• What Optic Hill Would You Die On? - Only a Few Hours Left To Enter!

    We all have strong opinions about optics, now’s your chance to share yours. What’s the one thing you firmly believe? Winner gets new limited edition Hide merch. Remember, subscribers have a better chance of winning!

    Join contest Subscribe

Bergara issues

Grizzgup

Private
Minuteman
Mar 2, 2025
14
6
PA
Hello all,

I have a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5cm. I’m loading 41.5G H4350 under 140g Berger Hybrid using starline LR brass. At 100 yards it’s shooting one hole. At 200 it’s shooting 4”. What’s going on? The only thing I can figure is it doesn’t like that node past 100yds. I’m 15-20k off jam (anywhere in that range holds great at 100yds) which is why I thought it’d do well at 200. Any thoughts would be appreciated
 
  • Haha
Reactions: 6brshooter
What optic are you using ... and have you checked the mounting ... and have you tried a different optic? Frankly, "same hole" at 100-yards and "4 inch groups" at 200 yards doesn't feel like it's a reloading technique or component issue. But that's just my experiences. Final question ... are you checking velocity, and if so, how is it tracking on these reloads? If you're getting stable velocities, then this is even weirder.
 
If it's really shooting large sample size groups well at 100 yards, it should also shoot the same MOA sized groups at 200 yards. It's not an issue with the rifle or the load.

A large extreme spread in velocity won't show vertical dispersion until several hundred yards out.

It could be Parallax error in your scope, you should check that. The last place we want to check is the shooter itself, but that's often the cause.

I used to shoot bug holes at 100 with my AI, but often times 2-3" at 300. Like you, I was convinced that there was something wrong with my handloads. I spent hours at both the reloading bench and the range trying to figure things out.

Once I really learned and started to focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship, groups at distance fell right into place. At this point, they are the same size MOA, if not smaller at 300 and 600 for me. Same rifle, same hand loads, same barrel, same everything.
 
Last edited:
I’m using a Burris XTR2 scope. I’ve not had good luck with any Burris (got a killer deal on this one which is why I’m using it). Everything is tight. Maybe I need to focus on the fundamentals more. My best friend is a police sniper, so I might have him shot if and see if it’s all over the place for him too. If so maybe I’ll call Burris.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Maggot and ShtrRdy
How is your shooting at longer ranges with other rifles. I was wondering if the rifle, handloads and scope all check out, you might be psyching your self out.

One other thought, shoot one round groups at 100 yards. You might be getting a bit of keyholing that is not detectable in large groups at 100 yards. I would suspect that would show up (keyholing) at 200 yards, but one never knows. Also, if nothing else is found, check the muzzle crown.
 
How is your shooting at longer ranges with other rifles. I was wondering if the rifle, handloads and scope all check out, you might be psyching your self out.

One other thought, shoot one round groups at 100 yards. You might be getting a bit of keyholing that is not detectable in large groups at 100 yards. I would suspect that would show up (keyholing) at 200 yards, but one never knows. Also, if nothing else is found, check the muzzle crown.
 
Here’s my RPR in 300 PRC the day before at 200
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2351.jpeg
    IMG_2351.jpeg
    2.3 MB · Views: 13
  • Like
Reactions: Dead Eye Dick
There aren't that many things that could cause a "one hole" load at 100 yards to blow up to a 2 MOA load at 200 yards.

1) As @matt33 mentions, parallax would be the first thing I'd look at. While 100 to 200 yards isn't a large yardage difference, it could be enough in parallax adjustment that if either you're off in dialing it in or the scope is screwed up in that regard, that it could be a sizable portion of what you're seeing. I'm still skeptical that parallax could be so far off that it would be entirely responsible, but I'd start there.

To Test:
First, make sure you've got your parallax set correctly. Move your head side to side and up and down. The reticle should not move in relation to the target as you move your head. Adjust it until it doesn't.

Second, change the parallax relatively significantly and see if the scope's behavior changes (it should). If it doesn't, you may have a parallax issue with the scope.

Third, put another scope on it and test.

