To be clear: I did not design any reticles for SwampFox. I am friendly with Mike, so I gave them some pointers, but the design is their own.
ILya
Rifle Scopes Best FFP Scope on Sale to use alongside RDS- 18" 6.5G General Purpose
- Thread starter 6.5G
- Start date
To be clear: I did not design any reticles for SwampFox. I am friendly with Mike, so I gave them some pointers, but the design is their own.
ILya
@koshkin ,
I am watching your newest "If I Could Have Only One" stream. I am also curious about the 6mm ARC and still building my "only one" 18" Grendel and I count myself very lucky that you maintain a continual thought experiment for my real scenario.
I just watched this were you say one would likely need to spend $1000 to compete with the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10x which is at $449 shipped with a coupon code. A commenter asked about your opinion on the Mil stadia reticle and you mentioned it likely wasn't out yet.
You originally suggested the Arrowhead and said you leaned toward the SS because of me prioritizing 1000yds. You also said I should be really clear about my application. Well, experience is teaching me that 1000yrds is not my primary use. You were right to suspect.
If you were me would you stick with your original advice of 10x SWFA SS plus offset MRDS or would you try the Arrowhead with the newer reticle?
Arrowhead LPVO Series
The Swampfox Arrowhead LPVO series meets or exceeds every requirement for serious law enforcement and self-defense applications. Locking turrets require no tools to prevent unintentional adjustments. Arrowhead’s state-of-the-art optical design creates a brighter sight picture, a wider field of...www.swampfoxoptics.com
If you do not mind, let's do this:
Give it a little bit of thought and restate your application given everything you have learned to date.
It is a good exercise to go back to the original mission statement once in a while.
ILya
Ilya and others,
Reality has definitely refined my expectations and I agree and appreciate an opportunity to reframe. Not unlike your "one gun for all" to some extent this is a thought experiment. The gun ban pretext and the "have one rifle and not get divorced and put your kids through school" bases for your "one gun" is a very relatable scenario that feels more an more possible. But with the recognition that I can sell what I have and my getting practice is more important than perfect equipment, I'm ready to be more ruthless in my prioritization.
I view my priorities in this order:
I hope it will never be needed but these are the primary underlying reasons:
SHTF in a rural area
Home Defense
Subordinate goals in service of the above:
Whitetail hunting
Multigun competition
Tertiary want rather than "need" because I like math and the meditative parts of mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship:
1000 yards
I am finding that there are only 2 entities in Illinois that have 1000yd ranges; one private individual that charges quite a bit by the hour (understandably) and one club that has rare access to such a range. There is another club (Aurora Sportsmen's Club) that is closed to new members due to COVID that I believe goes up to 600. ASC is also the only range I know of that has multigun practice and event facilities. Other than that it appears that I am constrained to 100 yards.
Reality has definitely refined my expectations and I agree and appreciate an opportunity to reframe. Not unlike your "one gun for all" to some extent this is a thought experiment. The gun ban pretext and the "have one rifle and not get divorced and put your kids through school" bases for your "one gun" is a very relatable scenario that feels more an more possible. But with the recognition that I can sell what I have and my getting practice is more important than perfect equipment, I'm ready to be more ruthless in my prioritization.
I view my priorities in this order:
I hope it will never be needed but these are the primary underlying reasons:
SHTF in a rural area
Home Defense
Subordinate goals in service of the above:
Whitetail hunting
Multigun competition
Tertiary want rather than "need" because I like math and the meditative parts of mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship:
1000 yards
I am finding that there are only 2 entities in Illinois that have 1000yd ranges; one private individual that charges quite a bit by the hour (understandably) and one club that has rare access to such a range. There is another club (Aurora Sportsmen's Club) that is closed to new members due to COVID that I believe goes up to 600. ASC is also the only range I know of that has multigun practice and event facilities. Other than that it appears that I am constrained to 100 yards.
I don't buy fords and the chink fit isn't coming here.308Pirate,
Thank you for your feedback. I was experiencing noob analysis paralysis. Rather than develop a totally abstract theory based on reading I asked questions of those with experience, and executed.
I purchased the recommended setup and practiced with it. Experience grants me perspective, and my questions evolve as I do.
The good-natured stewardship of those with experience sharing their clarity has been a valued part of this process. The synthesis of expert info alongside praxis is my preferred antiparalytic as I respect the insight of those that come before me.
https://www.motor1.com/news/240665/2020-ford-focus-active-detailed/
In Canada, a Car Built in China (Published 2011)
For the first time, cars built in China are arriving in North America, with Honda importing its subcompact Fit into Canada.www.nytimes.com
Problem solved.
That is a good summary.
What is your price range for the whole setup: optics and mounts?
Thanks
ILya
The PST G2 3-15 with RMR in a Larue mount have worked out well
Alright. $500 does not get you all that much to work with, especially if part of that is the mount.
If this is the price range and home defense/SHTF is a priority, I would go with either a red dot/magnifier option or a LPVO.
Neither is going to be ideal for white tail hunting, but if SHTF is a priority, you have to have good quality 1x.
Ideally, I would tell you to get a SWFA SS 3-9x42 in a Hostile Engagement mount that is setup for direct attachment of any RMR compatible red dot, like their own Justice RDS. However, that is right around $1k or double of your budget.
You could simply switch to SWFA 6x42 in the same mount with offset RDS, which will get you down to about $700. That is still above your limit.
I used to run that, but decided to go lighter, so I set up a SWFA Ultralight 2.5-10x32 with an offset red dot. That works really well and 32mm obective does surprisingly nicely in low light with their BDC reticle that is thicker than the plex. With the Ultralight, I do not need a cantilevered mount, so I have in tall rings with a scope tube mounted Hawke Micro Red dot.
With RDS/magnifier, you can easily find a decent red dot for $200 and get Vortex Micro 3x magnifier for about $300.
Probably the most flexible approach would be to get an inexpensive SFP 1-6x24 that would do most of what you need in a pinch. One combo kit that willg et you very close is the Burris RT-6 with PEPR mount and Fastfire3 that you can get for around $500-$550. I am not a huge fan of that mount, but it works in a pinch and later you can upgrade. However, that gets you decent 1x, decent 6x and some redunduncy.
24mm objective is not ideal for hunting, but it is not quite as hopeless as people make it out to be.
Personally, I would probably try to find a way to stretch my budget enough to get a 6x42 SS with an offset red dot.
ILya
If this is the price range and home defense/SHTF is a priority, I would go with either a red dot/magnifier option or a LPVO.
Neither is going to be ideal for white tail hunting, but if SHTF is a priority, you have to have good quality 1x.
Ideally, I would tell you to get a SWFA SS 3-9x42 in a Hostile Engagement mount that is setup for direct attachment of any RMR compatible red dot, like their own Justice RDS. However, that is right around $1k or double of your budget.
You could simply switch to SWFA 6x42 in the same mount with offset RDS, which will get you down to about $700. That is still above your limit.
I used to run that, but decided to go lighter, so I set up a SWFA Ultralight 2.5-10x32 with an offset red dot. That works really well and 32mm obective does surprisingly nicely in low light with their BDC reticle that is thicker than the plex. With the Ultralight, I do not need a cantilevered mount, so I have in tall rings with a scope tube mounted Hawke Micro Red dot.
With RDS/magnifier, you can easily find a decent red dot for $200 and get Vortex Micro 3x magnifier for about $300.
Probably the most flexible approach would be to get an inexpensive SFP 1-6x24 that would do most of what you need in a pinch. One combo kit that willg et you very close is the Burris RT-6 with PEPR mount and Fastfire3 that you can get for around $500-$550. I am not a huge fan of that mount, but it works in a pinch and later you can upgrade. However, that gets you decent 1x, decent 6x and some redunduncy.
24mm objective is not ideal for hunting, but it is not quite as hopeless as people make it out to be.
Personally, I would probably try to find a way to stretch my budget enough to get a 6x42 SS with an offset red dot.
ILya
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It might make it easier to state that I already have a cantilevered 30mm 20moa mount I got on sale for $59: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019614720
Its MIUSA by a somewhat well-respected manufacturer.
I bought a Burris Fastfire III and all mounts necessary for a deal locally at $150.
The SWFA SS was $249 on samplelist.
If I sell the scope and Fastfire setup I can have ~$500 liquid just for a LPVO and retain my mount. If the recommendation includes an offset MRDS, then there is $350 for the scope. So not so dire with these details.
Sure, I can add more $ if necessary. But we are getting into the "without my wife divorcing me" part of your hypothetical as mine would rather I spend more on med supplies or more food before going more Gucci on my rifle setup and I can see her pragmatic point.
Its MIUSA by a somewhat well-respected manufacturer.
I bought a Burris Fastfire III and all mounts necessary for a deal locally at $150.
The SWFA SS was $249 on samplelist.
If I sell the scope and Fastfire setup I can have ~$500 liquid just for a LPVO and retain my mount. If the recommendation includes an offset MRDS, then there is $350 for the scope. So not so dire with these details.
Sure, I can add more $ if necessary. But we are getting into the "without my wife divorcing me" part of your hypothetical as mine would rather I spend more on med supplies or more food before going more Gucci on my rifle setup and I can see her pragmatic point.
They are perfectly viable without the red dot. Just not ideal for hunting.
If it is $500 for the LPVO, get the Arrowhead.
ILya
A) this is a terrible request for spoonfeeding but I tried to read up on why such a thing would be bad for hunting and I didn't find anything.
B) are there affiliate links or a patreon you could pm me so I can show my gratitude for you making this process so much clearer?
B) are there affiliate links or a patreon you could pm me so I can show my gratitude for you making this process so much clearer?
They are not necessarily bad for hunting, but not ideal for low light due to a smallish objective diameter. Perfectly viable if you keep distances moderate and magnification on the low side.
I am about to kick off YouTube memberships. It is their way to go against Patreon. Give me a couple of days.
ILya
I think I'm ready to upgrade, as circumstances are forcing me to remove the optic either way. I've saved more and my new limit is $550 for just the optic.
4 days after my first competition I noticed the focus ring is stuck on my SS 10x42. I wonder if the self-adhesive camouflage wrap I put on the scope got tucked a bit under the ring and a loose thread jammed things up. Whatever the case, if it can't be repaired SWFA will replace and I can ask to go to the 3-9 if I add funds.
Another thing I can do is sell the 10x when it returns or if it is fixed. What else should I consider? I noticed on Ilya's website the element helix 6-24×50 ffp. However, this reviewer seemed to note a scaling issue on the reticle?
4 days after my first competition I noticed the focus ring is stuck on my SS 10x42. I wonder if the self-adhesive camouflage wrap I put on the scope got tucked a bit under the ring and a loose thread jammed things up. Whatever the case, if it can't be repaired SWFA will replace and I can ask to go to the 3-9 if I add funds.
Another thing I can do is sell the 10x when it returns or if it is fixed. What else should I consider? I noticed on Ilya's website the element helix 6-24×50 ffp. However, this reviewer seemed to note a scaling issue on the reticle?
I'd throw this in for consideration if the weight isn't too much. I think they had them for under 500 at one point. Europtic has great deals you just have to keep an eye out. I haven't shot mine a lot yet but am very happy with it for the $. I think its a great starter scope and can be sold down the road for about what you have into it.
www.eurooptic.com
Also most variable scopes suck on max magnification especially lpvo. Its better to have a little more magnification than you need and dial it back some to improve the eyebox. I'm a newb on the big scopes but have had LPVOs for a long time. Imo something like that viper is going to be way more on usable on 10x than a 1-10.
Vortex Viper Gen II PST 3-15x44 EBR-2D MOA (FFP) PST-3154
FREE SHIPPING on Vortex Viper PST 3-15x44 EBR-2D MOA (FFP) PST-3154
Also most variable scopes suck on max magnification especially lpvo. Its better to have a little more magnification than you need and dial it back some to improve the eyebox. I'm a newb on the big scopes but have had LPVOs for a long time. Imo something like that viper is going to be way more on usable on 10x than a 1-10.
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To be sure I understand this little dance number going on now:
The OP says top priorities are rural area SHTF and home defense.
The OP says bottom priority is mastering marksmanship at the 1,000 yard line.
We are rapidly approaching the line that demarcates mortal man from "Operator as Fuck", otherwise known as OAF.
Any intelligent conversation begins with an agreement on vocabulary (it ain't a new thread, but I am new to it, so...), can we restate the definition of a priority and how/why one arranges them?
I have said for many many years to many many shooters, set the gun up for the shot you will definitely be taking (and the one that is most important) THEN - and only then - consider what else you might want to do with it. Setting up a gun that has, as a stated first priority, home defense with a 6-24X is utter insanity. Setting up a gun for home defense with an offset red dot as the primary optic, only slightly less insane, but still plenty insane.
I own a rifle or 2 and have used maybe 2 or 3 more, and have never set up a gun - in defense of my country or my family - that needs to ring poppers at 1k AND clear corners.
Pick a thing and go with it. But let's start with one thing.
I agree heartily that a 6.5G is a fantastic gun in 18" with a good optic; it will easily handle point blank out to 1K. Guns I run in that category (all-purpose, up close to mid-range, medium-precision) usually wear a 2-10X or 3-9X with an off-set. I would not consider a medium-size gun and a 6-24 a good idea in any context at all, but that's just me. A medium gun with a fixed 10X and an off-set, in some circumstances, yes; but not without a very quick and very usable reticle. SWFA's 10X is the gold standard for inexpensive quality and repeatability, but the reticle choices are slim.
Were I making recommendations, I'd say you need 2 optics platforms: one for the secondary and tertiary needs, and one for the top priorities. There isn't an optic that easily goes from room clearing to taking 1k shots, everything is trade-offs.
Warmest regards,
The OP says top priorities are rural area SHTF and home defense.
The OP says bottom priority is mastering marksmanship at the 1,000 yard line.
We are rapidly approaching the line that demarcates mortal man from "Operator as Fuck", otherwise known as OAF.
Any intelligent conversation begins with an agreement on vocabulary (it ain't a new thread, but I am new to it, so...), can we restate the definition of a priority and how/why one arranges them?
I have said for many many years to many many shooters, set the gun up for the shot you will definitely be taking (and the one that is most important) THEN - and only then - consider what else you might want to do with it. Setting up a gun that has, as a stated first priority, home defense with a 6-24X is utter insanity. Setting up a gun for home defense with an offset red dot as the primary optic, only slightly less insane, but still plenty insane.
I own a rifle or 2 and have used maybe 2 or 3 more, and have never set up a gun - in defense of my country or my family - that needs to ring poppers at 1k AND clear corners.
Pick a thing and go with it. But let's start with one thing.
I agree heartily that a 6.5G is a fantastic gun in 18" with a good optic; it will easily handle point blank out to 1K. Guns I run in that category (all-purpose, up close to mid-range, medium-precision) usually wear a 2-10X or 3-9X with an off-set. I would not consider a medium-size gun and a 6-24 a good idea in any context at all, but that's just me. A medium gun with a fixed 10X and an off-set, in some circumstances, yes; but not without a very quick and very usable reticle. SWFA's 10X is the gold standard for inexpensive quality and repeatability, but the reticle choices are slim.
Were I making recommendations, I'd say you need 2 optics platforms: one for the secondary and tertiary needs, and one for the top priorities. There isn't an optic that easily goes from room clearing to taking 1k shots, everything is trade-offs.
Warmest regards,
That may have come off a little jackassy, let me try again.
The value of any advice is multi-factorial:
Does the giver know what he/she is talking about.
Does the requestor of info know what to ask.
Are the priorities correctly weighted and understood.
If SHTF and home defense are high on the list, first and foremost, you NEED a good light. I'd gladly run open sights and a good light and would do so confident that I'd win most fights. Beyond that, a 3-15 or 3-9 in a QD for range work and a red dot for everything else. That'd be my first set of input.
Beyond that, instruction, good professional instruction. The 1,000 yard line isn't where one works on marksmanship, it is where one finds the flaws in their shooting. You work on it at 100 first, then 300-500, then 600-800. There are bad trigger pulls and bad wind calls and poor natural point of aim and bad cheek weld (etc etc) and they can be hidden at 100, but they start showing at 300; and by 800, they turn into "where the fuck did that round go..."
If you want run-n-good skill, do that; if you want bench skill, do that - but they are very different skill sets.
Lastly, John Wick is fiction, and don't chase gear to make you more John Wick-like. Skill is a function of practice, real practice, because these are very perishable skills.
The value of any advice is multi-factorial:
Does the giver know what he/she is talking about.
Does the requestor of info know what to ask.
Are the priorities correctly weighted and understood.
If SHTF and home defense are high on the list, first and foremost, you NEED a good light. I'd gladly run open sights and a good light and would do so confident that I'd win most fights. Beyond that, a 3-15 or 3-9 in a QD for range work and a red dot for everything else. That'd be my first set of input.
Beyond that, instruction, good professional instruction. The 1,000 yard line isn't where one works on marksmanship, it is where one finds the flaws in their shooting. You work on it at 100 first, then 300-500, then 600-800. There are bad trigger pulls and bad wind calls and poor natural point of aim and bad cheek weld (etc etc) and they can be hidden at 100, but they start showing at 300; and by 800, they turn into "where the fuck did that round go..."
If you want run-n-good skill, do that; if you want bench skill, do that - but they are very different skill sets.
Lastly, John Wick is fiction, and don't chase gear to make you more John Wick-like. Skill is a function of practice, real practice, because these are very perishable skills.
I appreciate your input. I don't think you needed to bandy a diagnosis of insanity when I am working towards what you have done (offset and medium variable) based on consensus from knowledgeable people. I thought I captured the unlikelihood of SHTF or HD and my passing concern with those things in my priorities list but I can see how I may have miscommunicated. The way I see it, just having something is enough piece of mind for the slimmest probability either two would happen. Otherwise I'm poor and want to try a few different shooting sports and hunting out to see if I like them in the next few years without filling a safe full of guns. Is that modest enough for your judgement? I moved to a place where there are 1000yrd ranges, almost a dozen ranges running competitions, and good hunting. I will have to move away soon and thus want to see if I enjoy these things before possibly moving far away from the opportunities here. Do you care to share what the 2-10 or 3-9 you use?
To supplement after reading your second post, I have been shooting rifles for 25 years. I moved to a city for grad school and sold my rifles. Now I am in a more gun friendly place but still a grad student, thus the one rifle. I'm not trying to master basic marksmanship at 1000yds, I would be enrolling in this class http://thesitetraining.com/designated-marksman-rifle and shooting at the 1000 yard part of my home range on the journey to master *1000yd marksmanship* at 1000yds. This seems to be in line with the value you ascribe to working up in range when you are comfortable at more intermediate distances. Meanwhile, I just placed in the top 3rd of the carbine competition I mentioned. I'm not insane or clueless. You'll see my specs match the class I linked. My limitation is money and time. If you think I don't have enough of either to do all of what I list, you are probably right. I am just trying.
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Yes it did come off as jackassy, thank you for acknowledging. I would bet Ilya has more right to browbeat and gatekeep than most, but he seems not to somehow.
This place is called "sniper's hide", the most cringy OAF name conceivable and yet most know not to take ourselves that seriously, and I would appreciate the same benefit of the doubt this forum usually functions on, that prevents us from interrogating whether any of us have a reason to shoot long-distance, or even need a gun in the first place. What do you need an offset and a 2-10 for? Are you insane? See how disrespectful that is. Someone just said going with a variable optic with max mag above what you'll use. I asked about a scope reccomended on Ilya's website. I am just listening here. Feel free to share your experiences and insights, i will probably benefit from them. No need to call anyone insane. Your point is well taken that I am trying to do a lot with a little money and time.
This place is called "sniper's hide", the most cringy OAF name conceivable and yet most know not to take ourselves that seriously, and I would appreciate the same benefit of the doubt this forum usually functions on, that prevents us from interrogating whether any of us have a reason to shoot long-distance, or even need a gun in the first place. What do you need an offset and a 2-10 for? Are you insane? See how disrespectful that is. Someone just said going with a variable optic with max mag above what you'll use. I asked about a scope reccomended on Ilya's website. I am just listening here. Feel free to share your experiences and insights, i will probably benefit from them. No need to call anyone insane. Your point is well taken that I am trying to do a lot with a little money and time.
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I have known the gentlemen behind the catchy name Rancid Coolaid for quite a few years and he has a colorful way to express himself, but he knows what he is talking about and the jackassy part is unlikely to be intentional. To be entirely honest, if he was looking to insult you, he'd do a much more creative and thorough job of it.
For mid-range variable in the 2-10x or 3-9x range, there are still not all that many good FFP options: SWFA SS 3-9x42, Athlon Helos 2-12x44, Primary Arms GLx 2.5-10x44, Trijicon Credo 2-10x36, etc. My traditional recommendation is still the SWFA SS 3-9x42 due track record and light weight. However, I have been messing with the PA and it is really growing on me. The feature set is very good on that scope and it is holding up well. If you open it up to SFP designs, once you add a requirement of good turrets and good reticles, the field does not open up all that much.
ILya
I'll take my lumps. As I said, the admonition of trying to do too much with limited gear is well taken. When I have come back for different insights in this thread each time after months, it has been between many hours committed to experience, as I mentioned each time, maybe not emphatically enough. I don't think it's outlandish to develop run-and-gun and bench skills concurrently when you have solid fundamentals in both and have been doing okay in competitions. But I get that maybe I am overextending your "if I could only have one" thought experiment such that my reach exceeds my grasp. And I *am* inexperienced relative to the people on this forum, which is why I get value from coming here, colorful expression included.
Thank you for your insights, Rancid Koolaid.
Does the giver know what he/she is talking about.
Does the requestor of info know what to ask.
Are the priorities correctly weighted and understood.
Let me know what I can supplement to that end, and where I might have Dunning-Kruger'ed.
Thank you for your insights, Rancid Koolaid.
- I have a good light. I have swapped emitters and de-domed LEDs in lights so I have a good idea what I was looking for. I've practiced what lumens are appropriate without bouncing too much light back in my eyes within my home.
- The low FOV with the fixed SS 10x did slow me down a bit at the outlaw carbine stage with 100yd steels last weekend, but I liked the magnification once I found the smaller poppers. Would you recommend I practice with a lower magnification to get faster or just more practice/a different technique for getting on target faster using 10x?
- I shot proficiently at the max ranges I had access to before grad school (300yd) and use Hornady's 4DOF as well as Stretlok and have a dope book. I am very much a nerd, so the finer technical details of bench shooting you've listed have been a hobby. I'll be honest that I can only shoot 2 MOA at those distances nowadays at best; I did better with my Savage 110 before grad school. But the Grendel AR I have now is a Bear Creek Arsenal upper which I get is complete shit so IDK. But this is why I mentioned that DMR class above. I think the instructor looks good enough. Maybe I will give up on 1k and focus on 600 yards for now, as it sounds like that fits in the gear envelope you describe easier.
- Why a scope on a QD mount versus offset?
- Your "all-purpose, close to mid-range, medium-precision" example sounds exactly like what I am pursuing. You said you have an offset dot and a 3-9 or a 2-10. Not higher magnifications. understood.
- My friend has a hunting camp in Michigan and has invited me next season. Semi-auto is allowed with a 5-round magazine. This is one reason why I am sticking to offset and medium-variable versus LPVO; by doing so I have an optic with a larger objective lens avoid buying an optics set up for one trip.
- Is there any professional instruction or experience you would recommend beyond what I have listed?
Does the giver know what he/she is talking about.
Does the requestor of info know what to ask.
Are the priorities correctly weighted and understood.
Let me know what I can supplement to that end, and where I might have Dunning-Kruger'ed.
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I am sure RC will address your questions when he sees them, but I thought I would address a couple.
I have never taken classes at The Site, but I plan to. I have talked to Jim Kauber over the phone for a while. He seems like a good dude and he definitely comes off as knowing what he is talking about. I am going to try to convince to let me take a class and while there, maybe I'll offer to do a riflescope class for his students. Last time I talked to him was just before the whole COVID crap started. I should give him a call.
Vortex opened a training academy called the Edge. I was slated to take a carbine class there last week, but we had a death in the family, so I had to bail out and get on the plane. I plan to re-schedule as soon as I can.
Probably, the most salient point here is that you will be a better shot if you take a class with suboptimal gear than if you use the money to buy better gear instead of training. I traditionally fall into the second category, but I am trying to fix that.
Now, onto the gear. A lot of this is redundant, but here it is anyway.
If you want flexibility of use, a medium range variable (3-9x42, 2-10x42, etc) combined with the red dot will give you the broadest performance envelope. It is not ideal for long range or for CQB, but if you are comfortable with an offset red dot, the CQB part is well covered. Some people do not like dealing with an offset red dot sight indoors, so another fairly common configuration I have seen is setting a mid-range variable in QD rings and replacing it with a red dot when the rifle is home doing SHTF duty. A lot of it is a function of familiarity, but if you happen to shoot off of both sides, an offset red dot is not ideal. I keep on experimenting with this stuff and for my personal stuff I can never quite decide what I like the most and, frankly, for different guns I like different things. For example, I have these set up simultaneously on different ARs and AKs, since I like experimenting with stuff:
3-9x42 SS HD and offset RDS
2.5-10x42 PA GLx and offset RDS
2.5-10x32 SS UL and piggybacked RDS
4x32 Mepro X4 Prismatic and offset irons (XS XTI2)
4x30 Elcan prismatic and piggybacked RDS
1-10x24 LPVO with offset irons (Zero Bravo)
Holographic with 3x magnifier
RDS with 3.5x magnifier
RDS with 6x magnifier
The funny thing is, overall, they all work just fine if I just do a little practice....
If I do not need long range too much, there is very little I can not do with the optically spectacular Elcan 4x and a piggybacked red dot sight. Magnification is useful for some things if hunting is in the picture I would probably lean toward a 3-9x42 with RDS, but 4x is enough for most things. Also keep in mind that there is an increasing number of surprisingly competent and moderately inexpensive prismatics coming out.
ILya
I have never taken classes at The Site, but I plan to. I have talked to Jim Kauber over the phone for a while. He seems like a good dude and he definitely comes off as knowing what he is talking about. I am going to try to convince to let me take a class and while there, maybe I'll offer to do a riflescope class for his students. Last time I talked to him was just before the whole COVID crap started. I should give him a call.
Vortex opened a training academy called the Edge. I was slated to take a carbine class there last week, but we had a death in the family, so I had to bail out and get on the plane. I plan to re-schedule as soon as I can.
Probably, the most salient point here is that you will be a better shot if you take a class with suboptimal gear than if you use the money to buy better gear instead of training. I traditionally fall into the second category, but I am trying to fix that.
Now, onto the gear. A lot of this is redundant, but here it is anyway.
If you want flexibility of use, a medium range variable (3-9x42, 2-10x42, etc) combined with the red dot will give you the broadest performance envelope. It is not ideal for long range or for CQB, but if you are comfortable with an offset red dot, the CQB part is well covered. Some people do not like dealing with an offset red dot sight indoors, so another fairly common configuration I have seen is setting a mid-range variable in QD rings and replacing it with a red dot when the rifle is home doing SHTF duty. A lot of it is a function of familiarity, but if you happen to shoot off of both sides, an offset red dot is not ideal. I keep on experimenting with this stuff and for my personal stuff I can never quite decide what I like the most and, frankly, for different guns I like different things. For example, I have these set up simultaneously on different ARs and AKs, since I like experimenting with stuff:
3-9x42 SS HD and offset RDS
2.5-10x42 PA GLx and offset RDS
2.5-10x32 SS UL and piggybacked RDS
4x32 Mepro X4 Prismatic and offset irons (XS XTI2)
4x30 Elcan prismatic and piggybacked RDS
1-10x24 LPVO with offset irons (Zero Bravo)
Holographic with 3x magnifier
RDS with 3.5x magnifier
RDS with 6x magnifier
The funny thing is, overall, they all work just fine if I just do a little practice....
If I do not need long range too much, there is very little I can not do with the optically spectacular Elcan 4x and a piggybacked red dot sight. Magnification is useful for some things if hunting is in the picture I would probably lean toward a 3-9x42 with RDS, but 4x is enough for most things. Also keep in mind that there is an increasing number of surprisingly competent and moderately inexpensive prismatics coming out.
ILya
Ilya,
ACSS Griffin
A couple months ago on your YouTube, you noted your one potential concern for the ACSS Griffin reticle on your PA GLx 2.5-10 was that on either side of the chevron there were no windage marks, aside from the one 8.6 mph dots. It seems that this reticle is not designed for one to dial elevation and hold windage, which is a technique I'm more familiar with. In the intervening time have you developed more opinions on this? I can see how the 1 mil dots deeper in the tree, and one's ability to naturally see the center of marks (as capitalized on with ghost rings) for half-mil holds could obviate the issue. But I have no basis for an informed opinion as the Site class would be the first I would be shooting at moving targets.
Do you think this scope would likely be compatible with Jim Kauber's pedagogy at The Site? More holding and less dialing? I can email him as well.
I caught that you advised the reticle be used for a 6.5 Grendel AR in a DMR role, and I do like the turret locks and the zero stop system. I have also heard the objective lens is a little larger than (unnamed by the reviewer) competitors, which is a plus for the one hunting trip, or if the next outlaw carbine competition is as rainy and overcast as the last one was.
Notable Alternatives
Alternative reticles for the purpose suggested herein include various EBRs from different Vortex PST gens, SS mil-dot, and the AHMR2 in the Helios, which seems like a natural counter to the ACSS Griffin. It has windage marks at zero elevation, a dot instead of a chevron, the ring around the crosshairs illuminates, and yet it still has a ranging stadia, locking turrets, and a zero stop. Only a 2mm smaller objective. They market the Helios as a DMR scope, and the extra 2x may be nice. I wonder if there is any cause for concern with higher magnification factors on a scope in this price bracket? This looks like a strong competitor, but just from the spec sheet here on my computer screen.
Going Forward
Either way, I think I will ask to pay extra for a SS 3-9 if they cannot fix my 10x, and will buy one of the other scopes discussed in this thread to use in competition while I wait the quoted 6 weeks for the SS. Given current demand and the value of these scopes, they seem like more liquid assets than usual. I am not as scared as I would be regarding the ease of rehoming the one I don't like. All this talk of experience has me wanting to get seeing these things for myself out of the way.
I was not steered wrong buy the 10x when gear funds were extremely tight. Going cheaper let me start earlier, and thus bought learning behind it in the past 13 months.
ACSS Griffin
A couple months ago on your YouTube, you noted your one potential concern for the ACSS Griffin reticle on your PA GLx 2.5-10 was that on either side of the chevron there were no windage marks, aside from the one 8.6 mph dots. It seems that this reticle is not designed for one to dial elevation and hold windage, which is a technique I'm more familiar with. In the intervening time have you developed more opinions on this? I can see how the 1 mil dots deeper in the tree, and one's ability to naturally see the center of marks (as capitalized on with ghost rings) for half-mil holds could obviate the issue. But I have no basis for an informed opinion as the Site class would be the first I would be shooting at moving targets.
Do you think this scope would likely be compatible with Jim Kauber's pedagogy at The Site? More holding and less dialing? I can email him as well.
I caught that you advised the reticle be used for a 6.5 Grendel AR in a DMR role, and I do like the turret locks and the zero stop system. I have also heard the objective lens is a little larger than (unnamed by the reviewer) competitors, which is a plus for the one hunting trip, or if the next outlaw carbine competition is as rainy and overcast as the last one was.
Notable Alternatives
Alternative reticles for the purpose suggested herein include various EBRs from different Vortex PST gens, SS mil-dot, and the AHMR2 in the Helios, which seems like a natural counter to the ACSS Griffin. It has windage marks at zero elevation, a dot instead of a chevron, the ring around the crosshairs illuminates, and yet it still has a ranging stadia, locking turrets, and a zero stop. Only a 2mm smaller objective. They market the Helios as a DMR scope, and the extra 2x may be nice. I wonder if there is any cause for concern with higher magnification factors on a scope in this price bracket? This looks like a strong competitor, but just from the spec sheet here on my computer screen.
Going Forward
Either way, I think I will ask to pay extra for a SS 3-9 if they cannot fix my 10x, and will buy one of the other scopes discussed in this thread to use in competition while I wait the quoted 6 weeks for the SS. Given current demand and the value of these scopes, they seem like more liquid assets than usual. I am not as scared as I would be regarding the ease of rehoming the one I don't like. All this talk of experience has me wanting to get seeing these things for myself out of the way.
I was not steered wrong buy the 10x when gear funds were extremely tight. Going cheaper let me start earlier, and thus bought learning behind it in the past 13 months.
ACSS Griffin: my original opinion has not changed. It is a nice scope and a perfectly functional reticle, but I basically use it as a DMR scope with reticle holdover only. I dislike dialing windage and the way this reticle is set-up, if you dial elevation and there is any wind, you have to dial windage. Aside from this, I am very happy with the scope. I do not know a ton about Jim pedagogy since I have not taken his class, but if he plans to have you hold for most shots, Griffin-MIL will work well.
If you get the SS 3-9x42 with MilQuad, that scope is designed for dialing elevation and holding for wind.
AHMR2 looks like a pretty competent design on paper. There are a couple of things I would do differently, I think, but those are minor and not something I plan to voice until I get my hands on the scope and confirm my suspicions.
ILya
AHMR2 is a good match to Grendel, IMHO. The Athlon Helos 2-12 FFP is also a nice size for an AR15 vs AR308 or bolt gun. I have no complaints with the Helos 2-12 on my 16.5" Grendel.
ILya covered things thoroughly.
If the priorities are now different from the original list, that changes everything. Have you ever attempted to clear your house with your rifle? If not, it is a great exercise, and might quickly show the deficiencies of your optics choices. Then consider how adding extreme stress to the same movements will impact your abilities.
And I didn't say the skill set for run-n-gun could not be developed concurrently with bench shooting skills; but the gun setup will either change to suit the application, or you will significantly handicap yourself on one. QDs are the best of several options, and my recommendation remains: run an optics platform for one application and a red dot for defensive and SHTF. Keep in mind that if you really need the gun for defensive purposes, it will be high stress, you won't have time to move things around, and almost every magnifying optic will be a hinderance when/if you have to clear your house of potential bad guys.
One of the many lessons the USMC pounded into us was that no one rises to the occasion, you just fall back on training. So train how you fight, then train train train.
If the priorities are now different from the original list, that changes everything. Have you ever attempted to clear your house with your rifle? If not, it is a great exercise, and might quickly show the deficiencies of your optics choices. Then consider how adding extreme stress to the same movements will impact your abilities.
And I didn't say the skill set for run-n-gun could not be developed concurrently with bench shooting skills; but the gun setup will either change to suit the application, or you will significantly handicap yourself on one. QDs are the best of several options, and my recommendation remains: run an optics platform for one application and a red dot for defensive and SHTF. Keep in mind that if you really need the gun for defensive purposes, it will be high stress, you won't have time to move things around, and almost every magnifying optic will be a hinderance when/if you have to clear your house of potential bad guys.
One of the many lessons the USMC pounded into us was that no one rises to the occasion, you just fall back on training. So train how you fight, then train train train.
Is this still the priority list?
I may have missed it, but I didn’t see any mention of optical/mechanical reliability/durability on a gas gun with heavy reciprocating mass effects that are known for breaking optics. I have seen it personally happen with 6.5 Grendel and Nikon Tactical (discontinued), where the objective piece broke loose.
What I’m tracking is some desire for the following, but not sure of the order:
For SHTF, 18” is pushing towards the longer end but is still doable.
SHTF optics should start off with a regional terrain analysis, and you need to determine the likelihood of the balance between Close Quarters Marksmanship and intermediate range covering observation/fire for people/vehicles in your group if applicable.
But a SHTF optic needs to be reliable first. Anything under that $500 price point normally doesn’t hold up well in my experience, so they are a waste of time and money if you’re serious, especially on a gas gun. When I say, “In my experience”, I mean having watched Grendels, AR-15s, AR-10s, and other semi-auto rifles come through my DM and Carbine courses dating back to 2013, and my own high volume schedule shooting Grendel since 2009 trying multiple optics on Grendels ranging from 24” down to 12”.
These are just a few from 20” down to 12”.
Top is set up for distance out to 1200yds with Leupold HD.
18” LaRue set up for intermediate range/SHTF with GRSC Japanese LOW 1-6x24
16” Lilja set up for hunting/intermediate range DMR with Burris 1.5-6x
12” set up for SHTF/intermediate range SHTF/HD. That set-up surprisingly got me out to 800yds on 36”x24” steel buffalo TGT with 9/10 hot rate with 2 different types of factory ammo, the 123gr Hornady AG and Federal 120gr OTM Match, which have some of the lost BCs of any factory loads out there. Elevation was 6600ft, so air is thin at that range.
You’re basically asking for a scope that smashes the capabilities of all of these into one, which is an extremely tall order.
HD leans towards a smaller carbine/pistol, but an 18” will still do it, provided you practice maneuvering under stress inside the confines of a furniture-filled room at night.
18” is ideal for Whitetail hunting with the right optic. Since most hunting distances are within 200yds, most optics will work fine for that, ambient illumination being a big factor. For the dawn/dusk shots, superior glass wins that game at a premium price, whereas most sub-$1k optics don’t cut it. One exception I’ve found to that is the Vortex Viper 2.5-10x32 PST, but others have had the opposite experience with it. Before my eyes went into the post-40yr drain, I could hit my 12” steel poppers at night out to 565yds with my 18” Lilja Grendel topped with the 2.5-10x32 Viper PST.
Multigun is best served with a high-end LPVO, but can be done with some lesser optics and still allow you to place mid-high pack if you practice more relevant stage management and are up against lesser-experienced competitors. You can have a lot of fun with a decent optic, doesn’t need to be NF, Vortex, Razor, Leica, etc.
1000yds is best-served with higher-end glass quality with repeatable/reliable tracking or really good glass with stadia/tree reticle and side focus.
You’re basically asking in a really long-winded way for a unicorn optic that will do it all, on a budget that barely covers the scope mount, to be attached to an upper that is known for probably the lowest performance in the industry just in terms of chamber specs, concentricity, etc.
When I was in a similar position, I bought my barrel/bolt combos from known/reputable sources and pieced together my upper. I wasn’t on as limited of a budget, but I still like to get deals and be frugal so I can spend more on optics and ammo-the real cost considerations.
For optics, you could find one optic that would cover SHTF, hunting, and Multigun, but it won’t cover 1000yd shooting well. An LPVO will do the first 3. Some of the better, more recent LPVOs will do a marginal job of allowing suppressing fire out to 1k, and the higher-end ones will allow increased hit probability on full IPSC sils at 1k, but will not provide the level of precision as a dedicated LR optic in that space.
I’ve been chasing that rabbit for years now, and the only scope that I think kisses that space costs $2475.
If you’re really limited to the $550 budget, I would recommend the GRSC 1.1-10x30 Full Spectrum Optic for $575, but they’re out of stock.
I have multiple Vortex Viper PSTs, GRSC 1-4x, GRSC 1-6x, and 1-10x LPVOs. If I had to grab just 1 SHTF/Hunting/Multigun/LR optic, it would be the Vortex Razor 1-10x24 Gen III.
If I was limited in budget, I would grab either the GRSC Japanese 1-6x24 or the 1.1-10x30 Full Spectrum Optic if I could find one.
(BTW, none of the electronics, boards, semi conductors, or components in any of the JSF/F-35 variants are made in China. They freaked out when they discovered that a vendor had sourced steel from China for one of the landing gear strut components, and quickly put a stop to that years ago. That’s how tightly-controlled the components are for JSF. They won’t even allow raw materials from China. All the Semi-conductors, boards, and electronic subcomponents are made in the US or UK under strict oversight and Mil-Std/NATO controls.)
I may have missed it, but I didn’t see any mention of optical/mechanical reliability/durability on a gas gun with heavy reciprocating mass effects that are known for breaking optics. I have seen it personally happen with 6.5 Grendel and Nikon Tactical (discontinued), where the objective piece broke loose.
What I’m tracking is some desire for the following, but not sure of the order:
For SHTF, 18” is pushing towards the longer end but is still doable.
SHTF optics should start off with a regional terrain analysis, and you need to determine the likelihood of the balance between Close Quarters Marksmanship and intermediate range covering observation/fire for people/vehicles in your group if applicable.
But a SHTF optic needs to be reliable first. Anything under that $500 price point normally doesn’t hold up well in my experience, so they are a waste of time and money if you’re serious, especially on a gas gun. When I say, “In my experience”, I mean having watched Grendels, AR-15s, AR-10s, and other semi-auto rifles come through my DM and Carbine courses dating back to 2013, and my own high volume schedule shooting Grendel since 2009 trying multiple optics on Grendels ranging from 24” down to 12”.
These are just a few from 20” down to 12”.
Top is set up for distance out to 1200yds with Leupold HD.
18” LaRue set up for intermediate range/SHTF with GRSC Japanese LOW 1-6x24
16” Lilja set up for hunting/intermediate range DMR with Burris 1.5-6x
12” set up for SHTF/intermediate range SHTF/HD. That set-up surprisingly got me out to 800yds on 36”x24” steel buffalo TGT with 9/10 hot rate with 2 different types of factory ammo, the 123gr Hornady AG and Federal 120gr OTM Match, which have some of the lost BCs of any factory loads out there. Elevation was 6600ft, so air is thin at that range.
You’re basically asking for a scope that smashes the capabilities of all of these into one, which is an extremely tall order.
HD leans towards a smaller carbine/pistol, but an 18” will still do it, provided you practice maneuvering under stress inside the confines of a furniture-filled room at night.
18” is ideal for Whitetail hunting with the right optic. Since most hunting distances are within 200yds, most optics will work fine for that, ambient illumination being a big factor. For the dawn/dusk shots, superior glass wins that game at a premium price, whereas most sub-$1k optics don’t cut it. One exception I’ve found to that is the Vortex Viper 2.5-10x32 PST, but others have had the opposite experience with it. Before my eyes went into the post-40yr drain, I could hit my 12” steel poppers at night out to 565yds with my 18” Lilja Grendel topped with the 2.5-10x32 Viper PST.
Multigun is best served with a high-end LPVO, but can be done with some lesser optics and still allow you to place mid-high pack if you practice more relevant stage management and are up against lesser-experienced competitors. You can have a lot of fun with a decent optic, doesn’t need to be NF, Vortex, Razor, Leica, etc.
1000yds is best-served with higher-end glass quality with repeatable/reliable tracking or really good glass with stadia/tree reticle and side focus.
You’re basically asking in a really long-winded way for a unicorn optic that will do it all, on a budget that barely covers the scope mount, to be attached to an upper that is known for probably the lowest performance in the industry just in terms of chamber specs, concentricity, etc.
When I was in a similar position, I bought my barrel/bolt combos from known/reputable sources and pieced together my upper. I wasn’t on as limited of a budget, but I still like to get deals and be frugal so I can spend more on optics and ammo-the real cost considerations.
For optics, you could find one optic that would cover SHTF, hunting, and Multigun, but it won’t cover 1000yd shooting well. An LPVO will do the first 3. Some of the better, more recent LPVOs will do a marginal job of allowing suppressing fire out to 1k, and the higher-end ones will allow increased hit probability on full IPSC sils at 1k, but will not provide the level of precision as a dedicated LR optic in that space.
I’ve been chasing that rabbit for years now, and the only scope that I think kisses that space costs $2475.
If you’re really limited to the $550 budget, I would recommend the GRSC 1.1-10x30 Full Spectrum Optic for $575, but they’re out of stock.
I have multiple Vortex Viper PSTs, GRSC 1-4x, GRSC 1-6x, and 1-10x LPVOs. If I had to grab just 1 SHTF/Hunting/Multigun/LR optic, it would be the Vortex Razor 1-10x24 Gen III.
If I was limited in budget, I would grab either the GRSC Japanese 1-6x24 or the 1.1-10x30 Full Spectrum Optic if I could find one.
(BTW, none of the electronics, boards, semi conductors, or components in any of the JSF/F-35 variants are made in China. They freaked out when they discovered that a vendor had sourced steel from China for one of the landing gear strut components, and quickly put a stop to that years ago. That’s how tightly-controlled the components are for JSF. They won’t even allow raw materials from China. All the Semi-conductors, boards, and electronic subcomponents are made in the US or UK under strict oversight and Mil-Std/NATO controls.)
TL;DR: SHTF>Carbine Competition>HD, abandoned 1k and hunting. Not sure if I should spend more on the optic, a barrel and bolt, or on training with this year's budget now.
Thank you all,
I am overwhelmed by everyone’s continued dosing of tailored wisdom, and I will be absorbing and researching these newly given leads. In addition to gratitude, I also wanted to share some follow-up questions provoked by these insights sooner than later. I apologize that my long-winded tendency is only encouraged by the depth and value of insights I have been granted and the crossroads they put me at.
I am thankful at everyone’s persistence that my first-principles, understanding, and priorities take foreground above technical details. For those who asked and want to see this call for reconceptualization actualized, here it is. For those who have given me all they’d like (which has been a wealth), feel free to disembark with my gratitude. Here we go.
Is $550 sufficient for just the SHTF role? Is a BCA upper?
Sharpening priorities a third time as requested, benefiting from continual advice
Circumstances
Since folks here have pushed for a holistic approach of prioritizing training and equipment, I will present the options more exhaustively.
Options
Who knows. You all have been very generous for stooping to address my narrow circumstance and overly broad ideas. If you’ve read this far I am even more in your debt. Whatever the case, I think I have enough information to reflect on for a while.
Thank you all,
I am overwhelmed by everyone’s continued dosing of tailored wisdom, and I will be absorbing and researching these newly given leads. In addition to gratitude, I also wanted to share some follow-up questions provoked by these insights sooner than later. I apologize that my long-winded tendency is only encouraged by the depth and value of insights I have been granted and the crossroads they put me at.
I am thankful at everyone’s persistence that my first-principles, understanding, and priorities take foreground above technical details. For those who asked and want to see this call for reconceptualization actualized, here it is. For those who have given me all they’d like (which has been a wealth), feel free to disembark with my gratitude. Here we go.
Is $550 sufficient for just the SHTF role? Is a BCA upper?
- It really didn’t occur to me just how unsure or limited the lifespan of optics on gas guns could be.
- SHTF economics are multilayered. Hearing #1 helps me understand that optics use value is even more nonlinear than I thought. In other words, the second $550 toward a $1100 optic may be more valuable than the first $550, if one weighs the likelihood of one’s life depending on the optic very seriously. Thus, perhaps the positively skewed and leptokurtic optic price distribution is not a representation of optimized value for this purpose, but may be more reflective of consumer pain points, ones that I myself have fallen into. I fully retract my hope that commodified serviceable optics have been realized.
- This aids in informed priorities. It is disappointing but I have to accept that. My original objective was hoping that the Pareto Principle applied; that one could get 80% of the benefits from 20% of the inputs. In other words, just having a rifle that functions reliably and some way to aim it now is better than waiting a few years to graduate for the pursuits and learning I’ve envisioned.
- I had originally soothed myself with the history of people who have survived worse or competed serviceably with equipment made by the lowest bidder. It is worth considering that though we may think our lives priceless, economic realities mean we all put a real dollar value on protecting our lives from the day-to-day or the worst imaginable in many ways, whether it is investing in heath, insurance, safety equipment, or emergency gear like this.
- I use a risk-matrix to allocate attention and funds in these circumstances, and I had put SHTF in the unlikely or rare, and critical or catastrophic categories of a standard DoD/ISO matrix. This suggests medium preparedness, which I have been using to moderate my attention and fund allocation. But given #2, perhaps there isn’t as much of a “medium” optic in terms of reliability, or rifle in terms of accuracy. This might help me reconsider and sacrifice in other areas, as I had previously to get from $250 to $550.
- I appreciate those who did not dismiss out of hand that a person deserved to be somewhat equipped at such low dollar amounts. I don’t know how much time it might take me to make the next exponential gain in optics funds, but I will work in that direction while likely using something lesser with a more thorough understanding of the compromise.
- No element of my platform is quite up to muster. Would anyone advise investing elsewhere than the optic in addition to training, knowing that I have a BCA upper? In other words, was my original gambit to get the cheapest ticket to entry into practice and instruction better than sacrificing this time to wait for Gucci gear, or am I inhibiting my opportunities to learn by using crap?
Sharpening priorities a third time as requested, benefiting from continual advice
- 1k: I think I should give up on 1k until funds allow a dedicated platform. Stories like LRRPF52 and others’ of surprising themselves at 1k with compromised platforms and general 6.5 Grendel lore lead me to believe it was possible. I now understand the surprise to mean that it isn’t reliably possible, nor optimal.
- HD: Thank you to multiple folks for the recommendations and the conditional encouragement that this rifle/optic platform will serve when pressed into the HD role, given compensatory practice. As alluded to when referring to practicing with light bounce, I do “clear” my house with the rifle at night at least once a week, putting blue painter’s tape here and there for novel targets. I find that breaking into high-port around tight quarters almost makes up for the rifle’s OAL for my purposes. This has been part of my larger hope that work ethic in practice/competition and instruction could compensate for fewer resources. This belief and strategy, always accurate or not, is the main ethos underpinning my trajectory from youth in rural poverty in a crumbling house with disabled and complacent parents to near completion of my PhD hundreds of miles away. It is still the only move I have for now, aside from often over-effortful information gathering. I don’t say this to toot my horn, but to conclusively validate the appraisals that I have erred in trying to make too much out of too little, and in being too academic. I will remember the more demanding and pragmatic equipment specifications I have been taught when this is no longer the case.
- Practical Carbine Competition: The thing about competition is the entry fees and lower round counts make a competition almost cheaper than the equivalent time at a flat range. That $/learning value proposition is what has driven me to compete. I am torn about whether more time (so my skills are to muster for HD and SHTF) is of greater utility, or whether I should budget for better gear and forgo training/practice. I moulded kydex and sewed myself esstac kywi knockoffs that function well enough for the stakes in gun games, as another indicator of my commitment and belief that it is better to be earlier to practice with something “good enough.” But I am wondering if I have it wrong.
- SHTF: Mostly captured above. I do #3 because it is one rewarding distraction from the dissertation and because of SHTF/HD. I am certified to use a tourniquet/pressure dressing and am an ultralight backpacker in pursuit of broader self-reliance. If other training is recommended to this end I can cut budget elsewhere.
- Hunting: As mentioned, it is an invitation for one trip that I can turn down if I am wrong about snagging this utility while satisfying the primary foci.
Circumstances
Since folks here have pushed for a holistic approach of prioritizing training and equipment, I will present the options more exhaustively.
- My current gear is the BCA grendel with a Burris Fastfire II offset red dot and an SWFA SS 10x in a MIUSA 20 MOA 1 piece mount https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019614720 . I have the gear for competition, a 20 gauge shotgun, 2 g26 Polymer80 lowers and a LCP II. I already traded my 12 gauge to get the BCA upper; I can get rid of other things as needed.
- The DMR class costs $695. I have everything but the variable optic and the bipod in the gear list http://thesitetraining.com/designated-marksman-rifle
- Each competition costs $30 and eats ~100 rounds. I already have 1500 rounds. There are 4 more competitions this season.
- A club near me with a 600 yard range has a student membership for $60. This would take me past my 300 yd comfort zone and I can teach myself as far as possible instead of taking a class if need be.
- I sacrifice in every other budget category to the maximum. I cut my own hair and primarily eat rice and ramen and vegetables grown with my automated hydroponics system which uses a dishwasher pump I salvaged from a dumpster. I rebuilt a totaled car bought for $400 from an insurance auction for my daily driver and fixed my 6 year old laptop by following NASA’s field guide for soldering MLCCs with a $12 iron and a toaster oven. I built a pseudo-PAPR with grey-market medical parts for my mother with respiratory and immune issues to use during this pandemic. Like I said, I sewed my own kywis and traded my 12 gauge. I swear I am not obsessed with the compensatory value of work-ethic and autodidactism with no proof-of-concept, as annoying as my persistence has been, but I will retool this aim however you advise. There is only so far this can take you, and it always takes me a second to accept when I hit a wall.
- I have $1350 more to spend this year. The above is $875, and I expect to get $250 back for my SS 10x, thus the $550 total for a variable optic and a 9.6% budget buffer or for a bipod + buffer. If I sell the offset red-dot and mount ($170) and put it all in a LPVO, that’s $720.
- Any economic ingenuity or compromise outside the shooting sphere is untouchable for these purposes. My uncharacteristic savings rate for my fellowship funding and a widow for this hobby only comes from this self-discipline. I’ve planned these purchases/this budget since the beginning of the year.
Options
- I fuck off from shooting and pestering others for knowledge for now until I earn more. I am genuinely fine with this if it is what folks advise.
- Cut out training for better optic/rifle (barrel and bolt combo).
- Mid optics ($720 LPVO, $550 mid-variable + red dot) and above training.
- Shit optics (SWFA SS + red dot) and more training or better rifle.
- Sell 20 gauge and/or G26 lowers and more training and/or a better optic or rifle.
Who knows. You all have been very generous for stooping to address my narrow circumstance and overly broad ideas. If you’ve read this far I am even more in your debt. Whatever the case, I think I have enough information to reflect on for a while.
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P.S. I am probably misinformed regarding the F-35. The semi-sensationalist hubbub about Shenzhen Fastprint owning eXeption PCB was the basis for my understanding. Looking further, GE and Lockheed insist that only bare boards are manufactured in China and eXception PCB does not have access to sensitive boardviews. It looks like some Tory UK politicians and commander of Naval Air Systems Command US Navy Vice Adm. Dean Peters disagree however and think the supplier is still a threat. I’m not finding the primary MoD document which is a blow to the veracity of the story.
https://www.ft.com/content/fbe3815f-5c8d-4579-8dd3-427bd2a0149b , https://www.airforcemag.com/hasc-ci...ut-f-35-readiness-chair-suggests-buy-cutback/ , https://news.sky.com/story/f-35-jet...-parts-for-top-secret-uk-us-fighters-11741889
https://www.ft.com/content/fbe3815f-5c8d-4579-8dd3-427bd2a0149b , https://www.airforcemag.com/hasc-ci...ut-f-35-readiness-chair-suggests-buy-cutback/ , https://news.sky.com/story/f-35-jet...-parts-for-top-secret-uk-us-fighters-11741889
Looks like the GRSC is made in china by the same manufacturer of the Atibal 1-10, where the 1-6 was LOW manufactured.
www.ar15.com
I see you contributed there LRRPF52. A lot of their talk about Chinese manufacture parallels what was said in the present thread. I also see Ed Verdugo is my kind of nerd.
I am watching Ed's 16-video reticle tutorial series, and I also see that for the 1-4 you had success with your 12" Grendel using the distance-specific stadia lines. As far as I am learning there is a 5.56 and a 7.62 reticle; did one of those work for you? Perhaps only the prototypes were caliber-specific. LRRPF52, it's your accounts like these over the years with Grendels that got me into this project to start with, honestly. And Ilya's writings that oriented me in optics.
The New GRSC 1.1-10x30 Full Spectrum Optic (FSO) - AR15.COM
Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.
www.ar15.com I see you contributed there LRRPF52. A lot of their talk about Chinese manufacture parallels what was said in the present thread. I also see Ed Verdugo is my kind of nerd.
I am watching Ed's 16-video reticle tutorial series, and I also see that for the 1-4 you had success with your 12" Grendel using the distance-specific stadia lines. As far as I am learning there is a 5.56 and a 7.62 reticle; did one of those work for you? Perhaps only the prototypes were caliber-specific. LRRPF52, it's your accounts like these over the years with Grendels that got me into this project to start with, honestly. And Ilya's writings that oriented me in optics.
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While your BCA build isn't ideal, you have a rifle in hand with ammo to shoot. That's more than a lot of people can say these days. Your SWFA optic is rugged & reliable, and the offset red dot gives your rig some serious flexibility. I'd say run what you have, see how it performs, and get some quality trigger time behind this rifle before you invest any more money in "gear". I'd want to make sure that your setup is reliable & accurate before investing $700 in a class - so start with the local ranges & competitions to expose any weakness in your capabilities or gear. Once you get some real-world experience with this rig, you can decide where your resources can be best allocated and go from there.
To summarize earlier posts (I understand it is a longwinded thread, so it's nbd to repeat) I have been for the last 13 months including carbine competitions. I did an middling job shooting bolt action for years and rimfire and airgun years before that. I find an offset red-dot very natural with practice. I found the FOV to be a little tight in a competition stage with small steel ringers at 100 yards. The SWFA reticle is easy to understand for bench shooting to 300 yards. I haven't tried bench shooting in low light. One of my competitions had an overcast day and the large objective on the SWFA worked fine. In other words, it works well enough. But the focus ring is stuck now. SWFA told me to return it, and that I could add funds if I wanted to replace it with one of their variable-power optics. That got me to open pandora's box on adding funds and considering variable powers and here we are.
I could ask them to replace it with another 10x SWFA and use it up to the 600 yard range to practice all I can this year and save the class for after I reach a plateau. Is that in the spirit of your recommendation?
18” and shorter 6.5 Grendel will absolutely reach out to 1000yds in conditions that are common for those of us living in Mountain West States at higher altitudes. For people living closer to sea level, the 20”+ barrels become more of a consideration for that.Looks like the GRSC is made in china by the same manufacturer of the Atibal 1-10, where the 1-6 was LOW manufactured.
The New GRSC 1.1-10x30 Full Spectrum Optic (FSO) - AR15.COM
Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.
I see you contributed there LRRPF52. A lot of their talk about Chinese manufacture parallels what was said in the present thread. I also see Ed Verdugo is my kind of nerd.
I am watching Ed's 16-video reticle tutorial series, and I also see that for the 1-4 you had success with your 12" Grendel using the distance-specific stadia lines. As far as I am learning there is a 5.56 and a 7.62 reticle; did one of those work for you? Perhaps only the prototypes were caliber-specific. LRRPF52, it's your accounts like these over the years with Grendels that got me into this project to start with, honestly. And Ilya's writings that oriented me in optics.
When I shoot my 12” Grendel out to 800yds, that range is at 6600ft elevation, which I make a point to include. That air is really thin.
With the 1-4x GRSC, I used the 800 stadia as my initial POA and got my register, then used that impact point of the actual splash for my new POA reference and moved it onto the TGT, followed by continuous “dings”.
That Korean 1-4x GRSC scope was discontinued over a decade ago due to its inability to hold up to semi auto fire. It has excellent FOV though and mine have really clear glass that makes shooting at 800yds a very pleasant experience. The 1.1-10x30 has been tested on Full Auto, LMT .308s, and multiple 7.62 platforms with no failures that I’m aware of.
Almost all my 1000yd+ work with 6.5 Grendel has been with 2.5-10x44, 2.5-10x32 scopes set to 10x, with some larger scopes on longer-barreled Grendels as well. NF, Razors, Mk.6, etc.
The optic I’m looking at now is the March 1-10x24 Shorty, which will make a sick combo for lightweight Grendels.
One thing I’ve noticed from shooter perspective is that I don’t see a perceptible difference in performance between a 12”, 16”, or 18” Grendel. I can show you the data how different they are all, but there isn’t a feel for that when shooting them in terms of bullet impact/Time of Flight/hit probability.
I didn’t even have that 1-4x zeroed when I took it out first, just did a berm-check at 100yds, adjusted quickly off that, then started slinging led at distances over that ascending canyon range.
I’m with drew on this though. A working BCA that performs at x is better than 2 Gucci Grendel ARs on back-order at this time.
The appeal to Grendel for SHTF is that a compact package can really cover down on CQM, vehicle defense from within, overwatch for getting through opportunistic criminal highway robber checkpoints, and hunting. The biggest disadvantages are ammo supply (for those that didn’t prepare), non common caliber with most of the ARs in the wild, slightly less magazine capacity.
My 18” Grendels have been my go-to rifles for shooting practical LR since 2014, and are set up for that. My Wasp barrel ~18” Lilja Grendel is very lightweight and handy, so it would work well even in SHTF, but has exposed TGT knobs on the 2.5-10x32 Viper PST FFP/MRAD optic. I am of the opinion, after many decades of carrying rifles in the field, that exposed TGT knobs are not ideal for a field rifle. You really have to take extra precautions to ensure those turrets don’t get bumped, turned, or smashed. Think about getting in and out of vehicles, climbing, riding ATVs, horses, other people picking up your rifle, etc.
That’s another big plus for the Razor Gen 3.
- Does the blessing of the LOW GRSC apply to other LOW made optics? That's what I assumed.
- Is there something variable in the $550-$720 range that is more reliable with gas guns?
- I agree about target turrets; I bitched about them a little earlier in this thread.
- I hear that the Chinese GRSC 1.1-10 has been tested with long-action semiautos. Is a track record like this a sufficient standard to apply to other Chinese optics in the price range? I cant find their manufacturer, though I know it is the same as the Atibal 1-10. Does anyone know of any other china/Korea/Philippine manufactured reliability exceptions that join the GRSC in your mind? Some of the optics Ilya recommended?
- SWFA SS 3-9x42 (tall turrets, LOW Japan)
- SWFA SS 3-15 (tall turrets, Kenko Tokina Japan)
- Athlon Helos 2-12x44 (mid turrets, Sam Electrical, China)
- Primary Arms GLx 2.5-10x44 (mid turrets, Scopro, Philippines)
- Trijicon Credo 2-10x36 (mid turrets)
- Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10 (mid turrets, Changhong, China)
- Or others recommended:
- Viper Gen II PST 3-15x44 (mid turrets, Kenko Philippines)
- Viper PST 2.5-10x44 or 2-10 (mid turrets, Scopro or Kenko, Philippines)
- Burris 1.5-6x (discontinued, mid turrets)
- Burris RT-6
- 3.5-10x Leupold Mk4
- Weaver 3-15 Tactical
- Bushnell LRTS 4.5-18 (discontinued, mid turrets, LOW Japan)
- Others I've found:
- Meopta Optica6 1-6, or 3-18, (mid turrets, Meopta, Czech Republic)
- Burris XTR II 3-15 (mid turrets, Scopro, Philippines)
- What I have:
- SWFA SS 10x (tall turrets, Kenko Tokina Japan)
- It doesn't look like the production 1.1-10 GRSC has a caliber-specific reticle? Does anyone think the rounding done to make the "rule of 10" range estimation marks is less ideal than the humanoid dimensional standard used by every other manufacturer?
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I’ll just say that after decades of watching different scopes in high volume courses, precision rifle courses, competitions, and my own courses, I made a rule for myself long ago to never roll the dice with low-end scopes and many of the $800-$1200 scopes (Mk IV TGT Turret Leupold as one example).
Even some of the reliable lower-end scopes just don’t have the right kind of reticle options (Burris), outlier features nobody wants or asked for. I’ve always had to pay for exactly what I wanted, even with missing features.
That rule of 10 used by GRSC is actually excellent and more intuitive than any other ballistic stadia I have used. The rule of 10 is based off of rough humanoid features related to the head. The ranging scales based on dudes standing perfectly erect in the open are almost useless, unless observing an environment where people are just walking around without any stress of being fired upon.
What I’ve found with the GRSC reticles is that I naturally settle into the range on the stadia based on those 10” circles, even when shooting IPSC sils. I don’t even mess with the incorrect stadia line, because the circles naturally find themselves settling into the TGT at the correct stadia drop. Your mind doesn’t naturally put a 10” circle over a sil at 500yds if that 10” circle is bigger than the silhouette, does that make sense?
Every scope manufacturer who targets the AR market knocked off some features of the GRSC reticle, without delivering the full feature set of the 10” circles, windage holds, and mover holds. It’s a very well thought-out reticle design for practical shooting at distance, as well as the horseshoe that practically everyone uses for Close Range. Every really good LPVO scope I come across, I have always said, “I wish this had the GRSC reticle in it.” That is true for my Razor Gen III 1-10x as well, although the MOA version comes really close:
Even scopes that I don’t necessarily like would jump to the top of my use preference if they had the GRSC reticle in them, even the Burris 1.5-6x42.
Any mil relation formula-based reticles are lucky to provide you with usable numbers out to 450 yards when you’re not under stress. The probability error for reticle-based range estimation spirals away rapidly on you after that. It works fine on known dimension sils though, provided they are perpendicular to you and the optical clarity from a perfectly-stable position is available to you.
I’ve been at matches where they purposely offset the angles on pop-up sils to screw with range estimation, and no LRFs were allowed on those stages. Favors cartridges with flat trajectory and teams who were used to doing a lot of Range Estimation exercises.
The one low-end optic that jumped out at me even before you posted that is the Swampfox 1-10 Arrowhead. I have zero experience with them and I know what it looks like when you put that recipe in the oven for the price point/SFP/anemic illumination.
A buddy of mine relates the axiom his father told him: “Only wealthy men can afford cheap things."
Even some of the reliable lower-end scopes just don’t have the right kind of reticle options (Burris), outlier features nobody wants or asked for. I’ve always had to pay for exactly what I wanted, even with missing features.
That rule of 10 used by GRSC is actually excellent and more intuitive than any other ballistic stadia I have used. The rule of 10 is based off of rough humanoid features related to the head. The ranging scales based on dudes standing perfectly erect in the open are almost useless, unless observing an environment where people are just walking around without any stress of being fired upon.
What I’ve found with the GRSC reticles is that I naturally settle into the range on the stadia based on those 10” circles, even when shooting IPSC sils. I don’t even mess with the incorrect stadia line, because the circles naturally find themselves settling into the TGT at the correct stadia drop. Your mind doesn’t naturally put a 10” circle over a sil at 500yds if that 10” circle is bigger than the silhouette, does that make sense?
Every scope manufacturer who targets the AR market knocked off some features of the GRSC reticle, without delivering the full feature set of the 10” circles, windage holds, and mover holds. It’s a very well thought-out reticle design for practical shooting at distance, as well as the horseshoe that practically everyone uses for Close Range. Every really good LPVO scope I come across, I have always said, “I wish this had the GRSC reticle in it.” That is true for my Razor Gen III 1-10x as well, although the MOA version comes really close:
Even scopes that I don’t necessarily like would jump to the top of my use preference if they had the GRSC reticle in them, even the Burris 1.5-6x42.
Any mil relation formula-based reticles are lucky to provide you with usable numbers out to 450 yards when you’re not under stress. The probability error for reticle-based range estimation spirals away rapidly on you after that. It works fine on known dimension sils though, provided they are perpendicular to you and the optical clarity from a perfectly-stable position is available to you.
I’ve been at matches where they purposely offset the angles on pop-up sils to screw with range estimation, and no LRFs were allowed on those stages. Favors cartridges with flat trajectory and teams who were used to doing a lot of Range Estimation exercises.
The one low-end optic that jumped out at me even before you posted that is the Swampfox 1-10 Arrowhead. I have zero experience with them and I know what it looks like when you put that recipe in the oven for the price point/SFP/anemic illumination.
A buddy of mine relates the axiom his father told him: “Only wealthy men can afford cheap things."
So the GRSC is designed for M118 LR (175 grain) ammo fired from a 16 in. 1-10 twist barrel .308 rifle.
I see the recommendation is to zero different loadings using the 300 yd stadia at 300 yds and everything else should be serviceable? Let me do the math.
Another reticle with circles for head estimation that correspond to the range-specific stadia. https://www.badassoptic.com/how-to-use-acss-hud-dmr-reticle/
Ed's reticle seems to share that feature with a few reticles, some older it appears. An even bigger subset use vertical and horizontal stadia but I can see the argument that the head, being almost a sphere, is most consistent in reference dimension from any angle.
If I am not twisted around, the GRSC and the Arrowhead are almost the same optic with almost the same featureset at similar prices, except the GRSC is FFP which I thought was more costly to manufacture effectively? But you're right, I am not so interested in SFP.
I see the recommendation is to zero different loadings using the 300 yd stadia at 300 yds and everything else should be serviceable? Let me do the math.
Another reticle with circles for head estimation that correspond to the range-specific stadia. https://www.badassoptic.com/how-to-use-acss-hud-dmr-reticle/
Ed's reticle seems to share that feature with a few reticles, some older it appears. An even bigger subset use vertical and horizontal stadia but I can see the argument that the head, being almost a sphere, is most consistent in reference dimension from any angle.
If I am not twisted around, the GRSC and the Arrowhead are almost the same optic with almost the same featureset at similar prices, except the GRSC is FFP which I thought was more costly to manufacture effectively? But you're right, I am not so interested in SFP.
The trajectories at hand. Pretty photo, and raw data to make it easier for people to copy. Am I missing something or is the GRSC reticle for the M118LR out of a 16" barrel a bad fit for a 18" Grendel? Really diverges after 600 yards. But I guess I'd be dreaming to try to do much with a BCA past that, and the class/the range with a student discount are max 600.
| 6.5G, 5/25/21 | 100 yd zero | 100 yd zero | 300 yd zero | 300 yd zero | ||
| M118 LR 175 16" | Hor Black 123 18" | Difference | M118 LR 175 16" | Hor Black 123 18" | Difference | |
| Range | Drop | Drop | Drop | Drop | ||
| (yd) | (in) | (in) | (in) | (in) | ||
| 0 | -1.5 | -1.5 | 0 | -1.5 | -1.5 | 0 |
| 100 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 5.9 | 5.9 | 0 |
| 200 | -5.1 | -5 | -0.1 | 6.8 | 6.7 | 0.1 |
| 300 | -17.8 | -17.6 | -0.2 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 400 | -39.5 | -39 | -0.5 | -15.7 | -15.5 | -0.2 |
| 500 | -71.6 | -70.6 | -1 | -41.9 | -41.3 | -0.6 |
| 600 | -116.1 | -114.3 | -1.8 | -80.5 | -79.2 | -1.3 |
| 700 | -175.2 | -172.3 | -2.9 | -133.7 | -131.2 | -2.5 |
| 800 | -251.6 | -246.9 | -4.7 | -204.1 | -200 | -4.1 |
| 900 | -348.2 | -341.2 | -7 | -294.8 | -288.5 | -6.3 |
| 1000 | -468.5 | -458.4 | -10.1 | -409.2 | -399.7 | -9.5 |
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Your friend's father's axiom reminds me of Terry Pratchett's boots theory of economics: "A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet." I wear goodyear welted US handsewn boots I got secondhand, and generally adhere to this economic saw. But are we saying the "good boot" equivalent scope is $2k? Definitely more than I've spent on each of the 5 cars I've owned in my life.
I am also seeing poor reviews of the 1.1-10 GRSC durability, and am not seeing anything that puts them above Philippine or Japanese scopes. Maybe above other Chinese scopes, but just maybe.
Back to my observation that though our lives are ideally equivalent in pricelessness, our faculties to preserve them are individually limited. I simply have to roll the dice as you say and take on greater risk than someone who can rule out scopes under $1200.
What are the scopes in that $800-1200 range that are not on your shit list?
I am also seeing poor reviews of the 1.1-10 GRSC durability, and am not seeing anything that puts them above Philippine or Japanese scopes. Maybe above other Chinese scopes, but just maybe.
Back to my observation that though our lives are ideally equivalent in pricelessness, our faculties to preserve them are individually limited. I simply have to roll the dice as you say and take on greater risk than someone who can rule out scopes under $1200.
What are the scopes in that $800-1200 range that are not on your shit list?
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Look at how closely they track. They’re practically dead-on with each other.
You can’t resolve or hold 2” difference at 600yds with that reticle, or most precision rifle reticles even. That’s a margin of error far finer than your heartbeat or breathing control effects on the reticle even from prone/bipod/rear bag.
Those drop charts show how ideal the 7.62 GRSC reticle is for 123gr Grendel, which we already know from running ballistics on them for years and seeing how a 123gr in the .5 G1 BC region from the same barrel length matches M118LR from the same barrel length.
I’ve been watching the whole saga with that reticle from the beginning, which dates back. Ed came up with it well before anybody else, went to all the optics manufacturers at SHOT and their own facilities on a campaign to get that reticle into LPVOs for Designated Marksmen and Dismounted Infantry soldiers. Every single optics manufacturer told him they weren’t interested, it would never sell, wasn’t right for them, etc., then the next year or so, they put a dumbed-down horseshoe reticle in their scopes. ACOG was the first one if I recall, then others followed until practically everyone has a horseshoe reticle, but without the ideal graduated ballistic stadia and rule of 10 circle intuitive ranging and indexing system.
One of the first GRSC reticle in the 1-4x24 scopes is set for 5.56x45 M855 from 14.5” barrel. It even said “M4-62” down in the bottom FOV on low power. The very first reticle was simpler and only went to 5 on the stadia. We’re talking in the early-late 2000s when he was working on all of this. A lot of the efforts started in the 1980s looking for a good DMR type optic, because nobody made one really with a stadia reticle for trajectory.
Wow, they really f'd Ed over. I buy that he's the originator, and I admire his passion and willingness to get deep in the weeds. That M4-62 reticle and that history make it clear he was ahead of his time.
That's a really good point about 2 inches at 600 yards. Hmmmmmm. Idiotproof ranging and holdovers are tempting. If 7.62 tracks closely, I guess that brings in competitors/design thieves; this being very close. https://www.primaryarms.com/glx-4-16x50-ffp-rifle-scope-acss-hud-dmr-308-reticle They are probably very similar so I can see deferring to GRSC for the ideal magnification and obviation of a RDS if I can find one.
That means I should finish the 16 video reticle explanation series. I can't wait to learn what the outside vertical dotted lines are for.
Thank you for teaching me about a scope that would have never appeared on curated lists, or otherwise presented any hope of SEO that would have showed up on google. I will get to learning.
That's a really good point about 2 inches at 600 yards. Hmmmmmm. Idiotproof ranging and holdovers are tempting. If 7.62 tracks closely, I guess that brings in competitors/design thieves; this being very close. https://www.primaryarms.com/glx-4-16x50-ffp-rifle-scope-acss-hud-dmr-308-reticle They are probably very similar so I can see deferring to GRSC for the ideal magnification and obviation of a RDS if I can find one.
That means I should finish the 16 video reticle explanation series. I can't wait to learn what the outside vertical dotted lines are for.
Thank you for teaching me about a scope that would have never appeared on curated lists, or otherwise presented any hope of SEO that would have showed up on google. I will get to learning.
Looks like Ed is out of the biz. Not finding anything used either. He took quite a tongue lashing here https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/What-ever-happened-to-GRSC-/18-760448/ that's rough
I see Norden Performance has the GRSC 1-6 design (probably by LOW) for $1k.
I see Norden Performance has the GRSC 1-6 design (probably by LOW) for $1k.
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More people have heard of the PA ACSS reticle, even though most of the market has been using horseshoes of some sort for 13 years.
Trijicon, Leupold, SIG, Burris (who is licensed to use the GRSC I think), and many others.
Leupold knocked off the CRS reticle with their weird DEVO optic:
Trijicon, Leupold, SIG, Burris (who is licensed to use the GRSC I think), and many others.
Leupold knocked off the CRS reticle with their weird DEVO optic:
DTR as a reticle obviating calculation to the max
Speaking of thoroughly calibrated BDC ranging and holdover reticles, David’s DTR reticle in your Jan 14 stream, Ilya, must be the pinnacle. Permitting range estimation a number of ways, adaptation to velocity, gyroscopic precession and it’s interaction with wind, angle firing, density altitude Nomo calculation, foot and motorized movers, and perhaps what the shooter had for lunch, the DTR is a marvel. Using open polygonal aiming points with sides that correspond in number to the distance unit’s hundreds place is genius elegance I am sure to see on other reticles eventually.
I have always thought there should be a browser game wherein a shooter can practice estimating range and holdovers; to see David has included this tells me he is even more my type of nerd.
FML-TR1, Optica6 MRAD
I appreciate your March and Meopta reticles Ilya. I feel your Meopta reticle is head and shoulders above their others. Their other reticles were the only thing that originally disqualified them for me. I like things, including my wife’s family, from the Czech Republic. Any interest in doing something with their DichroTech reticle magic coming out in August?
I agree with you and Northwest Guns that the Athlon reticle I’ve been referencing seems quite inspired by your March reticle.
You made a point after David departed that parallax adjustment mainly applies to roughly the middle 1/3rd or ½ of the reticle, varying from scope to scope and where the turrets are adjusted to. This changes my attitude toward deep trees a bit.
Jim Kauber’s opinion on trees, ranging, etc
You responded to someone asking in your stream about Jim Kauber that you might have him on. I emailed him when I originally offered to do so in this thread, and he replied.
He shared my concern about the ACSS, and said the AHMR2 is a more useful design as he and his class emphasize wind and moving leads.
Surprisingly to me (maybe not others), he said an Xmas tree is not the most efficient method of getting first-round hits. I asked for more on that.
He dislikes range estimating stadia preconfigured for certain dimensions, which I gleaned you do in some contexts as well. I thought the ZCO MPCT3 you discussed with a 12” 18” based stadia was better than GRSC’s 10”, but I see the downside. David solved for some of this by having a wide range of dimensions pre-incorporated into his multidirectional stadia that can be applied to vehicles.
You might be surprised at what Jim prefers instead. You pointed out that you avoid .1 mil hashes in your reticle designs because you are skeptical that most people use the reticle for ranging, and if so, that they need .1 mil resolution. Jim says .1 or .2 increments are more practical as they can be used to range any size target with known dimensions. Based on this, I think you, your commenter, and I would agree that your audience would get lots of value from Jim joining the setting you’ve built to generously navigate reticle opinions, and from the fruits of your and Jim’s potentially (at least superficially) contrasting perspectives therein.
GRSC, design and uncovered unlicensed direct use
This all flies in the face of the GRSC, and touches on my (uniformed) skepticism. I like that 10” is about a human head and that it is about the same at most angles. I will say I was amused that when Ed measured the mannequin head used in his reticle tutorial, it was like 7.5 inches. To me, a 10” circle functionally turns your reticle into a base-10 shooter’s MOA optic. I get that Ed says a head is about 10, shoulders about 20, and torso about 30. I imagine about is probably plenty close enough to be worth the additional speed and intuitiveness.
Further on the GRSC thread, their likely most reliable (LOW 1-6) offering now by Norden Performance is actually available below MAP at $729 at Primary Arms right now.
Surprisingly, the original M4 62 reticle is being used by Vector Arms which is a chinese manufacturer with a US website, but also sold on Alibaba lol. You can get a 1-6 with a M4-62, or a 1-6 with a M4-26, fancy.
https://vectoroptics.en.alibaba.com...?spm=a2700.shop_plser.41413.27.40f02350vyAKmW
https://vectoroptics.en.alibaba.com...?spm=a2700.shop_plser.41413.14.4fd836bbzqYWn8
Gonna guess the license for the Ed’s earliest, Chinese manufactured scope he quickly discontinued didn’t extend to this use. Also gonna guess they don’t have the rights to claim another of their 1-6s has Schott glass, nor to use two different Metallica songs on their websites. That “Schott” glass scope has a 34mm tube, is $700, and has a lifetime warranty. I can’t figure out what brand’s line the unsold factory hour bonus runs for this optic came off of, but it is funny.
Breaking Intrasite PST deal
Additionally, a first gen PST 2.5-10X44 EBR-2 MRAD can suddenly be found at several places for ~$449 like Vortex just did something. Frustratingly, Optics Planet changed it from $409 to $449 in the last 24 hours. Is that a lot of optic per dollar either way? A tangent but interesting.
Overall
I don’t feel like I have any place to speculate on comparatively evaluating things. But it is clear that a DMR reticle is not a range-record-setting reticle, and not everyone agrees on what a DMR reticle is.
Sad that everyone but Ed seems to have found a way to profit from this reticle. From him and everyone else I’m seeing that the music business and the reticle business appear similar from way over here. Really think if you want to be indy or work with a label, create fast enough to keep ahead of imitators or go niche enough to have none, know good artists borrow, great artists steal, your own business partners here and abroad can be these great artists, and everyone likes something different.
Other thoughts
You suggested 6mm ARC will dominate from Hornady’s marketing. I told a SF friend of mine the same when their video marketing release was recommended to everyone on YouTube. The seemingly non-competitive small-batch contract awarded to Hornady, Barrett, Giessele, Proof Research, and OSS using 6mm ARC (I think before it was commercially announced) was to an undisclosed DoD customer, so I thought I’d tease him knowing that it was probably not going to SF, and because I knew he couldn’t go telling people like me either way. I think I will see how trajectories would work with BDC reticles and maybe a few years from now when that BCA gets a rebarrel and new bolt I can assess the market haha. I agree that wolf ammo for Grendel makes a bigger difference for plebs like me.
I had my eye on Crimson Trace’s developments for the same reasons you mentioned.
Speaking of thoroughly calibrated BDC ranging and holdover reticles, David’s DTR reticle in your Jan 14 stream, Ilya, must be the pinnacle. Permitting range estimation a number of ways, adaptation to velocity, gyroscopic precession and it’s interaction with wind, angle firing, density altitude Nomo calculation, foot and motorized movers, and perhaps what the shooter had for lunch, the DTR is a marvel. Using open polygonal aiming points with sides that correspond in number to the distance unit’s hundreds place is genius elegance I am sure to see on other reticles eventually.
I have always thought there should be a browser game wherein a shooter can practice estimating range and holdovers; to see David has included this tells me he is even more my type of nerd.
FML-TR1, Optica6 MRAD
I appreciate your March and Meopta reticles Ilya. I feel your Meopta reticle is head and shoulders above their others. Their other reticles were the only thing that originally disqualified them for me. I like things, including my wife’s family, from the Czech Republic. Any interest in doing something with their DichroTech reticle magic coming out in August?
