Barrel Tuners in ELR

skkeeter

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I've got (2) orders for 375 Cheytac's right now and possibly 3 more if they drop off their deposits soon. My question is who's using barrel tuners on their ELR rigs? I'd like to hear some opinions on them. I was looking at the Warner tool version the other day that got my gears turning.
 

badassgunworks

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I build ELR tuner brakes. I am the first and original designer of the horizontal Port design tuner break. And also the only person who makes Turner brakes up to 2 in in diameter.
 

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badassgunworks

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All of my tuner brakes are made to order Barrel caliber and cartridge specific. Available thread size. 5/8 x 24, 3/4 x 24, 7/8 x24, 1" x14, 1"x20, 1"x 24
 
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badassgunworks

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Regardless of what the so-called experts have stated tuners do work. 20 plus years of benchrest and f class has proven that .You would have to be i a retard state otherwise.
 
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brianf

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Regardless of what the so-called experts have stated tuners do work. 20 plus years of benchrest and f class has proven that .You would have to be i a retard state otherwise.
question, because there are differing opinions (like most things)

when a tuner is "tuned" at 100 yards for best accuracy

does that tuner setting hold true for best accuracy at 1500 yards

or are there segments/sections (just examples)
1--500
600-1300
1500-2000

that the tuner has to be adjusted for

thanks
 

badassgunworks

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question, because there are differing opinions (like most things)

when a tuner is "tuned" at 100 yards for best accuracy

does that tuner setting hold true for best accuracy at 1500 yards

or are there segments/sections (just examples)
1--500
600-1300
1500-2000

that the tuner has to be adjusted for

thanks
So how a tuner works is by shifting weight to cansel hormonic vibrations that are produced in your barrel from a fired round.. So if hormonic vibrations are tamed from adjusting the tuner that shows up at 100 yards it will be better at distance. Of corse adjusting a tuner for or at 500 to 750 yards will give you the ability to see a more presice adjusted measurement due to extrapolated distance so once most if not all hormonics are canseled and finely tuned its good for all distances as a tuner cant effect a bullet in flight once its cleared your barrel.
 

brianf

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Sounds good

that’s what I was thinking as well.

Go out as far as possible before environmentals make everything fuzzy and set it for that distance.

another question:

ambient temperature

Has anyone seen the ambient temp necessitate different tuner settings?

im wondering if the change in velocity from hot to cold (when tuner was set) or vice versus causes issues with the time the bullet is still in the barrel.

thanks
 

THEIS

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  • Sounds good

    that’s what I was thinking as well.

    Go out as far as possible before environmentals make everything fuzzy and set it for that distance.

    another question:

    ambient temperature

    Has anyone seen the ambient temp necessitate different tuner settings?

    im wondering if the change in velocity from hot to cold (when tuner was set) or vice versus causes issues with the time the bullet is still in the barrel.

    thanks

    Hi,

    I think you would be getting into the point of:

    1. Nobody can shoot the difference in regards to ambient temp vs tuner settings.

    2. Nobody wants to pay the money to testing facilities that have the equipment to scientifically measure such changes.
    A. Would be getting into the density of the barrel alloy based on its' temperatures and how the barrel "flexes" under different temperatures.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
     
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    badassgunworks

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    If you are developing your loads at the flat node where there is little velocity change temperature and barometric pressure will have little effect on standard deviation where extreme elevation changes come into play you can tune and record the second location on your tuner for those changes and record them for future use some of that also has to do with the stability of the powder that you're using
     

    MALLARD

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    temp doesnt matter, maybe if your trying to get the absolute most out of the tuner then ya, but from the worst possible setting to the best the temp is irrelevant(assuming your powder is temp sensitive enough). Truthfully, you dont even need a tuner if you adjust your brake lenght, barrel length, or using shims to an optimum length/varmintal node...but who's gonna do that.

    as far as elr, wind is everything and no muzzle tuning device inadequacy will rekt you as hard as the wind (or es/sd) but you probably knew that
     
