bergara b14r won't extract unfired round from chamber

handfull

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New b14r. Tried 3 different types of rounds, all would not extract unfired round from chamber. Fired one round and case extracted fine. Rounds are being shoved into lands and can see marks. Filed bullet down a little and extracts fine. Was using federal 36 and 40 GR as well as cci standard velocity. Any ideas? Is this normal and will it change with some rounds down it? Any suggestion on diff ammo?

Response from bergara was prompt which I appreciated but not very prescriptive.

"Your rifle has a match grade chamber, the bullets will be jammed into the lands and that will effect your extraction, some rounds will be more difficult than others depending on how long the bullet is."


Thanks, Randy
 

HousePlant

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    Yeah... um... the rifle should extract even loaded rounds.
     

    handfull

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    2nd email for anyone interested.

    "We recommend the below ammo for your rifle, some will still stick but that is just due to the type of chamber.

    B-14R .22 – Eley Tennex, Eley Match, Federal Gold Medal Ultra Match, Lapua Center X"
     

    accurate obsession

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    I don't own a Bergara but know several people who do, one just had severe extraction issues during a match. The extractor spring had completely given up, Bergara replaced it quickly, yours is probably headed that way. As far the chamber goes any and all "match" chambers will engrave rifling on a chambered bullet, how much is the secret sauce for that gunsmith/company/purpose of that rifle. It is also dependent on ammunition brand as to where the driving bands are (too much engrave and you cannot extract an unfired round). That is why every response to rimfire accuracy is "shoot every ammo you can" find what performs and is accurate in your rifle.
     

    021411

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    Take a look at this thread. I had a few that wouldn’t extract and the assist spring on the tensioner claw fixed the issue. Took 2 mins to do.
     

    AirGunShawn

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    My B14R has been fed all sorts of ammo with no issues whatsoever. (see attached image. ) When my Vudoo was sent out for lot testing,
    someone told them to start with Midas Plus. I asked Devan to please try Center X and he actually got better results. As a matter of fact,
    none of my guns likes Midas Plus better than Center X. It is almost seems like the V22 found the most consistent lot of Center X
    and that that ammo does well in all but two rifles.

    When I test ammo, my objective is to find the best shooting and the most cost effective that I can get. It is almost always ends up being
    the lot of Center X that my V22 liked. BTW.... none of my guns have any FTE issues. I would not be tolerant of that even it
    was only 2 / 100 rounds. I would have to resolve it.

    I have a Serbian made MP22 that does pretty well with SK red box. Strangely, it doesn't like Center X at all. I have forgotten but I think
    it liked Wolf the best. I have over a dozen other guns that hate Wolf. Hate means any group over .375" ctc. is unacceptable.
    I considered shot #6 in image #3 as my fault. I will be re-testing that gun.
    Here is an accurate article about the rifle. $5.00 USD would have made a huge difference in the trigger. The rest of the gun is
    really very nice. Fit n finish, polish, bluing, wood etc. I paid $275.00 USD in 2021
    They also come with a threaded muzzle.....

    Back to your point.... I would look into the extractor and spring. It is after all a childishly simple design that simply grabs the rim of the
    case. There is little to go wrong from a design standpoint. My B14R extractor spring is at least twice as strong as the left side finger.
    And the extractor finger edges are very crisp so as to not roll off of the case rim.

    In image number 3, the circles are .50" and 1" diameter. My aim point was the black dot and I was shooting to
    see how it grouped. Image #3 was for the Zastava MP22. Image number 4 and 5 were for the B14R.

    In the future, all testing will be done using the Bullet Pro 150 target. I have them printed on thick card stock at the UPS store.
    The bullet holes print much nicer than on plain thin paper. I also have a .22 E-Z Scoring Plug on the way from Nikk in Canada.

    I suspect you have seen how to add a 4.5 pound #6-32 long nose spring plunger to your trigger to change the weight to 11 ounces??
    The mod also provides you adjustable sear engagement and stop. Cost is $4.56 and 20 minutes. Your trigger already has pilot holes drilled
    so all you need do is enlarge the hole and install the plunger. Part number 8495A11 ( order one with nylon thread locker)
    If you have already installed a #4-40 set screw, you can still do this mod.

