Fieldcraft Bipods-use on hard surfaces.

[bttbbob]

I had an interesting conversation yesterday and received a blast over a statement that I made. I made the statement that bipods are should not be used on hard surfaces. I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about. Now I also cited several known Long Range Precision Instructors that share my thoughts.

Now I would like to hear from shooters that have taken formal classes. Not self taught folks. So any Instructors or actually trained shooters. My background in Long Rang Shooting is USMC trained, Leg Match shooting, several well known schools.

Here was my statement and please tell me your opinion: Bipods shouldn't be used on hard surfaces. Use sandbags. Not trying to be smart just truthful.

most guys that teach it won't agree with you. And I will ask you to take a little test. I don't want to argue. You can put it to the test. And I bet you will come to the same conclusion.......

Get on a Hard Surface---------
Prone or Bench
Shoot a 5 shot group off of a bipod-staged
Shoot a 5 shot group off of a field expedient rest-----Backpack or fanny
Shoot a 5 shot group off of a sandbag and sand sock

I will bet you if you give me a honest try.....You will not have a group as tight with with the bipod as you do with the other two methods. And I mean a drastic difference. I have had 100's of shooters do that test because they thought like you.

I would say Chuck Taylor is a fair Instructor and read on his page what he says about bipods.

A bipod IF… It's been my experience that even high-quality bipods produce lousy accuracy if used on a hard surface or with a rifle exhibiting serious recoil.

A small sandbag rest. I fill it with non-treated crushed walnut hull media to provide bulk without the heavy weight of sand or lead shot. This can be carried in a rucksack or daypack with ease and provides an excellent rest for use in normal conditions.
http://www.chucktayloramericansmallarmsacademy.com/longra...

Bipods are for immediate field expedient position and nothing else

Chuck Taylor's ASAA -Precision Shooting
Chuck Taylor's ASAA


Thoughts?

 

[damoncali]

A bipod can be used off of a hard surface effectively in my experience. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[bttbbob]

A bipod can be used off of a hard surface effectively in my experience. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Have you had formal training?

 

[damoncali]

A little. Not sure why that matters, though. I"m not sure what you're getting at. That sandbags are more stable than bipods? Yup. But what shot can't be made with a bipod that can be made with a bag? The difference is so slight that such a shot is a low percentage shot to begin with.

 

[bttbbob]

A little. Not sure why that matters, though. I"m not sure what you're getting at. That sandbags are more stable than bipods? Yup. But what shot can't be made with a bipod that can be made with a bag? The difference is so slight that such a shot is a low percentage shot to begin with.

Not trying to be offensive. But it does matter. And if you were to take the same challenge that I posted to the other person, I am sure you will agree.

Bolded - plenty

 

[Lowlight]

They work exactly the same as shooting off dirt. It's technique and training.

The surface only has bearing in exploiting the shooters weakness.

Ive vet done more than a few videos on the subject demonstrating it.

 

[damoncali]

Not trying to be offensive. But it does matter. And if you were to take the same challenge that I posted to the other person, I am sure you will agree.

Bolded - plenty

I think you're overstating the difference and looking for a one size fits all solution where none exists.

 

[Lowlight]

Here is the clue, they are selling something to a new inexperienced shooter. That is the takeaway.

We won't train you to do it right, but we'll sell you something to do it better.

 

[delfuego]

Why not a bench-rest or sled then? It would be way more stable than bags on a hard surface.

At our matches 95%-100% shoot off bipods, at itty-bitty targets from 200-800y. Most of us haven't been "Trained", but would likely crush a lot who have. I think your falling victim to the "Old-Guy" advice. Just because some has been shooting and teaching the same curriculum for 30 years doesn't mean there is not another way to do it. High-power and CMP guys do shoot of rucks, because they have to. I sometimes even shoot off mine, but I sure don't take off the bipod first.

Plus shooting groups is gay. I shoot for score, for hits and for fun.

 

[bttbbob]

Here is the clue, they are selling something to a new inexperienced shooter. That is the takeaway.