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    badassgunworks

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    temp doesnt matter, maybe if your trying to get the absolute most out of the tuner then ya, but from the worst possible setting to the best the temp is irrelevant(assuming your powder is temp sensitive enough). Truthfully, you dont even need a tuner if you adjust your brake lenght, barrel length, or using shims to an optimum length/varmintal node...but who's gonna do that.

    as far as elr, wind is everything and no muzzle tuning device inadequacy will rekt you as hard as the wind (or es/sd) but you probably knew that
    In elr is about eliminating anything and everything that can cause variables when you have wind and everything else it just makes it easy and smart to deal with what you have control over. If you compound all of the other problems along with inadequacies and reading wind which applies to everyone. in the end all adds up.
     

    Blaiz1

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    I'm using an EC tuner on my 300 prc. Once you see someone go through the tuning process and you watch a .75 moa group go down to sub 1/4 moa or smaller group, there is no way you can't believe that they work. Highly recommend using one
    i second that ec tuner
    Eric is awesome
     
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    dieselsmoke

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    I hope someday someone can 'splain to me how moving an arbitrarily chosen weight a few thou, overcomes all 50 other variables inherent in launching an imperfect bullet down an imperfect barrel held onto by an imperfect dude, using an imperfect explosion.

    Maybe it's just me...but I'd love to know how repeatable these are, over long periods of time, using real statistics.
     

    brianf

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    I hope someday someone can 'splain to me how moving an arbitrarily chosen weight a few thou, overcomes all 50 other variables inherent in launching an imperfect bullet down an imperfect barrel held onto by an imperfect dude, using an imperfect explosion.

    Maybe it's just me...but I'd love to know how repeatable these are, over long periods of time, using real statistics.

    i agree, it doesnt "make sense" but think of it from the opposite direction

    how does moving the bullet in or out of the case a "few thou"...overcome the other 50 variables
     
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    dieselsmoke

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    i agree, it doesnt "make sense" but think of it from the opposite direction

    how does moving the bullet in or out of the case a "few thou"...overcome the other 50 variables

    Same thing. Is it statistical? I'm not casting shade.....just a metallurgist & process engineer who has to prove what I do with stats on the daily, over long periods of time.

    I guess when I get my junk sorted out...I should lead by example...

    The reason it bugs me is that I was watching some F-class videos. Guy said his gun wasn't grouping for him so he moved his tuner 2 clicks and it came back to him. How'd he know which direction? Makes no sense to me. At that level, taping a penny to the barrel could "ruin" a gun. Or maybe make it perfect? Who knows.
     

    badassgunworks

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    When you understand how harmonic vibration cancellation works then you won't question how a tuner works. Very simple mechanics laws of physics don't lie. If you disagree go jump off of a three-story building and see how it works for you. The fact that you don't understand how they work does not change that they do. It is a scientific fact that is not disputable. Only a fool would say that they don't work. The 50 other variances combined create a consistant issue .that shows up in your specfic built platform barrel length and couture its called vibration... . The objective is to reduce the over all combined issues that shows up on the end of your barrel. A v8 in your truck has lots of moving parts each part has a variances in weight from each other not to mention variances in ignition and combustion in each cylinder. remove the hormonic balancer from your motor and see how that works out for you..
     
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    Diver160651

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    I hope someday someone can 'splain to me how moving an arbitrarily chosen weight a few thou, overcomes all 50 other variables inherent in launching an imperfect bullet down an imperfect barrel held onto by an imperfect dude, using an imperfect explosion.

    Maybe it's just me...but I'd love to know how repeatable these are, over long periods of time, using real statistics.

    Well, look at it this way. many people shooting from bipods are shooting well some 1/4" groups, but many under 1/2". BR and F class guys using front rests and heavy-eared rear bags, tighten that way up once the loads are working well.

    If I did my math example 1/2 way correct, an incline change across something like a 6" 20 MOA rail gives you 1" of POI change at 100 by being .0016" thicker on one side or about .0008" up or down from the center point of that rail. Guys shooting the groups above could absolutely see a change if their groups were an overall 1/4" bigger, correct. If we did the same math for a 26" barrel it be .0072" higher at one end for 1" on target or about .0018" for the 1/4" addition to group size. Realistically the barrel is making that change in lets a far less than 1/2 its length, so a variation of .0009" or less would do the same.

