on mechanical RCBS M500 you can easily see the difference of one kernel 0,02gr of powder. on bigger kernels more...
so why you need 0,001gr accuracy? to select kernels ??
so why you need 0,001gr accuracy? to select kernels ??
- Thread starter rady
- Start date
You could weight sort your kernels just like brass or bullets.
Throw the rest nonconforming powder on the lawn for fertilizer.
Throw the rest nonconforming powder on the lawn for fertilizer.
People have been known to get lab grade sieves and sift their powders. No clue how effective it is. That might be taking it a little too far.
There will always be some that take it further than reality deems necessary.
My gear only goes to 0.1 and if I could get to 0.05 maybe I would pay the price.
I can on a bench with bags and no wind see the difference in 0.1gr if having a good day. Some days it's not happening since I'm old and I discount results for that day if I continue to shoot at all.
Sometimes if I need the test I let a competent rso take up the slack.
On occasion that makes me feel good about my shooting.
Can experts shoot 0.01g and see it on paper maybe, 0.05 probably.
Anything past that I pull bullshit card.
I over polish my brass since I like shiny brass and I can tell the wife I'm buisy .
My gear only goes to 0.1 and if I could get to 0.05 maybe I would pay the price.
I can on a bench with bags and no wind see the difference in 0.1gr if having a good day. Some days it's not happening since I'm old and I discount results for that day if I continue to shoot at all.
Sometimes if I need the test I let a competent rso take up the slack.
On occasion that makes me feel good about my shooting.
Can experts shoot 0.01g and see it on paper maybe, 0.05 probably.
Anything past that I pull bullshit card.
I over polish my brass since I like shiny brass and I can tell the wife I'm buisy .
I ordered the complete V3 kit from CE products and couldn’t be happier. It comes with the A&D scale, powder throw and trickler for $1000. I had to wait for about 10 weeks but definitely worth it. I understand that they have a new revision coming, (V4) or maybe it’s already released.
Every flyer is a flyer for a reason. You can quote me on that.
You can never shoot better than your rifle can.
Who cares about the "average shooter"? My advice was not intended for the average shooter. It is intended for guys who are among the best or at least would like to become among the best.
As I stated earlier, I am Canadian. There's no reason you would have heard of me in the states since I am not registered with the NRA. Some of the guys out at Washtenaw might remember I stopped in one day for a shoot, but the border hastle wasn't an experience I would like to repeat, so I never went back.
Can't believe this guy is still at it.
Go buy an ar stoner barrel for your upper and if you can't out shoot that you suck worse than we thought.
Yeah, and still has yet to answer any questions about his background or provide data to back up his claims. Serious troll. I bet his eyes are brown too.
No need for an expensive calibration weigh for our purposes. The important thing is to use the same weight for every calibration. If you really need a reference weight, you can borrow a very good weight, weigh your cheap weight and put in the correct offset.
but I think you need very good calibration weight; but it doesnt need to be expencive.
i have made my weights from inox wire for weilding, but I weigh them on very accurate lab scale, and repeat that once a year (and they doesnt change), and I manipulate them only with pincers, NEVER with my fingers.
I think that it is very important to have reference very precise and every time the same, so you can be 100% sure that if scale doesnt show the right value of your reference weight, it's scale's fault...
I use a Hornady Lock and Load digital scale with no issues.
Got tired of manual drop and trickle. Been a while since my hornady shelled out.
CM Lite inbound was on sale at Natches. Doubt it can drift more than the hornady did.
CM Lite inbound was on sale at Natches. Doubt it can drift more than the hornady did.
My opinion of a scale being super duper "I'm better than you" accurate is not required.
I would take consistency over the actual number it displays. You want the scale to be accurate to itself. If it displays 43.21 units of X, you want it to reliably do that each time. Who cares if the REAL measurement is actually 43.32 units of X.
You work up a load for YOUR rifle. All the data you get off the net you start 10% low and work up a load.
I would take consistency over the actual number it displays. You want the scale to be accurate to itself. If it displays 43.21 units of X, you want it to reliably do that each time. Who cares if the REAL measurement is actually 43.32 units of X.
