Right. I never disagreed with this.
I think it would actually be more interesting to take two barrels with similar weight and compare the temperature, as that's closer to the advantage that the customer is actually paying for.
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Right. I never disagreed with this.
I think it would actually be more interesting to take two barrels with similar weight and compare the temperature, as that's closer to the advantage that the customer is actually paying for.
Fourier is rolling over in his grave...
Enlighten us oh son of Fourier....
Teludyne Custom Shop in Hope, Maine
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/teludyne-straightjacket-proof-h-p-white/
http://www.thenewrifleman.com/descent-into-madness-intro-to-teludyne-tech-and-the-straight-jacket/
In Brian Litz study on barrel advancements, the Jacketed Bartlien was also the lightest barrel tested. I also believe all of those tested were of similar contour.
I agree,i've used Broughton 5C barrels on my last few builds, and they shoot as good or better than anything else ive use in the past.
I may have to give them a try, I have a project or two that it might be perfect for.
PM me if you need any info or assistance; I have 5 of them
As far as cooling faster, it may be a frivolous point unless someone can consistently show that it equates to less throat wear, i.e. longer barrel life. And if it does produce longer barrel life, how significant? I believe there is also a company doing epoxy wraps in the effort of elongating barrel life for typical barrel burners.
But the point being raised begs the question for the effects of "uniformity". The shooting discipline is extremely concerned with "uniformity" in every facet. I feel u brought up an excellent point and that is "uniform heat dissipation". I have no grounds to stand on in terms of validation, but from a theory perspective, I would think accuracy and uniform barrel harmonics would favor the steel barrel in that respect. In other words, as a serious shooter, I want the barrel to vibrate the exact same from the first shot of the day to the last shot of the day.
On a side note, didn't Litz perform this experiment in his latest book and find larger variations in POI with the carbon fiber barrels, as the barrels heated over longer strings of fire? (I am not home at this time to check my reference).
That's an interesting point Squibbler. Another point I've seen people make is the difference in the coefficient of thermal expansion between carbon and steel.
I agree that if I were seriously competing I'd want as simple, uniform and predictable behavior as possible out of my equipment, if for nothing else than paranoia. Why create one more thing to worry about.
Everyone debating over weather or not the carbon fiber and epoxy cools faster or slower than steel, convection vs thermal transfer, applied theories here and there, have any of y’all online thermal engineers ever looked at all the different types of epoxies out there?? Recipes with high transfer of heat as well as high insulative properties, high heat resistance, high tensile strength, none of your theories or applied physics means dittly doo until you know proof research’s protected epoxy choice. Judging from the theoretical knowledge thrown around concerning this simple decision I have a simple solution. Buy one of each.. send to a impartial tester.. I’ll volunteer. An Alaska winter coyote hunting would be the perfect test bed. Make em something in 17 centerfire please. Pm me for address
Brian Litz already did this. Advancements in modern Shooting
Can you share a summary of his conclusions or is that bad form?
I have it in front of me so I'll try to provide some takeaways so you guys can draw your own conclusions.
From what I gathered just briefly skimming through it, I'd take it with a grain of salt since it appears he ( Cal Zant) invalidates his testing throughout the chapter and then in his summary in regards to his thoughts on barrel stiffness and poi shift.
A significant amount of members on this forum have had different results as well ( Christensen Arms) and I'm pretty sure Frank's done a few video's too because this subject appears to come up alot.
@AMGtuned the Straight jacket barrel wasn't the lightest one tested either.
From what I gathered just briefly skimming through it, I'd take it with a grain of salt since it appears he ( Cal Zant) invalidates his testing throughout the chapter and then in his summary in regards to his thoughts on barrel stiffness and poi shift.
A significant amount of members on this forum have had different results as well ( Christensen Arms) and I'm pretty sure Frank's done a few video's too because this subject appears to come up alot.
@AMGtuned the Straight jacket barrel wasn't the lightest one tested either.
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Takeaways are in regards to Carbon fiber barrels:
" It's also common to see facts recited about thermal conductivity of carbon fiber, causing many to believe carbon fiber around a barrel acts as an insulator, holding heat in. In reality, thermal conductivity can vary greatly in different types of carbon fiber, with some being significantly more conductive than steel or even copper. However, thermal conductivity alone can't fully describe how heat moves through a barrel, without considering other factors like heat capacity, thermal resistance at the interfaces, and heat transport on the surface."