    My SH connection is painfully slow but you can contact me on my email which is shown on my Avatar face. There is no need to
    open the trigger module..... It is also a reversable, removable mod.
     

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    handfull

    Sergeant of the Hide
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    Thanks will try the detent spring approach to stiffen up that side.
     

    Doctorwho1138

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    My Bergara or RimX won’t extract unfired CCI or Federal. No problems with Eley, SK, or Lapua. But I only shoot CCI or Federal in my Walther, GSG, and 10/22 now anyway. Even then it’s only a last resort sort of thing.
     
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    Boxerglocker

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    This really is not an unusual thing, many barrel makers actually have disclaimers to state this may happen with certain types of ammunition. I have one match chambered rifle in particular that hates all CCI offerings, SV, subsonic, Green Tag.
    1645199466034.png
     
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    Possium8

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    I do believe that it states in the manual that the match chamber may not extract unfired rounds.
     
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    Rem7

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    When I called Bergara and told them the issue of not extracting an un-fired round, I was told that I needed to send it back for repair. I don’t know what they did but it extracts just fine now.
     

    357Max

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    Hadn’t really proof checked this part on mine aside from just a few when timed out during a match.

    B14R in Manners w mini chasis. Mack brothers mag.

    Have a pretty good variety on hand so I loaded the mag up with 2 each.

    22 rounds 2 of each pictured fast cycling.
    No issues. I know it’s not that many, but I figured it might show me if a little more work was needed.

    The velociters engage a bunch of rifling, & stingers case is so long I think the case hits Rifling. They all extracted without issue.

    BD8E8C02-B932-477A-BD9F-B2CCE88F54C9.jpeg
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    5988EF1E-4306-447B-9603-127BE53E4766.jpeg
    5F85ECD2-77EB-4210-83FF-F4CCE8647A5B.jpeg


    And yes I know the bi-pod is on backwards.
     
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    FromMyColdDeadHand

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    I wouldn't expect a match chamber to extract an unfired round. More surpised if it works- and makes me wonder if the chamber is short enough. Pretty much SOP at a match to get an OK to fire a chambered if time expires. That and a pocket knife to flick out brass.
     

    AirGunShawn

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    It sounds to me that if Bergara fixed it, I feel like they could only do that by altering the chamber specs by some amount.
    Polishing at the very least.

    I would venture to guess that it was something more aggressive than that.

    On the other hand, does it mater what kind of chamber it has as long as it shoots great?

    There is an interesting idea I have seen.... It is called a Smooth Twist X barrel. It is only rifled for the second half of it's length.
    It's been around for over 20 years I believe. Does it work? I have no idea.

    When I called Bergara and told them the issue of not extracting an un-fired round, I was told that I needed to send it back for repair. I don’t know what they did but it extracts just fine now.
     

    Boxerglocker

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    Vudoo and Rimx shooters, do your rifles extract live rounds?
    It's ammunition dependant with the RimX the design of the extractor plate holds it better than a traditional extractor hook design so haven't had it do it but can definitely feel the increased effort to extract and you will see the barrel rifling engraved on the bullet head. I always make an effort to send the last round down range.
     

    Rem7

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    I’d expect all guns to extract live rounds. Would not make any sense for them not to.
     

    Boxerglocker

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    I’d expect all guns to extract live rounds. Would not make any sense for them not to.
    So would you expect that your chamber be opened up so much as to accommodate every known ammunition manufacturer, bullet profile, lot available in order to do that? Even at the expense of accuracy on a chamber reamed specific for say Lapua/SK or Eley?
     

    Rem7

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    So would you expect that your chamber be opened up so much as to accommodate every known ammunition manufacturer, bullet profile, lot available in order to do that? Even at the expense of accuracy on a chamber reamed specific for say Lapua/SK or Eley?
    I was using match ammunition, and I wish I would have recorded it so everyone could see what it was doing. It would not extract any live ammunition.
     

    handfull

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    So far tried cci, federal, sk std, and Aguilar match. May try to stiffen extractor spring or just live with it
     

    AirGunShawn

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    So would you expect that your chamber be opened up so much as to accommodate every known ammunition manufacturer, bullet profile, lot available in order to do that? Even at the expense of accuracy on a chamber reamed specific for say Lapua/SK or Eley?