You work up a load for YOUR rifle. All the data you get off the net you start 10% low and work up a load.
this is also very true.
but it has to be every time the same off.
but it has to be every time the same off.
I fail to see the argument in this thread. More powder is more powder, less powder is less powder... by 1 kernel, or 1 grain. More is more, less is less. When you say you don't need to-the-kernel charge uniformity, you're saying you don't notice any difference in more or less powder on the target. Doesn't mean a difference doesn't exist. Some people wouldn't notice anything. They aren't asking for anything they aren't getting.
None of this is about any one thing. It's about all of the things. It's cumulative.
Those of you that are looking for the maximum in precision and accuracy, don't let anyone convince you that something doesn't matter. It all matters. How much that one thing matters, depends on what you are trying to achieve, and how many "other" things you're accounting for as well. Nothing else. Uniformity of all variables, is what this entire discipline of handloading is about. Justification to allow non-uniformity to exist is the same type of justification that will allow someone to continue doing things in life they know are wrong and do not serve them, but continue to do it anyway.
I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I can shoot the difference between my autotrickler V4, and my Prometheus. At 600yds and beyond, by the time 20 shots are fired from each, everything else being equal... a very clear trend surfaces. If everyone had a prometheus, everyone would know that. Instead, since most people don't... it's just conjecture. Yet, if the rest of my ecosystem weren't totally uniform as well, my Prometheus would be useless and I would notice no difference between it and anything else.
None of this is about any one thing. It's about all of the things. It's cumulative.
Those of you that are looking for the maximum in precision and accuracy, don't let anyone convince you that something doesn't matter. It all matters. How much that one thing matters, depends on what you are trying to achieve, and how many "other" things you're accounting for as well. Nothing else. Uniformity of all variables, is what this entire discipline of handloading is about. Justification to allow non-uniformity to exist is the same type of justification that will allow someone to continue doing things in life they know are wrong and do not serve them, but continue to do it anyway.
I can tell you beyond the shadow of a doubt, that I can shoot the difference between my autotrickler V4, and my Prometheus. At 600yds and beyond, by the time 20 shots are fired from each, everything else being equal... a very clear trend surfaces. If everyone had a prometheus, everyone would know that. Instead, since most people don't... it's just conjecture. Yet, if the rest of my ecosystem weren't totally uniform as well, my Prometheus would be useless and I would notice no difference between it and anything else.
That's not hard for me to believe at all honestly. I'm not there yet, but I'm glad that some are so I can learn from their trial and error.
Order placed late nite Thursday could have been past midnite.
Natches had a sale.
Sunday before noon my my RCBS cm lite arrived. By 4PM I have setup calibrated and tested it against my existing Lyman scale only.
For the price paid this is great.
Exact match on every weight checked and load thrown.
My temperature in the house was dropping and it fluctuated by 0.1 on the throw and my other scale also fluctuated the same 0.1 in less than a minute.
Reset both and closed the damn back door. Niether have budged since.
Last time I buy a hornady, they are finicky and drift more often. They are also vibration sensitive and the Cml has not moved with repetitive bumping of the bench.
About 45 loads checked I'm satisfied.
At the moment next level want's succome to practical needs.
If 0.1 will suffice this is a nice unit.
Natches had a sale.
Sunday before noon my my RCBS cm lite arrived. By 4PM I have setup calibrated and tested it against my existing Lyman scale only.
For the price paid this is great.
Exact match on every weight checked and load thrown.
My temperature in the house was dropping and it fluctuated by 0.1 on the throw and my other scale also fluctuated the same 0.1 in less than a minute.
Reset both and closed the damn back door. Niether have budged since.
Last time I buy a hornady, they are finicky and drift more often. They are also vibration sensitive and the Cml has not moved with repetitive bumping of the bench.
About 45 loads checked I'm satisfied.
At the moment next level want's succome to practical needs.
If 0.1 will suffice this is a nice unit.
This is likely the essence of the discussion.
You're talking about things you've read about, but can't prove.
Powder type is everything. Not everyone uses varget.
