Big Difference Between these M1A's?

[NoahbodyImportant]

What is the difference between the Springfield M1A National Match and Super Match?

I would like to compete in Across the Course, 600 and 1000 yard matches.

Maybe Im thinking too much on this. Maybe I should go with AR10 instead?

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

The M1A Super Match has a rear lugged receiver (the National Match only has front lugs), a heavier barrel and oversized op rod guide

 

[NoahbodyImportant]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Thank You for the quick reply. That is what I just read.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I've owned both m14's and AR's.......if you're shooting for money, on a range(sterile environment) go Ar10. If you are in the combat zone shooting for your life,go with the m14.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoahbodyImportant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the difference between the Springfield M1A National Match and Super Match?

I would like to compete in Across the Course, 600 and 1000 yard matches.

Maybe Im thinking too much on this. Maybe I should go with AR10 instead?</div></div>

 

[08Cayenne]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I have both, biggest difference is price. The supermatch will hold 3/4" moa all the time and 5/8" on a good day for me. NM is about double that. Both rang steel at 1000 yards easily though.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M1A Super Match has a rear lugged receiver (the National Match only has front lugs), a heavier barrel and oversized op rod guide</div></div>

That isn't necessary accurate. My Heavy Match dosn't have the rear lugs.

The main difference is the Super Match has a heavy Stock and a Heavy match barrel.

I don't know who's making them now but my Super Match has the Biship Stock and Barnet Barrel (accutally it was build by Gene Barnet).

Having said that, as much as I like M1As, (been shooting mine since 1977) if one was getting started in HP Service Rifle, even to 1000 yards I'd recommend going the AR route. ARs are beating the M1A/M14s now days.

 

[aquinas]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Nobody is winning with 14's today. The most used gun in service rifle is the AR-15 for several reasons.

The m14 and AR-10's are hard to shoot clean in offhand; they are just too heavy. Furthermore, they knock you more out of position in sitting and prone rapid due to heavier recoil than the AR-15.

The AR-10 might start winning once someone figures out how to win with it, but at this point and for the forseable future, the AR-15 dominates service rifle.

The trend in high power seems to be finding a balance between power and manageable recoil. Hence, we see a shift in match rifle away from .223 and to 6mm and 6.8mm...calibers like that.

You don't see guys shooting 30 cals or 300 win mags, even though ballistically, they are superior. A lot of it is managing recoil.

Another huge advantage of the AR-15 is cost to shoot. It's way cheaper and to get proficient with either service or match rifle, you have to shoot a lot. Practice, practice, practice.
Big calibers get expensive to shoot and take their toll on the shooter as well.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
That isn't necessary accurate. My Heavy Match dosn't have the rear lugs.

The main difference is the Super Match has a heavy Stock and a Heavy match barrel.

I don't know who's making them now but my Super Match has the Biship Stock and Barnet Barrel (accutally it was build by Gene Barnet).

Having said that, as much as I like M1As, (been shooting mine since 1977) if one was getting started in HP Service Rifle, even to 1000 yards I'd recommend going the AR route. ARs are beating the M1A/M14s now days.

</div></div>

I believe your Heavy Match is something different. Early M1A's were built using SA investment cast receivers and USGI parts.

Without knowing the specs on your rifle (feel free to share), I'd imagine that it more closely resembles a current M1A NM.

You don't see too many older M1A's. That rifle has a lot more character than any AR I've ever seen!

All Super Matches from SA have rear lugged receivers, heavy barrels, oversized oprod guides, and heavier stocks (forgot to mention that one last time).

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

If I remember right, when I went to the NG MTU, NM maintaince/building clinic, the army was gluing their guns (M14s) in the stock, the marines were using lugs.

But that was a while ago, I spoke out of turn I guess. Didn't have enough sense to realize we were suppose to referring about SA's rifles.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

You will spend $1000 more on a M14, than the Ar-10 and the M14 will be will fall short by .25 moa. And to get both rifles under 1 moa, you will spend money. with semi auto gas guns......accuracy cost. so the real question is..What is your budget and what is your mission????

 

[chansen49]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The M1A Super Match has a rear lugged receiver (the National Match only has front lugs), a heavier barrel and oversized op rod guide</div></div>

That isn't necessary accurate. My Heavy Match dosn't have the rear lugs.

The main difference is the Super Match has a heavy Stock and a Heavy match barrel.