    I would expect the designers to do their job!!
    I would then expect the design checkers to do his job.
    Then I would expect them to test the product and refine it as necessary.

    I would expect that the designers consider all ammunition that is likely to be used in their gun and design a system that would feed, shoot and eject
    on virtually every cycle. Some guns won't tolerate Stinger and the manufacture says so in the owner's manual. But we are not talking about using
    inappropriate ammunition here. I suspect that the ammunition in post #17 all fits withing the SAAMI specs.

    Since any stuck ammo will come out with either a pocket knife or a dowel down the barrel, ( Enough force ) I have to suspect that the extractor
    design, spring force or dirt is part of the problem.

    Have you ever seen the springs used in a Vudoo? They are small little things. 1/16" OD ??

    The Springfield below has an extremely robust extractor. It can hardly be deflected with your thumb.
    I just put a Stinger into my 1922 and it pulled the bullet back out without issue. You could see where the over length case had
    gone into the chamber. It had no rifling marks, but it would not have mattered.

    The Winchester 52 uses coil spring but they hole they go into is around .13" Of great importance is that the right-hand side extractor
    has very sharp, crisp edges. ( think kittens claws) The sharp edge is set up so that it contacts the case near the case wall to maximum
    the extractor force.
    The Win 52 finger is cut to about 95* angle so it grabs the cartridge.

    I just looked and virtually all of my guns keep the spring / pivot pin / grip edge of extractor at about a 1:1 ratio.

    My B14R has about a 1:1.2 advantage over the extractor tips. It's finger is about 87*. It has about a 3* shed angle. :-(

    If any of my guns had FTE issues, I would stone them to match the Winchester style. I'm intolerant of mechanical devices
    not functioning properly.

    If I were designing the bolt, I would start with tightest bullet types that I thought may be used and design the fingers and spring forces so
    that they would still be able to extract those bullet types.

    If you start with the tightest chamber and worst-case bullet, you can minimize extraction issues. I don't believe that the fingers
    and springs are very tightly intertwined with accuracy.

    If accuracy and function are not balanced out and one of them suffers, you can bet their has been a design flaw or cost compromise.
     

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    JMayo

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    I shoot bench rest. Everybody has custom Rifles not many will extract unfired cases. Nature of a high quality rifle.
     
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    AirGunShawn

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    I just looked at post #5 and all 357MAX did was increase the finger pressure.

    From what I just read in post #30, some guns especially high priced custom guns simply cant extract unfired bullets and although
    a premium price was paid for the gun, we should just except the unacceptable.

    If that is the case, why do people complain about mass produced guns?? Just except the failures as the nature of mass a
    produced item.

    A bolt action gun is required to do about five things slowly. If it wont do one of them, that's a problem!

    A gunsmith is a machinist that specializes or is limited to working on guns. The only indicator that suggests that he knows what
    he is doing is the product he produces. If all of these custom guns cant extract unfired bullets and everyone knows it, a good smith
    would resolve that issue. Lord knows I would not except that low level of quality.

    There has to be a reasonably simple solution. Higher powered extractor springs, retrofitting some one else's extractor in the bolt,
    using a dual extractor design, a redesigned hook profile. I doesn't mean that accuracy needs to be compromised.

    The Springfield design in post #29 is going to extract about any case. The finger is very robust and cant be moved with your
    thumb but the cam action of the bolt has no problem doing it.

    When people buy cars and there is the slightest thing wrong with it, the first thing they do is expect it to be resolved.

    If the tooling that I designed for Ford motor or GM failed once a day for only five minutes, they would never except the lost production.
    Imagine the assembly line being shut down for just five minutes. All of those people getting paid while doing nothing....
    Sorry FOMOCO .... It's just the nature of building cars every 54 seconds..... Just get over it.....

    I shoot bench rest. Everybody has custom Rifles not many will extract unfired cases. Nature of a high quality rifle.
     

    littlesister

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    I just looked at post #5 and all 357MAX did was increase the finger pressure.

    From what I just read in post #30, some guns especially high priced custom guns simply cant extract unfired bullets and although
    a premium price was paid for the gun, we should just except the unacceptable.

