Gunsmithing  Bedding over current bedding?

hypno02

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What steps would one take to touch up a glass bedding job or to bed orver areas previously bedded?

The rifle has pillars installed, and it will be marine tex over marine tex. I'm just curious as to whether or not it needs to be roughed up or if I can just apply it over the current bedding in order to create a durable platform for the reciever. Thanks!
 

WRENCHHEAD

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Re: Bedding over current bedding?

is this stock a used stock you picked up? if so, i would grind out most of the old bedding and re-bed.

if you don't want to go that in depth then yes you need to rough up the surface and clean it. it may have release agent residue from the past bedding job on the surface, preventing the new material from sticking.
 

BlackOps Tech

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Re: Bedding over current bedding?

Generally, I'd never recommend bedding on top of old bedding, but I've always been of the mindset that Marine-Tex bedded rifles should be re-bedded annually. In this case, we machine away all of the old bedding, fill the stock in and start from scratch.
 

hypno02

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Re: Bedding over current bedding?

It's a manners T4 I bedded myself a few years back. I'm curious because the rifle will eventually be rebarreled so I thought as long as the first few inches of barrel will need to be rebedded, why not touch up the whole thing, as it's not perfect.
 

furburner

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Re: Bedding over current bedding?

Grind out, rub with cleaner and bed again! I tried lazy way and ruffed up old bedding and rebedded the new stuff popped off old and stuck to gun. I had release agent but I when I popped action out it stayed on so had to get bedding off action!! It sucked no shortcuts just Anny up time and do it right
 

Sean the Nailer

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  • May 20, 2006
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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I've always been of the mindset that Marinetex bedded rifles should be re-bedded annually.... </div></div>

    Really? Do tell, please.
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sean the Nailer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I've always been of the mindset that Marinetex bedded rifles should be re-bedded annually.... </div></div>

    Really? Do tell, please.
    </div></div>

    What I'll say from this point is designed to motivate you to conduct your own research, but my prolonged testing has shown that Marine-Tex does not maintain its integrity over time. As the qualities of Marine-Tex change with time, you'll notice a degradation of your rifles performance.

    I've illustrated this countless times in my own shop, but no one can argue its widespread use as a bedding compound. My choice is to not allow it in my shop as a matter of standard, but the choice to use it or not should be left up to the end user.
     

    Sean the Nailer

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  • May 20, 2006
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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    Ok, I'm definitely willing to entertain this train of thought. To which, I'll pose the question of, if not MarineTex, then what?

    I've no clinical knowledge of the degree of absorption of moisture that it has, though I can see the prolonged use AND prolonged sloppiness of solvents and/or oils possibly being absorbed detrimentally.

    Possibly. I am still alive, so I haven't stopped learning. No argument there. I would sure like to hear any examples, and/or see any photo's to which you are referring.

    Thank you.
     

    Tripwire

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    Jun 18, 2006
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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Marinetex does not maintain its integrity over time. As the qualities of Marinetex changes with time, you'll notice a degradation of your rifles performance.

    </div></div>

    I'd agree with that if the original mix was less or more than the specified proportion, but mixed 5:1 properly I'll have to beg to differ. That said, I find Devcon Steel to be the best thing going for bedding and only use Marine Tex for texturing a stock, or other exterior stock work, ever since trying Devcon for the first time.

    Per the OP's question, the proper thing to do is get all the old bedding out and start over, then you know for sure what you have. Lot's of bedding jobs however, are skim coated for some reason or other, and they turn out fine with the base bedding sufficiently roughed up and degreased.
     

    wchartz

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    Some years ago Devcon aluminum was popular. It's main advantage being it does not dull woodworking tools like Devcon steel.Do any of you use the aluminum? If not why not?
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tripwire</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BlackOps Tech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Marinetex does not maintain its integrity over time. As the qualities of Marinetex changes with time, you'll notice a degradation of your rifles performance.