I can throw charges of 6.5 sta-bal on a Redding powder throw that will go under 5sd with zero sorting or other useless nonsense.
But you do weight sort brass, so you've gone off the deep end. I'll give you a hint, where is the heaviest part of any case? It's also the part that matters the least....
If you do any decent load development, you can be within a kernel or 2 of powder and do just fine.
For some reason I'd rather pick a load with a wide node, than waste hours of my life weight sorting components that don't matter. Does the primer weight differ because the cup is different, or because the anvil is different, or because the priming compound is different? Just buy match primers and be done.
so you can see the difference in target, if you have 10 rounds of 2750 kernels of powder (55,00gr) and 10 rounds of 2751 (55,02gr) kernels of powder?
give a break...
No doubt most good shooters can see the first tenth, I can with modest equipment less wind.
The hundredth place, Probably with very good equipment at least 0.05 for the best shooters. I don't have the gear to test it and maybe not the skill.
But I will continue to laugh at anyone that claims to be able to shoot the difference to the thousands of a grain without proof of any kind.
I wish my scale would be able to go to the hundred so I could maintain the tenth better.
Honestly my shooting on the day would scew the results and have to pick cherry days out of the lot.
Controll what you can with what you have and practice.
Edit: My (extra) lol, scale money was cut severely to replace an upper that has seen better days unexpectedly.
The hundredth place, Probably with very good equipment at least 0.05 for the best shooters. I don't have the gear to test it and maybe not the skill.
But I will continue to laugh at anyone that claims to be able to shoot the difference to the thousands of a grain without proof of any kind.
I wish my scale would be able to go to the hundred so I could maintain the tenth better.
Honestly my shooting on the day would scew the results and have to pick cherry days out of the lot.
Controll what you can with what you have and practice.
Edit: My (extra) lol, scale money was cut severely to replace an upper that has seen better days unexpectedly.
Last edited:
Everyone can shoot the difference. Even you !!!
You just need to understand how variables stack. Every group anyone shoots is a direct result of the combined factors of every possible variable as they magnify over distance.
Once you understand that, every incremental effort to control each of those variables results in a group size reduction. There is no humor in the statistical reality of this point. It is simply the result of random chance within the combined limit of all influential variables.
If you don't understand this, I have a question for you... How much sand should someone mix with 50 pounds of cement to lay bricks?
Last edited:
Typical powder kernels in the powders I use weigh about 0.02 grains. Unless you start cutting kernels in half I would postulate that an accurate resolution of 0.01 grains is the smalles resolution that is meaningful. With a scale like fx120 you can reliably measure down to single kernels of N140/N150. Once at that level of accuracy, your time and money is better spent on improving other aspects of loading and or actual shooting skills.
Claiming a resulution of 0.001 would show up on the board would mean you are cutting kernels in very tiny pieces. If you were to do this, it actually changes the burn speed which only adds entropy to the equation.
Claiming a resulution of 0.001 would show up on the board would mean you are cutting kernels in very tiny pieces. If you were to do this, it actually changes the burn speed which only adds entropy to the equation.
Last edited:
Straw man much?
you dont know what you are writing?
I said I could shoot the difference between my Prometheus and my V4. What you are arguing, I never said. Straw. Man.
V4 is not a scale, but let's say you have A&D FX-120i, which is said to be accurate to 0,02gr (if it doesnt drift; but maybe it drift because it's not the best scale, it is just the beggining of the accurate scales) which is 1 kernel..
i dont know what accuracy prometheus delivers; on ordinary mechanical reloading scale you can see 0,02gr difference, so i persume that you can see it on prometheus too.
so in this matter, both scales can be accurate to 1 kernel. so question for you is, if you can see difference between A&D FX-120i and prometheus, what kind of accuracy are you capable getting from those scales?
what you are saying is that you cant meintain good accuracy and your scales are drifting. maybe you dont level your scales good enough to be precise for measuring...?
i dont know what accuracy prometheus delivers; on ordinary mechanical reloading scale you can see 0,02gr difference, so i persume that you can see it on prometheus too.
so in this matter, both scales can be accurate to 1 kernel. so question for you is, if you can see difference between A&D FX-120i and prometheus, what kind of accuracy are you capable getting from those scales?
what you are saying is that you cant meintain good accuracy and your scales are drifting. maybe you dont level your scales good enough to be precise for measuring...?