    If that is the case, why do people complain about mass produced guns?? Just except the failures as the nature of mass a
    produced item.

    A bolt action gun is required to do about five things slowly. If it wont do one of them, that's a problem!

    A gunsmith is a machinist that specializes or is limited to working on guns. The only indicator that suggests that he knows what
    he is doing is the product he produces. If all of these custom guns cant extract unfired bullets and everyone knows it, a good smith
    would resolve that issue. Lord knows I would not except that low level of quality.

    There has to be a reasonably simple solution. Higher powered extractor springs, retrofitting some one else's extractor in the bolt,
    using a dual extractor design, a redesigned hook profile. I doesn't mean that accuracy needs to be compromised.

    The Springfield design in post #29 is going to extract about any case. The finger is very robust and cant be moved with your
    thumb but the cam action of the bolt has no problem doing it.

    When people buy cars and there is the slightest thing wrong with it, the first thing they do is expect it to be resolved.

    If the tooling that I designed for Ford motor or GM failed once a day for only five minutes, they would never except the lost production.
    Imagine the assembly line being shut down for just five minutes. All of those people getting paid while doing nothing....
    Sorry FOMOCO .... It's just the nature of building cars every 54 seconds..... Just get over it.....
    The inability of a pure bemchrest 22lr to extract an unfired round is not considered a problem within the realms of remfire benchrest. It's an expected condition. I have never had any reason to extract an unfired round from any of my benchrest 22s, but there are safe ways to do so if I absolutely had too. Remfire extractors are designed to extract fired rounds. Increasing extractor spring pressure can cause problems with bolt closing, case rim deformation and possible slam fires.
     

    22lfb

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    When people buy cars and there is the slightest thing wrong with it, the first thing they do is expect it to be resolved.

    But do you really complain about the lack of trunk space AFTER you bought your exotic Super Car? Horses for courses... You create an excellent shooting match rifle with the highest possible accuracy & perfection, a superb shooting machine. You sacrifice comfort. Same with a race car. To achieve the maximum track performance, you have to make drawbacks and discard some stuff that's expected to be present on a grocery getter.
     

    AirGunShawn

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    First off.... you are all entitled to your own opinion and expectations.
    And we all have different views of expectable quality. If your happy with your guns not extracting live rounds, that's fine by me.

    I don't often offer this information up but I have designed things for over 35 years....
    I worked for COMAU and they were the largest tooling supplier to the automotive industry in North America.
    They had over 1000 mechanical designers and engineers at some point.
    I have also done plenty of machining. And God knows, too much welding.

    My official title was design / check. If one of my peers sent through a design that failed to function it would never get into
    the build process. I would never try and convince anyone that it was a design compromise that had to be made.

    My company has released tools that malfunctioned and I was tasked with fixing them. My response to the customer
    is something like; I'm sorry, that is our screw up but I'm going to fix it for you. It wasn't my tool but I took person ownership
    over it's resolution. It has never been nor have I ever felt compelled to help some else save face.

    To say that the inability to extract live rounds is by design is crazy. It's lack of good design.
    I suspect that the smith is focused on accuracy and doesn't feel that extraction is in his scope of work. $$
    I'm surprised that some of you are defending the work that someone else has done. I think trunk space in a super car is a ridiculous
    comparison. If you spend $110,000 on a 2019 Corvette, all you are buying is the body style, horse power and handling. We all know that.

    Go back to post #29 and look at the 1922 Springfield extractor.
    Don't you think that style of design could be used in your bench guns?
    I see this from a designer and machinist point of view. It isn't a big deal to resolve people.

    You can make the comment below about what extractors are designed to do but your just saying it in hopes of supporting your
    point of view. You have no facts to back up that statement. Show me data from any firearms manufacture that supports your assertion
    and I will gladly apologize.
    "Remfire extractors are designed to extract fired rounds. Increasing extractor spring pressure can cause problems with bolt closing, case rim deformation and possible slam fires."

    Your comment below sounds strange to me... you have never gotten a single unfired round stuck yet everyone else does and it is an expected
    condition in pure BR guns. You can only get the unfired rounds out from the breach or sticking something down the muzzle.
    After an hour picking at the breach, people will start to consider the front.
    "I have never had any reason to extract an unfired round from any of my benchrest 22s, but there are safe ways to do so if I absolutely had too."