I don't know who's making them now but my Super Match has the Biship Stock and Barnet Barrel (accutally it was build by Gene Barnet).

Having said that, as much as I like M1As, (been shooting mine since 1977) if one was getting started in HP Service Rifle, even to 1000 yards I'd recommend going the AR route. ARs are beating the M1A/M14s now days.

</div></div>

I have an 86 vintage SA super match.. No lugs, SA told me back then they didnt do the rear lugs.


Ch

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I'm not sure if your info is accurate, but i will find out....camp perry is going on right now........I will see if i can get the results. Last year the ar10 dominated. First through 8th place. then an M14 shot by Ed shank,if I'm not mistaken. The scuttle but I hear from Very,Very reliable source that the AR-15 is very inconsistent at the 1000yd line. Any who, Can't wait for the results for this year.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: himaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nobody is winning with 14's today. The most used gun in service rifle is the AR-15 for several reasons.

The m14 and AR-10's are hard to shoot clean in offhand; they are just too heavy. Furthermore, they knock you more out of position in sitting and prone rapid due to heavier recoil than the AR-15.

The AR-10 might start winning once someone figures out how to win with it, but at this point and for the forseable future, the AR-15 dominates service rifle.

The trend in high power seems to be finding a balance between power and manageable recoil. Hence, we see a shift in match rifle away from .223 and to 6mm and 6.8mm...calibers like that.

You don't see guys shooting 30 cals or 300 win mags, even though ballistically, they are superior. A lot of it is managing recoil.

Another huge advantage of the AR-15 is cost to shoot. It's way cheaper and to get proficient with either service or match rifle, you have to shoot a lot. Practice, practice, practice.
Big calibers get expensive to shoot and take their toll on the shooter as well.
</div></div>

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

The problem with AR10s is that if you deside to shoot service rifle in HP, you're eventually going to want to start working toward your Distinguished Rifle Badge and President's 100 patch.

Those programs are run by the CMP, not the NRA. The CMP does not reconize the AR10 as a service Rifle.

The Top 4 Service Rifle shooters this year in the NRA Service Rifle Matches were from the services and I really doubt they were shooting AR10.

I haven't seen the 1000 yard service rifle results yet, but I'd put my money on the AR in 223.

I nave nothing against the AR10, its a good rifle but I'm a realist.

NOR

am I bad mouthing M14/M1As, I've shot mine in competition since 1977. I love them, I got my Distinguished Badge with one, but even this old dog knows "the times, they are a changing".

Same thing with the Beretta 92 and M1911a1. I faught the Beretta tooth and nail, refused to have anything to do with them when the guard got them. Then again I was cutting off my nose to spite my pace, I got one for a job (that didn't pan out because of COPD). I've been shooting it in matches and found its a great little shooter.

If this old dog can change you youngsters can but I'm not ready to make a lamp out of my M1A just yet.

I do know for a fact that the 80 grn SMKs do shoot well at 1000 yards.

 

[slothlacrosse]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If this old dog can change you youngsters can but I'm not ready to make a lamp out of my M1A just yet.

</div></div>

i'll buy that lamp!

 

[Tx_Flyboy]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Niro69,

How would an AR-10 have to be set up to be service match legal?

Regards,

 

[BCP]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tx_Flyboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Niro69,

How would an AR-10 have to be set up to be service match legal?

Regards, </div></div>

From the rulebook:

3.1.6 Service Rifle - U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62mm M-110 series as issued by the U.S. Armed Forces, or the
same type and caliber of commercially procured rifle without bipod, having not less than a 4 1/2 pound trigger pull
with standard-type stock, pistol grip, handguard, and leather or web sling. In all courses of fire and in all positions,
the standard 20 round box magazine or a reduced magazine of the same external dimensions will be attached.
The gas system must be fully operational. External alterations to the barrel, upper and lower receivers, stock,
handguard, or pistol grip will not be allowed, except that plastic covers may be used on the mounting rails on the
handguard. The flash suppressor may be removed or the rifle may be manufactured without a flash suppressor.
Barrel length may not exceed 20 inches, as measured to the end of the rifling in the barrel. The front sling swivel
must be attached to the end of the handguard, and must remain in the 6 o’clock position no more than 1/2 inches
from its original location. The sights must be of the standard design found on the M16 series of firearms. Rear
sight windage and elevation adjustments may be modified to allow finer adjustments. No optical sights are
allowed. The removable carry handle and front sight assembly must conform to the dimensions specified. The rear
sight aperture and front sight width may vary in width to suit the shooter. The rear aperture may be hooded.