Man, some folks must be on the ragged edge of their node!
How many national champions do we have in this thread? How many world champions?
Didn't I hear an interview with a dude that shot some ridiculous X-count and a clean recently.....on a Chargemaster 1500?
I guess some people are better at tuning their load than others.
How many national champions do we have in this thread? How many world champions?
Didn't I hear an interview with a dude that shot some ridiculous X-count and a clean recently.....on a Chargemaster 1500?
I guess some people are better at tuning their load than others.
I love how everyone its telling Orkan what he can and cant do with his equipment when hes the only one here that even has that equipment to be truthfully arguing about in the first place.
And shooting the difference doesnt mean one is shit and the other isnt.
Lots of idiots in here. Getting damn near as bad as the optics section.
And shooting the difference doesnt mean one is shit and the other isnt.
Lots of idiots in here. Getting damn near as bad as the optics section.
MarkyMarks statement sums up the over arching misconception throughout this thread.
MarkyMark does not realize there is a difference between a number displayed on the scale and the actual charge weight.
Readability does not equal the actual accuracy of the scale. If a scale increments in 0.02 then you can figure the error is actually +-0.04 on a good day and probably worse if you have any sort of voltage stability issue.
Yes it displays a number that is rounded not to 2 decimal places but to increment every .02. Not every .01.
Using a decent scale that reads to 0.002, the error is more like +- 0.004 grains. With such a scale you can get accuracy to one kernel or less if you have OCD.
If you actually took the time to validate the level of inaccuracy of the FX120, you would stop defending it as the pinnacle of perfection.
The point is that to actually be accurate to within 0.02 grains, you require a scale that is more accurate and precise than 0.02 grains. And the FX120 is not that scale.
Furthermore, there are challenges with any automated system to actually drop the last one single kernel and not 2 or 3. Dropping just one kernel to perfect the load is difficult for any affordable mechanized system.
I mentioned the Vibra HT220 but surely there are many other good 3 decimal place scales a guy could purchase. I saw a bunch on Amazon that were in the $600 range, but this is a case where I would rather pay a little too much and be happy, than cheap out and be disappointed.
The HT200 has internal calibration which is something I really appreciate.
The 120 is precise enough to for all practical purposes handle single kernel accuracy. As with all scales, it needs a stable base and minimal air movement. A & D has more accurate scales than the FX series, but they are are overkill for weighing the substance we are talking about. You can test this by using weights in 0.001 increments and see if the internal rounding to the displayed 0.02 steps is accurate. A good lab scale will have better internal resolution than the display shows. Being a good shooter has zero to do with the argument as it is more of an engineering question. If you are attempting to measure and reach a specific target weight of a cargo of 1kg bricks, you hardly need precision down to the gram as it will not have any effect on the accuracy of your measurement.
I don’t find this to be true.
I could see where a finer powder than N140 could benefit from real and accurate 0.01 or even 0.005 resolution, but not really more than that. As long as you have a theoretically perfect resolution less than half that of the object to be measured you are at the maximum possible resolution.
Ok so lets do the math using load data from the Nosler web site for the old fav 6 BR.
www.nosler.com
32.5 grains of Varget goes 3160 FPS according to Nosler
30.5 grains of Varget goes 2999 according to Nosler
So, between these two loads is 2 grains of powder resulting in a velocity difference of 161 FPS
161 FPS divided by 20 equals 8.05 FPS per 1/10 of a grain.
So whatever velocity spread you actually get with an FX120 is about 8 FPS worse than it could be with a better scale.
According to JBM Ballistics (using 0.535 G1 BC)
3000 FPS drops -281.2 at 1000 yards
3008 fps drops -279.4 inches at 1000 yards
8 FPS equals 1.8 vertical inches at 1000 yards.
As stated earlier, for F Class with a 5 inch X ring and 1000 yard bench rest, competitive shooters want that 1.8 inches.
