Rifle Scopes Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

#51
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

2. No I didn't use it "quite a bit". Don't see why it would matter, especially to you - or be worth discussing here.</div></div>

Well, since you asked, let's take a look at your "recommendation:"

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">+1 on Lowlight's recommendation: Vortex Razor HD. Great scope, nice packaging, great customer service (if you need it). I don't know of a better option within the given price range (or even a little above - as I think Razor HD may give USO SN3 a run for the money). (I don't have the scope at hand - but I think BobinNC is incorrect and Razor HD has 10 MIL turrets.)
</div></div>

Here you suggested that someone should buy a scope based on it being a "great scope" with "nice packaging." The fact that you think the packaging is noteworthy is somewhat suspect to begin with but then you say that it gives a SN3 a run for it's money. This implies that you are quite familiar with the performance characteristics of both. Yet clearly you haven't even used the scope enough to take note of the number of Mrad/rev it has. It is somewhat disingenuous to recommend that someone should buy something when you apparently you have no basis for your recommendation or comparison at all.

Your post would have contributed more to the thread had it simply consisted of "Lalalalalalalalalalala...." because at least then it wouldn't have contained OVERTLY incorrect information.
 
#52
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

OK Ratbert, I <span style="text-decoration: underline">didn't</span> use it much - just enough to <span style="text-decoration: underline">try it</span> and <span style="text-decoration: underline">confirm to myself</span> the very positive opinion that more knowledgeable and experienced people shared in their reviews posted here (most detailed by Lowlight, and by AJBello). I <span style="text-decoration: underline">have</span> used Vortex customer service (that elevation issue - resolved quickly and to my full satisfaction) - so everything I stated I was reasonably certain of; and what I was <span style="text-decoration: underline">not sure</span> of - I marked as such. I bought it, I'm happy about it, I'm recommending it to others based on what I tried in one range session <span style="text-decoration: underline">and what others did</span> in a lot longer and tougher test. (<span style="font-style: italic">It's my problem and my business why I couldn't shoot more and gain more experience with this scope, including trying longer range</span>.)

My <span style="text-decoration: underline">limited</span> test of this scope confirmed to me the good words that better shooters than me put for it. That experience I shared. Besides the rotation property that I didn't care for and didn't verify (having only 100 yards of field range) and which you pounced on - with a bit more vitriol that would be appropriate for somebody who says others are vitriolic towards himself - what else that I said about this scope was incorrect or misleading? Scope not really nice? Poorly compares to others in that price group (or to others in a higher price group)? Ability to withstand an explosion (which I didn't check myself either) not impressive enough? Packaging not good (other scopes in this quality and price ballpark pack more useful goodies with it)? Nobody among the "old-timers" here compared it to Premier and USO (not necessarily claiming it's better, but claiming they're comparable)?

Oh, and I admit that I've never even touched either USO or S&B - and all I know about those is from books, Web and people like Zak. But perhaps you did - and can compare Razor HD 5-20x50 with say USO SN3 5-25x58 T-PAL (or SN3 3.8-22x44) comparably configured? Or care to mention any advantage or shortcoming of the Razor HD (rather than NXS) scope that Lowlight and others missed?
 
#53
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Mouse, read the title of the thread and then ask yourself how a scope that's been in the field as a production model for such a short time can fit the bill.....

The Razor looks promising, and time will tell how they hold up.
 
#55
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK Ratbert, ...</div></div>

Man, hotlinks and everything. That must have taken a while to type. Haven't used a Razor yet, so I can't compare it to the SN-3.



Which is why I didn't.


You need to relax, at this rate you're gonna blow a gasket before you qualify to list things for sale.
 
#57
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or he'll start making big blue emphasis points! </div></div>

God i sure hope not, one person that does that is more than enough for me
whistle.gif
 
#58
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mouse, read the title of the thread and then ask yourself how a scope that's been in the field as a production model for such a short time can fit the bill.....
</div></div>

Sobr, you're making a good point. But you're not the only one asking that - and I'm not the first one (nor the most experienced one either) answering it here. The answer others gave was that while <span style="text-decoration: underline">this</span> scope is indeed brand new - it contains nothing radically different from <span style="text-decoration: underline">other scopes</span> that <span style="text-decoration: underline">this manufacturer</span> has been selling for quite a while and that have established a good track record.