 

[aquinas]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Nitro69:

Didn't make it to perry this year. Plan on it next. Was having a rifle built and ordered it back in june and it wasn't ready for perry. Didn't think it would take that long. I could have taken an AR-10 or one of my 14's (which I love and they can still shoot), but i wanted a shot a doing well and for me that means AR-15.

Civvies can't just stop by the armorer's and grab a few for perry. Wish I could.

Is there a way to find out what everyone was shooting besides being there? (at perry)

I looked at the scores on the NRA website and could only get scores. I'd be kinda interested in seeing what everyone was shooting but the only way to do that, to the best of my knowledge, is to go and watch.

 

[aquinas]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I remember right, when I went to the NG MTU, NM maintaince/building clinic, the army was gluing their guns (M14s) in the stock, the marines were using lugs.

But that was a while ago, I spoke out of turn I guess. Didn't have enough sense to realize we were suppose to referring about SA's rifles. </div></div>

Dude, with those credentials you can speak out of turn any time you want.

 

[M21guy]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nitro69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will spend $1000 more on a M14, than the Ar-10 and the M14 will be will fall short by .25 moa. And to get both rifles under 1 moa, you will spend money. with semi auto gas guns......accuracy cost. so the real question is..What is your budget and what is your mission???? </div></div>
That right there is about the most accurate statment ever made regarding the AR10/M1a debate I've ever seen on a forum before. I'd buy into that.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: himaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nobody is winning with 14's today. The most used gun in service rifle is the AR-15 for several reasons.

The m14 and AR-10's are hard to shoot clean in offhand; they are just too heavy. Furthermore, they knock you more out of position in sitting and prone rapid due to heavier recoil than the AR-15.

The AR-10 might start winning once someone figures out how to win with it, but at this point and for the forseable future, the AR-15 dominates service rifle.

The trend in high power seems to be finding a balance between power and manageable recoil. Hence, we see a shift in match rifle away from .223 and to 6mm and 6.8mm...calibers like that.

You don't see guys shooting 30 cals or 300 win mags, even though ballistically, they are superior. A lot of it is managing recoil.

Another huge advantage of the AR-15 is cost to shoot. It's way cheaper and to get proficient with either service or match rifle, you have to shoot a lot. Practice, practice, practice.
Big calibers get expensive to shoot and take their toll on the shooter as well.

A very good Battle Brother of mine Sent me the results from camp perry two weeks ago........ the topic of discussion was "why is the ar-10 dominating, and why is the Army shooting team kicking our asses........" My Friend, is the Former Staff NCO IC, Marine Corps shooting team, Retired. His response was this: " In 2008, they started to allow AR-10's(mk110) into the service rifle category. The Army Jumped at the opportunity to use them.......The Marine Corps stopped using the M14 in 2004,due to a few catastrophic failures(even though ammunition was to blame). The Marine Corps would not allow the shooting team to use the AR10 platform, for what ever reason.........so they have been competing with the m16 every since." I have cut and pasted his email of this year's camp perry results. enjoy.




</div></div> Here are some of the results for the National Long Range Championships.....

The Palma Team match Service rifle category (four shooter using service rifles) the winning team was the US Army all using AR-10
The service rifle category individual long range match Day 1 (Farr trophy match) 1st-5th place was AR-10 (all army) and 6th place was M-16 (USMC)
The service rifle category individual long range match Day 2 (Doc Aiken trophy match) 1st-6th place was AR-10 (all army) and 7th place was M-16 (USMC)
Palma individual match Service rifle category (Mustin trophy) 1st-9th AR-10

Not too many people shooting M14/M1A anymore

Another interesting bit of information, this year the Army started shooting 7mm Short Action Ultra Magnums (SAUM) this is shot from a short action rifle and you can push a 7mm 180gr bullet at 2970 fps and it only has a drop of 50.10 inches at 1000 yards and cuts through the wind by almost half that of a .308 (At 1000 yards a .308 in a full value 10mph wind will drift 90 inches a 7mm SAUM will drift only 50 inches).