We won't train you to do it right, but we'll sell you something to do it better.

WOW.good post..........That is the difference between guys that have been there and done that. And those that haven't.....

 

[bttbbob]

Why not a bench-rest or sled then? It would be way more stable than bags on a hard surface.

At our matches 95%-100% shoot off bipods, at itty-bitty targets from 200-800y. Most of us haven't been "Trained", but would likely crush a lot who have. I think your falling victim to the "Old-Guy" advice. Just because some has been shooting and teaching the same curriculum for 30 years doesn't mean there is not another way to do it. High-power and CMP guys do shoot of rucks, because they have to. I sometimes even shoot off mine, but I sure don't take off the bipod first.



Plus shooting groups is gay. I shoot for score, for hits and for fun.

Really? Ya think? Tell me that when you hold a Distinguished shooter rating......

 

[bttbbob]

So again my question has to do with those have had some actual training. Or an Instructor in the field........

 

[Lowlight]

Hey Ramjet,

I am USMC Scout Sniper School trained, #48 with the SS/A Combat Life Member,

Also work as an Instructor ... can list who I have trained and worked with, but why bother, will say it is more impressive than you.

Just for you, cause you're so High Speed, Low Drag... here is just 12 Minutes of what is 45 Minutes of actual instruction with Recoil Management for the lessons I teach, it's the middle section so there is a part before and after that is much more time than Chuck or you have ever invested in learning how to shoot with a bipod

<iframe id="viddler-1b174498" src="//www.viddler.com/embed/1b174498/?f=1&autoplay=0&player=full&secret=68644311&disablebackwardseek=0&disableseek=0&disableforwardseek=0&loop=0&nologo=0&hd=1" width="640" height="402" frameborder="0" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true"></iframe>

 

[damoncali]

You are being told by people who have had training that with proper technique there is no significant disadvantage to shooting a bipod off of a hard service - even flat concrete.

Of course, people who figured this out on their own will tell you the same thing...

 

[damoncali]

Hey Ramjet,

I am USMC Scout Sniper School trained, #48 with the SS/A Combat Life Member,

Also work as an Instructor ... can list who I have trained and worked with, but why bother, will say it is more impressive than you.

Just for you, cause you're so High Speed, Low Drag... here is just 12 Minutes of what is 45 Minutes of actual instruction with Recoil Management for the lessons I teach, it's the middle section so there is a part before and after that is much more time than Chuck or you have ever invested in learning how to shoot with a bipod

Great video. WTF is brilliant.

 

[LRShooter101]

There is a reason the sling design below came about, as they say necessity is the mother of invention!



This technique can "tie" the rifle to the shooter in situations where you would otherwise have not have a good way to control/load the rifle, like shooting off of a hard/slick surface. Saw a similar setup used for the first time at the Int Sniper Comp, and having now used it myself, I really like it.

Also have a shooting mat with a similar setup



Per Lowlight's video above, you can obviously shoot with a bipod off of a hard surface, but options like the sling setup above also work.

And NO, I am not trying to sell anything, or pretend that I know it all!

 

[bttbbob]

Hey Ramjet,

I am USMC Scout Sniper School trained, #48 with the SS/A Combat Life Member,

Also work as an Instructor ... can list who I have trained and worked with, but why bother, will say it is more impressive than you.

Just for you, cause you're so High Speed, Low Drag... here is just 12 Minutes of what is 45 Minutes of actual instruction with Recoil Management for the lessons I teach, it's the middle section so there is a part before and after that is much more time than Chuck or you have ever invested in learning how to shoot with a bipod

<iframe id="viddler-1b174498" src="//www.viddler.com/embed/1b174498/?f=1&autoplay=0&player=full&secret=68644311&disablebackwardseek=0&disableseek=0&disableforwardseek=0&loop=0&nologo=0&hd=1" width="640" height="402" frameborder="0" mozallowfullscreen="true" webkitallowfullscreen="true"></iframe>

Excellent video, and no I am not high speed low drag, just a guy that has been teaching this for 38 years..You obviously are the high speed low drag guy....Oh and by the way. You did not address the test that I requested you take. I will repeat it for you.