Not a proof - but good enough conjecture. That compounded by the tests and reviews of the actual Razor HD scopes seems conclusive <span style="text-decoration: underline">enough</span>.

After all, it is not that scopes that cost twice as much never break - they're just <span style="text-decoration: underline">aren't likely</span> to break, and if they do - the customer is <span style="text-decoration: underline">very likely</span> to be taken care of.

It looks like we got that all with Vortex Razor HD - it seems to be built on a good manufacturer experience, not likely to break, and the vendor stands behind this product (as I had a chance to find out).

Oh, and I've put my money where my mouth is - and bought Razor HD (mine is within the first 150 units made AFAIK).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Razor looks promising, and time will tell how they hold up.</div></div>

That it will, for sure. But in the meanwhile...?

As the OP is deciding now - it seems that based on the existing facts we can <span style="text-decoration: underline">predict</span> good reliability for Razor HD. If we would limit the selection to only those scopes that themselves were fully validated by time - the OP may spend more and miss on the properties important for him.

Would you agree with my line of reasoning?
 
#59
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK Ratbert, ...</div></div>
You need to relax, </div></div>

No argument here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at this rate you're gonna blow a gasket before you qualify to list things for sale.</div></div>

Well, let's hope the gasket holds.
wink.gif

 
#61
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1000yard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Warranty?service? if it breaks can it be fixed and when? </div></div>

In my case I sent the scope to the manufacturer on a pre-paid FedEx label (Vortex sent me one), and received it back within about 9-10 days total.

They offered to just send me a new scope. I chose to have mine repaired instead.
 
#62
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

In my case I sent the scope to the manufacturer on a pre-paid FedEx label (Vortex sent me one), and received it back within about 9-10 days total.

They offered to just send me a new scope. I chose to have mine repaired instead. </div></div>

Oh, yours has already gone down? I missed that part.......
 
#63
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In my case I sent the scope to the manufacturer on a pre-paid FedEx label (Vortex sent me one), and received it back within about 9-10 days total.

They offered to just send me a new scope. I chose to have mine repaired instead. </div></div>

Oh, yours has already gone down? I missed that part....</div></div>

You missed it because actually it didn't - at least I don't know if it did or not. But reading all these reviews (including the thread where you yourself posted not so long ago, so <span style="text-decoration: underline">you</span> should know what this is about) that mentioned a turret problem (a few scopes missed their dose of Loctite during assembly) - I wanted to make sure my scope is problem-free <span style="text-decoration: underline">before</span> I go through the mounting and the range.

So I contacted Vortex - not knowing yet whether my scope is affected or not. They said they weren't sure but based on the serial number it looks like my scope is probably among the few that may need intervention. The rest is known history: regardless of my scope condition they offered to just send me a new one, I instead asked to repair mine (again regardless).
 
#64
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Ah, the dollop of loctite conundrum (a reference would have been good for me, but I'm glad you hotlinked it for posterity).
That makes sense.

Did they change the "7" to a "9" while they had it as well?
 
#66
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Linking us back to information and threads we created really shouldn't count as "providing your own recommendation." Aren't there any threads over on arfcom you could link us to?
 
#67
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ah, the dollop of loctite conundrum (a reference would have been good for me, but I'm glad you hotlinked it for posterity).
That makes sense.</div></div>

grin.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did they change the "7" to a "9" while they had it as well?</div></div>

Yep.
 
#68
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Linking us back to information and threads we created really shouldn't count as "providing your own recommendation."</div></div>

"We"? You had nothing to do with the thread I referred to.

You did make one post in the original Lowlight review thread, complaining how Razor's unforgiving eye relief (described by Lowlight) breaks your hope of improvement over Premier Heritage.