    My unyielding standards apply to scuba gear. climbing gear, hang-gliding gear and it's parachute. And of course work.
    If you were ever to get any of my designs, you would be happy that I have them since ultimately you benefit from them.
    The benefit I get is something money cant buy.... the pride of knowing I did my absolute best work. For you, the customer.

    But hey, everyone doesn't share my ideals.
     
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    handfull

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    My main concern is/was that I plan to use this gun in NRL/PRS style matches. You must move often during course of fire and the bolt must be back when you do so. If the round does not eject, I will now have to drop mag (or misfeed when bolt is closed), close bolt, reinsert mag. All of that takes time which is in short supply in those types of matches. I do not plan to use it for benchrest. Maybe I bought the wrong type of gun for this type of match, but my 2 buddies have the identical BA and neither have this issue.
     

    littlepod

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    My main concern is/was that I plan to use this gun in NRL/PRS style matches. You must move often during course of fire and the bolt must be back when you do so. If the round does not eject, I will now have to drop mag (or misfeed when bolt is closed), close bolt, reinsert mag. All of that takes time which is in short supply in those types of matches. I do not plan to use it for benchrest. Maybe I bought the wrong type of gun for this type of match, but my 2 buddies have the identical BA and neither have this issue.

    Run match ammo like SK/Eley and see which one live ejects and run that one. My match chamber on 10/22 wouldn't eject live CCI SV rounds, but ran SK Standard Plus like a champ.

    For my Vudoo I don't even bother running anything else but Lapua/SK ammo, so no concern there..
     
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    Boxerglocker

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    My main concern is/was that I plan to use this gun in NRL/PRS style matches. You must move often during course of fire and the bolt must be back when you do so. If the round does not eject, I will now have to drop mag (or misfeed when bolt is closed), close bolt, reinsert mag. All of that takes time which is in short supply in those types of matches. I do not plan to use it for benchrest. Maybe I bought the wrong type of gun for this type of match, but my 2 buddies have the identical BA and neither have this issue.
    Don't even bother with lesser ammo in match chambered barrels. Your not the first one to have unfired round extraction issues in a match chambered barrel. I have one barrel that with CCI SV the extractor will deform the rim before it let's go. That's how hard the bullet is pushed into the rifling. Lapua, Eley or SK no issues.
     

    handfull

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    Tried SK standard and match as well as Aguila match this past weekend, none would extract
     

    AirGunShawn

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    My main concern is/was that I plan to use this gun in NRL/PRS style matches. You must move often during course of fire and the bolt must be back when you do so. If the round does not eject, I will now have to drop mag (or misfeed when bolt is closed), close bolt, reinsert mag. All of that takes time which is in short supply in those types of matches. I do not plan to use it for benchrest. Maybe I bought the wrong type of gun for this type of match, but my 2 buddies have the identical BA and neither have this issue.
    Handfull,

    I don't have a dog in the race so I don't need to defend the Bergara, or anything else for that matter.
    My B14R has no problem with anything I feed it.

    I doubt you got the wrong gun for your NRL/PRS stuff. It will likely be a surprisingly small detail and simple fix. Have you ever
    tried someone else's bolt to extract the bad round?
    To me, that would suggest an extractor spring or shape issue. I just looked at my bolt and putt a case on it's face.
    Both extractors touched the side of the case.

    You may even go so far as to deactivate some rounds to intentionally test it. An overnight soak in some WD-40 will likely do it.
    The dimension between my fingers' is .662" to the outside edges. That may help you determine if you have any particulates
    under the extractor arm in front of the pivot that keeps it from completely closing.

    I used my trigger scale to estimate the right hand extractor force. From it's closed, empty position, it took 2 pounds 12 ounces
    to deflect it approximately .030" That moves it's tip so that it is coincident to the edge of the case base 3 o'clock position as shown.
    You should get similar values.

    Hopefully that information may help you.

    Don't give up...you can resolve it.

    Good luck.
     