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.736.9349&rep=rep1&type=pdf
"...Carbon fiber is highly anisoptic, meaning its properties can vary dramatically based on direction. Along the fiber, it is very strong with high thermal conductivity, but perpendicular to the fiber those properties are greatly reduced. So when an engineer designs a barrel, how they build the layers and the orientation of those layers is what determines the structural properties of the finished barrel."
"The resin the fibers are placed in is another important element of the design. The resin can be an insulator, but can also be formulated to be thermally conductive. The thickness of the layers and ratio of fiber to resin can also influence the properties of the end product."
Then goes to say, " Carbon fiber wrapped barrels offer dramatically reduced weight compared to steel barrels of the same contour, and increased stiffness compared to steel barrels of the same weight".
" While it's true Carbon barrels cool more quickly than steel barrels, they also appear to heat up more quickly as well."
If you want to read more, buy the book.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/05/23/barrel-field-test-featured-modern-advancements-volume-2/
" It's also common to see facts recited about thermal conductivity of carbon fiber, causing many to believe carbon fiber around a barrel acts as an insulator, holding heat in. In reality, thermal conductivity can vary greatly in different types of carbon fiber, with some being significantly more conductive than steel or even copper. However, thermal conductivity alone can't fully describe how heat moves through a barrel, without considering other factors like heat capacity, thermal resistance at the interfaces, and heat transport on the surface."
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.736.9349&rep=rep1&type=pdf
"...Carbon fiber is highly anisoptic, meaning its properties can vary dramatically based on direction. Along the fiber, it is very strong with high thermal conductivity, but perpendicular to the fiber those properties are greatly reduced. So when an engineer designs a barrel, how they build the layers and the orientation of those layers is what determines the structural properties of the finished barrel."
"The resin the fibers are placed in is another important element of the design. The resin can be an insulator, but can also be formulated to be thermally conductive. The thickness of the layers and ratio of fiber to resin can also influence the properties of the end product."
Then goes to say, " Carbon fiber wrapped barrels offer dramatically reduced weight compared to steel barrels of the same contour, and increased stiffness compared to steel barrels of the same weight".
" While it's true Carbon barrels cool more quickly than steel barrels, they also appear to heat up more quickly as well."
If you want to read more, buy the book.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/05/23/barrel-field-test-featured-modern-advancements-volume-2/
After all this, we had one minor scuffle, a few claims, some refuted, lol, what did you decide on?
5 yrs ago I made one of my bold claims that I would never pay for a CF barrel, this summer I ended up spinning one on. It was a build for a kid, the rifle ended up at 11.7lbs, not sure on weight savings or where that got away from us. I can say, that overall I am impressed with it, accuracy is there, and for our application it flat works. It will never be what us here would consider a Heavy use gun, and I expect 2, maybe 3yrs life span from the barrel at the rate it will be fired, that could change.
Would I use one for myself, a barrel usually lasts me under a yr, and I rebarrel 3-4 rifles a yr, so I am going to say no, mostly from a cost standpoint.
But damn, does that rifle look good.
I went with one for my 7 SS build as well. After fluting a bartlein 3b there isn't that much difference in cost if you look for sales. I got mine for $630 i think. So was able to still keep the Sendero contour like my current barrel but not really increase weight and i'll admit it looks phenomenal lol. Main attribute was to bring the balance of the gun back towards the mid point rather than be noticeably front heavy. Haven't gotten it chambered yet but i can't wait to get it setup.
Honestly i want another for a 18" 224 valkryie build. Kind of like an SPR/Varminter that isn't overly heavy like it is with the 18" medium contour on it now.
Honestly i want another for a 18" 224 valkryie build. Kind of like an SPR/Varminter that isn't overly heavy like it is with the 18" medium contour on it now.
My bad. Still pretty light for a 1.25" diameter barrel though
Who cares. The Proof CF shoots amazing, looks great, and are lighter. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
Kind of how i feel at this point. Though i'd be curious to see published data proving their claims so the debate would end. Either way since they've come down in price they are an excellent option at reducing weight at a sendero contour and up.
