Bartein or Lilja for fast twist bolt gun barrel?

CRPS Shooter

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CRPS shooter, those are interesting results with one ammo's group growing with disrance, and another ammo's group shrinking with distance. Same barrel's harmonics affect each ammo diffetently... or each ammo creates a different set of harmonics within the same barrel... either way, do you think a barrel tuning device could reverse/correct the trend shown?

Could such a device shrink your 200m Center X groups to be more consistent with the level of precision seen at 50m?

Would it possibly make the Eley 50m precision match its 200m accuracy?
A tuner can in theory be used to change the distance that is in perfect tune to a point. But the distance that is in tune would more be affected by the rate of muzzle climb between the different bullet velocity. How much you can change the rate of climb? I dont know.
I can not speak much on this as I only have enough experience to know that it has an effect and some of the results.
In people I know personally some have found tunes that are more consistent across distance some have found some that are helping long range but hurting close. Is this a byproduct of which harmonic is in tune? I dont know. One thing that does seem consistent is that the nodes are bigger with a good tune. In other words the rifle shoots more consistently across changing conditions ammo temp etc. But like said I have set aside tuners for later and am focusing on the rifle and ammo.
This I think is another whole topic. My opinion is that you want the rifle shooting as good as possible first as a tuner will never help with bullet instability etc.

One thing I would like to make very plain is that absolutely NONE of my ammo bare barrel shoot a smaller group at 200 yards in MOA then at 50 yards. Simply the decline in MOA is faster with some then others.
That said in ONE instance with a bergara 18" carbon fiber barrel it is possible to tune at 150 yards and the result is that the 100 and 150 yard groups are the same size in inchs.
I'm still learning. We can profile a barrel to give us more flex and increase the amount of positive compensation possible is that the answer? I dont know.
 

Rimdenter

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A tuner can in theory be used to change the distance that is in perfect tune to a point. But the distance that is in tune would more be affected by the rate of muzzle climb between the different bullet velocity. How much you can change the rate of climb? I dont know.
I can not speak much on this as I only have enough experience to know that it has an effect and some of the results.
In people I know personally some have found tunes that are more consistent across distance some have found some that are helping long range but hurting close. Is this a byproduct of which harmonic is in tune? I dont know. One thing that does seem consistent is that the nodes are bigger with a good tune. In other words the rifle shoots more consistently across changing conditions ammo temp etc. But like said I have set aside tuners for later and am focusing on the rifle and ammo.
This I think is another whole topic. My opinion is that you want the rifle shooting as good as possible first as a tuner will never help with bullet instability etc.

One thing I would like to make very plain is that absolutely NONE of my ammo bare barrel shoot a smaller group at 200 yards in MOA then at 50 yards. Simply the decline in MOA is faster with some then others.
That said in ONE instance with a bergara 18" carbon fiber barrel it is possible to tune at 150 yards and the result is that the 100 and 150 yard groups are the same size in inchs.
I'm still learning. We can profile a barrel to give us more flex and increase the amount of positive compensation possible is that the answer? I dont know.
ITS possiable
Screenshot_20210524-123459_Samsung Internet.jpg

Maybe ?
 

CRPS Shooter

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Not very detailed but interesting.... I agree on maybe. That is why I make it plain it only happened in ONE instance that I personally know.
That was only comparing 150 to 100 yards the 200 yard group was bigger in moa again then the 100 yard group
 

grauhanen

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If everytime I go out Center X shoots 0.4-0.5 group at 50 yards and a 7-8" at 200 and my Eley contact is 0.7 at 50 and 3-4" at 200 is that not consistent results? Maybe with a bench gun it would be CX 0.2-0.3 and 5-6" vs EC 0.4 and 3"
Results averaging 0.4" - 0.5" at 50 yards are not especially good if the rifle is good. I seem to remember yours being a RimX. That rifle should be producing better results with good ammo and as a result I suspect the lot of Center X you've used is not very good. It's worth noting that different lots of ammo can produce different results. As noted previously, ammo that doesn't produce the best results at closer distances can't be expected to do very well further out.

Regarding the question raised by others about better results at longer distances than at closer ones, no .22LR ammo can be expected to reliably produce better results (MOA-wise) as distance increases. There is no built-in self-correcting device, no "chip" or gyroscope, or anything else in a bullet that can cause it to alter its trajectory at a certain point to fly more accurately to a target further down range. In other words, no one can predict or set out to cause .22LR group MOA to shrink as distance increases. When it happens, it's by accident.