2) It could be you. Granted, if you're getting a one-hole group at 100 yards, you should be able to do well at 200. However, if your one-hole groups are from 3 shots, try 10 or 20 at each range and see what happens. Note that when I shoot for groups at 100 (or 200, or 300 - any range where I can see the bullet holes through the scope), I use orange dot stickers ($6.99 for 1000 1" dots at Amazon) and always dial in like 1/2 a mil to one side or another. The reason for this is that you always want a clean point of aim. Otherwise you end up sort of chasing the group, which opens everything up.

To Test:
First, are you zooming in with your scope when you go to 200? Try zooming out. It seems counter intuitive, but I find that more I zoom out (within reason and only out so far), the tighter my groups get. This is because when you're zoomed in more, you tend to chase the wobble. Not that this would account for everything you're seeing, but it could contribute.

Second, find someone who really knows precision shooting to check out everything. No offense to your law enforcement friend, but some of the law enforcement folks I've met that have had sniper training are not what I'd call experts in precision shooting. Know that most sniper engagements are less than 200 yards - training for that vs. hitting a 1 MOA target at a mile are two completely different regimens and skillsets. Maybe your friend is good, but ideally you want someone who has had a lot of experience with precision shooting across a number of different rifles.

With all that said, it's entirely possible that something with the bullet-load-barrel combo could cause a load that works at 100 to fall apart at longer ranges. This was proven to me in the first long range training I ever took - and Jeff Siewert devotes some pages to the subject in his book. However, it's highly unlikely that with today's quality components in a modern rifle you'd be creating a condition that would cause this - AND - while I've seen groups fall apart at like 500-600 yards, getting such a massive degradation while going from 100 to 200 feels like it has to be something else.

Lastly, while I doubt this is causing your issue, Starline brass works fine in an AR. For a precision bolt rifle, get some Lapua...
 
  • Like
Reactions: matt33
There aren't that many things that could cause a "one hole" load at 100 yards to blow up to a 2 MOA load at 200 yards.

1) As @matt33 mentions, parallax would be the first thing I'd look at. While 100 to 200 yards isn't a large yardage difference, it could be enough in parallax adjustment that if either you're off in dialing it in or the scope is screwed up in that regard, that it could be a sizable portion of what you're seeing. I'm still skeptical that parallax could be so far off that it would be entirely responsible, but I'd start there.

To Test:
First, make sure you've got your parallax set correctly. Move your head side to side and up and down. The reticle should not move in relation to the target as you move your head. Adjust it until it doesn't.

Second, change the parallax relatively significantly and see if the scope's behavior changes (it should). If it doesn't, you may have a parallax issue with the scope.

Third, put another scope on it and test.

2) It could be you. Granted, if you're getting a one-hole group at 100 yards, you should be able to do well at 200. However, if your one-hole groups are from 3 shots, try 10 or 20 at each range and see what happens. Note that when I shoot for groups at 100 (or 200, or 300 - any range where I can see the bullet holes through the scope), I use orange dot stickers ($6.99 for 1000 1" dots at Amazon) and always dial in like 1/2 a mil to one side or another. The reason for this is that you always want a clean point of aim. Otherwise you end up sort of chasing the group, which opens everything up.

To Test:
First, are you zooming in with your scope when you go to 200? Try zooming out. It seems counter intuitive, but I find that more I zoom out (within reason and only out so far), the tighter my groups get. This is because when you're zoomed in more, you tend to chase the wobble. Not that this would account for everything you're seeing, but it could contribute.

Second, find someone who really knows precision shooting to check out everything. No offense to your law enforcement friend, but some of the law enforcement folks I've met that have had sniper training are not what I'd call experts in precision shooting. Know that most sniper engagements are less than 200 yards - training for that vs. hitting a 1 MOA target at a mile are two completely different regimens and skillsets. Maybe your friend is good, but ideally you want someone who has had a lot of experience with precision shooting across a number of different rifles.