Get on a Hard Surface---------
Prone or Bench
Shoot a 5 shot group off of a bipod-staged
Shoot a 5 shot group off of a field expedient rest-----Backpack or fanny
Shoot a 5 shot group off of a sandbag and sand sock

Are you telling us that you will shoot better off the bipod than the other two methods?

 

[Lowlight]

I am telling you I will shoot the same. The bipod will not influence my shot.

The reason we shot off bags in the past was because the M40A1 had no way of attaching a bipod, so we used our rucks. Depending on how you pack your ruck, or what is inside the pack will deform with each shot. Both sandbag and rucks are great for one or two shots but then begin to settle, that settling is counter to the term consistency.

Consistency is the key to any good shooting, especially groups. So what is more consistent than bipod legs that don't change in any way. All you have to do is manage the recoil and you can easily shoot consistent off a hard surface. Chuck Taylor is a handgun instructor, he lends one line to describe his observation, but even caveats it to say, In the past. We have learned a lot over the last 38 years, and with the wars that took, the instruction to some of the best snipers in the world, we have been able to adjust the training and doctrine away from what was taught before: Sling Shooting.

Shooting in the USMC, especially for anyone not a sniper is geared towards sling shooting. I was a multiple award expert, my highest score was a 243, which I shot with my M203 attached to the rifle. Today we understand that shooting off a bipod is just different enough to require changes to the technique. How you explain positions to a Palma Shooter would not necessarily apply to an F Class shooter, or even Benchrest shooting, the main difference, the Sling. When you take the approach to used when shooting a sling and try to use that same technique with a bipod you run in to obvious (or not so for some) problems, mainly recoil management. Recoil management controls the position of the barrel and where the bullet will exit. Consistency

If you watch the video, you'll see just how little the bipod moves, I can be consistent because my technique manages the recoil. If you search YouTube (I have no interest in doing it for you at this point) you'll find me employing this same technique off a wooden deck, and off Concrete. The results are the same.

Sure you can use a variety of objects to help manage the recoil, or you can get straight behind the rifle, and employ proper recoil management techniques. I can also demonstrate and have, the same techniques using a Tripod or any variety of alternate positions. If you note in the video I can easily spot my own shots even at 400 yards (were time of flight is short, I can do it at 100 too) you'll understand the value of it. I don't have a spotter, a cameraman or anyone else on the range with me, yet I can tell you the exact Mil Measurement I am off or on Target. I can tell you which impact on a shot up piece of steel was my most recent one.

And to shortcut the potential debate, there is also a video of me doing this same thing with a 338LM with a 20" barrel the rifle movement is straight to the rear and very minor.

 

[bttbbob]

I am telling you I will shoot the same. The bipod will not influence my shot.

The reason we shot off bags in the past was because the M40A1 had no way of attaching a bipod, so we used our rucks. Depending on how you pack your ruck, or what is inside the pack will deform with each shot. Both sandbag and rucks are great for one or two shots but then begin to settle, that settling is counter to the term consistency.

Consistency is the key to any good shooting, especially groups. So what is more consistent than bipod legs that don't change in any way. All you have to do is manage the recoil and you can easily shoot consistent off a hard surface. Chuck Taylor is a handgun instructor, he lends one line to describe his observation, but even caveats it to say, In the past. We have learned a lot over the last 38 years, and with the wars that took, the instruction to some of the best snipers in the world, we have been able to adjust the training and doctrine away from what was taught before: Sling Shooting.

Shooting in the USMC, especially for anyone not a sniper is geared towards sling shooting. I was a multiple award expert, my highest score was a 243, which I shot with my M203 attached to the rifle. Today we understand that shooting off a bipod is just different enough to require changes to the technique. How you explain positions to a Palma Shooter would not necessarily apply to an F Class shooter, or even Benchrest shooting, the main difference, the Sling. When you take the approach to used when shooting a sling and try to use that same technique with a bipod you run in to obvious (or not so for some) problems, mainly recoil management. Recoil management controls the position of the barrel and where the bullet will exit. Consistency

If you watch the video, you'll see just how little the bipod moves, I can be consistent because my technique manages the recoil. If you search YouTube (I have no interest in doing it for you at this point) you'll find me employing this same technique off a wooden deck, and off Concrete. The results are the same.