    </div></div>

    I'd agree with that if the original mix was less or more than the specified proportion, but mixed 5:1 properly I'll have to beg to differ. </div></div>

    I understand what you're saying Trip, but chemistry is what it is, proper ratio or not. My suggestion would be to test it for yourself....of course, this would involve properly mixing Marine-Tex and gauge it over the course of 12 months. You'll note the softening of the compound as it gets older.

    I've not seen this characteristic in other commercially available compounds and we use our own compound to maintain a specific in-house standard. You'll note that on the Brownells website, of the compounds commonly used for bedding, Brownells does not describe Marine-Tex as a bedding compound:

    Marine-Tex: <span style="font-style: italic">High strength epoxy plugs holes, seals cracks and makes repairs in wood, aluminum, and steel. Putty-like consistency, will not run or drip. Impervious to solvents. Virtually no shrinkage or expansion.</span>

    Devcon: <span style="font-style: italic">Two-part epoxy forms maximum-strength rifle <span style="text-decoration: underline">bedding</span>, and helps repair non-critical metal parts. Fills voids, cracks and machine marks; excellent bonding strength for many wood-to-metal and metal-to-metal applications. Machinable after 4 hours; fully cures in 16 hours, or reduce cure time by applying heat per the manufacturer’s instructions. Highly resistant to chemicals and acids. Steel, Aluminum and Titanium available as putty. Steel also available as liquid for easy flow into tight areas, and making molds, fixtures and light gauge forming dies. Steel Putty and Titanium Putty meet Mil-Spec DOD-C-24176B(SH), Steel Liquid meets Mil-Spec MMM-A-1754, and Aluminum Putty meets Mil-Spec DOD-C-24176B.</span>

    AcraGlas Gel: <span style="font-style: italic">Over the years we had hundreds of customer requests for an epoxy accurizing compound with a butter-smooth consistency which would neither run, drip or leach out from between wood and metal after being placed in the gun stock. After many years of research and testing, we perfected a modified version of our popular Acraglas® that gives the same super accurizing <span style="text-decoration: underline">bedding</span> job and also meets those specialized smooth application features you have asked for. </span>

    Just food for thought....I've tested them all and know why Brownells doesn't use the word "bedding" in their description of Marine-Tex.
     

    Straight Shooter

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    It might be interesting to see what the military uses for rifle bedding when they use conventional stocks. I bet Chad Dixon knows or could find out easier than most of us.

    A little bird told me it was Marine Tex. According to its uses it includes permanent repairs to metal and machinery. I have some stuck on the corner of my bench that is at least 15 years old and it doesn’t seem any different than the stuff I used to patch a defect in my shop floor which has stood up to years of dragging steel legged equipment over it.
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    We're getting a bit off-topic here, but:

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It might be interesting to see what the military uses for rifle bedding when they use conventional stocks. A little bird told me it was Marine Tex. </div></div>

    The Military first started using Marine-Tex in 1987. This doesn't necessarily prove anything or mean that it's ideal as a bedding compound. It's very cheap in large quantity, easy to use and has a relatively low cure time.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">According to its uses it includes permanent repairs to metal and machinery. </div></div>

    It's original design wasn't geared toward being permanent.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">doesn’t seem any different </div></div>

    Based on the widespread use of Marine-Tex as a "bedding" compound, I realize that my remarks may stir a bit of controversy. As such, my original comments were designed to stir individuals to conduct testing of their own. There can be a big difference in "not any different" and "doesn't seem any different." My testing was a bit more scientific and I've seen a lot of rifles bedded with Marine-Tex that clearly had a degradation of performance after a period of time.

    Understandably, you seem to have an appreciable level of respect for Chad (well earned on Chad's part), so I'll ask, does he use Marine-Tex? After looking at numerous threads and being humored by the "guess the compound" posts, I believe we all can safely say he doesn't. Maybe Chad knows why Brownells doesn't use the word "bedding" in their description of Marine-Tex as well....
     

    wnroscoe

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    Jun 12, 2006
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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    Devcon 10110 for rifle bedding.
    Marine Tex for grip texture and DBM bedding.
     