With all that said, it's entirely possible that something with the bullet-load-barrel combo could cause a load that works at 100 to fall apart at longer ranges. This was proven to me in the first long range training I ever took - and Jeff Siewert devotes some pages to the subject in his book. However, it's highly unlikely that with today's quality components in a modern rifle you'd be creating a condition that would cause this - AND - while I've seen groups fall apart at like 500-600 yards, getting such a massive degradation while going from 100 to 200 feels like it has to be something else.

Lastly, while I doubt this is causing your issue, Starline brass works fine in an AR. For a precision bolt rifle, get some Lapua...
Thanks. I’ll check the parallax and see if that’s off. As I said, and in my last post you can see that I was shooting pretty decently (for me) at 200yds with my RPR in300 PRC with Peterson brass. I noticed I was getting ES’s in the high 70’s too. I wonder if this 5x fired brass is toast. Though I doubt it because I anneal after each firing and there’s no signs of head separation etc. parallax is definitely a consideration. So is this darn Burris scope, I really don’t trust that brand. But it’s one of their higher end models and I figured it’d be ok. Maybe I was wrong. Though if it was I’d think the issue would show up at 100 yds too. I’ll report back next weekend with what I find.
 
I appreciate all the advice guys! The parallax checks out according to the test from that was posed in the thread. I’m going to try some sierra match king 142g and see if that makes a difference. I know sometimes a particular rifle just doesn’t like a bullet. I ended up getting a box of the match king X’s that I think are relatively new to the market. And I know that means starting from scratch for a load development, but I guess that’s how it goes sometimes.

I also loaded up 10 rounds of the Berger 10k off the lands to see if it likes less jump at longer ranges.

I’ll report back after the weekend to let you know how it went.
 
There aren't that many things that could cause a "one hole" load at 100 yards to blow up to a 2 MOA load at 200 yards.

1) As @matt33 mentions, parallax would be the first thing I'd look at. While 100 to 200 yards isn't a large yardage difference, it could be enough in parallax adjustment that if either you're off in dialing it in or the scope is screwed up in that regard, that it could be a sizable portion of what you're seeing. I'm still skeptical that parallax could be so far off that it would be entirely responsible, but I'd start there.

To Test:
First, make sure you've got your parallax set correctly. Move your head side to side and up and down. The reticle should not move in relation to the target as you move your head. Adjust it until it doesn't.

Second, change the parallax relatively significantly and see if the scope's behavior changes (it should). If it doesn't, you may have a parallax issue with the scope.

Third, put another scope on it and test.

2) It could be you. Granted, if you're getting a one-hole group at 100 yards, you should be able to do well at 200. However, if your one-hole groups are from 3 shots, try 10 or 20 at each range and see what happens. Note that when I shoot for groups at 100 (or 200, or 300 - any range where I can see the bullet holes through the scope), I use orange dot stickers ($6.99 for 1000 1" dots at Amazon) and always dial in like 1/2 a mil to one side or another. The reason for this is that you always want a clean point of aim. Otherwise you end up sort of chasing the group, which opens everything up.

To Test:
First, are you zooming in with your scope when you go to 200? Try zooming out. It seems counter intuitive, but I find that more I zoom out (within reason and only out so far), the tighter my groups get. This is because when you're zoomed in more, you tend to chase the wobble. Not that this would account for everything you're seeing, but it could contribute.

Second, find someone who really knows precision shooting to check out everything. No offense to your law enforcement friend, but some of the law enforcement folks I've met that have had sniper training are not what I'd call experts in precision shooting. Know that most sniper engagements are less than 200 yards - training for that vs. hitting a 1 MOA target at a mile are two completely different regimens and skillsets. Maybe your friend is good, but ideally you want someone who has had a lot of experience with precision shooting across a number of different rifles.

With all that said, it's entirely possible that something with the bullet-load-barrel combo could cause a load that works at 100 to fall apart at longer ranges. This was proven to me in the first long range training I ever took - and Jeff Siewert devotes some pages to the subject in his book. However, it's highly unlikely that with today's quality components in a modern rifle you'd be creating a condition that would cause this - AND - while I've seen groups fall apart at like 500-600 yards, getting such a massive degradation while going from 100 to 200 feels like it has to be something else.