It had been debated adnauseum here since they came out. If they were inferior, you know for sure the hide would have its blood. Proof CF are legit.
Christiansen Arms CF on the other hand...... that’s a hard pass from me.
I mean they perform, i'm not disputing that. I have one for that reason alone. I'm saying published data showing that CF is actually rapidly dissipating heat and therefore living up the claims of longer barrel life, decreased throat erosion, etc. Or if it's actually insulating the barrel. I think Frank showed that it actually dissipates the heat as claimed once before with a heat gun but can't seem to find it.
Hardy is another new CF player that seems to be good as well. As for Christensen yeah i wouldn't touch one.
I can’t find the thread, but from what I remember reading it, the carbon fiber, dissipated heat faster than steel. I don’t know if it changed barrel life, but I know I want one in .223 AI when I burn out my factory one.
Yes i was googling snipershide proof research test and didn't see anything. But that's about the only source or video rather of someone running lots of rounds through their proof to check shift. Which was what i always heard the negatives were, was that after they heated up they shifted more than steel. Though always seemed like a non issue to me as i see proof as an application specific barrel, specifically hunting.
I thought so too. But yeah i want a 224v for my SPR bad.
I haven't experienced that with any of mine. I've gotten them plenty hot but never experienced any POI shift. I feel if there was any measurable amount that wasn't caused by shooter error, it was likely caused by mirage since I have noticed more of that with the Proof CF barrels. Either way, I'm sold on them or else I wouldn't be planning on picking up a fourth. Also much happier with the Proof CF barrel than the Bartlein it replaced.
Yeah, I have read for hours about Christiansen Arms CF barrels walking bad after 5 rounds. Never read that about a Proof.
The only negative about CF I would see is making a gun so light that recoil mitigation is worse with less weight. But on a hunting rifle or a .223 variant it would be a moot point.
The only negative about CF I would see is making a gun so light that recoil mitigation is worse with less weight. But on a hunting rifle or a .223 variant it would be a moot point.
If you’re not worried about weight savings stick with a top tier SS cut rifled barrel for cost.
We could argue all day about the performance characteristics of CF and what they do and what they don’t but the reality is that they are great barrels and their main benefit is weight. You pay over twice more for the weight savings than a good SS blank.
They’re also pretty damn sexy.
I do have a concern about impact performance which I’ve never seen professionally addressed, and no I don’t mean arm chair assessments, I mean professionally evaluated by people who specialize in this stuff. What happens when your CF wrapped barrel takes a tumble and a rock takes a chunk out of it? Luckily mine have never experienced this but I often wonder. Just something to think about. It won’t keep me from owning them, in fact I just order a Q The Fix last night with a Proof CF barrel and I’m planning on having a 6.5x47 CF barrel done up for it too.
We could argue all day about the performance characteristics of CF and what they do and what they don’t but the reality is that they are great barrels and their main benefit is weight. You pay over twice more for the weight savings than a good SS blank.
They’re also pretty damn sexy.
I do have a concern about impact performance which I’ve never seen professionally addressed, and no I don’t mean arm chair assessments, I mean professionally evaluated by people who specialize in this stuff. What happens when your CF wrapped barrel takes a tumble and a rock takes a chunk out of it? Luckily mine have never experienced this but I often wonder. Just something to think about. It won’t keep me from owning them, in fact I just order a Q The Fix last night with a Proof CF barrel and I’m planning on having a 6.5x47 CF barrel done up for it too.
I think your optic and stock have more to worry about. The worst case I can think up for the barrel is if you damaged the crown. Modern composites done right are no joke.
I race carbon fiber mountain bikes and beat the living hell out of them, you can’t even imagine! 
I would not worry about any kind of light hits on solid objects...
I would not worry about any kind of light hits on solid objects...
Bartlein Blank - $345 + PVA Price to fit $425 + $100 if you want Cerakote - at 4 months and still waiting
Proof Research CF Savage Pre Fit - $829.00 - no wait
Proof Research CF Savage Pre Fit - $829.00 - no wait
Got another two months probably too.