If you shoot steel, I doubt you will notice the difference, but whether you notice it or not, the error is there.
It's up to each of us to decide how badly we want to lower our ES by 8 FPS.
Please don't go off the deep end bragging about your 3 ES load with a beam scale. You just haven't tested enough rounds to see the difference. Or it was chronograph error.
6mm Bench Rest Remington Load Data
Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
www.nosler.com 32.5 grains of Varget goes 3160 FPS according to Nosler
30.5 grains of Varget goes 2999 according to Nosler
So, between these two loads is 2 grains of powder resulting in a velocity difference of 161 FPS
161 FPS divided by 20 equals 8.05 FPS per 1/10 of a grain.
So whatever velocity spread you actually get with an FX120 is about 8 FPS worse than it could be with a better scale.
According to JBM Ballistics (using 0.535 G1 BC)
3000 FPS drops -281.2 at 1000 yards
3008 fps drops -279.4 inches at 1000 yards
8 FPS equals 1.8 vertical inches at 1000 yards.
As stated earlier, for F Class with a 5 inch X ring and 1000 yard bench rest, competitive shooters want that 1.8 inches.
If you shoot steel, I doubt you will notice the difference, but whether you notice it or not, the error is there.
It's up to each of us to decide how badly we want to lower our ES by 8 FPS.
Please don't go off the deep end bragging about your 3 ES load with a beam scale. You just haven't tested enough rounds to see the difference. Or it was chronograph error.
6BR Remington? seriously? lolOk so lets do the math using load data from the Nosler web site for the old fav 6 BR.
6mm Bench Rest Remington Load Data
Explore the world of Nosler, renowned for crafting the finest bullets, ammunition, rifles, and brass. Discover our extensive lineup, including Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, Ballistic Tip, Custom Competition, and more. Experience superior quality and performance with Nosler products.
32.5 grains of Varget goes 3160 FPS according to Nosler
30.5 grains of Varget goes 2999 according to Nosler
So, between these two loads is 2 grains of powder resulting in a velocity difference of 161 FPS
161 FPS divided by 20 equals 8.05 FPS per 1/10 of a grain.
So whatever velocity spread you actually get with an FX120 is about 8 FPS worse than it could be with a better scale.
According to JBM Ballistics (using 0.535 G1 BC)
3000 FPS drops -281.2 at 1000 yards
3008 fps drops -279.4 inches at 1000 yards
8 FPS equals 1.8 vertical inches at 1000 yards.
As stated earlier, for F Class with a 5 inch X ring and 1000 yard bench rest, competitive shooters want that 1.8 inches.
If you shoot steel, I doubt you will notice the difference, but whether you notice it or not, the error is there.
It's up to each of us to decide how badly we want to lower our ES by 8 FPS.
Please don't go off the deep end bragging about your 3 ES load with a beam scale. You just haven't tested enough rounds to see the difference. Or it was chronograph error.
If only there were a linear relationship...
Denial, not just a river in Egypt huh.
if you cant win conpetitions with a&d fx120, than it's your fault, not scales... be 100% sure about that.
maybe only I in this thread know what you are saying.
I dont have A&D 120, but I weight my 'check weights' on realy laboratory scale from mettler&toledo, in conditioned lab on constant temperature and humidity on weighting table, and this scale is in range 10.000$+. and I repeat checking my check weight once a year, and they didnt change.
so be sure that I realy know what my base for weighting is. and those weights are not drifting.
That’s not even close to what he said or alluded to.
Winning a competition, which he doesn’t do, isn’t even close to the same thing as being able to tell a difference.
Don’t confuse what the tent stake idiot is claiming with what orkan is saying. They aren’t the same.
Meanwhile, old boy has something to say about spending money on quality tools elsewhere. He couldn't help but to share his opinion:
You are being redirected...
forum.accurateshooter.com
He certainly loves telling people how they should be doing things, and how they should be spending their money.
So what needs to happen here is Orkan needs to send me his Prometheus so I can verify his results against my Fx120i V3, you know, just for the sake of transparency and all..
Similar threads