Sure you can use a variety of objects to help manage the recoil, or you can get straight behind the rifle, and employ proper recoil management techniques. I can also demonstrate and have, the same techniques using a Tripod or any variety of alternate positions. If you note in the video I can easily spot my own shots even at 400 yards (were time of flight is short, I can do it at 100 too) you'll understand the value of it. I don't have a spotter, a cameraman or anyone else on the range with me, yet I can tell you the exact Mil Measurement I am off or on Target. I can tell you which impact on a shot up piece of steel was my most recent one.

And to shortcut the potential debate, there is also a video of me doing this same thing with a 338LM with a 20" barrel the rifle movement is straight to the rear and very minor.

Semper Fi and so was I as a Marine PMI.....4 time expert rifle and pistol........

By the way I was never a sniper or a Wimbleton Cup winner. But I was the Chief PMI at Quantico where the Sniper School is. I shot with some of the best the Marine Corps has had. Have the tee shirt to prove it. So I have trained more than a few rifle and pistol shooters in my time.

 

[hermosabeach]

Bob-
I like your list of credentials... I saw one of your other posts and figured that this us you... SFLA GunSchool Instructors

I guess I am confused a bit about your question... Are you asking about a shooter using a harris type bipod with rubber feet on a light mouse gun or an F class gun...

Do you have any videos from your classes with typical students shooting the drill and the results?


I have been shocked watching stringing from other shooters shooting a light .308 off of a bipod on hard dirt...

 

[bttbbob]

Bob-
I like your list of credentials... I saw one of your other posts and figured that this us you... SFLA GunSchool Instructors

I guess I am confused a bit about your question... Are you asking about a shooter using a harris type bipod with rubber feet on a light mouse gun or an F class gun...

Do you have any videos from your classes with typical students shooting the drill and the results?


I have been shocked watching stringing from other shooters shooting a light .308 off of a bipod on hard dirt...

How so?

 

[Lowlight]

Too bad that was your only take away from all that I wrote.

Here, the internet is full of images much the same

Off a bipod on Concrete.

With Robert Gradous in GA, when I built my own rifle, shooting off a concrete bench @ 100

This rifle as pictured was how it was shot

Off a Bipod on Concrete at K&M prior to the GAP Grind

I also will proof some rifles, and in winter I shoot it off a bipod, off a bench indoors,

and other than the Robert Gradous stuff, I only shoot factory ammo... no hand loads as I am too lazy to do it.

These were just a few on Facebook I have, if you search the videos there is more than enough examples to poke holes in the theory.

 

[orkan]

I believe in equipment choices that provide the most forgiving environment possible. Sometimes there are many choices of equipment, making selection kind of difficult. The cream often rises to the top however.

Harris bipods and those with similar designs are generally the least forgiving. They have hard plastic feet, and a very rigid stance. On hard surfaces, this translates into the rifle more than it would with a bipod providing softer, less rigid contact. An Atlas bipod for instance, will be more forgiving of shooter deficiencies on hard surfaces, than a Harris, due to the Atlas having soft rubbery feet, and a bit of flex. Not every situation allows me to be setup perfectly behind the rifle. The more forgiving equipment I can use, the more I can get away with, the more consistent my performance on target will be.

 

[bttbbob]

Bob-
I like your list of credentials... I saw one of your other posts and figured that this us you... SFLA GunSchool Instructors

I guess I am confused a bit about your question... Are you asking about a shooter using a harris type bipod with rubber feet on a light mouse gun or an F class gun...

Do you have any videos from your classes with typical students shooting the drill and the results?


I have been shocked watching stringing from other shooters shooting a light .308 off of a bipod on hard dirt...