At places such as the Lapua testing facilities, MOA results at 100 meters are occasionally smaller than they are at 50. Here the exact same rounds record group results at both 50 and 100 with electronic sensors that don't affect the rounds in any way. When results at 100 are better than at 50 (MOA-wise) it is not, however, a common or, more significantly, a predictable occurrence. It happens when the center of gravity of some rounds are such that they produce unexpected and unanticipated results. It can't be predicted or relied upon.

The well-known poster HuskerP7M8 (Landy), who I believe posts on this forum as well as several others, analyzed hundreds of test tunnel results comparing results at 50 and 100. He found that on average group increased from 50 to 100 meters by a factor of 2.81.

Interestingly, with regard to better results at further distances than at nearer ones with other calibers, readers may consider Bryan Litz's "Shoot Thru Target Challenge," which he proposed in late 2014-early 2015. It's purpose was to have shooters show that it was possible to obtain better results at 200 yards than at 100 (MOA-wise). As of the summer of 2020, apparently no one had met the challenge. For more details, see, for example, https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/applied-ballistics-shoot-thru-target-challenge.144359/ and https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/applied-ballistics-shoot-thru-target-challenge.3861880/
 

CRPS Shooter

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I'm not sure what is really considered good at 50 yards for 10 shot groups. I dont test for the best groups at 50 so I'm sure there are better lots of CX out there that would create smaller groups. Lots of guys are shooting 5 shot groups and those are always a fair bit smaller. I also tend not to believe a majority of the amazing groups people post. The reality is I dont care how good my groups compare to someone else. They are for my use. I'm sure there are guys who can out shoot me at any range but in PRS there are a lot of other factors then just shooting.
Regardless if my group size is a good or bad lot of CX consider.
If I would have gone by 50 yard results I would be shooting that CX for competing. In fact that is exactly what happened. My previous 2 lots of CX shot very well then last year we couldnt find anything lapua for sometime. Just before our championship I found this last lot I had. All I had time for was checking zero and getting velocity quick before the match. It shot nice 50 yard groups and the velocity was the same as previous lots so good to roll right? Wrong! I missed a lot of targets in that match I never should have missed I puzzled over that for sometime and then decided to shoot groups at 200 yards in that rifle it grouped 12" my practice ammo was 8". (Pre RimX) It is because of that I dove into long range ammo testing and the results are why I say what I do today. Regardless of who good my groups are considered at 50 yards IF I only used those results I would be shooting a "bad" lot of CX and not be shooting a "good" lot of Contact that performs poorly at 50.
 

Rimdenter

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There is no built-in self-correcting device, no "chip" or gyroscope, or anything else in a bullet that can cause it to alter its trajectory at a certain point to fly more accurately to a target further down range.
Your correct what's in the bullet is in the bullet. Were talking about what contacts the bullet that alters its course of flight. That's 2 different scenarios , a higher twist rate will make any projectile if it's right hand climb right of center and slightly up the further it travels down range , imparting more or less stability to the mass we call bullets. Yes you are absolutely correct we can not reduce MOA we would be dumb asses to think we could. A 3mm high energy laser projected at the moon would be slightly over 7 kilometers in diameter on the moons surface , if reflected back it would be over 20 kilometers in diameter. It's called dissipation and we all know no projectile approaches the speed light. Or in layman terms MOA . The last time I spoke with any of Lapuas or Eleys technicians they were lot testing ammo regularly in their standard bench machines , dont tell nobody it's the same twist everytime unless furnished by a customer has been forever. If your statement were true see link or pic http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...all-rimfire-ammo-tests-accuratereloading-com/ the groups at 50 yds would be the winners at 75 and 100 ,but their not and every barrel would have the same twist rate for every projectile made to maintain your unalterable theory of bullet flight which is I'll say it BULLSHIT !😁
 

grauhanen

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If your statement were true see link or pic http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...all-rimfire-ammo-tests-accuratereloading-com/ the groups at 50 yds would be the winners at 75 and 100 ,but their not and every barrel would have the same twist rate for every projectile made to maintain your unalterable theory of bullet flight which is I'll say it BULLSHIT !😁
The emphatic nature of the post is matched by how ill-informed it is.

The Accurate Shooter comparison doesn't prove what it is purported to do.

