Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

[Oguruma]

This is a bit of a hypothetical, but let's say you get to choose a bullet for combat use. You want something that is as lethal as possible at 300-500 meters in 5.56. We are assuming that the Hague/Geneva convention (BS) rules don't apply and you can use hollow/soft point bullets. We'll say in this instance is being used out of an M16A4.

What would be the best bullet? I would think that the 77/69 grain SMKs would be the best since they are going to maintain their velocity at longer ranges, but maybe some of the soft points, even though they won't maintain their energy as well would prove more lethal since they have a stronger case for better terminal ballistics at reduced velocity.

Any input?

 

[MLC]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

some discussion that is relevant

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

For 300-500 yards, the 69ers are just fine, for anything longer you should duplicate Mk262 with 77 SMK.

BTW the US DOD poistion on the Hauge convention is that OTM bullets are not open tipped to expand (and thereby have increased lethality), but that they are open tipped so that the bullet can be pushed out of the bullet ogive forming die(s).

 

[JSTARSZ]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

how about a Barnes 70 GR TSX or 75 GR Swift Scirocco... I like the accuracy of the 77 SMK but not necessarily the killing power.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

If it's in a bolt gun and precise accuracy/lethality is wanted I would say use the 77 smk.

If it's 500 and in and still have acceptable accuracy maybe out of a semi-auto I would use a Barnes.

I run the Barnes triple shock 50 grain in my short barrel for home defense.

The Hornady Precision Tap T2 is also very nice. Accurate as all get out and is loaded to 5.56 pressure. Very good terminal ballistics but harder to find.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For 300-500 yards, the 69ers are just fine, for anything longer you should duplicate Mk262 with 77 SMK.

BTW the US DOD poistion on the Hauge convention is that OTM bullets are not open tipped to expand (and thereby have increased lethality), <span style="font-weight: bold">but that they are open tipped so that the bullet can be pushed out of the bullet ogive forming die(s).</span></div></div>

The first part of your statement is correct. However the second part is not about manufacturing or they would say this about all fmj's. The open tip is there for the ballistic advantge of reaching long range accurately. At the intended ranges, the bullets don't open up like a hunting grade open tip.

 

[jbailey]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

70gr Berger VLD. Same BC as the 77gr SMK, you get it moving 100-150fps faster and its offers the superior terminal ballistics of a VLD. All around superior to 77gr SMK/ Nosler CC or 75gr Hornady. Load w/ approx 25grs of RL15 or Varget and you are ready to go.

 

[SS-8541-dono]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

i use this load out to 600 yards and have seen groups under 1moa at 600 with this load in a remington 700 sps varmint with a b&c stock.

60g nosler ballistic tip spitzer
21.5 g re-7
remington case
fed small rifle primer
1.90 coal measured at ogive
aprox 2950 fps

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

I am tired and don't have time to Google-fu an epic facepalm, pity.
I would say 70gr Berger VLD but I actually read your post and doubt that you could get the Berger to fit the magazine. This leaves the 69gr and 77gr offerings designed for magazine feeding....take your pick.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">70gr Berger VLD. Same BC as the 77gr SMK, you get it moving 100-150fps faster and its offers the superior terminal ballistics of a VLD. All around superior to 77gr SMK/ Nosler CC or 75gr Hornady. Load w/ approx 25grs of RL15 or Varget and you are ready to go.
</div></div>

It's a nice thought. However, the ogive on a 70 gr. Berger VLD runs about .520" Being that that must be seat out in front of the neck for safety reasons, you then end up with a coal of 2.280".

This bullet falls into the same category as the 75/80 gr. A-max's, 80/90 gr. SIE's. Great ballistics, but won't fit in a magazine and therefore loses it's purpose in this subject.

 

[jbailey]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's a nice thought. However, the ogive on a 70 gr. Berger VLD runs about .520" Being that that must be seat out in front of the neck for safety reasons, you then end up with a coal of 2.280".

This bullet falls into the same category as the 75/80 gr. A-max's, 80/90 gr. SIE's. Great ballistics, but won't fit in a magazine and therefore loses it's purpose in this subject.
</div></div>

I don't think the ogive is that long. I will have to check Litz tonight. I do have a 70gr Berger VLD load developed that is 2.26" and its great out of my carbine and my 20" AR from mags. The ogive is completely above of the neck and I don't think I have a safety issue with it. At least I hope I don't

 

[jbailey]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's a nice thought. However, the ogive on a 70 gr. Berger VLD runs about .520" Being that that must be seat out in front of the neck for safety reasons, you then end up with a coal of 2.280".

</div></div>

OK, check my read on this, but the 70gr Berger's ogive is 0.471":

Berger Tech data

Think I'm reading this data correctly.