Yes that is me......I do not do youtube videos. I have been in business since 1978 as a firearms trainer. I learned my trade on the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team and as a PMI at the premier gun range in the world.....Quantico.

 

[bttbbob]

I believe in equipment choices that provide the most forgiving environment possible. Sometimes there are many choices of equipment, making selection kind of difficult. The cream often rises to the top however.

Harris bipods and those with similar designs are generally the least forgiving. They have hard plastic feet, and a very rigid stance. On hard surfaces, this translates into the rifle more than it would with a bipod providing softer, less rigid contact. An Atlas bipod for instance, will be more forgiving of shooter deficiencies on hard surfaces, than a Harris, due to the Atlas having soft rubbery feet, and a bit of flex. Not every situation allows me to be setup perfectly behind the rifle. The more forgiving equipment I can use, the more I can get away with, the more consistent my performance on target will be.

Fact........and bipods on hard surfaces are not forgiving.

 

[Lowlight]

Kidding right, it's clearly a technique thing, if you watch the videos, or even just the old (circa 2009) you'll see when everything is right it does not move and you can easily control the shot. When I switch to support side, which a less than perfect position (simply due to lack of practice) it moves more so... it clearly demonstrates the problem is with the shooter. It's a training issue.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VjG1JZxiui0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In the field if you believe your position will be compromised and do not have the experience to overcome it, or time and opportunity is not there to help you fine tune the position to properly manage the recoil, then sure, you can use the tools available to assist the shooter. But really, you can shoot from anywhere and manage the recoil as long as you understand the elements.

But it is not an issue with the gear, it's an issue with the training, and the shooter. The level of experience will dictate how much you can maneuver, but that is still not an issue with the bipod itself. It's because training is still centered around sling shooting and that causes the problems. Bad habits take about 9000 perfect reps to fix, if you start out with a bad habit, and nobody tells you it becomes muscle memory and while many have adapted those habits enough to call them successful, it does not make them correct.

20" 338 Lapua Magnum, thanks to video, we can see just how little the rifle moves when your position is good. For the record, I weigh 135LBS.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/f5bZUm681Ys" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

By the way I was zeroing that rifle for the Larry Vicker's Tactical Impact TV show and at 400m, I shot a 1/2 MOA group, off a bipod.

 

[bttbbob]

Kidding right, it's clearly a technique thing, if you watch the videos, or even just the old (circa 2009) you'll see when everything is right it does not move and you can easily control the shot. When I switch to support side, which a less than perfect position (simply due to lack of practice) it moves more so... it clearly demonstrates the problem is with the shooter. It's a training issue.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/VjG1JZxiui0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In the field if you believe your position will be compromised and do not have the experience to overcome it, or time and opportunity is not there to help you fine tune the position to properly manage the recoil, then sure, you can use the tools available to assist the shooter. But really, you can shoot from anywhere and manage the recoil as long as you understand the elements.

But it is not an issue with the gear, it's an issue with the training, and the shooter. The level of experience will dictate how much you can maneuver, but that is still not an issue with the bipod itself. It's because training is still centered around sling shooting and that causes the problems. Bad habits take about 9000 perfect reps to fix, if you start out with a bad habit, and nobody tells you it becomes muscle memory and while many have adapted those habits enough to call them successful, it does not make them correct.

20" 338 Lapua Magnum, thanks to video, we can see just how little the rifle moves when your position is good. For the record, I weigh 135LBS.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/f5bZUm681Ys" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

By the way I was zeroing that rifle for the Larry Vicker's Tactical Impact TV show and at 400m, I shot a 1/2 MOA group, off a bipod.

Please don't use the second video as an example. The bipod is not on a hard surface. The legs are dug into the ground.

 

[Lowlight]

It's still a 20" 338 BOB... maybe you'll show us your technique with one.

And it's not "dug in" although it will settle in a bit, and it's gravel, last time I checked Rocks were hard, hence the phrase, dumb as a box of rocks.

It's typical of what the majority of shooters will see, as that is an NRA High Power Range.

I still haven't seen you address anything I have shown you with some substance.

