I recently had a discussion with a fellow shooter that argued about boattail bullets being superior. I asked him "superior, on what basis?" I lost him him from the getgo. I tried to get him to understand that many rifles, especially sub .30 cal, do NOT shoot BTs well at all and never will for various reasons. He was solely addressing drag/bc. Upon getting him to understand that accuracy generally supersedes drag/bc, he started to understand the pitfalls of placing the importance of bc before the importance of accuarcy, etc. Question...are there more shooters out there that have the same tunnel vision???
- Thread starter boltgunluvr
- Start date
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Everyone starts the process in an uneducted state.
Everyone starts the process in an uneducted state.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
It also depends on the rifle and the round used, but in general, boat tail bullets don't tend to do as well because of the gas leak that happens when the round leaves the barrel, which effects boat tails and not flat base.
It also depends on the rifle and the round used, but in general, boat tail bullets don't tend to do as well because of the gas leak that happens when the round leaves the barrel, which effects boat tails and not flat base.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
Not true but thanks for playing. 1000yd BR gamers have been using FB bullets with success for several years now.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
Not true but thanks for playing. 1000yd BR gamers have been using FB bullets with success for several years now.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
My point is if a BT bullet isn't providing good accuracy...... what's the point! Forget all about BC/Drag...it's meaningless when one's gun won't shoot worth a damn. If it isn't accurate at 100, it's worse at 500, 1000, etc. Why waste any more time & money on BTs when one's gun won't shoot it well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
My point is if a BT bullet isn't providing good accuracy...... what's the point! Forget all about BC/Drag...it's meaningless when one's gun won't shoot worth a damn. If it isn't accurate at 100, it's worse at 500, 1000, etc. Why waste any more time & money on BTs when one's gun won't shoot it well.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
True enough. If your gun shoots both equally accurately the BT will pay dividends at long range.
If it wasn't accurate in the first place why would you care how fast it was still travelling or how little it dropped when you missed what you were shooting at?
True enough. If your gun shoots both equally accurately the BT will pay dividends at long range.
If it wasn't accurate in the first place why would you care how fast it was still travelling or how little it dropped when you missed what you were shooting at?
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It also depends on the rifle and the round used, but in general, boat tail bullets don't tend to do as well because of the gas leak that happens when the round leaves the barrel, which effects boat tails and not flat base. </div></div>
Yes, the rule of thumb I have always been given by people that know more than I do, is that under 400, Flat base Bullets are superior.
I have had superior group sizes at 300 yards in .220 Swift and .223 with Sierra 60 gr Varminters (Flat base) than any other boat tail bullet (I am not trying to cheat the wind as much at 300 with a .220).
I have noted similar results in larger calibers with FB bullets over BT.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It also depends on the rifle and the round used, but in general, boat tail bullets don't tend to do as well because of the gas leak that happens when the round leaves the barrel, which effects boat tails and not flat base. </div></div>
Yes, the rule of thumb I have always been given by people that know more than I do, is that under 400, Flat base Bullets are superior.
I have had superior group sizes at 300 yards in .220 Swift and .223 with Sierra 60 gr Varminters (Flat base) than any other boat tail bullet (I am not trying to cheat the wind as much at 300 with a .220).
I have noted similar results in larger calibers with FB bullets over BT.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
My point is if a BT bullet isn't providing good accuracy...... what's the point! Forget all about BC/Drag...it's meaningless when one's gun won't shoot worth a damn. If it isn't accurate at 100, it's worse at 500, 1000, etc. Why waste any more time & money on BTs when one's gun won't shoot it well. </div></div>
You're exaggerating the effect on the boat tail. A BT bullet is still going to be very accurate, heck, my BT 200gr. TTSX shoot better than my FB 200gr. TSX, like I said, it depends on the rifle and rounds used. With the correct crown (one that deflects the gases outward) the BT WILL be more accurate than the FB, as in my rifle's case. Here is a reason why BT are more accurate at long range:
flat bases tend to warp when fired, due to the inertia of the mass as its being fired, some of the mass bulges at the base. The picture showcases some extreme cases of this, but the one on the left is more common. As you can see, the BT doesn't have this kind of bulge, or at least its not dramatic enough to have any sort of effect.
What this means is that initially the FB will be very accurate, you have the rifling to thank for that. As the round continues through its trajectory, the bulge begins to destabilize the round, causing it to be less accurate at longer range. The BT doesnt suffer from this, so even though it initially may not be as accurate (were talking a very miniscule difference in accuracy, but that difference may vary depending on rifle), the BT will be more stable the further out it is shot, and thus why it is more accurate at long range.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltgunluvr</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
My point is if a BT bullet isn't providing good accuracy...... what's the point! Forget all about BC/Drag...it's meaningless when one's gun won't shoot worth a damn. If it isn't accurate at 100, it's worse at 500, 1000, etc. Why waste any more time & money on BTs when one's gun won't shoot it well. </div></div>
You're exaggerating the effect on the boat tail. A BT bullet is still going to be very accurate, heck, my BT 200gr. TTSX shoot better than my FB 200gr. TSX, like I said, it depends on the rifle and rounds used. With the correct crown (one that deflects the gases outward) the BT WILL be more accurate than the FB, as in my rifle's case. Here is a reason why BT are more accurate at long range:
flat bases tend to warp when fired, due to the inertia of the mass as its being fired, some of the mass bulges at the base. The picture showcases some extreme cases of this, but the one on the left is more common. As you can see, the BT doesn't have this kind of bulge, or at least its not dramatic enough to have any sort of effect.