    Straight Shooter

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    I'm here to learn anything I can to build a better product so please don't read anything else into what I am writting. I have no affiliation with any products here. I am purely interested in facts and figures that support anyones opinions of any product related to rifle building. I am interested in the "best" and am not to concerned with cost on such a small part of a completed rifle as long as the benefits truly are measurable. Durability is certainly an important measurable quality.

    Chad has already said he isn't using Marine Tex. I just know he has history with military competition rifles so I believe he would know the what and why to what they use.

    The military rarely uses any product based on what is the cheapest especially when they are going to battle. (my observation) More likely due to it's proven durability, chemical resistance and stability over the range of conditions they operate in. If Marine Tex had a breakdown of physical properties in as short as a year they would have had a hard time proclaiming it is suitable for permanent repairs or calling it structural. In my experience with it it gets tougher over time.

    As far as degraded in a rifle stock, I agree if it isn't placed over a suitable foundation it will chip right up. If it's to thin, over smooth or contaminated surface it will fail. This is my experience with any expoxy type bedding.

    I am interested in your unbiased scientific method and results of anything used to build rifles. Today especially focused on bedding compounds.

    Marine-Tex properties (13,000psi compressive strenght/ 1800psi adhesive/4000psi tensile strength) are superior to all but the Titanium Devcon. Have you tried mixing Marine Tex by the weight ratio of 6.3-1? I have found it even better now that I have the rationed proportions exact. I can now file towards the center even on the thinest edges and not chip it.

    What is a better bedding and why?
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    I understand exactly what you're saying and my comments aren't intended to be offensive. I support your quest to build the absolute best rifles possible and sometimes that involves venturing away from what has been considered conventional wisdom. My support is inclusive of my challenge for the community here to conduct your own testing. You've already made an observation that runs parallel with my own findings.

    I've caught flack in the past for speaking against the use of Marine-Tex as a bedding compound, primarily because it goes against conventional wisdom and the fact that it's used by the Military. Because I've never been one to follow for the sake of not knowing better, I've spent countless hours with testing, researching, designing, developing and prototyping and the results have been very eye-opening. This is why I say there's a big difference between "not different" and "doesn't seem to be different." I test everything and I'm sometimes unpopular because I publish the results....kind of my own version of MythBusters.

    My intentions here are to be helpful and I realize that I may not always come across that way. The technology in our rifles is directly related to everything I say here and I'll never say anything based on conjecture (or even strong theory for that matter). I've helped more than a few of the newer 'smiths on this site (I've given away a few specialized tools in the process) and it was through the same thought provoking challenges I've mentioned.
     

    Sean the Nailer

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    Mike, and others,

    Thank you for 'telling' as this thread is something to which I keep checking back on. As stated previous, I actually DON'T know everything. To which, learning is a continued process. In saying as much, I won't deny that the first thoughts that entered my head were along the lines of "You'd be probably be one of those mechanics who recommend that your Halogen Fluid be topped up in your headlights at every 3rd oil change".

    Now, that being said (with the understanding that it was intended to be humorous) I'll admit that this then puts me in the position of the one asking for a said "Halogen Fluid check".

    Be that as it may, the information shared here regarding bedding compound is very interesting. I don't know what 'everybody' uses out there, though I do know what I've got in some of my sticks. Add to that, the fact that I've no complaints about it/their performance yet is also pertinent. But I'm not an 'Operator', and their performance isn't/doesn't have life-threatening consequences.

    Well, maybe some wildlife, but nothing CRITICAL. So by all means, continue with this discussion, and I do hope others will chime in here moreso. I've known too many through my life, whom have the opinion of "for every solution, I have a problem". The quest of eliminating variables is a continued one.

    There are so many tidbits of knowledge here, including what lapping compound to use (Not Clover, eh?) and other things. Thanks again.
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Bedding over current bedding?

    Thanks Sean and I may be anal, but I'd never think to check the Halogen Fluid Level
    grin.gif


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