    100y is 3600" =- I could have used MOA 1.047" but why convert only to reconvert to inches of change on target.

    Let's just say my math is 100% wrong. Either way, ever seen anyone put a magneto speed on only to have the gun shoot smaller groups? I had a Remington 6.5CM factory gun I bought as a truck gun. That damn thing would not shoot better than 3/4" with any ammo or shooter, with the magneto speed on it was a 1/2" gun! It was a running joke amongst my buddies to just permanently attach the bayonet.
     
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    JB.IC

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    Well, look at it this way. many people shooting from bipods are shooting well some 1/4" groups, but many under 1/2". BR and F class guys using front rests and heavy-eared rear bags, tighten that way up once the loads are working well.

    If I did my math example 1/2 way correct, an incline change across something like a 6" 20 MOA rail gives you 1" of POI change at 100 by being .0016" thicker on one side or about .0008" up or down from the center point of that rail. Guys shooting the groups above could absolutely see a change if their groups were an overall 1/4" bigger, correct. If we did the same math for a 26" barrel it be .0072" higher at one end for 1" on target or about .0018" for the 1/4" addition to group size. Realistically the barrel is making that change in lets a far less than 1/2 its length, so a variation of .0009" or less would do the same.

    100y is 3600" =- I could have used MOA 1.047" but why convert only to reconvert to inches of change on target.

    Let's just say my math is 100% wrong. Either way, ever seen anyone put a magneto speed on only to have the gun shoot smaller groups? I had a Remington 6.5CM factory gun I bought as a truck gun. That damn thing would not shoot better than 3/4" with any ammo or shooter, with the magneto speed on it was a 1/2" gun! It was a running joke amongst my buddies to just permanently attach the bayonet.
    I’ve seen a similar effect by installing a suppressor. Caused the rifles to shoot much better.
     

    dieselsmoke

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    When you understand how harmonic vibration cancellation works then you won't question how a tuner works. Very simple mechanics laws of physics don't lie. If you disagree go jump off of a three-story building and see how it works for you. The fact that you don't understand how they work does not change that they do. It is a scientific fact that is not disputable. Only a fool would say that they don't work. The 50 other variances combined create a consistant issue .that shows up in your specfic built platform barrel length and couture its called vibration... . The objective is to reduce the over all combined issues that shows up on the end of your barrel. A v8 in your truck has lots of moving parts each part has a variances in weight from each other not to mention variances in ignition and combustion in each cylinder. remove the hormonic balancer from your motor and see how that works out for you..
    This is the same old rhetoric I always hear from people who make parts to sell...

    Do you have even one graph or measurement from a shot with and without a tuner taken with an accelerometer? I bet money you have nothing to post but insults and anecdotal "harmonics" regurgitated crap.

    FWIW I have balanced a V8 crank personally, weighed each part and calculated the bobweight value myself. Using equations and spreadsheets. Then drilled the counterweights. Have you?

    Just post something with real data. That's all I ask. What you have posted is nothing but pure shit.
     

    Bandit320

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    This is the same old rhetoric I always hear from people who make parts to sell...

    Do you have even one graph or measurement from a shot with and without a tuner taken with an accelerometer? I bet money you have nothing to post but insults and anecdotal "harmonics" regurgitated crap.

    FWIW I have balanced a V8 crank personally, weighed each part and calculated the bobweight value myself. Using equations and spreadsheets. Then drilled the counterweights. Have you?

    Just post something with real data. That's all I ask. What you have posted is nothing but pure shit.

    You’re right, they don’t work. Don’t get one.




    Try using google.
     
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    badassgunworks

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    This is the same old rhetoric I always hear from people who make parts to sell...

    Do you have even one graph or measurement from a shot with and without a tuner taken with an accelerometer? I bet money you have nothing to post but insults and anecdotal "harmonics" regurgitated crap.

    FWIW I have balanced a V8 crank personally, weighed each part and calculated the bobweight value myself. Using equations and spreadsheets. Then drilled the counterweights. Have you?

