Barrel tuner for rimfire elr?

orange

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I’m starting to play around with rimfire elr.
Has anyone tried an adjustable barrel tuner ,like in rimfire bench shooting, to tighten groups up?
 

mpl2353

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I don’t see how it can hurt if you wanted to invest the time and money into it. A popular one is the Starik carbon fiber barrel tuner. It’s been used with a lot of success on positional rifles.
 

justin amateur

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Tuner at extended range with rimfire?
I'd like to see results from that attempt.
From what little time I've spent with a tuner
the use didn't improve results at 200 yards.
Time of flight allows the other variables to affect trajectories
so as to counter any improvement made.
MV spread still needs to be very tight or it will exceed
the limits of compensation produced by the tuner.
 
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JG26_Irish

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About three-four years ago I spent some time with a Mike Ezell PDT tuner on my Remington 540XR tgt rifle. I was not competing in ELR rimfire with it but did shoot groups with it out to 200y. At 50y after an extended tuning session, it did take what was already a very good shooting rifle and improved the groups by about 20-25%. The Ezell tuner contains powdered cadmium in six chambers located around the bore like the chambers of a revolver. The heavy powder in theory cancels out some of the inherent bbl vibrations. The adjustable length of the tuner further tunes the barrel length to reduce harmonic vibration and the two features combined in theory should make the tuner more forgiving and easier to tune to the rifle. It does work, but...

In my experience, it was very ammo specific. If I tuned it to Lapua, then the Eley ammo was not going to shoot very well and visa versa. Tuning took a couple of hours and lots of expensive ammo to get right. The bottom line is that the tuner worked and worked well. No reason to not believe that it would work fine for ELR. The main reason I am not using it now? Twofold. I bought a very accurate Anschutz not long after that and it out performed the tuner equipped Remington by a small margin. I parked the Remington in the safe and it has not been out since. Two years ago while prepping a Savage for PRS matches I removed the tuner from the Remington hoping to fit it to the Savage. Unfortunately the Sav bbl was slightly larger and the Ezel tuner would not fit. It sits atop my safe at the moment.

I am an engineer by trade and the theory behind the Ezell tuner is sound. We use similar techniques to dampen harmonic vibrations using counter weights in other large structures such as sky scrapers, bridges and electric transmission lines. Most of the groups that I posted with the little Remington here on the 6x5 thread were before I installed the tuner. However, if you search you should find a thread about the tuner. I was pretty impressed with it but lacked the budget and patience to keep fooling with it on the Remington. It was a good rifle but I out grew it and never get back to the tuner. It is one of those mods that will not make much difference until your rifle/optic/ammo/shooter combo is capable of shooting about 1/2 moa. One thing to consider is once you stretch out past 100y the wind becomes one of the larger variables and it will overshadow others. Still if you can start with a more accurate overall package, you should have a small advantage even when the wind does blow. Some shooting games do not allow tuners or only allow them in the unlimited or custom rifle class which may put you in a class with the Halls, Turbos, Stiller actions using the Shillein ratchet bbls, etc. Few factory rifles will compete well in that kind of company. Mike makes both clamp on and threaded units. He is easy to work with. I have no business or financial connection to him at all. Just a satisfied customer. The attached pic is a 50y 5-shot group from that rifle. I do not recall what it measured or which ammo I used. It was likely Lapua CX but that was more than a week ago. The holes are not cut clean enough to be Eley. Shot from two sand bags off of a bench on a calm day.

Irish
 

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JG26_Irish

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orange

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Thank you for that insightful response.
That helps alot, it gives me food for thought.
It’s been a long cold Winter which in my case usually leads to overthinking.
 

Lynn Jr

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Tuners work extremely well but they are distance specific.
A tuner set for 50 yards will overcompensate for rounds shot at 200 yards. But it will still be more accurate than a gun without a tuner.
Find your best setting at each distance and use it.
The pictures show Harrell's/Hoehn Stiller and Roger Von Aherns tuners.
 

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Seymour Fish

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https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...pened-tuner-range-report.227953/#post-7393968