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nitro69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will spend $1000 more on a M14, than the Ar-10 and the M14 will be will fall short by .25 moa. And to get both rifles under 1 moa, you will spend money. with semi auto gas guns......accuracy cost. so the real question is..What is your budget and what is your mission???? </div></div>

I largely agree with you except on one point...that the M1A will fall short by .25 MOA. I wouldn't make that blanket statement or even call it a "general rule" if for any other reason than that when the M1A was in its prime and winning, it didn't have the aftermarket support that the AR10 enjoys and precision shooting as a sport had yet to grow legs. Only now can you get high speed M1A mods but due purely to low demand the price is high.

I'm only bring this up because I shoot both an M1A and AR10 long range weekly and I simply don't see a performance advantage in how either prints at distance. Now sure, my M1A wears a $1200 stock but there's no magic parts on it. It's a box stock SA M1A with a Sadlak mount and a 1.8-10X USO.

I was out today with 2 other hide members that witnessed this.

Conditions:

Range: 850
Temp 85-ish
RH 80%
Mirage: Fair-to-wicked
Wind: Choppy and intermittent, 3-7k changing rapidly from 4-6 o'clock

I didn't plan on shooting the M1A today but just took it along since the new USO had never been beyond 100 yards for a zero and fellow hider DMack wanted to check it out. So this was a cherry target.

1st sighter was off the plate right as the wind had died. Dialed a .5 mil correction and the wind changed again making the second sighter splash far right. I split the difference and printed the right group, maybe 10 inches as the winds were still in transition from 6 o'clock to 4 during this string.

Second group was with a steady 5k wind at 4 oclock (right after the wind shift was complete) and it printed slightly over 6 inches at 850. Point here is that AR10's don't shoot any better and I say this because I see it. I actually shoot both regurlarly and witness it. Yes, there are guys here that can tear it up with an AR10 at distance but as a rule they don't also shoot M1A's at distance so their observations are based largely on hearsay and internet chatter.

Expensive? Check
Slightly worse ergonomics? Check
Old? Dated? Check
Long and unwieldy? Maybe for a girl but OK...Check
Harder to shoot? Considering one of the finest auto triggers on earth? OK...screw it...Check
Poor aftermarket support? Check Check Check Check Check

Inacurrate? Unreliable?

Saying it and proving it are two different animals.

 

[DMack]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I was there. I can honestly attest to how WELL this rifle shoots. In fact, I had NEVER shot this rifle before, and I was able to put five rounds on this steel with zero difficulty. My first shot through the rifle, rang the steel.

Is it as accurate on paper as B/A's GAP-10? I can't say... but, would I want B/A shooting at me with it? HELL NO!!!

Is this rifle sexier than B/A's already sexy GAP-10? To an old Salt like me, the GAP-10 isn't even in the same ballpark as the curb appeal as the M1A...

In fact, I wish I had not seen this rifle, or shot it. Now, I have to have one!!!

As for the OP's question about choosing the M1A or an AR-10... I have no dog in that hunt. I am not a competition shooter, but I can not deny the feeling I got when I got in behind this M1A... Are they more expensive? Do they fall short in SR competition? Yes and yes. But, CAN they shoot? It blew my mind today.

 

[08Cayenne]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I took forum member JaimeD's long range shooting school in July. Shooting against bolt guns, some custom builds. I shot my stock SAI M21. It rang steel out to 1000 yards easily, did better than most if not all of the other rifles. it printed the tightest 100 yard group of the weekend. With that being said I want a Gap-10 to do a comparison.

As far as the difference, my Supermatch will shoot this:

And the National match will shoot this:

 

[Toddcal13]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nitro69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: himaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nobody is winning with 14's today. The most used gun in service rifle is the AR-15 for several reasons.

The m14 and AR-10's are hard to shoot clean in offhand; they are just too heavy. Furthermore, they knock you more out of position in sitting and prone rapid due to heavier recoil than the AR-15.

The AR-10 might start winning once someone figures out how to win with it, but at this point and for the forseable future, the AR-15 dominates service rifle.

The trend in high power seems to be finding a balance between power and manageable recoil. Hence, we see a shift in match rifle away from .223 and to 6mm and 6.8mm...calibers like that.

You don't see guys shooting 30 cals or 300 win mags, even though ballistically, they are superior. A lot of it is managing recoil.

Another huge advantage of the AR-15 is cost to shoot. It's way cheaper and to get proficient with either service or match rifle, you have to shoot a lot. Practice, practice, practice.
Big calibers get expensive to shoot and take their toll on the shooter as well.