    Just post something with real data. That's all I ask. What you have posted is nothing but pure shit.
    Yes i sure have family has been in the automotive business sence 1934 owned and opetated 7 shops in 4 cities full machine shops built race motors for many years.. truth is i dont care who you think you are. All i hear is all the benchrest shooter and f class shooter are stupid. All the proof i need is that i can take any ones rifle with any one devloping loads and make it shoot a tighter group at 750 yards with a tuner. Then with out one.
     
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    Geno C.

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    Yes i sure have family has been in the automotive business sence 1934 owned and opetated 7 shops in 4 cities full machine shops built race motors for many years.. truth is i dont care who you think you are. All i hear is all the benchrest shooter and f class shooter are stupid. All the proof i need is that i can take any ones rifle with any one devloping loads and make it shoot a tighter group at 750 yards with a tuner. Then with out one.
    Forgot 22lr shooters
     
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    timintx

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    Hi,

    I think you would be getting into the point of:

    1. Nobody can shoot the difference in regards to ambient temp vs tuner settings.

    2. Nobody wants to pay the money to testing facilities that have the equipment to scientifically measure such changes.
    A. Would be getting into the density of the barrel alloy based on its' temperatures and how the barrel "flexes" under different temperatures.

    Sincerely,
    Theis
    I have held back in this tuner stuff but just trying to help here , I have tested ambient temp changes with tuners . At 1000 yds I shoot two powder charges in the morning , if they hit level the tuner is set , in the afternoon the same two powder charges do not hit level, the tuners adjustable weight must be moved towards the rear which speeds up the the movements that are vertically oriented only because the exit timing has sped up and so must the movement. it is completely repeatable has worked for many years and even had the spot marked to temp on the tuner so I could set it at the cleaning table before I went to the line. If the two different powder charges hit level then that is the best setting for the tuner which leaves no doubt it is set.

    I can also say from graphing barrel movements over the years that the vertical bending does speed up significantly as barrel temps get to 149 degrees and above on the most recent test with the military rifle. on my graphs the movement sped up about 1 grain worth of powder charge from cold to 149 degrees . This effect is is solely due to the barrel metal loosing it's strength.

    Tim in Tx
     
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    JB.IC

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    Out of curiosity, how many ELR comps have been won with the use of a barrel tuner?
    That can be easily figured out if there’s a record of the equipment used by the winners. That’s the beauty of quantitative analysis.
     

    JB.IC

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    The take away from the first link is that a heavy muzzle brake can probably provide the same results as an untuned tunner. As the analysis reports that it appears one showed an improvement regardless of the tunner setting. It just so happens that most ELR brakes are heavy by default.
     
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    brianf

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    @timintx

    that sounds like a good amount of data, wondering if you can post some

    would be nice to see actual data driven solutions in this sport for once
     

    timintx

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    Some is proprietary but I will help you all I can. No matter what anyone says tuners only effect the vertical bending of the barrel , there are other vibrations that effect accuracy and will bend the barrel in random directions but usually the reason being you have more weight below the barrel center line than above it so it usually vertically oriented . When the recoil force moves the barrel back a bending occurs according to the weight offsets above the center line verses Below. ANY weight hanging on the rifle such as a bolt handle or tactical light can result in a slight angular bending if it is attached to the side the rifle will react according to that offset ,but most guys dont shoot long range with a flashlight hanging on the side of the rifle. When you adjust a tuner the ONLY way to gauge a valid setting is to use two differing powder charges , adjust the tuner until both speeds hit the same height and lock it down . As temps climb you will move the tuner rearward ever so slightly about 1/20 of a turn to get the loads to converge again . but always use a load difference of about 1 grain of powder to check it ,if your barrel is moving up when the bullet exit it will shoot good if it moving downward as the bullets exit you will see a large difference in 2 loads. The weight of the tuner can and will determine the specific patterns you will have in your barrel, most patterns will be small and short up and down patterns which means you need to stay on the adjustments.