This is the url for the old tuner report from 2014. The pic is a 5 shot group at 100y with the tuner attached using Eley black which that rifle did not necessarily prefer. The Rem shot best with Center X or Wolf MX. That group measured about 1/4" at 100y. The tuner worked great.
Irish, hope all is going well on your end. Have been mulling over this tuner business for long range awhile now. Have been shooting mid grade ammo or worse with ES about 30, and on a tight budget. Setting a tuner to give a pure vertical group at 50 yds, of 0.2-0.4” is reproducible, with the slower round hitting higher. Running some MV’s through a ballistic solver gives: 50 yds-0.1” vertical for a tune at 100, 50 yds-0.5” vertical for 1.9” vertical at 300 and 5” vertical at 400 and 11.5” vertical at 500. This with ES of 30. ES of 15 would Cut this dramatically, thus 50 yd vertical of 0.25 which is realistically achievable would give Vertical of: 100-.35”, 200-zero, 300-0.95”, 400-2.5”, 500-5.75”. The package to do so would not require a long barrel and a heavy tuner, thus would not need to be unwieldy, based on what I have found lately. Usefulness in PRS competitions would depend on target sizes at distances, and best strategy to maximize points. It might be that 2 separate tuner settings would cover the gamut of distances, and as easily as dialing elevation assuming time-pressure would allow it. Obviously we wish for the holy grail of zero ES in a round that a gun “likes”, but meanwhile perhaps these calculations will be of some use. All the best, Seymour
 

BlastersAreCool

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Itd be cool If someone came up w/ a tunable supressor. One that you could add a lockable section or sleeves even that adjusted the weight up/down...
 

mpl2353

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Itd be cool If someone came up w/ a tunable supressor. One that you could add a lockable section or sleeves even that adjusted the weight up/down...
If you have a trailing locking nut behind the suppressor you can rotate the suppressor in and out along the muzzle threads then tighten it down using the locking nut. It’s the same idea as the Tubb ATR muzzle brake.
 
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chevy_man

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I have only 1 issue with all these tuners... Why can't anyone make one that simply threads onto 1/2-28 and adjusts from there? With the popularity of threaded barrels (and now especially in the mid range market where tuning should really help) I can't believe nobody has capitalized on it.


I'll admit I only spent about 30 minutes searching before I gave up. Just kept getting references back to the same 4 tuners that are all clamp-on bore to fit.
 
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skotydontno

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I have only 1 issue with all these tuners... Why can't anyone make one that simply threads onto 1/2-28 and adjusts from there? With the popularity of threaded barrels (and now especially in the mid range market where tuning should really help) I can't believe nobody has capitalized on it.


I'll admit I only spent about 30 minutes searching before I gave up. Just kept getting references back to the same 4 tuners that are all clamp-on bore to fit.
Aaron Hipp releases one just in the last month. I bought one for my 5/8x24 and will soon get one for my 1/2x28
 

Gjmen22

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I have only 1 issue with all these tuners... Why can't anyone make one that simply threads onto 1/2-28 and adjusts from there? With the popularity of threaded barrels (and now especially in the mid range market where tuning should really help) I can't believe nobody has capitalized on it.


I'll admit I only spent about 30 minutes searching before I gave up. Just kept getting references back to the same 4 tuners that are all clamp-on bore to fit.
 

chevy_man

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or if you want something a bit easier to clean...


Thanks. I just can't bring myself to run a brake. Was looking for their clamp-on model with threads basically.

Guess maybe I should call and see if they can pull one before it hits the slotting saw and just thread it myself.
 

littlepod

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Is it true that the tuners are tuned to specific ranges? I was considering a tuner, but I'm shooting at targets from 25-400yards.
 

orkan

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Is it true that the tuners are tuned to specific ranges? I was considering a tuner, but I'm shooting at targets from 25-400yards.
It "might" be true, but I haven't found it to be true on rifles I've worked with as of this moment. Rather, I haven't found a tuner to be a detriment at distance.

The main rimX I've been shooting which shoots consistently in the .2's or better at 50yds... can do this easily at 300yds with tuner. Paint can for scale.



 
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Boltyboi

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Is it true that the tuners are tuned to specific ranges? I was considering a tuner, but I'm shooting at targets from 25-400yards.
Unless I'm given a very solid reason why this is the case, I refuse to believe it. From a physics stand point, the moment the projectile is no longer in contact with the rifle system (harmonics, gas escaping the bore, etc), it is following a balistic arc.

If it is more consistent at 100 yards, it MUST have been consistent at 50 to get there, and correspondingly will be in a more predictable spot at 150.

The only way this could be true is if a tuner somehow imbued some sort of voodoo on the bullet that makes it more accurate up close, but destabilizes it after some range.

I call bullshit.
 

orkan

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Clearly, you must have some impressive and expansive test results to speak with such authority about it. Can you share that data?
 

Tiger_Shilone

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Unless I'm given a very solid reason why this is the case, I refuse to believe it. From a physics stand point, the moment the projectile is no longer in contact with the rifle system (harmonics, gas escaping the bore, etc), it is following a balistic arc.

If it is more consistent at 100 yards, it MUST have been consistent at 50 to get there, and correspondingly will be in a more predictable spot at 150.

The only way this could be true is if a tuner somehow imbued some sort of voodoo on the bullet that makes it more accurate up close, but destabilizes it after some range.