 

[bttbbob]

It's still a 20" 338 BOB... maybe you'll show us your technique with one.

And it's not "dug in" although it will settle in a bit, and it's gravel, last time I checked Rocks were hard, hence the phrase, dumb as a box of rocks.

It's typical of what the majority of shooters will see, as that is an NRA High Power Range.

I still haven't seen you address anything I have shown you with some substance.

I am sorry you haven't seen it. I addressed every argument to this with the challenge that I posted. I have seen hundreds, not one or two, take this same challenge. They came away with the same result.....Look I am not trying to get in to a pissing contest. I am simply stating a fact of what I have seen over 3 decades of doing this.

 

[Lowlight]

Hundreds of who, inexperienced shooters who are being told, "they can't do it" ...

Sad state of affairs when an instructor is saying you can't learn to do something better, or different that you need to get a bag in order to do it based on their perception.

How many people who actually had some training, know to get straight back behind the rifle, employ solid recoil management techniques ?

 

[bttbbob]

Hundreds of who, inexperienced shooters who are being told, "they can't do it" ...

Sad state of affairs when an instructor is saying you can't learn to do something better, or different that you need to get a bag in order to do it based on their perception.

How many people who actually had some training, know to get straight back behind the rifle, employ solid recoil management techniques ?[/QUOTE.....It has been military, LEO and Civilians. Most have had training and not from rank amateurs. And technique is important, but the correct technique is more important. And recoil control works best from a solid rest as oppose to a moving rest.

 

[Graham]

Most have had training and not from rank amateurs.

Are you certain of that?

 

[bttbbob]

Are you certain of that?

hahahahahaaa I would know.

 

[Lowlight]

Says, the guy having students shooting off this

ya that is practical.

LOL

it's a joke, rank amateur, is that for me, cause this month alone my training line for one class looked like this:

I did 26 students in 10 days this month, so must be doing something right, and oh look not a single 50:LBS sandbag on the line.

But i get it, I am not cool enough to teach people doctrine from 1976... must not be tall enough to reach the old copies of Leatherneck

Anytime you want to compare notes there, Bob... let me know, so far I have to say, other than your "challenge" you haven't said or shown a single thing that is practical to anyone... lack of substance comes to mind.

 

[bttbbob]

I got to tell you, I am impressed. And more impressed that you can defy physics....... I am done.

 

[_Windrider_]

I got to tell you, I am impressed. And more impressed that you can defy physics....... I am done.

http://youtu.be/yhQql-ZbZmg


Posted via Tapatalk HD for iPad

 

[Lowlight]

Of course you are...

Remember for your own instructor improvement, recoil management instruction looks like this:

Physics states the bullet goes straight out the barrel, recoil goes in the opposite directly unless acted on by an outside force, (the shooter) if you eliminate angles and employ proper recoil management, you can keep the recoil going in a straight line. That is the beauty of video, I can demonstrate it. That way when you need to step up and teach guys like this you can show them how to manage it when things don't go exactly right

 

[ZombieMonkey]

Sorry bob, but you are quite clearly very wrong. As Frank and others have stated, if you can properly manage the recoil of a rifle through the implementation of proper fundamentals, it doesn't matter if you use a bipod or sand bags the results should be the same. That has been my experience. I actually prefer the bipod if I'm in a position where I can use it, it's very stable and consistent. Consistency is key.

And I'm sorry that you believe your 38 years of firearms instruction makes you a subject matter expert, but it doesn't. It simply means that you have been teaching for that long. There is a difference between a good teacher and a poor teacher. The good teacher will continue to stay on top of building their proficiency and studying/learning new techniques and training to stay current with advances within their field. And there have been a lot of them over the years. As a younger guy I can see this going to LEO training classes where some of the dinosaurs never wished to progress and have been regurgitating the same useless crap for years. They are set in their ways. Then there are those who have poured their heart and soul into continuing improve and learn more which shows as they have taken their training to the next level.

There are a number of reasons on why guys are now shooting further than ever before on a consistent basis and doing so more accurately. Some of the equipment has gotten better, yes. However, a lot of the stuff being trained today vs. what was previously trained has significantly improved in both rifle and pistol shooting.

If I remember once I reach my days off I'll gladly go out to the range and perform your silly test and post up the results with a pretty standard rifle and some pretty dang good ammo. Hell, I'll even post it up for you. The results will be the same. I am far from being the best shooter here as Frank and others are way more qualified than I am.

 

[ajwcotton]

The bottom line is that you can teach someone to shoot off bags easier than you can teach them to use proper techniques. In addition, why would anyone shoot off sandbags? I shoot to practice for shots that I might encounter in real life weather it be at a match or on a two range. Since I would never hump a sandbag around why would I build my technique around the use of such? Why would you teach people to shoot off sandbags? Because you don't have the foresight to know that they aren't going to just shoot off bags either.

 

[orkan]

Kidding right, it's clearly a technique thing, if you watch the videos, or even just the old (circa 2009) you'll see when everything is right it does not move and you can easily control the shot. When I switch to support side, which a less than perfect position (simply due to lack of practice) it moves more so... it clearly demonstrates the problem is with the shooter. It's a training issue.

Exactly, which is why some bipods allow for a better position, while others are less forgiving. Proper loading of the bipod goes a long way toward having a good firing position. A Harris being very rigid, and with hard plastic feet, doesn't like to be loaded on slick concrete. This is especially true for the notch-leg models, as they like to rotate. Very tough to get a good load that way. The Atlas on the other hand is quite easy to deal with on slick concrete. It flexes a bit, and has nice rubber feet which grip the surface more than the Harris. Easier to get a good load on the system with an atlas vs a harris.

I'll take any advantage I can get. If I have a choice between a Harris, or an Atlas... I'll pick the Atlas. Doesn't mean I can't use a rifle with a Harris on it. It just means the Atlas has proven more forgiving for me and is far more versatile. Given the opportunity in a firing position to choose concrete, or dirt... I'll put my bipod in the dirt, regardless of it's maker.

bttbbob, the bolded part of my post you quoted is indeed my position, but it does not support yours, in that all bipods in general are not forgiving off hard surfaces. That is a wide sweeping blanket statement, and I'm not a fan of those if they can be avoided. Sure, if you are using a harris with podclaws on the concrete, it will create about as unforgiving of a setup as can be had. However, Atlas bipods as well as several others are quite forgiving off hard surfaces. I have no idea what the context of the picture with the white sandbags is, but obviously that is not field-practical. ... but again, I don't know the context of that picture or what is being worked on there.

 

[MDM]

I was told this weekend to NEVER ever load your bipod, it causes unwanted stress on the rifle. Any truth to this?

 

[Splat]

Dang! Out of popcorn!

 

[orkan]

I was told this weekend to NEVER ever load your bipod, it causes unwanted stress on the rifle. Any truth to this?

I'd question that source's field experience. While it can be true on a rifle that needs a gunsmith's attention, it generally is not true for most rifles we would recommend. Rifles wearing a hogue overmold stock for instance, will most certainly shift their POI as a result of varying bipod pressure. It is easily demonstrated. Any reasonable stock will not flex in that manner, and generally will not shift POI based on reasonable bipod pressure.

 

[Lowlight]

If you watch the video I posted, you'll see clearly I am not "stressing" out the rifle, and the load is very small, simply taking out the slack.

I don't push the rifle, the weight comes from the core.

I have seen people move the Hogue stocks, and the Savage Tupperware ones, but if you do it right, you can load the bipod without putting pressure on the stock.

 

[delfuego]

Really? Ya think? Tell me that when you hold a Distinguished shooter rating......

It seems to me your looking for an "Echo Chamber" rather that a real discussion. If your such a stud, why do you care about the opinion of a bunch of keyboard-commandos. Nobody here is "Qualified" to question your techniques.

 

[MDM]

I'd question that source's field experience. While it can be true on a rifle that needs a gunsmith's attention, it generally is not true for most rifles we would recommend. Rifles wearing a hogue overmold stock for instance, will most certainly shift their POI as a result of varying bipod pressure. It is easily demonstrated. Any reasonable stock will not flex in that manner, and generally will not shift POI based on reasonable bipod pressure.

Roger that. This came from a very prominent Precision/tactical trainer in the local area. I will rock on loading the pod as I have been. I've not noticed any issues with stress and I've been doing it Frank's way for a few years with good results.

 

[Lowlight]

That is what happens when they are not sure "how to do it" and are missing key elements of the instruction.

It's easier to say it causes adverse effects than to show someone how to do it correctly.

You can deflect the question over to say, it's less accurate, so use a sandbag, it's causing stress on the stock, use a 3 point rest, it's not effective, just shoot and hit it the first time and let your spotter adjust... the excuses are endless

 

[Abq-Defense]

I know in my experience, I got better results in the beginning off a rest/sandbag, but then I put a lot of time in on my 338LM, really focusing on squaring up the shoulder and seeing my hits. Now, I seem to get good groups off a bipod.

Is it fair to summarize this debate, that a beginner or intermediate shooter will generally do better off a rest/sandbag setup, but someone that has had proper training can get similar results with a bipod?

 

[wilwith1l]

I was told this weekend to NEVER ever load your bipod, it causes unwanted stress on the rifle. Any truth to this?

It's personal preference. Do what produces consistent results. I'll never go back to not loading. Especially shooting a magnum load without a break.

Honestly, when I figured out how to load the bipods, I felt like an idiot for not thinking it up on my own.

Edit: Also, I shoot bipods on concrete. Carrying a sand bags (or even packs) isn't always practical. I couldn't imagine taking much more than a fanny pack on a stalk mission.

 

[Lowlight]

It's pretty clear, "we" knew something they, (or Bob) didn't because, 1, he didn't mention a thing about the videos, (other than to claim the 338 was dug in) and 2, he never said a word about the groups posted despite being shot off a bipod.

I shoot everything off a bipod and any group posted, past, present or future was more than likely shot off as bipod as it's my default vehicle for doing any of it.

Even back in the day, when I wanted superior accuracy from the M40A1 I didn't use a Pack, I had 3 shelter half poles put together with 550 cord to form a small tripod. That tripod set up was more consistent than a pack. As I have noted, packs settle and move, and with groups are not consistent at all. It's a great 1 shot option, and when you have no choice but to use a pack or something like that because you don't have a bipod, it works better than great.

It's basically guys see pictures in books or on the internet and copy it. It's why guys will shoot a rifle with a bipod off to the side and wonder why it "hops", because they saw a guy with a sling do it, and don't know enough to change. When we are missing the information necessary, we mimic what we see, which is just as bad as repeating doctrine from the 70s without realizing things have changed. Sure after 30+ years of practice, demonstrating you're accurate is easy, but does it help your students ? There are a lot of, "good - bad shooters" out there who have adapted their poor fundamentals to eek out some accuracy. As long as you don't take them out of their comfort zones. Then it all breaks down. It's usually crystal clear when they enter in a match, their good shooting at home is no longer on display because they cannot control the circumstances. No bags, no time to set up, not used to being in alternate positions, so the nuances are missing and things go to hell.

One note too, it's about staying in your lane. There are a lot of instructors out there who like to dabble in a bit of everything. I have been too a ton of classes with some pretty reputable names, Clint Smith, Larry Vickers, Tiger McKee, Pat Rodgers, Gunstite, etc. But you don't see me selling people on what those guys do. I stick to my lane. Sure i have worked as an instructor during handgun and carbine classes, but it's not my lane. So I avoid handing out advice on those subjects. That is where people get in trouble, when they start crossing over and are missing some of the finer points. It's those finer points with a handgun or carbine that keep me from commenting. If a total novice showed up, i can certainly hold my own, but you won't find me selling it online, and over the years here, I have not crossed in to others areas of shooting expertise. You can suggest i am coming off like a know it all, but if you are really paying attention, I stick to my lane, and to me it's a better way to operate than being a practicing jack of all trades, at least in the context of instructing...