 

[armorpl8chikn]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

I have some 70VLD and 75VLD at home and will measure them tonight if I am not too tired when I get home...and if CRS doesn't rob me of my thoughts between now and then. I am now curious.

 

[Burleyboy]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

If you're only talking out to 500 meters the new 53 grain Vmax is worth a look. I've been shooting them out of my RRA predator pursuit 20" at about 3200 MV. About 1/2 moa and seem to fly a bit flatter and hit harder then other lighter weight bullets.

I like the 75g amax but as stated above it doesn't fit in an ar mag. My 223 AI on a 700 with a modified mag box likes the 75's at 2.43 coal. I've run the 75g Hor BTHP from an AR mag OK>

Bb

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It's a nice thought. However, the ogive on a 70 gr. Berger VLD runs about .520" Being that that must be seat out in front of the neck for safety reasons, you then end up with a coal of 2.280".

</div></div>

OK, check my read on this, but the 70gr Berger's ogive is 0.471":

Berger Tech data

Think I'm reading this data correctly.

</div></div>

I read your read the way you thought you read it. That would leave exactly .029" between the tip and the end of the magazine. If you trimmed and finished every tip that would work.

Anyhow, I'm also trying to make heads or tales of their 'nose length' numbers. It would seem to me that a 12R ogive would be longer than a 7.5R ogive. But, right above the 70 gr. VLD they have the nose length of the 7.5R@ .526. I don't know how they are measuring but I'm pretty sure the 55 FBHP's I've shot all fit very well into my 5.56/.223 magazines. And, the 70 gr. VLD's didn't.

Again, not that it's a bad idea. It's just the AR-15 platform is pretty length restricting in regards to these high BC bullets.

 

[jbailey]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

I just checked Litz and he has the 70gr Berger VLD ogive length at 0.471". Ogive length is only indirectly related to ogive radius. Ogive radius is the measurement of the entire circle that the ogive would make if it was complete (whereas on the bullet we only see a small part of it). Its typically expressed in calibers, not units. I'm not expressing myself very clearly, but I think I'm getting the general idea across on ogive radius.

Anyway, the 70gr VLD works great for me and I'm just passing that along. Use it as you wish

 

[jbailey]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

Oh, BTW, Sandwarrior -- thanks for your service SGT! CIB = lots of respect from me!

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

SMK 77, 24 to 24.5 grains of Varget. I've shot both loads (24 and 24.5)and stuck with 24. 24.5 was 50 fps faster with the same group size. The 77SMK, 75 Hornady and 24ish grains of RL15 or Varget are fairly standard loads out to 600.

The only bullet I can think of that won't work is the 75 grain AMAX. Too long for the mag.

 

[wfjames22]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

What about a 60gr Vmax or 60gr Nosler ballistic tip? 600 may be on the outside of the usable range, but 300-500 would be golden. Lots of destruction with these bullets when they hit varmints, prairie dogs hate them from what Ive seen. I usually shoot 50gr Vmax in my ARs for varmints but I have thought about trying some 60 grainers.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Best (combat) 5.56 load for 300+ Meters?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JamesBailey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just checked Litz and he has the 70gr Berger VLD ogive length at 0.471". Ogive length is only indirectly related to ogive radius. Ogive radius is the measurement of the entire circle that the ogive would make if it was complete (whereas on the bullet we only see a small part of it). Its typically expressed in calibers, not units. I'm not expressing myself very clearly, but I think I'm getting the general idea across on ogive radius.

Anyway, the 70gr VLD works great for me and I'm just passing that along. Use it as you wish

</div></div>

JamesBailey,

Thank you regarding my service. Lot's of members here have done that. Many surpass my own service here so much it astounds me. True heroes each and everyone serving today. And, especially in the last ten years.

Anyhow, It seems to me when I last loaded the 70 gr. Bergers, they were a really tight fit to get into the magazines. Great bullets for ballistics no doubt, but really tight in that scenario. It wouldn't hurt me to see Berger come out with a high 60-something grain, VLD that loaded a little more easily into a 5.56 mag by shortening the bearing length of the bullet.

I may be wrong but I'm thinking that's why I went with thousands of 77 gr. SIE and 75 gr. HRNDY. Availability and easy fit.

This could be done though. It may take some processes but don't fear. It is doable. Getting the national ballistic system to move isn't an easy one. When I get a load worked up I'll go back and see how this does.

And, BTW, I'm fully aware of what an ogive means to overall or even ogive length. Some ogives are 'tangent', some are secant, and some are wildcat/modified to suit a builder. It just seems a little strange to me that a bullet built for length, the 70 gr. VLD (12R) is outreached by the 55 gr. (7/6 pzmj