I call bullshit.
Barrel harmonics are real, both in centerfire and rimfire. All the wiggly barrel slides a few posts prior do affect bullet trajectory. Adjusting for 22lr caliber with it's huge MV spreads with a tuner is an interesting experiment I've had fun and frustration with the past few years. Tuners do work, verification of work here at post #501 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6x5-thread-v4-0-new-1-1-20.6253073/page-11#post-7801509

WHAT A TUNER DOES.... It is possible to "Tune" a rifle barrel so that where it is pointing at bullet exit time will compensate for small variations of muzzle velocity. In the "tuned" condition the slower bullets are launched at a slightly higher angle than the faster bullets. The difference in launch angle can allow the slower bullets to hit the target at the same elevation as the faster bullets. That is the simple explanation and now the details.
From Varmint al's website on the 22 tuner page http://www.varmintal.comwww.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

TUNING & DISTANCE....
Here is a chart that shows the 100 yard trajectory of a 22LR 40 gr bullets with a BC of 0.128 and an average muzzle velocity of 1050 fps. It is assumed that the actual velocity varies from 1040 to 1060 fps with the vertical tuned out. The first case (bottom curves) is where the vertical is tuned out at 50 yards. In this case the vertical at 100 yards is 7.79-7.46 or 0.33”. The rifle is not in tune for 100 yards.


In the second case the vertical is tuned out at 100 yards. But in this case the vertical at 50 yards is 3.89-3.73 or 0.16”.
Anyone can calculate this for their rifle & ammo using free ballistic software. For small variations is muzzle velocity a 22LR rifle in tune at 50 yards is NOT in tune at 100 yards.
22lr-velocity-variation.png
 

Boltyboi

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Barrel harmonics are real, both in centerfire and rimfire. All the wiggly barrel slides a few posts prior do affect bullet trajectory. Adjusting for 22lr caliber with it's huge MV spreads with a tuner is an interesting experiment I've had fun and frustration with the past few years. Tuners do work, verification of work here at post #501 https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6x5-thread-v4-0-new-1-1-20.6253073/page-11#post-7801509



From Varmint al's website on the 22 tuner page http://www.varmintal.comwww.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm



View attachment 7362560
Huh. Well very cool, I stand corrected.
 

orkan

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Remember not to cut off your nose to spite your face, however.

In my experience, having a tuner is required for getting that 50yd performance the very best. The performance at 100, 200, and 300yds with that same tuner setting is almost always better than without a tuner.
 
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Seymour Fish

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Unless I'm given a very solid reason why this is the case, I refuse to believe it. From a physics stand point, the moment the projectile is no longer in contact with the rifle system (harmonics, gas escaping the bore, etc), it is following a balistic arc.

If it is more consistent at 100 yards, it MUST have been consistent at 50 to get there, and correspondingly will be in a more predictable spot at 150.

The only way this could be true is if a tuner somehow imbued some sort of voodoo on the bullet that makes it more accurate up close, but destabilizes it after some range.

I call bullshit.
You don’t understand the concept of positive compensation. If you wish enlightenment, go to the Varmint Al website
 
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rick137

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Remember not to cut off your nose to spite your face, however.

In my experience, having a tuner is required for getting that 50yd performance the very best. The performance at 100, 200, and 300yds with that same tuner setting is almost always better than without a tuner.
@orkan:

Interesting. Can the exceptions to "better than without a tuner" be predicted?

Rick
 

Boltyboi

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You don’t understand the concept of positive compensation. If you wish enlightenment, go to the Varmint Al website
Thanks for the info. I misunderstood a tuner as functioning by making sure the bullets left in a smaller 3d cone of fire, and not as ensuring that slow projections are shot at a higher arc than the faster ones.

So if in understanding this corectly, a tuner set for say 600 yards could overcompensate at 100 by causing the slow projectiles to be too high relative to the fast ones, thereby increasing vertical spread?

Following that logic, if you set your tuner to your closest engagement distance, again say 100, you could be overcompensating inside of that, but outside it would be less ideal that if set for that distance, but still an improvement over a bare muzzle?
 

orkan

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Thanks for the info. I misunderstood a tuner as functioning by making sure the bullets left in a smaller 3d cone of fire, and not as ensuring that slow projections are shot at a higher arc than the faster ones.

So if in understanding this corectly, a tuner set for say 600 yards could overcompensate at 100 by causing the slow projectiles to be too high relative to the fast ones, thereby increasing vertical spread?

Following that logic, if you set your tuner to your closest engagement distance, again say 100, you could be overcompensating inside of that, but outside it would be less ideal that if set for that distance, but still an improvement over a bare muzzle?
Seems a plausible explanation.
 