"My own recommendation" is based on "my own" (albeit very limited) use of the scope. It so happened that what little I did - fully agreed with what Lowlight said. On the other hand - feel free to deny the "recommendation royalty".
grin.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aren't there any threads over on arfcom you could link us to?</div></div>
Why would I know? You visit that site - so feel free to provide the relevant links, and we'll see.
 
#69
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badbowtie03</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about a us optics sn3 vs the razor hd? Yall think the usoptics is better? </div></div>

As I said before, I haven't touched any of the USO scopes. However:
<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]when I was considering a new scope and oscillated between USO SN3 and Premier Heritage, a person whose opinion I hold in high esteem recommended Heritage over USO as a better deal;[*]from the post by Ratbert in the original Razor HD review thread one can conclude that in Ratbert's opinion the main shortcoming of Razor preventing it from being an improvement over Heritage is Razor's unforgiving eye relief, that is as bad (or worse? I wouldn't know) as that of Heritage. <span style="font-style: italic">Now the answer that Ratbert posted in this thread is quite different - but he's the only one who can explain if he cares to.</span>[/list]
Based on the above it seems that others here would consider these scopes comparable. As for myself - after all those deliberations and consultations with my betters I chose Razor, expecting to get performance comparable to that of USO and Premier for a lower cost.
 
#70
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Trying to do a "this vs that, which one is better" comparison is pointless. They're all good scopes. At least I assume the Razor is good, haven't tried one yet. But I know from personal ownership that the USO, Heritage, and Nightforce are all excellent products, and also that the IOR is a good product but a step below the others. Also friends have been kind enough to allow me to examine their S&B and Hensoldts and they are also very nice scopes. But you didn't need me to tell you any of that if you've paid attention at all to previous discussions. It really comes down to which features and specifications appeal to your shooting discipline and preferences. The USO has far and away the most flexibility (being a custom built scope instead of just part of a product line) so it is obviously going to have the edge when it comes to appealing to the widest audience. However within that audience very few of the scopes will be exactly alike so take any given scope and you personally may or may not like the way it is setup.

The Razor is appealing as it is the cheapest of the high-end FFPs, though.

Regarding the eye-relief, I had hoped that the Razor would be forgiving of head position at medium to high magnifications (no scope shadowing) and provide consistent eye-relief throughout the magnification range. If so then it would be an option with 30% more magnification and $1k cheaper than the 3-15 Heritage. Others have indicated that this might be it's weak spot, though, so who knows. The Heritage has consistent eye relief throughout the magnification band but is not nearly as forgiving of head position as my buddy's Hensoldt.
 
#71
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Also, you appear to be specifically attempting to bait me into some sort of confrontation. I really am not sure what sort of satisfaction you are hoping to obtain with this.
 
#72
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trying to do a "this vs that, which one is better" comparison is pointless. They're all good scopes.</div></div>
I guess what people (including myself) are trying to ascertain is what "class" a given scope falls into, and whether there are any that are exceptionally good for the price, or much worse than others in the same class. So for example when I try to compare Razor to Heritage, I'm asking myself "is Heritage really $500+ better?" it may be an imprecise question that doesn't allow a precise answer - but I'm sure you understand what I mean here.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At least I assume the Razor is good, haven't tried one yet. But I know from personal ownership that the USO, Heritage, and Nightforce are all excellent products, and also that the IOR is a good product but a step below the others.</div></div>

As I said, it would nice to ascertain that Razor HD is in the same class as USO, Heritage and NF. <span style="font-style: italic">Folks in this thread (Vortex or Premier for .50BMG) thought that it is.</span> Also, would you place S&B PMII in the same class?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also friends have been kind enough to allow me to examine their S&B and Hensoldts and they are also very nice scopes.</div></div>

sick.gif
grin.gif
<span style="font-style: italic">I'm not likely to touch a Hensoldt any time soon.</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The USO has far and away the most flexibility (being a custom built scope instead of just part of a product line) so it is obviously going to have the edge when it comes to appealing to the widest audience. However within that audience very few of the scopes will be exactly alike so take any given scope and you personally may or may not like the way it is setup.</div></div>

As USO is quite an expensive scope - one question would be: with it do you pay mostly for the superior quality, or for the ability to pick the options a-la carte? Because for example my tastes and needs are not so exquisite that I can't pick a "pre-packaged" deal like Heritage or Razor...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Razor is appealing as it is the cheapest of the high-end FFPs, though.</div></div>
Yes... So would you say that it's in the same class as USO, Heritage and NF? Quality-wise and capability-wise?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Regarding the eye-relief, I had hoped that the Razor would be forgiving of head position at medium to high magnifications (no scope shadowing) and provide consistent eye-relief throughout the magnification range. If so then it would be an option with 30% more magnification and $1k cheaper than the 3-15 Heritage. Others have indicated that this might be it's weak spot, though, so who knows. The Heritage has consistent eye relief throughout the magnification band but is not nearly as forgiving of head position as my buddy's Hensoldt.</div></div>
I can't compare Razor to either Heritage or Hensoldt. I can confirm that it's eye relief is unforgiving regarding the head position - but quite long otherwise. Would be interesting to hear from those who tried both whether it's <span style="text-decoration: underline">more</span> unforgiving - for if it isn't you may still have that $1K cheaper option...
 
#74
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

The few Razors I've looked through had less than perfect illumination, the windage hold points are so small and faint that they are almost an excercise in futility, and the glass didn't "pop" for me like a good USO, PR or S&B do.

That being said, if they prove to be highly reliable and repeatable mechanically they will definately be worth the money in their niche. In my opinion, reliability and repeatability are the main factors in a rifle scope's value, then the features I want (design layout and forgiveness in eye placement, stable relief) come into play.

I haven't put much time behind a Razor to give an opinion on the eye placement. This doesn't bother folks that want to be forced into a proper cheekweld, but the folks that say that about eye placement must have never tried a port down 90* prone position while on the clock before........
 
#75
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

Cars in the $50k-$90k price range vary wildly in price but they are all nice, expensive cars. You don't compare them by asking "so is the $80k Porsche worth the extra $10k over the $70k Mercedes?" I mean, 10k is a lot of scratch, that should be a pretty cut and dried question shouldn't it? But it isn't. It's an asinine question. This isn't the grocery store where you're buying baked beans and want to know if Busch's name brand is worth the extra 2c/oz over Archer Farms store brand.

Buy the one you want. It will probably make you happy. The more you try to defend it against other people on the internet trying to convince themselves that they have purchased The One True Scope, the less happy you will be.

 
#76
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cars in the $50k-$90k price range vary wildly in price but they are all nice, expensive cars. You don't compare them by asking "so is the $80k Porsche worth the extra $10k...." should be a pretty cut and dried question shouldn't it? But it isn't.</div></div>
You're probably right here...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Buy the one you want.</div></div>
Already did!
wink.gif


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It will probably make you happy.</div></div>
Well, it's a better scope than anything <span style="text-decoration: underline">I tried</span> so far.
grin.gif


A person coming back from Hensoldt may have a totally different experience.
wink.gif



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The more you try to defend it against other people on the internet trying to convince themselves that they have purchased The One True Scope, the less happy you will be.</div></div>
eek.gif
grin.gif


Now if I could only assemble the funds for that DT SRS rifle...
wink.gif
 
#77
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now if I could only assemble the funds for that DT SRS rifle...
wink.gif
</div></div>

They're worth every penny.
 
#78
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durabi

Yes, what a beautifully designed rifle! (<span style="font-style: italic">Oops! I'm dragging the whole thread off-topic!</span>
grin.gif
)
 
#79
Re: Best Scope? FFP Mil/Mil - Top Clarity & Durability

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Also, you appear to be specifically attempting to bait me into some sort of confrontation.</div></div>

maybe i just caught the tail end of that convo, but to me it seemed just the opposite...

im still reading up on ffp mil/mil scopes. trying to decide between the viper pst 4-16x50 and the IOR 2.5-10x42. pretty large price difference for my pocket book, i will probably end up going with the viper once they come out again and are tried and true. i know the glass on the IOR is supposed to be better, but the viper has features the IOR is missing and you cant beat vortexs customer service. will a 2.5-10x scope get me out to 1k yards if i need it to?
 
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