I would go with the Bartlein, if weight is not a concern why consider the Proof Research? Look at what's winning in f-class, benchrest, prs, nrl. Bartlein is my first choice but there are several other great barrel manufacturers. I have a hawk hill barrel too and it shoots lights out I wouldn't hesitate to get another.
Can you use a silencer with these straight jackets?
Absolutely. Have I? No, I do not currently own cans. Am i 100% certain it works, yes.
What do one of these cost complete?
Bolt guns run 750-900 if memory serves correctly. AR platform 900-1050. He channels your stock to fit the contour as it is straight 1.25". PM me if youd like more info. Not trying to hijack or cross that soliciting line. I will say, I bought my first for a .22 and never looked back. I currently have a .300wm, .308 bolt and gas, .223 wylde gas, and .22lr.
Nice call! Just got a 24” 6.5 1:8 Sendero for $655 shipped!!!
Not that Guns and Ammo is the ultimate resource for some scientific testing, but they just did a little comparison on a standard, fluted and CF wrapped barrel - 20 rds, check temp, wait 10 mins, check temp. Probably worth the 2 mins it takes to read. Searched Google for KRG SOTIC, pulled up the GA “review”, and it was the second/follow-on article. Titled Hammer Forged Barrels or some such.
Spoiler: standard steel wins, fluted is in 2nd and CF is 3rd. Caveat: the CF cools quickly (most quickly, in fact), but that’s moot since it starts significantly hotter.
Really depends on how you want to use your barrel. LIMFAC is going to be movement of heat from barrel to atmosphere once the barrel “saturates” if you’re doing high volume shooting. Initial heating will be largely dependent on mass and the specific heat capacity of the material...and, in the case of CF, the thermal conductivity throughout multiple layers. Academically interesting? Absolutely. Useful? Maybe. However, I get the sense most match shooters don’t run their guns that way ;-).
Spoiler: standard steel wins, fluted is in 2nd and CF is 3rd. Caveat: the CF cools quickly (most quickly, in fact), but that’s moot since it starts significantly hotter.
Really depends on how you want to use your barrel. LIMFAC is going to be movement of heat from barrel to atmosphere once the barrel “saturates” if you’re doing high volume shooting. Initial heating will be largely dependent on mass and the specific heat capacity of the material...and, in the case of CF, the thermal conductivity throughout multiple layers. Academically interesting? Absolutely. Useful? Maybe. However, I get the sense most match shooters don’t run their guns that way ;-).
Heat dissipation? - Maybe, but you won't find a measurable difference that is actually meaningful.
Weight and balance? - big difference.
Looks? - Eye of the beholder ...
Accuracy/Precision? - you won't be able to tell the difference between a Proof, Bartlien, Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Chanlynn, Lija, Obermyer, Shilien, Schneider ... etc.
POI shift? - I have owned a few Christiensen arms CF rifles and the POI shifted on each of them after 3-5 shots, not so with the proofs I own even after 20+ shot stress test strings - no worries ...
If you need to make yourself feel better by believing the CF barrel dissipates heat faster, good on you. Me, I think they look cool and life is to short to hunt with an ugly gun.
Weight and balance? - big difference.
Looks? - Eye of the beholder ...
Accuracy/Precision? - you won't be able to tell the difference between a Proof, Bartlien, Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Chanlynn, Lija, Obermyer, Shilien, Schneider ... etc.
POI shift? - I have owned a few Christiensen arms CF rifles and the POI shifted on each of them after 3-5 shots, not so with the proofs I own even after 20+ shot stress test strings - no worries ...
If you need to make yourself feel better by believing the CF barrel dissipates heat faster, good on you. Me, I think they look cool and life is to short to hunt with an ugly gun.
I had one turn up so will be able to compare between that and the proof steel in med palma soon.
Not trying to drift off topic, but of all the recommendations to stay with a steel barrel over CF, only SS is brought up. I've had an SS Criterion and a chromoly Criterion barrel, and I believe the chromoly shoots better. Any factual basis for SS being better than chromoly aside from corrosion resistance.
If you are right then why do Proof barrels outlast non carbon barrels? Or do you claim that those shooters reporting their actual experience with barrel life are mistaken or liars?