Tiger_Shilone

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Thanks for the info. I misunderstood a tuner as functioning by making sure the bullets left in a smaller 3d cone of fire, and not as ensuring that slow projections are shot at a higher arc than the faster ones.

So if in understanding this corectly, a tuner set for say 600 yards could overcompensate at 100 by causing the slow projectiles to be too high relative to the fast ones, thereby increasing vertical spread?

Following that logic, if you set your tuner to your closest engagement distance, again say 100, you could be overcompensating inside of that, but outside it would be less ideal that if set for that distance, but still an improvement over a bare muzzle?

YES, you are getting it! :D This is also an explanation of sometimes why a rifle will group better at long ranges vs shorter ranges. Also why some rifles shoot better with a can on them, or maybe worse. A tuner will help you vertically group very small at one select range, but will be out of tune at all other ranges so you have to decide if it is helpful to your situation or not. We don't have the option of variable powder load ladder tuning in rimfire, all we can do is ammunition lot test, and tune with barrel weights.

You now understand I am tuning for vertical dispersion with the testing I'm using. I've also seen groups tighten and loosen up while testing the tuner, they will literally walk around the POA as the weight is moved into different positions. So yes, a smaller or larger 3D cone of fire is also possible. Just so happens that my smallest groups were also my least vertical spread so everything came into the zone for that session3.

Any weight change, IE: thread protector, brake, flash hider, suppressor, tuner, magneto speed, etc etc is going to affect your barrel in some manner
 

Boltyboi

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How much accuracy gain is there in .22? Honestly, this seems like way more effort than it is worth TO ME... that said, I typically just shoot ccisv, am happy with the half inch ish groups I get with it, and use it to train myself more than to try and chase tiny groups.

That or I'm playing around with it at long, and carried ranges, chasing the wind around generaly having fun with it.

The only reason I want to start shooting better ammo is to get the verticals down, and that's to be able to hold tight enough to play around at range, not really to try and bug eye things. To be quite honest, everyone I know who shoots has been pretty amazed at what this .22 can do as it is lol. My family is a bunch of minute if deer good old boys.

Not to mention, if I'm going through all this effort to nail down the .22 to perfection to chase groupsat a fixed range, spending 15c a pop on centex x... why not shoot the .223? .22 elr is it's own beast with trying to superman the wind, but I'm sure not setting a tuner for 300.

/end rant
 

orkan

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Lots of improvement to be had with a tuner, IF you are shooting small enough to begin with. Taking groups from the .3's and getting consistent .2's with not infrequent .1's is a very big improvement which can typically be seen with tuners. Tuners typically won't make a rifle shooting in the .5's shoot in the .2's.
 

st1650

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Lots of improvement to be had with a tuner, IF you are shooting small enough to begin with. Taking groups from the .3's and getting consistent .2's with not infrequent .1's is a very big improvement which can typically be seen with tuners. Tuners typically won't make a rifle shooting in the .5's shoot in the .2's.
What tuner are you using ?
 

st1650

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How much accuracy gain is there in .22? Honestly, this seems like way more effort than it is worth TO ME... that said, I typically just shoot ccisv, am happy with the half inch ish groups I get with it, and use it to train myself more than to try and chase tiny groups.

That or I'm playing around with it at long, and carried ranges, chasing the wind around generaly having fun with it.

The only reason I want to start shooting better ammo is to get the verticals down, and that's to be able to hold tight enough to play around at range, not really to try and bug eye things. To be quite honest, everyone I know who shoots has been pretty amazed at what this .22 can do as it is lol. My family is a bunch of minute if deer good old boys.

Not to mention, if I'm going through all this effort to nail down the .22 to perfection to chase groupsat a fixed range, spending 15c a pop on centex x... why not shoot the .223? .22 elr is it's own beast with trying to superman the wind, but I'm sure not setting a tuner for 300.

/end rant
Lot of us don't have access to ranges much further than 400 yards so it's a way to create a challenge and practice wind reading.
 

st1650

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Anyone tried the kinetic solution on a rimfire ? Seems like an interesting design.
 

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One thing I like about my tuner is that, so far, I've tried 5 different brands of 22 ammo, and all of them, at times, will shoot into one ragged hole with all bullets holes touching to some that shoot, sometimes, into a virtual one-hole group.
Fliers prevent doing it every time out, of course.

I've never seen a standard barrel that would shoot 5 different brands as well as my barrel with a tuner does.
Some of you guys probably have but I haven't.
Unless the ammo is bad, I would expect the same results from any other brands of ammo I try in the future.
 

Midwestside

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Anyone tried the kinetic solution on a rimfire ? Seems like an interesting design.

Post #50, I think they’ll be popular.