrel will have a given range where harmonics is bettered by the right torque and worsened either way out of it.
300sniper, I noted where I'd seen your name before. You did that .284 build. You also did the pics step by step of building the 'spider'. That was an awesome thread by the way.
In my Savage 99 there is about 4-5 ft. lbs of torque. But the barrel is held steady by the keyway in the bottom. It comes together firm, but not so firm I can't bring it into place or take it out by using two hands and twisting hard.
So, going back to my original post, my point is that while torque is important, it's not as important as the accuracy of the machining. Which both you and Terry demonstrate consistently. I do not have the ability to shave parts in the .0001"'s yet but I do try. I certainly understand the value in it, though. So, I'll stick with the original intent of my post in that accuracy of machining (not just threads) is the single most important factor. Torque is secondary.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
</div></div>
can you name a threaded fastener on an aircraft that serves the same purpose as the threaded tennon on a rifle barrel? i'm just trying to understand how torque on an aircraft fastener is relevant to the torque on a barrel to receiver joint.
....maybe a spark plug?</div></div>
Prop bolts...lots of harmonics there. But if you think torque isn't important, do tell my why you may know more about proper torque than I do. </div></div>
i am assuming a prop bolt is using the tension of the bolt to create a clamping force which creates friction between the prop and a flange (for lack of better terms since i'm no aircraft mechanic). that friction keeps the prop from spinning on the flange and the tension keeps the prop from pulling away from it. with a prop bolt (and in any critical threaded joint) you want enough torque to create the tension/clamping force needed for the joint but not to the point that the fastener yields.
the threads of a barrel are only there to hold it to the receiver.
i am no engineer or aircraft mechanic and i will not claim to know more about proper torque than anyone. that said, i do think book torque specs for that size thread are irrelevant in a barrel to receiver joint. you are obviously not going to yield the threads (or i sure hope not since you will have distorted both the chamber and receiver long before that happens. you also are not needing the clamping force to hold two parts (other than the fastener itself) together like what a typical threaded joint is used for.</div></div>
The only reason I recommend a relatively higher torque is because of the impulse of the round going off. The harmonics can work the barrel loose. I say can, not will. Just like working up a load the barrel will have a given range where harmonics is bettered by the right torque and worsened either way out of it.
300sniper, I noted where I'd seen your name before. You did that .284 build. You also did the pics step by step of building the 'spider'. That was an awesome thread by the way.
In my Savage 99 there is about 4-5 ft. lbs of torque. But the barrel is held steady by the keyway in the bottom. It comes together firm, but not so firm I can't bring it into place or take it out by using two hands and twisting hard.
So, going back to my original post, my point is that while torque is important, it's not as important as the accuracy of the machining. Which both you and Terry demonstrate consistently. I do not have the ability to shave parts in the .0001"'s yet but I do try. I certainly understand the value in it, though. So, I'll stick with the original intent of my post in that accuracy of machining (not just threads) is the single most important factor. Torque is secondary.
Re: barrel torque
Very interesting topic..Here we have one renowned builder who torques only to around 60ish..recently Surgeon reccommended 100 for their actions which seems reasonable...and then we have another renowned smith on this site who torques his barrels to 230 ft pounds..no bullshit!.
Very interesting topic..Here we have one renowned builder who torques only to around 60ish..recently Surgeon reccommended 100 for their actions which seems reasonable...and then we have another renowned smith on this site who torques his barrels to 230 ft pounds..no bullshit!.
Re: barrel torque
Dont forget the major and minor manufucaturers i can say i know of one that torques to 120lbs for a fact.
Dont forget the major and minor manufucaturers i can say i know of one that torques to 120lbs for a fact.
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More important than the torque, <span style="font-weight: bold">which is still very important</span>, is the accuracy of the threads. </div></div>
In what way are you saying torque is important? Does it need to fall into a specific range? This thread is asking about "barrel torque" and while your post agrees that it is "very important", it does not address his question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. </div></div>
50-100 ft/lb is a pretty wide range. How did you determine that this range is "nominal"?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Terry</div></div>
First, I got the 50-100 from www.6mmBR.com I then further researched it by looking it up in my Machinists handbook, 28th edition. I found the tenon diameter and 16 TPI threads falls within that range. That's just to give it a 'nominal' or generic range of numbers. Of course it depends on what steel you use as well. I'm surprised you have no comment on the wet torque?
Personally, I would start at 50, shoot it, and torque upwards until you felt the rifle was shooting it's best. Although with highly accurate class III threads you could probably go as low as 10 ft. lbs.
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
So what's your idea of proper torque for a/any barrel? </div></div>
you said 16tpi falls in that range. what about 28tpi? should it be tighter or looser than specified?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">More important than the torque, <span style="font-weight: bold">which is still very important</span>, is the accuracy of the threads. </div></div>
In what way are you saying torque is important? Does it need to fall into a specific range? This thread is asking about "barrel torque" and while your post agrees that it is "very important", it does not address his question.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Nominal barrel torque is about 50-100 ft. lbs. </div></div>
50-100 ft/lb is a pretty wide range. How did you determine that this range is "nominal"?
Just curious.
Thanks,
Terry</div></div>
First, I got the 50-100 from www.6mmBR.com I then further researched it by looking it up in my Machinists handbook, 28th edition. I found the tenon diameter and 16 TPI threads falls within that range. That's just to give it a 'nominal' or generic range of numbers. Of course it depends on what steel you use as well. I'm surprised you have no comment on the wet torque?
Personally, I would start at 50, shoot it, and torque upwards until you felt the rifle was shooting it's best. Although with highly accurate class III threads you could probably go as low as 10 ft. lbs.
As far as torque being important, I would have to say my background as an aircraft mechanic leads me to say that. As you may know, many don't, that there are a lot of fasteners in an aircraft that are safetied. Safeties don't do a whole lot of good if the torque isn't right. I mean,you wouldn't want the wings to fall off right?
So what's your idea of proper torque for a/any barrel? </div></div>
you said 16tpi falls in that range. what about 28tpi? should it be tighter or looser than specified?
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/accessories/?module=products&product_id=147 </div></div>
Thank you, learning has occurred.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/accessories/?module=products&product_id=147 </div></div>
Thank you, learning has occurred.
Re: barrel torque
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
you said 16tpi falls in that range. what about 28tpi? should it be tighter or looser than specified?</div></div>
You can go higher. Without looking it up again, (I'm busy tonight) I don't know exactly. I'm with Terry in that I think 100 is really all you need at the top end, if that much.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 42769vette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
you said 16tpi falls in that range. what about 28tpi? should it be tighter or looser than specified?</div></div>
You can go higher. Without looking it up again, (I'm busy tonight) I don't know exactly. I'm with Terry in that I think 100 is really all you need at the top end, if that much.