Lastly, while I doubt this is causing your issue, Starline brass works fine in an AR. For a precision bolt rifle, get some Lapua...
Thank you for the advice. I tried the parallax test and it passed. So I don’t think it’s that.

And I know what you mean about police not always being top notch shooters, however my friend is very involved in shooting and reloading and is very good at both. His suggestion is that the rifle might just not like Berger bullets. But he’s biased against burger for some reason. I am going to try some sierras and see if that helps. I know that’s starting from scratch, but it is what it is.

Thanks again for all the advice!
 
Hello all,

I have a Bergara B14 HMR in 6.5cm. I’m loading 41.5G H4350 under 140g Berger Hybrid using starline LR brass. At 100 yards it’s shooting one hole. At 200 it’s shooting 4”. What’s going on? The only thing I can figure is it doesn’t like that node past 100yds. I’m 15-20k off jam (anywhere in that range holds great at 100yds) which is why I thought it’d do well at 200. Any thoughts would be appreciated
We have a saying where I work. If you don't have photos it didn't happen.

Show us a photo of the group at 100 and the group at 200. Maybe fresh eyes can pick up some evidence of instability. Shape of the group can show certain shooter errors as well.

Also, tell us about the prone position you shoot in. Is there any difference between your 100 and 200 positions? Bipod, rest, surface, wind?
 
We have a saying where I work. If you don't have photos it didn't happen.

Show us a photo of the group at 100 and the group at 200. Maybe fresh eyes can pick up some evidence of instability. Shape of the group can show certain shooter errors as well.

Also, tell us about the prone position you shoot in. Is there any difference between your 100 and 200 positions? Bipod, rest, surface, wind?
No difference between position, range, etc. weather conditions were similar (about the same temp but not 100% sure). The 100yard target is a 10 shot group.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2353.jpeg
    IMG_2353.jpeg
    2.3 MB · Views: 14
  • IMG_2327.jpeg
    IMG_2327.jpeg
    2.4 MB · Views: 14
I would expect a proper load, shot from a good rifle, in a good position to have a circular shaped group. Even barely stable and unstable bullets will give a circular shaped group

Your groups seem very vertical. Even the shots at 100, apart from two, are very vertical. If you are using a bipod, maybe you are getting bipod bounce? I have see a few people get a lot of vertical when the bipod rests on bare concrete.

If using a bipod, remove it and try the exercise again with a sandbag or x-bag rest.

If you are using a sandbag or SEB type rest, I'm stumped. Apart from a load with a very bad ES or very slow velocity, I cannot think of anything else that will cause your results.
 
  • Like
Reactions: carbonbased
If it's really shooting large sample size groups well at 100 yards, it should also shoot the same MOA sized groups at 200 yards. It's not an issue with the rifle or the load.

A large extreme spread in velocity won't show vertical dispersion until several hundred yards out.

It could be Parallax error in your scope, you should check that. The last place we want to check is the shooter itself, but that's often the cause.

I used to shoot bug holes at 100 with my AI, but often times 2-3" at 300. Like you, I was convinced that there was something wrong with my handloads. I spent hours at both the reloading bench and the range trying to figure things out.

Once I really learned and started to focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship, groups at distance fell right into place. At this point, they are the same size MOA, if not smaller at 300 and 600 for me. Same rifle, same hand loads, same barrel, same everything.
“ A large extreme spread in velocity won’t show vertical dispersion until several hundred yards out. “ Gospel. At 500 yards with factory ammo, my chronograph helped me to be convicted in that !
 
  • Like
Reactions: matt33
When I have quite a vertical spread with a bipod or front sand bag, it’s usually a problem with my rear squeeze bag. Are you the type that just plops the butt into the bag and barely squeezes, or do you actively support the butt with the off hand?

I used to be the former and would have more vertical issues. Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t pull the rear bag off the ground to support the butt, obv, but I do use some upward lift as well as a squeeze to shrink the heartbeat reticle bounce.

This guy has what I think is the best tutorial in bipod use. Changed the bipod game for for me, anyway.



Not saying this is your only issue here, but it’s worth exploring.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheBigCountry