I'm just curious about some sniping history, what are the furthest reaching long range sniping cartridges of all time? (Sub 20mm). I know some of the obvious possible contenders, 20mm, .50, .408, .388. But are there some forgotten rounds that went incredibly far? I know nothing about them but vaguely remember the .50 Fat Mac, and the anzio 20/50, and some sabot rounds. Surely there are some experimental WW2 rounds or something that went miles without going transonic?
- Thread starter jmar
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Well when you say "sniping" then you are referring to military application of long range fire....since the new world record kill, and most of the last decade long ranges kills were made with the .50 BMG then that might be the answer you are looking for..... which I am not saying is the best long range cartridge, but fits the phrasing of your question... a 155 howitzer would probably is a the next step up and an ICBM being the king slayer. The old 20mm where anti tank weapons back in the WW's and usually where used in fairly close proximity...close for a 20mm's potential. Hitting a tank isn't good enough, it needed to penetrate.
Sniping history as in combat you have to go with issue cartridges. 303 in WWI was effective out to 800 yards and beyond. 308 in Northern Ireland took targets at beyond 1000 yards.
Of course we have Canada with a 50 cal and UK with a 338 Lapua at ranges not once thought possible.
Of course we have Canada with a 50 cal and UK with a 338 Lapua at ranges not once thought possible.
It does not need to be military, I was just using the phrase sniping as in its less used and more historical definition of shooting at a challenging target. The reason I ask is just because I've been curious as to why there haven't been any major developments recently. There have been sub MOA and 1000 yard guns for 150+ years. What is stopping someone from taking a .50 cal bullet and making a cartridge with 2x the power that can go 5000+ yards accurately?
You should check out some of the equipment that the dudes were using for KO2M...and the shooters.
Do .300/.338 Norma qualify as recent developments? They seem to be taking the community by storm. They won't get you to 5000 yards but they are still new and innovative.
I think the reason you don't see people trying to push the capacity envelope beyond the .50 BMG is that velocity will only take you so far. Even if you could push a 750 A-Max at 4000 fps, making accurate wind calls at 3+ miles seems out of reach with current technology. Not to mention there are significant design challenges to going bigger, such as the increased bolt thrust from a larger case head diameter. And even if you could develop a load with single digit ES, a 5 fps spread in muzzle velocity from shot to shot would be the difference between a hit or a miss (watch David Tubb's very informative interview on here if you haven't already). Case capacity is only one aspect of a very challenging problem.
I think the reason you don't see people trying to push the capacity envelope beyond the .50 BMG is that velocity will only take you so far. Even if you could push a 750 A-Max at 4000 fps, making accurate wind calls at 3+ miles seems out of reach with current technology. Not to mention there are significant design challenges to going bigger, such as the increased bolt thrust from a larger case head diameter. And even if you could develop a load with single digit ES, a 5 fps spread in muzzle velocity from shot to shot would be the difference between a hit or a miss (watch David Tubb's very informative interview on here if you haven't already). Case capacity is only one aspect of a very challenging problem.
In a practical sense that's true but less so the tech limitations. If you had a few Windcubes along the bullet flight path, an integrated UberKestrel and enough trigger time to learn to use the data, who knows? Given the progression of ELR shooting, I don't think we yet have a handle on the limits.
I'm with you that the limits are still being pushed. But I do think there is a practical limit to cartridge case capacity. The OP asked why someone doesn't make a .50 with "2x the power." To do that would probably take a larger bolt face, which means larger/heavier action, larger/heavier stock, larger heavier barrel, etc. I don't doubt that it is technically possible, but to do so with sub-MOA precision in a platform that weighs less than 100 lbs?
It is a little thing called "physics" holding us back. So many variables need to be understood then tamed, the rifle built and then tuned.
The developments over the past 20 years have seen a move to more efficient case design (themes and variations on the PPC), more consistently mass produced and higher BC projectiles (track the impact Berger has had on the competition) and better powder (increased energy, temp stability). Now too we have the scopes and actions produced to reduce variables and the gunsmithing knowledge to limit faults in barrel fitting.
Also, at the end of the 90s, 1000 yards was a long way. It still is but more and more people can shoot it. The Imperial Mile is the next mainstream benchmark to make common place but not many ranges extend beyond 1200 yards.
The current development seems to be with the 375 CT and variants. I like the 375 Lethal Magnum http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...oad-dev-375-caliber-400-grainers-at-3290-fps/ but the powder column may be too long for consistent shot to shot ignition (this is physics interfering with dreams again). If you want to see state of the art for ultra long range this is it - taking Short Range Benchrest skills, knowledge and techniques and running it out to the far beyond.
Now if you are looking a the percentage of the global shooting population who are interested, have the skills, time and money to invest, and then have a range to shoot on to hone these skills. Maybe 100 - globally?
The developments over the past 20 years have seen a move to more efficient case design (themes and variations on the PPC), more consistently mass produced and higher BC projectiles (track the impact Berger has had on the competition) and better powder (increased energy, temp stability). Now too we have the scopes and actions produced to reduce variables and the gunsmithing knowledge to limit faults in barrel fitting.
Also, at the end of the 90s, 1000 yards was a long way. It still is but more and more people can shoot it. The Imperial Mile is the next mainstream benchmark to make common place but not many ranges extend beyond 1200 yards.
The current development seems to be with the 375 CT and variants. I like the 375 Lethal Magnum http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...oad-dev-375-caliber-400-grainers-at-3290-fps/ but the powder column may be too long for consistent shot to shot ignition (this is physics interfering with dreams again). If you want to see state of the art for ultra long range this is it - taking Short Range Benchrest skills, knowledge and techniques and running it out to the far beyond.
Now if you are looking a the percentage of the global shooting population who are interested, have the skills, time and money to invest, and then have a range to shoot on to hone these skills. Maybe 100 - globally?
A timely Blog Post ===> http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ra-extreme-long-range-one-mile-match/#respond
When you talk 5,000 yards the equipment becomes impractical and EXPENSIVE! Take the 14.9 for example used for a 4700 yd shot.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/0...700-yard-shot/
Wildcat 375 off a 50 bmg case
https://youtu.be/wdzqElkaN_o
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2016/0...700-yard-shot/
Wildcat 375 off a 50 bmg case
https://youtu.be/wdzqElkaN_o
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That 14.9 cartridge is almost exactly what i was thinking of. It says it falls past transonic at about 5000 yards! It seems to me their shooting trip was more of a test run than to break records. I bet with some work that gun and cartridge could hit the 5000 yard mark and do it sub MOA. And of course they are probably $20,000+ into their adventure. But if more people caught the ELR bug then I can definitely see huge guns and calibers making a presence in the next 10 years. And as that happens prices will fall. If the NFA ever gets repealed and we can have larger calibers than .50s brass for things like 20mm will become far more common. They said that big Anzio kicks like a 12 gauge. So if you drop 50lbs from it I wonder if it will still be shoulderable. Then make a gun that breaks down into 2 25lbs pieces and it may just become more practical. I wonder what that thing would do to an engine block...
Now for the .375 Lethal Magnum 'wow is that name tacticool'. I remember when .408 CT was the big thing, why are people choosing .375 CT to shoot and modify? Isn't .408 a better round?
Drop 50 pounds from it and prepare to feel the mule's wrath.
408CT was constrained with a lower BC projectile going slower than the 375CT case.
I was able to get 3300 fps with Lehigh 330's out of my 375CT which didn't do well past a mile because of the 11.5 twist rate - I think. Either that or the drag bands.
Hooker 350's were at 3150 fps and sailed so well it was amazing. Friend and I had a bunch of hits on a calm morning in less than 2 feet at 2500Y.
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JMAR,
"Surely there are some experimental WW2 rounds or something that went miles without going transonic?",
Supersonic at two miles from a shoulder fired rifle is a TALL order regardless of case capacity, bullet design and altitude fired. Gerlich experimented with squeeze bores, however the precision was not very good although the concept proved high velocity could be gained through tapered bores and skirted projectiles.
EJ
"Surely there are some experimental WW2 rounds or something that went miles without going transonic?",
Supersonic at two miles from a shoulder fired rifle is a TALL order regardless of case capacity, bullet design and altitude fired. Gerlich experimented with squeeze bores, however the precision was not very good although the concept proved high velocity could be gained through tapered bores and skirted projectiles.
EJ
Laser.
Something that is often forgotten when looking at making these large wildcat cases and trying to push heavy projectiles at sufficient velocities is the lack of availability of consistent canister grade powders with slow enough burning rates. Back in the early 90's those of us in the FCSA 50 cal competitions were hamstrung by the lack of suitable powder. When VV imported their 24N41 and 20N29 it was a complete game changer. Average groups during matches shrunk by close to 65%. Once we had the suitable powders, and we could experiment with different monolithic bullets, there was a drastic improvement. Prior to VV getting us powder, all we had was mil-surplus powder, which was decidedly NOT match quality. I toyed with the idea of making a 20mm/.50 cal wildcat, but once again lack of suitable powder to make it suitable for match competition is not there. And there is logic behind using heavier projectiles at extended distances. BC is only one factor, even though it does take into consideration sectional density. The overall Mass of the bullet is also an important factor. If only we were permitted to us tungsten cores! LOL!
That rail artillery the Chermans had in WW2 takes the cake : barrel
was fucked after 50 shots , successive rounds needed larger OD to
cope with barrel wear . Shoulder fired : 375 for accuracy , 50 for
smackdown factor , Win Mag for best practical balance of ability
to carry ammo and performance .
was fucked after 50 shots , successive rounds needed larger OD to
cope with barrel wear . Shoulder fired : 375 for accuracy , 50 for
smackdown factor , Win Mag for best practical balance of ability
to carry ammo and performance .
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First the recoil would not be friendly and conducive to ignoring it. Second, you could not find Optics to go much further. There are a few shooting at 5K now for research. They are very few but you can't say that people have given up on the EXTREME furthering of capability. For a sniping weapon, it it takes two people to carry it around, it loses that STEALTH thing,
The extreme spread is something that I've tried to explain to even those with a good understanding of long range shooting. They know how important it is but don't realize on the 4k plus shots being attempted are pretty damn hard if not impossible to make because it takes just a few fps to make the difference like you said. Not to mention 1 or 2 mph of wind speed change, it's just not a realistic goal with a lot of the setups people are using.
The same phenomenon concerning ES can be seen by shooting a 22 rimfire at ELR distances for a 22, even with expensive ammo. Nevermind the ES, the slight wind blowing your bullet clean off the target is just as annoying. Then it occurs in your mind, why am I doing this, it's darn 22, lol. Fun to try, but...
Take it a step farther and pick any cartridge, it will have reasonable limits as to how far away it'l provide a decent hit ratio.
The same thing with a giant ULR rifle and cartridge at those ultra long distances. It get's to the point of being silly. A large amount of disposable income involved makes for great experimentation and some success but the purpose is getting fuzzy other than saying you hit a large target at 5000Y after a large volley of rounds.
Of note though is, that the giant ULR rifle and cartridge, at distances that would be hard for hitting steel with, for example say a 300WM, is substantially easier to hit with for the giant, the 300WM has done petered out. As long as consistently low ES and good accuracy exist you'll have a better chance hitting with a giant higher BC bullet that blows less in the wind. That's what I discovered with my 375CT, it had about half the wind drift as my 30 cal and extended reliable hits another 500 or so yards on the same sized steel, that is if the 375 didn't "hangfire"". I never took it past 2500Y, but on the other hand, I saw how much harder it was to hit the same steel at 2500Y vs 2000Y, so 3000Y would double or triple the difficulty and it had better be calm out.
Hello,
OP let us not leave out the Mach V from the late great Klaus, the 9x85MEN or the 9x95MEN cartridges.
I am currently in middle of reviving the Mach V cartridge because there have been great advancements in coatings/metal finishes that can improve the barrel life from the original Mach V day. There have also been leaps in projectile design that helps with barrel wear, etc.
I attempted to revive the 9x85 and 9x95 MEN cartridges but the factory would not sell or license the cartridge designs to me to use......ANYONE here have one of those cartridge cases by chance???
Sincerely,
THEIS
OP let us not leave out the Mach V from the late great Klaus, the 9x85MEN or the 9x95MEN cartridges.
I am currently in middle of reviving the Mach V cartridge because there have been great advancements in coatings/metal finishes that can improve the barrel life from the original Mach V day. There have also been leaps in projectile design that helps with barrel wear, etc.
I attempted to revive the 9x85 and 9x95 MEN cartridges but the factory would not sell or license the cartridge designs to me to use......ANYONE here have one of those cartridge cases by chance???
Sincerely,
THEIS
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