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Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Hi Noel,

Okay, I AM intrigued by your idea. I'm looking forward to seeing one. If you'd like, I'd like to try one of the units on a 408 rifle, would be a good direct comparison, what do you think?

Trigger
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Trig,

I understand that you have a wealth of experience. The first two prototypes are destined for a couple of Hide members that I am indebted to for extensive help provided in testing the ZA series projectile.

They both happen to have your bipod, <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> the two variations of the RND bipod. I am well covered, but thanks for your offer.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Trigg, Something is ( odoriferous ), and getting deep, I'll go along with the somethings weird line of thought. Later
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

takeaim1st,

I have the sense thay you chose your moniker, at least in part, as an aid in overcoming poor habits. You seem to be demonstrating them here.

I do not hide behind a pseudonynm, and the product of my conjecture will be held out for all to examine in the open. You might be so bold as to try the same.

Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel, Don't be concerned about how,when,where,or why I chose my Handle. It is apparent,considering the content of your posts, that you have a wealth of knowledge,why don't you channel that blessing in a more positive and productive direction.If you truly do command the knowledge that you continue to present,show all here a practical application of it. I appreciate good work,and support it by purchasing products that will provide needed service. What say Ye now?
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

takeaim1st,

You are speaking my language now. This project is going to happen, soon, and you will be among the first to see it if you monitor this thread.

I would be pleased to also have you as a consumer.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Interesting start..looking forward to more.

With the discussion on past designs, current trends, materials, and some minor specification requests, may I ask "what is the final application for the bipod you are considering designing?" In other words, are you driving this to a range, dragging it along in the field, having it delivered in a container, etc. etc. etc?

 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

RT,

Your question is perfectly reasonable to ask at this stage, and the flow of the dialogue demonstrates the importance of precisely that line of inquiry... because it is the Hide participants who have driven the design criteria debate, not me. This is as it should be.

If you look at the thread title, my initial assumption was only 50% accurate. The "bi"-axial function has been minimized, if not entirely eliminated, as a focal point of interest. It is the mono-axial suspension bipod to which the discussion continually returns. By purest fortune, it is also the least costly to manufacture.

I will answer your question this way;

- We are looking at a single basic design which changes only for affordability/portability (material selection), and weight bearing capacity (size).

- Stability/repeatability is paramount.

- The bipod mount should be universally adaptable.

- It must function easily/reliably in adverse conditions.

I have preliminary drawings completed, and have a fairly good idea of the actual performance specifications (as drawn). Soon I will begin a set of drawings that are a little more reader-friendly. When they are completed, I will post them here.

If I am off in current assumptions, please feel free to interject comments.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

I appreciate your response, over 1,000 yards and that is serious work.

The reason I asked is that over the last 35 years or so, I have watched with some considerable interest as the lowly bipod made its way through yet another series of metamorphoses . We had come a long way, passing some important milestones, from the M21’s step the spike into the ground aluminum and steel mono rests, the FNLAR’s attempt to fold it all away, to the WA2000’s then groundbreaking suspension. We somehow have ended up with this, the latest period, with its current crop of spring loaded, button rich bipods hanging off various makes and models that for the most part look like 1950 TV antenna’s. IMO, a low point in design and more importantly integration.

I was please to see Trigger’s work on the EDM WIndrunner platform (there is, IMO, no Cheytac platform, there is a cartridge and work on the original EDM bipod stud.) Trigger’s work was important as the real issue at hand is not yet another bipod “add-on” but a more profound integration into the rifle system so that it is there when needed, solid in all regards and lastly, and most overlooked, able to get out of the way when not.
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In short, from this….
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7.jpg

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To this…..
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6.jpg

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To Triggers fine solution seen earlier and elsewhere in this section. Yes, I understand the issues with the longer stud, or Triggers longer tube with handle, or as seen here custom barrel and shorter tube, or the magic of instant left hand receivers via photoshop.

2.jpg


The point is made and Trigger’s understanding of the problem and execution of an elegant solution sets a good solid standard that has already led him to this….

9.jpg


Note: Free floating rube to bipod integration was first attempted in 1896 and well understood and integrated into military arms by 1932. Lets not go there now.

I have always felt the solution IS integrating the bipod design into the receiver engineering. And I have also always felt that not doing just that requires that one dance around that mishap with solutions that do the best they can.

Currently it gets as simplistic as universal models that do what is required and make engineers cringe.
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If you give up completely..
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5.jpg

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Or..
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lkj.jpg

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And quickly runs up to the newest crop of what benchrest shooters now see…
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1.jpg

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With few exception, the heavy benchrest rifle crews have seen it all. You show me a rail mounted, stud mounted, adhered, channel set screwed design and its all a big yawn.

Universal adaptability is where I start getting worried.

Need a rock solid rest, fully adjustable and made of space age materials? As any serious benchrest shooter will tell you, any skilled retired machinist can do that, it takes real skill to integrate it into the platform, otherwise it UHF time.

Show me a rifle company producing a 1,000 yard + capable rifle that has thought through the bipod as well as the trigger and I start to get interested.

All meant in the best of spirit.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

RT,

A fully integrated system solution <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> clearly the <span style="font-style: italic">best</span> solution; however, the cost burden of supplying a complementary rifle with every bipod purchase is problematic.
wink.gif


I really enjoyed your over-view, and agree that "new" solutions to old problems have a historical tendency to re-cycle. As you I choke, somewhat, at accomodating flawed rifle designs with provisions for adaptation. Look for my "integrated" solution in the 3K project.

Having conceeded that point, an <span style="font-style: italic">optimal</span> compromise can be made for existing platforms. The exercise can also be interesting from a design standpoint, but this project is destined to disappoint the purist. On the up-side, it is the "purist" mindset that will alter the future "existing platform". The problem is ultimately self-correcting.

Your cautions are well taken.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel,

I really forward to seeing your design. You are right about the function of the rachet system.

RT51,
the mantfrotto tripod has a different application - used when shooting from inside a minibus - try waiting for a few hours to get one shot. The idea is to reduce muscle tension by having the trpod take all the rifle weight (a relaxed shooter is a good shooter). It has a few other applications such as high angle shots. It fails on quickness of follow up shots which is why it needs a re-design with a suspension (return to battery) head system.

As a general note a bipod which is stable like the Rempel bipod is a joy to use - relaxed and without muscle fatigue. On the other hand I am almost fighting the AI bipod to keep it stable.


David.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

You are of course correct.

The observation I was making was one of full integration from conception rather than needing a 3'x 3' bolt on spread to make it all work. Engineering for BOTH the rear monopod and front support system (may not be a bipod) could very well resolve the requirement. I too remain wholly disatisfied with all things bipod.

Manfrotto redux...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYzIhlGrR1w

Need a lift?

66.jpg


What Manfrottos dream of at night..

BruceRifleTripod.jpg




 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

RT,

Thanks for the entertaining post, I needed something to lighten up my day. The squirrel on the tripod leg was a perfect finishing touch.
grin.gif


Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

As an aside; From my perspective, the McCree stock comes very close to making possible the "integrated" system which you are looking for.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel,

One thing to consider with symetrical deployment of the legs would be that you would have to stick with something on the order of the rotating tube previously done by Triggerfifty. I think it is the best mounting geometry solution but let's face it, some guys are going to have to settle for less than perfect and a great tripod mounted to a sling swivel stud represents the vast majority of the market.


If you are going to go down the road of creating the next greatest thing since sliced bread you might want to consider some alternative mounting configurations to expand your market. If you have a more conventional mounting system, an asymetrical leg extension can be very desirable or even required.

If you are going to make a better mousetrap you might want to expand the range of users and Trigger's tube system is not all that common. Just a suggestion for maximum return on what is likely to be a substantial investment of time and money.

I am sure there are a lot of guys who just can't make the tube mount work logistically or financially and would still love to have the zircon encrusted, ion powered bipod you are talking about designing.

Just a thought. let me know when you have a prototype to look at, I am one of those guys with a big gun looking for a bipod solution. Good luck.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Mojave,

The design differences focus on remediation of five primary CheyTac bipod deficiencies;

- Relocation of the suspension axis to a true "above-bore" location for self-alignment. The Current design achieves this only through slight forestock-tube <span style="font-style: italic">deflection </span> which is, in itself, a design weakness.

- Reduction of suspension/rotation bearing friction. The forestock tube diameter is much too large, as a bearing surface, to expect effortless vertical self-alignment. A .375" diameter <span style="font-style: italic">"above-barrel" </span>, cantilever pin is more than adequate. It is also much less likely to accumulate abrasive contaminates, or to be affected by them, during exposure.

- Maintain, or increase, overall rigidity at a lower weight.

- Improve adjustment ergonomics, and simplify function.

- Add a recoil "tracking" bias with contour-following "ski" feet rather than simple disc-feet.

** I will ponder the "zircon encrustation" feature.
grin.gif


Regarding adaptability, if a rail can be placed in the desired position (within 1" above the barrel, and as far forward as possible), then this bipod <span style="font-style: italic">will </span> mount. I am sweeping the legs to lock slightly past ninety degrees to give a longer "wheelbase". This will compensate for, generally short, forestock lengths, and provide better weapon balance when the legs are retracted.

Minor leg-length movement will be added to the list of features... once I receive pending feed-back on a reasonable range of adjustment past the cant-angle capacity of thirty degrees in each direction.

I think you will be pleased.

Thanks,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel,

I take it you have thought through the requirement/impact of all things UNS/MUNS/DUNS?
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

RT,

Even without taking those into account, the optical requirements of an unenhanced, bare scope, dictate a bipod location which does allow for add-ons.

We did some testing to see just how much an object could protrude into the objective lens extended-diameter, before light-transmission was compromised. As it turns out, any obstruction over 30% of lens diameter noticeably degraded the lower field of view in dusk-lighting. Interestingly, this was true regardless of how far forward the obstruction was placed.

For this reason, I chose the cantilever suspension to eliminate the interference problem; hovever, a slightly extended rail will be required.

Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Update;

In order to produce drawings of a design which satisfies both desired function, and long-term cost objectives, I will be using extrusions to mill parts from. It is evident, at this point, that none of the large houses have suitable non-custom dies available.

I address that obstacle this week, and drawings will follow soon after.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Hello RT,

The cost for extrusion dies, and minimum runs, came back last Tuesday.

I was somewhat surprised by the minimum run requirement, and still have some issues to work out with the extrusion house, but I believe an aluminum bipod based on this design is commercially viable in mass production. The dozen or so, non-extrusion based, prototypes will be milled from solid stock, and cost three to four times more than the production version. I am entertaining use of a metal matrix composite material which is both stronger, and lighter, than titanium to sweeten the appeal of the prototype, which will be a pricey accessory even by anal-retentive standards.

The drawing should appear next week for public review, and criticism.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

That was then....this is now...

Looking forward to seeing more.

grin.gif
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

RT,

I was looking all the way to the bottom of the board for this thread, and saw you had, once more, bumped it to the top.

Some unexpected, but welcome, developments consumed the first part of this week. As a consequence, I have spent no time in completing the drawings, and needed to post regarding another delay.

This is a priority. It just lacked the urgency of the surprise. Be patient, I will not let you down.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Here they are:

kyozs.jpg


21l9aix.jpg


14dksc1.jpg


1191jid.jpg


More sub component drawings will be added within the next few days. This design arrangement is similar to Anzio Ironworks cantilever, over-barrel, Barrett M82 bipod.
http://www.anzioironworks.com/BARRETT-M82-UPGRADES.htm

The ZA bipod will weigh just under two pounds in aluminum, and even less when fabricated from composite metal matrix/ceramic extrusions. The latter is as rigid as magnesium, and has a higher tensile strength than steel. The recoil torque attenuation clutch assembly will be sealed in silicone-oil for use in all conditions, including saltwater. It utilizes an eight slot bronze, dual taper, collet. The forward adjustment dial is stop-indexed to lock the entire bipod when in the upright position.

Cam-locks for the leg pivots, and feet extensions, will be Shimano hub-lock levers, or some other off-the-shelf production part if at all possible. The ski feet will be manufactured in load bearing increments of two pounds, such that the "toe" will maintain a minimum "heel" preload at 0.5 pounds when the weapon is at rest, based on rifle weight up to 40 pounds (with minor change in strut dimensions). Either teflon, or rubber "socks" slide over the skis for desired friction properties.

There is 4" of leg adjustment, with a height range of 9.5"-5.5" clearance between the bottom of the forestock, and the ground. Foot spread is between 18"-15".

 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel,

That sure looks like good.
Will the flexibility not make the front of the rifle unstable? Or will the weight of the rifle sort that bounciness out?

Cheers,

Master Diver
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

MD,

There are two possible sources of "bouncyness", and rifle weight factors into the problem.

First, the struts need to be rigid enough to provide a solid platform even with the raked angle. This is addressed by both material, and cross-section dimensions. In lighter rifles, up to 12 pounds, I think an aluminum/spring steel construction will be adequate. A metal matrix ceramic, in combination with a larger cross-section, will obviously add capacity. Only testing will tell what the cut-off points are, and Scott Nye will be providing that feed-back.

Second, The pre-loaded spring feet would definitely be detrimental to stability if they are not matched to rifle mass. I expect them to allow greater repeatability of firing conditions provided recoil-tracking is smoothed out, and this is the sole purpose of the experiment. If no benefit is realized, then it will be reflected in a less expensive finished product... as that feature is fairly costly.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel,
Good to see you posted them up.
C.K
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Noel,

Thanks for elaborating on the flexible feet.
Only extensive testing will show if the flexible feet will reduce stress on the top mount.

Cheers,

Master Diver
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

MD,

Thanks for asking the question. It actually prompted an insight as I was revisualizing the functional mechanics.

Only <span style="font-style: italic">one</span> of the feet would need to have significant spring preload in the ski toe. On a rifle with a right-hand twist, the left hand ski is the one that would benefit from a "floating" suspension capability. A tendency to <span style="font-style: italic">lift</span> would be counter productive in the right ski. At most, all we would want on the right, is enough spring travel to maintain low pressure physical contact with the ground as the recoil torque-attenuation clutch locked the bipod head.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Dang, I missed the Solidworks renders before - looks intriguing.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Can you explain the "clutch" function?
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Dogtown,

I have reworked the clutch, since these drawings were posted, to provide nearly three times the frictional surface area.

The sprung "ski" foot concept will have to be proven also. I will rely on lrs50bmg to give a field critique. Ideally, everything will tuck, and lock, nicely along the rear barrel profile, in a nicely weighted balance, when stowed. The self-retracting feet should be very low profile in the up position. I also found some nice cam levers, commercially available, which will save some fabricating time.

Initially, suspension-pin mounting brackets will be made available in the AI, and McCree, chassis systems. Imput on relative potential demand for other stock mounting types would be appreciated.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Bad Bot,

The clutch is to mitigate the distraction of axial-torque when the rifle is in recoil. The "suspension-pin" acts to expand a conical bronze bushing as recoil "pulls" it through the clutch housing.

It also doubles as a manual lock-up when the legs are in the up position.

In re-reading Master Diver's question on the spring feet; it occurred to me that I might not have been clear, in the drawing notation, that the "1/2 lb heel preload" means that the heel actually rests flat on the ground under the weight of the rifle. the "spring" merely biases weight distribution on the ski "toe". The platform is quite solid.
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Noel Carlson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bad Bot,

The clutch is to mitigate the distraction of axial-torque when the rifle is in recoil. The "suspension-pin" acts to expand a conical bronze bushing as recoil "pulls" it through the clutch housing.

It also doubles as a manual lock-up when the legs are in the up position.

In re-reading Master Diver's question on the spring feet; it occurred to me that I might not have been clear, in the drawing notation, that the "1/2 lb heel preload" means that the heel actually rests flat on the ground under the weight of the rifle. the "spring" merely biases weight distribution on the ski "toe". The platform is quite solid. </div></div>

Thanks for elaborating once more on the ski toe, it all makes a bit more sence to me.

Cheers,

Master Diver
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Darrell,

I will be at the show, but I will not have the bipod... sorry.

If I had been thinking ahead I could have brought one. I am with family in Utah, and will leave directly from here to Las Vegas.

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Hey, see you there bud! Hope we find time to chat! :)

-Anthony
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Will do. Are you at the GSC booth?

Best,
Noel
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

Um no. Are they supposed to have a booth this year? I didn't think so, but I'll be sure to find out. You?
 
Re: Bi-Axial "suspension" Bipod Design

I have some meetings, but no booth.

If you like, PM a cell number. We can touch bases at some point.

Best,
Noel