This particular set of tests doesn't give any conclusive information. The tests referred to make no pretense to be comparing the same ammo at different distances. That's what makes the Lapua test facility results unique and worth looking at. In fact, it's unknown whether the results of the same variety of ammo at the different distances were done with the same lot or if different lots were used. This is a key piece of information that's not included.

With regard to the laser beam to the moon stuff, apparently you're wrong about that too.

According to optics.org in August 2020,
what begins as a light beam a few meters wide on the ground can spread out to more than 2 kilometers across, by the time it reaches the Moon’s surface, and then much wider when it bounces back. See https://optics.org/news/11/8/19
According to NASA, what begins as a light beam that’s about 10 feet, or a few meters, wide on the ground can spread out to more than 1 mile, or 2 kilometers, by the time it reaches the Moon’s surface, and much wider when it bounces back See https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/laser-beams-reflected-between-earth-and-moon-boost-science

Rest assured, however, I'm not interested in fighting. If you want to fight, join the army or get married.
 
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CRPS Shooter

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On one hand, that says quite a lot.
You got it! That is why we look at the big picture and not just 50 yard groups! 😉
I can take you to a number of guys all of who focused on 50 yard groups. They all have cleaned KYL racks at 50-100 yards. I dont even try because I cant be sure to hit a 1" target at 100 yards. On the other hand... 12" targets at 300 yards I have no fear of but they do. Why? Well with our last lock down up here a couple of them started looking at long range groups guess what they found? Yup the good 50 yard ammo wasnt so hot at 200 and the good 200 yard ammo kinda sucked at 50.
 

b6graham

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    You got it! That is why we look at the big picture and not just 50 yard groups! 😉
    I can take you to a number of guys all of who focused on 50 yard groups. They all have cleaned KYL racks at 50-100 yards. I dont even try because I cant be sure to hit a 1" target at 100 yards. On the other hand... 12" targets at 300 yards I have no fear of but they do. Why? Well with our last lock down up here a couple of them started looking at long range groups guess what they found? Yup the good 50 yard ammo wasnt so hot at 200 and the good 200 yard ammo kinda sucked at 50.
    Comes down to whats acceptable and what you need the best accuracy from. Thats what makes rimfire fun
     
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    CRPS Shooter

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    Absolutely have to agree! All this "arguing" is rather pointless because we all have different requirements for success.
    As 22lr ELR starts becoming more common to truly be successful it will take a combination of BR and other knowledge.
     
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    Rimdenter

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    The emphatic nature of the post is matched by how ill-informed it is.

    The Accurate Shooter comparison doesn't prove what it is purported to do.

    This particular set of tests doesn't give any conclusive information. The tests referred to make no pretense to be comparing the same ammo at different distances. That's what makes the Lapua test facility results unique and worth looking at. In fact, it's unknown whether the results of the same variety of ammo at the different distances were done with the same lot or if different lots were used. This is a key piece of information that's not included.

    With regard to the laser beam to the moon stuff, apparently you're wrong about that too.

    According to optics.org in August 2020,
    what begins as a light beam a few meters wide on the ground can spread out to more than 2 kilometers across, by the time it reaches the Moon’s surface, and then much wider when it bounces back. See https://optics.org/news/11/8/19
    According to NASA, what begins as a light beam that’s about 10 feet, or a few meters, wide on the ground can spread out to more than 1 mile, or 2 kilometers, by the time it reaches the Moon’s surface, and much wider when it bounces back See https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2020/laser-beams-reflected-between-earth-and-moon-boost-science

    Rest assured, however, I'm not interested in fighting. If you want to fight, join the army or get married.
    Fortunately I'm married but , my wife is open minded she dosen't look at 1 option with only a option 😉 and my memory doesn't serve me as it use to , the moon comparison was a statement from memory not an assertion.
     

    DavidBoren

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    I am willing to put a new barrel on my 22lr, but I don't think I am willing to reload for it. That being said, I do have to learn about this lot business with rimfire ammo. I am used to walking up and grabbing a brick of American Eagle off the rack, paying $8, then having myself a day.

    How does one go about finding out which lot their box of ammo is from?

    How would one go about ordering or reliably finding more of the same lot?

    How do you test more than one lot to see what it best for your gun?

    Do you shop around until you have several boxes from different lots? Shoot those, see what is best, then hope to find more of that lot still remaining for sale?

    Is it like trading cards in the rimfire ammo community...? Everyone just buys everything they can and trades box-for-box until you find someone with a bulk you can trade for...?
     
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