A very good Battle Brother of mine Sent me the results from camp perry two weeks ago........ the topic of discussion was "why is the ar-10 dominating, and why is the Army shooting team kicking our asses........" My Friend, is the Former Staff NCO IC, Marine Corps shooting team, Retired. His response was this: " In 2008, they started to allow AR-10's(mk110) into the service rifle category. The Army Jumped at the opportunity to use them.......The Marine Corps stopped using the M14 in 2004,due to a few catastrophic failures(even though ammunition was to blame). The Marine Corps would not allow the shooting team to use the AR10 platform, for what ever reason.........so they have been competing with the m16 every since." I have cut and pasted his email of this year's camp perry results. enjoy.




</div></div> Here are some of the results for the National Long Range Championships.....

The Palma Team match Service rifle category (four shooter using service rifles) the winning team was the US Army all using AR-10
The service rifle category individual long range match Day 1 (Farr trophy match) 1st-5th place was AR-10 (all army) and 6th place was M-16 (USMC)
The service rifle category individual long range match Day 2 (Doc Aiken trophy match) 1st-6th place was AR-10 (all army) and 7th place was M-16 (USMC)
Palma individual match Service rifle category (Mustin trophy) 1st-9th AR-10

Not too many people shooting M14/M1A anymore

Another interesting bit of information, this year the Army started shooting 7mm Short Action Ultra Magnums (SAUM) this is shot from a short action rifle and you can push a 7mm 180gr bullet at 2970 fps and it only has a drop of 50.10 inches at 1000 yards and cuts through the wind by almost half that of a .308 (At 1000 yards a .308 in a full value 10mph wind will drift 90 inches a 7mm SAUM will drift only 50 inches).


</div></div>

Wait...typo... 7SAUM drop isnt 50in? I think it's ballpark 6-7 Mils

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nitro69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will spend $1000 more on a M14, than the Ar-10 and the M14 will be will fall short by .25 moa. And to get both rifles under 1 moa, you will spend money. with semi auto gas guns......accuracy cost. so the real question is..What is your budget and what is your mission???? </div></div>

I largely agree with you except on one point...that the M1A will fall short by .25 MOA. I wouldn't make that blanket statement or even call it a "general rule" if for any other reason than that when the M1A was in its prime and winning, it didn't have the aftermarket support that the AR10 enjoys and precision shooting as a sport had yet to grow legs. Only now can you get high speed M1A mods but due purely to low demand the price is high.

I'm only bring this up because I shoot both an M1A and AR10 long range weekly and I simply don't see a performance advantage in how either prints at distance. Now sure, my M1A wears a $1200 stock but there's no magic parts on it. It's a box stock SA M1A with a Sadlak mount and a 1.8-10X USO.

I was out today with 2 other hide members that witnessed this.

Conditions:

Range: 850
Temp 85-ish
RH 80%
Mirage: Fair-to-wicked
Wind: Choppy and intermittent, 3-7k changing rapidly from 4-6 o'clock

I didn't plan on shooting the M1A today but just took it along since the new USO had never been beyond 100 yards for a zero and fellow hider DMack wanted to check it out. So this was a cherry target.

1st sighter was off the plate right as the wind had died. Dialed a .5 mil correction and the wind changed again making the second sighter splash far right. I split the difference and printed the right group, maybe 10 inches as the winds were still in transition from 6 o'clock to 4 during this string.

Second group was with a steady 5k wind at 4 oclock (right after the wind shift was complete) and it printed slightly over 6 inches at 850. Point here is that AR10's don't shoot any better and I say this because I see it. I actually shoot both regurlarly and witness it. Yes, there are guys here that can tear it up with an AR10 at distance but as a rule they don't also shoot M1A's at distance so their observations are based largely on hearsay and internet chatter.

Expensive? Check
Slightly worse ergonomics? Check
Old? Dated? Check
Long and unwieldy? Maybe for a girl but OK...Check
Harder to shoot? Considering one of the finest auto triggers on earth? OK...screw it...Check
Poor aftermarket support? Check Check Check Check Check

Inacurrate? Unreliable?

Saying it and proving it are two different animals.

</div></div> Battle Axe, I agree with you...... I was just listing the camp perry facts ar10 vs ar15.........the Marine shooting team uses strictly ar15. and the results are definitely stacked in the ar10's favor. I was a former M16/ ar10 shooter......Now i have crossed over to the dark side and shoot a tricked out m14 and I love it. I have over 3000 rounds between two rifle's and only 2 misfeeds out of the socom 16(during a 700 rd. shoot) I'm very pleased with them.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I'm not going to correct the 98' Wimblton cup winner and staff ncoic of the marine shooting team.....but you can.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Toddcal13</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nitro69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: himaster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nobody is winning with 14's today. The most used gun in service rifle is the AR-15 for several reasons.