    Tim in Tx
     
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    Reppa

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    When you understand how harmonic vibration cancellation works then you won't question how a tuner works. Very simple mechanics laws of physics don't lie. If you disagree go jump off of a three-story building and see how it works for you. The fact that you don't understand how they work does not change that they do. It is a scientific fact that is not disputable. Only a fool would say that they don't work. The 50 other variances combined create a consistant issue .that shows up in your specfic built platform barrel length and couture its called vibration... . The objective is to reduce the over all combined issues that shows up on the end of your barrel. A v8 in your truck has lots of moving parts each part has a variances in weight from each other not to mention variances in ignition and combustion in each cylinder. remove the hormonic balancer from your motor and see how that works out for you..
    A tuner does not cancel anything. It changes the resonance frequency of the barrel. By changing the resonance, you can move the hamonic nodes so that the muzzle is at a node rather than an antinode.

     

    badassgunworks

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    A tuner does not cancel anything. It changes the resonance frequency of the barrel. By changing the resonance, you can move the hamonic nodes so that the muzzle is at a node rather than an antinode.

    Perhaps Council was a bad choice of words. To reduce harmonic frequency what is causing the problem or change the harmonic frequency that is causing the problem. in a roundabout way is canceling the problem that it's causing accuracy issues. Have you ever used a hunter balancer?
     

    Reppa

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    Perhaps Council was a bad choice of words. To reduce harmonic frequency what is causing the problem or change the harmonic frequency that is causing the problem. in a roundabout way is canceling the problem that it's causing accuracy issues. Have you ever used a hunter balancer?
    On a vibrating string, tube etc, you have points of high and low amounts of physical movement. By tuning it, you can get the point of exit to be a calm zone. You can also have a certain combination of length and mass that produces a ”wolf” frequency which is a wild vibration caused by multiple interacting resonance frequencies. In musical instruments this is heard as an obnoxious and very loud tone. Placing a weight on a harmonic of this wolf pith will calm it down significantly.
     
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    JB.IC

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    I’ve won two 1 MOA LR challenges with a tuner installed. Never once tried to tune any of the loads. I only installed it and was too lazy to do anything with it. I simply did a seating depth test and called it good.

    8D675323-19B7-4052-9DE8-3DAEB801E490.jpeg
     

    Matteo79

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    What I find amusing about this barrel tuner discussions, is that i didn't see any trial like ocw to share real results of tuning a round...
    These are mine, posted here on this forum for the third time.
    The rifle is a tikka t1x, a 22 lr, in bravo chassis by krg, ammo is sk plus yellow box.
    I shot 3 rounds for each target at 100 meters, the numbers near the targets are the barrel tuner lines, you can clearly see that at some point the flyers stop. Position 12 seems good here.
    IMG_20210704_113803.jpg
    IMG_20210704_113810.jpg

    I found in a second trial at 40 meters, that at position 31 it shots really better, look:
    WhatsApp Image 2021-08-19 at 21.42.42.jpeg
    WhatsApp Image 2021-08-19 at 21.42.33.jpeg


    So I decided that this was the sk plus yellow box position.

    Today I'm gonna do the same at 40 meters for the sk long range match ammo I will be using for shooting at 200 meters and more.

    Now, please, discuss this topic with pictures of your trials and conclusions.
     

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    Matteo79

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    I build ELR tuner brakes. I am the first and original designer of the horizontal Port design tuner break. And also the only person who makes Turner brakes up to 2 in in diameter.
    I like your work!
    Do you have any pictures of an ammo tuning work in progress to show the results of your barrel tuner?
     

    badassgunworks

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    I like your work!
    Do you have any pictures of an ammo tuning work in progress to show the results of your barrel tuner?
    I did at one point in time but no longer. I guess i could make another video. Have not been a need to do so as my customers Speak for the porduct. Ill see about making a other video soon.like the last video i did loads were devloped by ladder in .5 grain steps. And seating debths were optomized with no tune adjustments into a flat node. All done at 100 yards then tuned at 750 yards for optomized accuracy. Problem is at 100 yards its difficult to see clear changes when every group all bullets are touching. The improvement at 750 yards are not disputable and clear
     
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