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    AirGunShawn

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    My main concern is/was that I plan to use this gun in NRL/PRS style matches. You must move often during course of fire and the bolt must be back when you do so. If the round does not eject, I will now have to drop mag (or misfeed when bolt is closed), close bolt, reinsert mag. All of that takes time which is in short supply in those types of matches. I do not plan to use it for benchrest. Maybe I bought the wrong type of gun for this type of match, but my 2 buddies have the identical BA and neither have this issue.
    Handfull,

    I don't have a dog in the race so I don't need to defend the Bergara, or anything else for that matter.
    My B14R has no problem with anything I feed it.

    I doubt you got the wrong gun for your NRL/PRS stuff. It will likely be a surprisingly small detail and simple fix. Have you ever
    tried someone else's bolt to extract the bad round?
    To me, that would suggest an extractor spring or shape issue. I just looked at my bolt and putt a case on it's face.
    Both extractors touched the side of the case.

    You may even go so far as to deactivate some rounds to intentionally test it. An overnight soak in some WD-40 will likely do it.
    The dimension between my fingers' is .662" to the outside edges. That may help you determine if you have any particulates
    under the extractor arm in front of the pivot that keeps it from completely closing.

    I used my trigger scale to estimate the right hand extractor force. From it's closed, empty position, it took 2 pounds 12 ounces
    to deflect it approximately .030" That moves it's tip so that it is coincident to the edge of the case base 3 o'clock position as shown.
    You should get similar values.

    Hopefully that information may help you.

    Don't give up...you can resolve it.

    Good luck.
     

    littlepod

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    My Tikka had issues extracting live rounds once, and it ended up being that the extractor bottom right corner was slightly chipped rounded off so it wasn't able to apply the full force before slipping off the round. I swapped that extractor part and it ended up working just fine.

    B14r is a pretty popular rifle so next up is to compare with someone else at the range/area and see.
     

    handfull

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    Quick update. Pulled extractor spring, stretched it a little and put back in. Cycles sk std and long range fine now, so I have a pretty good idea on how to solve now. Thanks for all the help.
     
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    021411

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    Quick update. Pulled extractor spring, stretched it a little and put back in. Cycles sk std and long range fine now, so I have a pretty good idea on how to solve now. Thanks for all the help.
    The extractor claw or the tensioner claw? My extractor claw was pretty firm already. Tensioner was soft.
     

    handfull

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    Tbh not sure. It was the weaker one, by far. Other is very stiff already.
     

    AirGunShawn

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    I wish you would have measured your spring.
    McMaster Carr has springs that are .12 OD and of various wire diameters.
    I would call the extractor finger the one on the right hand side. It is the stiffer one of the two by at least twice the force.
    The left side I would describe as a stabilizing finger. It holds the cartridge and spent case in line with the bolt axis during
    operation.

    As a side bar, I would suggest that people don't put an #8-32 plunger in their trigger. Among other things, it nicks the safety
    ball detent. I still feel the #6-32 is your best option If all you want to do is modify the factory unit. I will be posting photo's of
    the B14R trigger soon. The sears of the B14R are not particularly well defined. They have very slight radii.
    Tbh not sure. It was the weaker one, by far. Other is very stiff already.
     

    AirGunShawn

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    The B14R extractor spring is .255 long x .1185" diameter with .0215 wire. The hole in the bolt is about .127" diameter and .323" deep.
    If you look for a new spring, remember that they do not have a precision OD and when compressed the diameter actually
    gets a little larger since they unwind. McMaster Carr does not have any suitable springs. The one below shown in blue MIGHT work.
    It's .120" OD x .025" long x.024" wire diameter. It would be close in the OD. You could also get one in .023" wire.
    You may also be able to use the safety detent spring from an AR-15. Shown in the second photo. Since I have them, that would be my
    first approach to making the extractor grip more robust. Even if it were simply to test the theory. I don't feel stretching the spring has
    any long term value that you should count on!
    It hasn't changed any of the springs physical characteristics. I think a better fix would be some #00 washer in the hole to
    increase the actual pre-load force.

    The extractor hook end is about 10* but when in place it is nearly square to the cartridge base. It's edges are cut sharp and crisp
    as I would expect them to be. At least mine are....


    Just suggestions...
     

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