The m14 and AR-10's are hard to shoot clean in offhand; they are just too heavy. Furthermore, they knock you more out of position in sitting and prone rapid due to heavier recoil than the AR-15.

The AR-10 might start winning once someone figures out how to win with it, but at this point and for the forseable future, the AR-15 dominates service rifle.

The trend in high power seems to be finding a balance between power and manageable recoil. Hence, we see a shift in match rifle away from .223 and to 6mm and 6.8mm...calibers like that.

You don't see guys shooting 30 cals or 300 win mags, even though ballistically, they are superior. A lot of it is managing recoil.

Another huge advantage of the AR-15 is cost to shoot. It's way cheaper and to get proficient with either service or match rifle, you have to shoot a lot. Practice, practice, practice.
Big calibers get expensive to shoot and take their toll on the shooter as well.

A very good Battle Brother of mine Sent me the results from camp perry two weeks ago........ the topic of discussion was "why is the ar-10 dominating, and why is the Army shooting team kicking our asses........" My Friend, is the Former Staff NCO IC, Marine Corps shooting team, Retired. His response was this: " In 2008, they started to allow AR-10's(mk110) into the service rifle category. The Army Jumped at the opportunity to use them.......The Marine Corps stopped using the M14 in 2004,due to a few catastrophic failures(even though ammunition was to blame). The Marine Corps would not allow the shooting team to use the AR10 platform, for what ever reason.........so they have been competing with the m16 every since." I have cut and pasted his email of this year's camp perry results. enjoy.




</div></div> Here are some of the results for the National Long Range Championships.....

The Palma Team match Service rifle category (four shooter using service rifles) the winning team was the US Army all using AR-10
The service rifle category individual long range match Day 1 (Farr trophy match) 1st-5th place was AR-10 (all army) and 6th place was M-16 (USMC)
The service rifle category individual long range match Day 2 (Doc Aiken trophy match) 1st-6th place was AR-10 (all army) and 7th place was M-16 (USMC)
Palma individual match Service rifle category (Mustin trophy) 1st-9th AR-10

Not too many people shooting M14/M1A anymore

Another interesting bit of information, this year the Army started shooting 7mm Short Action Ultra Magnums (SAUM) this is shot from a short action rifle and you can push a 7mm 180gr bullet at 2970 fps and it only has a drop of 50.10 inches at 1000 yards and cuts through the wind by almost half that of a .308 (At 1000 yards a .308 in a full value 10mph wind will drift 90 inches a 7mm SAUM will drift only 50 inches).


</div></div>

Wait...typo... 7SAUM drop isnt 50in? I think it's ballpark 6-7 Mils</div></div>

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I need to stop clicking on threads about M14's! Just when I think that I am way too educated and modern and progressive a shooter, that my first semi-auto build should be an AR10 for cheap(er) and quick precision shooting right away I see threads like this where the old battle rifle is doing this!

I think it will still be an AR10 or two for me first, and when I am older and hopefully richer I will indulge in an M1A build. Until then I will just drool.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

my first build was a ar10-t.........good rifle. stupid accurate.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

 

[verdugo60]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Right on Jtac, that is pretty sick! The red dot on the side rounds it out, my dad has an ACOG with a minidot on top, on a SOCOM II. I think I like your optics set up more, and your's definately shoots better than his!

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Battle Axe, I agree with you...... I was just listing the camp perry facts ar10 vs ar15.........the Marine shooting team uses strictly ar15. and the results are definitely stacked in the ar10's favor. I was a former M16/ ar10 shooter......Now i have crossed over to the dark side and shoot a tricked out m14 and I love it. I have over 3000 rounds between two rifle's and only 2 misfeeds out of the socom 16(during a 700 rd. shoot) I'm very pleased with them. </div></div>I don't doubt it. I couldn't see a 15 outshooting a 10, particularly past 500 yards. I had my comp HBAR Ar15 out for the 1st time past 200 yards last weekend to see what she'd do at 600 and I couldn't even find the plate after 60 rounds. Not even one by accident. Of course I was shooting crap ammo but still.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on Jtac, that is pretty sick! The red dot on the side rounds it out, my dad has an ACOG with a minidot on top, on a SOCOM II. I think I like your optics set up more, and your's definately shoots better than his! </div></div> I saw one of these last sat. at the bullpup shoot in Mt. Carroll,IL. really cool....looked like a baby acog.....not sure what i would put it on,but none the less, very cool. http://www.lawenforcementsales.com/product_info.php/cPath/22_28_77_339/products_id/1064

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

By the way, If you are shopping for a NM or super match............talk to Jon @ www.m-14parts.com he really builds some nice rifles at a very,very fair price.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoahbodyImportant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the difference between the Springfield M1A National Match and Super Match?

I would like to compete in Across the Course, 600 and 1000 yard matches.

Maybe Im thinking too much on this. Maybe I should go with AR10 instead?</div></div>

 

[R.O.U.S.]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

That link doesn't seem to work. I wonder what's wrong?

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

http://www.m-14parts.com/M-14%20Parts%20Contact%20Page.html

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R.O.U.S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That link doesn't seem to work. I wonder what's wrong?
</div></div>

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I have a socom 16.......keep in mind that a socom 16 is a 2-3 moa rifle. the one in the pic with the suppressor is a High dollar Smith Ent. build......not a fair comparison.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Right on Jtac, that is pretty sick! The red dot on the side rounds it out, my dad has an ACOG with a minidot on top, on a SOCOM II. I think I like your optics set up more, and your's definately shoots better than his! </div></div>

 

[unrepentant]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nitro69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will spend $1000 more on a M14, than the Ar-10 and the M14 will be will fall short by .25 moa. And to get both rifles under 1 moa, you will spend money. with semi auto gas guns......accuracy cost. so the real question is..What is your budget and what is your mission???? </div></div>

I largely agree with you except on one point...that the M1A will fall short by .25 MOA. I wouldn't make that blanket statement or even call it a "general rule" if for any other reason than that when the M1A was in its prime and winning, it didn't have the aftermarket support that the AR10 enjoys and precision shooting as a sport had yet to grow legs. Only now can you get high speed M1A mods but due purely to low demand the price is high. ...

</div></div>

I agree with BattleAxe's abridged reply. He makes a good point with his inference that later technology and more recent "support" has allowed the M1A to achieve more accuracy than expected 15-20 years ago. With a JAE stock, my M1A Super Match comes pretty close to my GAP SH AR-10. There's no arguing that it cost me more to get that far w/ the M1A, though.

 

[nw911guy]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

</div></div>

Do you have some pics of the suppressor adapter mounted on that thing? As much as I like the universal approach of using AR10s and 15s, there is something unbelievably charming about M1A. I somehow suspect I'll have one within the year. Grendel build first though.

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

depending what you are putting it on.........Smith Ent. Inc. Vortex flash hider (1/2 x 28 thread for ar-15 or M14)(5/8 x 24 for AR10) Fisher Direct Connect (DC) Wind Talker. It has a pretty slick quick release set up. The suppressor slides right over the flash hider.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nw1911guy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

</div></div>

Do you have some pics of the suppressor adapter mounted on that thing? As much as I like the universal approach of using AR10s and 15s, there is something unbelievably charming about M1A. I somehow suspect I'll have one within the year. Grendel build first though. </div></div>

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

bump.

 

[Goot]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Every post an advertisement.

 

[cz777]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

</div></div> damn sexy short m-14 !!what is the weight and handling of her?

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

that's not my rifle, that's a buddy of mine...it has a med wt. barrel and weighs 12lbs.14oz with out glass, but because of the short compact size it feels a lot lighter.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cz777</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

</div></div> damn sexy short m-14 !!what is the weight and handling of her? </div></div>

 

[Sonic Crack]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

</div></div>

J-Tac who makes the adjustment ring handle thats on the scope? I gota get me one of them!

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

I think that is a badger ordinance.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sonic Crack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J-Tac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">SEI, Mk14, 18" barrel
Rogue chassis
Not your Granpa's M14!

</div></div>

J-Tac who makes the adjustment ring handle thats on the scope? I gota get me one of them! </div></div>

 

[Nitro69]

Re: Big Difference Between these M1A's?

Hey, did you decide on a rifle yet???


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoahbodyImportant</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What is the difference between the Springfield M1A National Match and Super Match?

I would like to compete in Across the Course, 600 and 1000 yard matches.

Maybe Im thinking too much on this. Maybe I should go with AR10 instead? </div></div>