I agree with you and Northwest Guns that the Athlon reticle I’ve been referencing seems quite inspired by your March reticle.
You made a point after David departed that parallax adjustment mainly applies to roughly the middle 1/3rd or ½ of the reticle, varying from scope to scope and where the turrets are adjusted to. This changes my attitude toward deep trees a bit.
Jim Kauber’s opinion on trees, ranging, etc
You responded to someone asking in your stream about Jim Kauber that you might have him on. I emailed him when I originally offered to do so in this thread, and he replied.
He shared my concern about the ACSS, and said the AHMR2 is a more useful design as he and his class emphasize wind and moving leads.
Surprisingly to me (maybe not others), he said an Xmas tree is not the most efficient method of getting first-round hits. I asked for more on that.
He dislikes range estimating stadia preconfigured for certain dimensions, which I gleaned you do in some contexts as well. I thought the ZCO MPCT3 you discussed with a 12” 18” based stadia was better than GRSC’s 10”, but I see the downside. David solved for some of this by having a wide range of dimensions pre-incorporated into his multidirectional stadia that can be applied to vehicles.
You might be surprised at what Jim prefers instead. You pointed out that you avoid .1 mil hashes in your reticle designs because you are skeptical that most people use the reticle for ranging, and if so, that they need .1 mil resolution. Jim says .1 or .2 increments are more practical as they can be used to range any size target with known dimensions. Based on this, I think you, your commenter, and I would agree that your audience would get lots of value from Jim joining the setting you’ve built to generously navigate reticle opinions, and from the fruits of your and Jim’s potentially (at least superficially) contrasting perspectives therein.
GRSC, design and uncovered unlicensed direct use
This all flies in the face of the GRSC, and touches on my (uniformed) skepticism. I like that 10” is about a human head and that it is about the same at most angles. I will say I was amused that when Ed measured the mannequin head used in his reticle tutorial, it was like 7.5 inches. To me, a 10” circle functionally turns your reticle into a base-10 shooter’s MOA optic. I get that Ed says a head is about 10, shoulders about 20, and torso about 30. I imagine about is probably plenty close enough to be worth the additional speed and intuitiveness.
Further on the GRSC thread, their likely most reliable (LOW 1-6) offering now by Norden Performance is actually available below MAP at $729 at Primary Arms right now.
Surprisingly, the original M4 62 reticle is being used by Vector Arms which is a chinese manufacturer with a US website, but also sold on Alibaba lol. You can get a 1-6 with a M4-62, or a 1-6 with a M4-26, fancy.
https://vectoroptics.en.alibaba.com...?spm=a2700.shop_plser.41413.27.40f02350vyAKmW
https://vectoroptics.en.alibaba.com...?spm=a2700.shop_plser.41413.14.4fd836bbzqYWn8
Gonna guess the license for the Ed’s earliest, Chinese manufactured scope he quickly discontinued didn’t extend to this use. Also gonna guess they don’t have the rights to claim another of their 1-6s has Schott glass, nor to use two different Metallica songs on their websites. That “Schott” glass scope has a 34mm tube, is $700, and has a lifetime warranty. I can’t figure out what brand’s line the unsold factory hour bonus runs for this optic came off of, but it is funny.
Breaking Intrasite PST deal
Additionally, a first gen PST 2.5-10X44 EBR-2 MRAD can suddenly be found at several places for ~$449 like Vortex just did something. Frustratingly, Optics Planet changed it from $409 to $449 in the last 24 hours. Is that a lot of optic per dollar either way? A tangent but interesting.
Overall
I don’t feel like I have any place to speculate on comparatively evaluating things. But it is clear that a DMR reticle is not a range-record-setting reticle, and not everyone agrees on what a DMR reticle is.
Sad that everyone but Ed seems to have found a way to profit from this reticle. From him and everyone else I’m seeing that the music business and the reticle business appear similar from way over here. Really think if you want to be indy or work with a label, create fast enough to keep ahead of imitators or go niche enough to have none, know good artists borrow, great artists steal, your own business partners here and abroad can be these great artists, and everyone likes something different.
Other thoughts
You suggested 6mm ARC will dominate from Hornady’s marketing. I told a SF friend of mine the same when their video marketing release was recommended to everyone on YouTube. The seemingly non-competitive small-batch contract awarded to Hornady, Barrett, Giessele, Proof Research, and OSS using 6mm ARC (I think before it was commercially announced) was to an undisclosed DoD customer, so I thought I’d tease him knowing that it was probably not going to SF, and because I knew he couldn’t go telling people like me either way. I think I will see how trajectories would work with BDC reticles and maybe a few years from now when that BCA gets a rebarrel and new bolt I can assess the market haha. I agree that wolf ammo for Grendel makes a bigger difference for plebs like me.
I had my eye on Crimson Trace’s developments for the same reasons you mentioned.
The biggest factor in reticle types is time. Most reticles are designed with the assumption that you can take your time referencing your drop and wind data card for known distance TGTs, dial for elevation, and get the center of a fine reticle close to the target.
GRSC CRS was designed to be a combat optic for guys in a rifle squad quickly engaging at UKD within common engagement distances, whether in urban or open terrain.
Also note that the height of a human head averages 10”, with width averaging more in the 7.5” range, regional genetic demographics-dependent. Since most heads pop out from behind cover at an angle, the 10” figure works better as a common distance (within 450yds) range estimator.
Once you start getting out past 450yds, even with .1 mil reticle hashes, your ability to determine range accurate enough to stay within the danger space of the trajectory on partially-exposed man-sized targets deteriorates rapidly, even with a solid rifle position with bipod and solid rear bag. You’re also lucky to get the prone position maybe 15% of the time out in real world conditions, including hunting. Now imagine trying to quickly range-estimate from improvised positions.
If you’ve ever gotten behind a rifle or mil reticle-equipped optics and tried to get accurate Mil readings even on E-types or IPSC sils at distance, you quickly see how inaccurate it is for range estimation as the distance increases. The best practical exercises I’ve done to that end were with a foreign army’s sniper community, where we sent a guy out into a large impact area in front of us, and also had a Kestrel on him so he could give us wind speed readings at each point he walked to. That way, we got to do range estimation and wind reading guesstimates with immediate feedback. He also held the Kestrel up high into the maximum ordinate height so we could see the difference between that and the speed at his chest height.
With stress comes increased error, and no time to be dialing or messing with turrets on the optic, looking at a homework sheets with data, or playing with ballistics calculators. I still use all those things for getting accurate 1st-round hits, but feed them into data I can use on the rifle/in my head from memory.
That’s why I like the Vortex Dope Disks, but with reticle picture holds on them for a practical set-up.
The Russians realized the practical nature of how they were going to employ their sniper systems after decades of history, starting with the German sniper program they were given in the 1930s, along with German optics. They also had a nice combo with the SVT-40 and a little optic on top for a lightweight semi-auto sniper system.
After the War, they developed the SVD/PSO-1 combo for their clean-sheet sniper system. They could have made a heavy-barreled target rifle with traditional target reticle, but all the after-action reports and input from their sniping community pushed them to make a lighter rifle that could be maneuvered with, using an optic that was quick and useful with a large FOV for SA. If you’ve ever used the PSO-1, it has very forgiving exit pupil under fire, with a wide FOV.
We’re at a stage now with optics where we want the best of both worlds, which is hard to do, but we’re getting much closer. The biggest disadvantage with the tree stadia reticles is the empty spaces between holds, where your first shot usually goes. You use that as your new aiming point for the quick follow-on shot if the TGT is still exposed.
We’re way outside of a $550 discussion though with a lot of this, but $550 buys you a lot more options than it used to. I used the Viper PST 2.5-10x44 MRAD for years for my TGT work on Grendel, but it has exposed turrets. I shot it on a .260 AR before putting it on my 16” Grendel, and never had issues with it over many years. The .260 AR or any large frame AR-10 will beat a scope to death if it isn’t built right. I put a 4-16x on the .260 after that.
GRSC CRS was designed to be a combat optic for guys in a rifle squad quickly engaging at UKD within common engagement distances, whether in urban or open terrain.
Also note that the height of a human head averages 10”, with width averaging more in the 7.5” range, regional genetic demographics-dependent. Since most heads pop out from behind cover at an angle, the 10” figure works better as a common distance (within 450yds) range estimator.
Once you start getting out past 450yds, even with .1 mil reticle hashes, your ability to determine range accurate enough to stay within the danger space of the trajectory on partially-exposed man-sized targets deteriorates rapidly, even with a solid rifle position with bipod and solid rear bag. You’re also lucky to get the prone position maybe 15% of the time out in real world conditions, including hunting. Now imagine trying to quickly range-estimate from improvised positions.
If you’ve ever gotten behind a rifle or mil reticle-equipped optics and tried to get accurate Mil readings even on E-types or IPSC sils at distance, you quickly see how inaccurate it is for range estimation as the distance increases. The best practical exercises I’ve done to that end were with a foreign army’s sniper community, where we sent a guy out into a large impact area in front of us, and also had a Kestrel on him so he could give us wind speed readings at each point he walked to. That way, we got to do range estimation and wind reading guesstimates with immediate feedback. He also held the Kestrel up high into the maximum ordinate height so we could see the difference between that and the speed at his chest height.
With stress comes increased error, and no time to be dialing or messing with turrets on the optic, looking at a homework sheets with data, or playing with ballistics calculators. I still use all those things for getting accurate 1st-round hits, but feed them into data I can use on the rifle/in my head from memory.
That’s why I like the Vortex Dope Disks, but with reticle picture holds on them for a practical set-up.
The Russians realized the practical nature of how they were going to employ their sniper systems after decades of history, starting with the German sniper program they were given in the 1930s, along with German optics. They also had a nice combo with the SVT-40 and a little optic on top for a lightweight semi-auto sniper system.
After the War, they developed the SVD/PSO-1 combo for their clean-sheet sniper system. They could have made a heavy-barreled target rifle with traditional target reticle, but all the after-action reports and input from their sniping community pushed them to make a lighter rifle that could be maneuvered with, using an optic that was quick and useful with a large FOV for SA. If you’ve ever used the PSO-1, it has very forgiving exit pupil under fire, with a wide FOV.
We’re at a stage now with optics where we want the best of both worlds, which is hard to do, but we’re getting much closer. The biggest disadvantage with the tree stadia reticles is the empty spaces between holds, where your first shot usually goes. You use that as your new aiming point for the quick follow-on shot if the TGT is still exposed.
We’re way outside of a $550 discussion though with a lot of this, but $550 buys you a lot more options than it used to. I used the Viper PST 2.5-10x44 MRAD for years for my TGT work on Grendel, but it has exposed turrets. I shot it on a .260 AR before putting it on my 16” Grendel, and never had issues with it over many years. The .260 AR or any large frame AR-10 will beat a scope to death if it isn’t built right. I put a 4-16x on the .260 after that.
If you have not bought glass yet, take a look at this Crimson Trace 5 Series. Midway has the 3-18 on sale at 600
www.midwayusa.com
Crimson Trace 5-Series Tactical Rifle Scope 34mm Tube 3-18x 50mm 1/10
The Crimson Trace 5-Series is a feature rich 3-18x 50mm mid-range rifle scope that has been purposefully built from the ground up. The scopes First...
www.midwayusa.com That’s not bad for Japanese glass. I wonder how it holds up to AR-10s....If you have not bought glass yet, take a look at this Crimson Trace 5 Series. Midway has the 3-18 on sale at 600
Crimson Trace 5-Series Tactical Rifle Scope 34mm Tube 3-18x 50mm 1/10
The Crimson Trace 5-Series is a feature rich 3-18x 50mm mid-range rifle scope that has been purposefully built from the ground up. The scopes First...
399 for JOL FFP not illuminated: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1020618935?pid=149367
And Bereli has the Riton X7 tactix for 499 still.
And Bereli has the Riton X7 tactix for 499 still.
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