What this means is that initially the FB will be very accurate, you have the rifling to thank for that. As the round continues through its trajectory, the bulge begins to destabilize the round, causing it to be less accurate at longer range. The BT doesnt suffer from this, so even though it initially may not be as accurate (were talking a very miniscule difference in accuracy, but that difference may vary depending on rifle), the BT will be more stable the further out it is shot, and thus why it is more accurate at long range.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Very informative thread! It couldn't have been explained better, and the illustrations help emphasize the data being conveyed.
Very informative thread! It couldn't have been explained better, and the illustrations help emphasize the data being conveyed.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
If the boattail is a disadvantage then why was a 1000 yard benchrest record set using the Hornady A-max bullets? 105gr out of a standard 6br case created a 4.2" 10 shot group.
If the boattail is a disadvantage then why was a 1000 yard benchrest record set using the Hornady A-max bullets? 105gr out of a standard 6br case created a 4.2" 10 shot group.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Don't argue with the rifle.
Don't argue with the rifle.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
i woulnd't say they are a disadvantage... you just have to think, disadvantage for what purpose... if i shoot sub's its under 100m, and they are a rebated boattail, and are freaking accurate. not to metion silent. now i won't shoot it past 150.
I say don't get wrapped around ONE idea. glean a little from everything. if you wanted to kill someone (think military here...ok) from 1.5k + you WILL defenitely be using a bt, because it is more stable/less affected by atmospherics SP? at said distances - any way you have to get outside the box and think, what are you trying to accomplish. just my .02
i woulnd't say they are a disadvantage... you just have to think, disadvantage for what purpose... if i shoot sub's its under 100m, and they are a rebated boattail, and are freaking accurate. not to metion silent. now i won't shoot it past 150.
I say don't get wrapped around ONE idea. glean a little from everything. if you wanted to kill someone (think military here...ok) from 1.5k + you WILL defenitely be using a bt, because it is more stable/less affected by atmospherics SP? at said distances - any way you have to get outside the box and think, what are you trying to accomplish. just my .02
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
In case you guys didn't get any of my hints, I was trying to point out that the accuracy difference at close range isn't that great, just shoot what your rifle likes for your intended purpose, don't worry about BT or FB unless you're getting into the long range game.
In case you guys didn't get any of my hints, I was trying to point out that the accuracy difference at close range isn't that great, just shoot what your rifle likes for your intended purpose, don't worry about BT or FB unless you're getting into the long range game.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I use to go after bt's whenever possible, but in all reality, I've never had them shoot any better or worse. I have some loads worked up for hunting, some for target, and some for blasting.
I think BC will make more of a difference than BT vs flatbase. Some flatbases have high bc's.
I use to go after bt's whenever possible, but in all reality, I've never had them shoot any better or worse. I have some loads worked up for hunting, some for target, and some for blasting.
I think BC will make more of a difference than BT vs flatbase. Some flatbases have high bc's.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonprox700</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use to go after bt's whenever possible, but in all reality, I've never had them shoot any better or worse. I have some loads worked up for hunting, some for target, and some for blasting.
I think BC will make more of a difference than BT vs flatbase. Some flatbases have high bc's. </div></div>
Well stated. And I'll generally choose the high BC flat base over the BT.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonprox700</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I use to go after bt's whenever possible, but in all reality, I've never had them shoot any better or worse. I have some loads worked up for hunting, some for target, and some for blasting.
I think BC will make more of a difference than BT vs flatbase. Some flatbases have high bc's. </div></div>
Well stated. And I'll generally choose the high BC flat base over the BT.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
its easier to achieve a lower ES/SD with flatbase bullets. So they tend to group better then boattail bullets, even at long range.
the boat tail does have a higher BC though , so you'll get a better point blank zero
the real advantage of the boat tail is that it remains stable when transitioning from super sonic to sub sonic velocities.So if you know you'll never shoot past that trasition, there might not be much of a point in using boattail bullets.
its easier to achieve a lower ES/SD with flatbase bullets. So they tend to group better then boattail bullets, even at long range.
the boat tail does have a higher BC though , so you'll get a better point blank zero
the real advantage of the boat tail is that it remains stable when transitioning from super sonic to sub sonic velocities.So if you know you'll never shoot past that trasition, there might not be much of a point in using boattail bullets.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
It might be a stupid reason, but I like boat-tails because they are easier to seat. I have never had trouble getting them to shoot up to my requirements at close or long range so I don't see any reason not to use them.
It might be a stupid reason, but I like boat-tails because they are easier to seat. I have never had trouble getting them to shoot up to my requirements at close or long range so I don't see any reason not to use them.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
I think it depends on the definition of short and long range what? Paper or gongs is one thing, but ethical hunting is something else. And yes, I much prefer flat base bullets for hunting. One, they are more accurate and two, they perform better terminally. BB
Tooley? I think I have one of your stocks on my 243AI?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd say that it depends on the distance that one plans on shooting.
Flat base may be superior for short range.
Boat tail is superior at long range. </div></div>
I think it depends on the definition of short and long range what? Paper or gongs is one thing, but ethical hunting is something else. And yes, I much prefer flat base bullets for hunting. One, they are more accurate and two, they perform better terminally. BB
Tooley? I think I have one of your stocks on my 243AI?
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
boltgunlovr, glad you started this thread as I have never even tried loading up FB bullets before, but from a lot of the responses here I have a great interest in trying some out. I'm definitely a big fan of accuracy and will give it a try. Back when I was a teenager I pulled my first bullet out of a factory .243 round and was disapointed that the base was flat. I thought it should be cupped or concave at the base, never even knew about a BT back then. LOL!
Regards
Dan
boltgunlovr, glad you started this thread as I have never even tried loading up FB bullets before, but from a lot of the responses here I have a great interest in trying some out. I'm definitely a big fan of accuracy and will give it a try. Back when I was a teenager I pulled my first bullet out of a factory .243 round and was disapointed that the base was flat. I thought it should be cupped or concave at the base, never even knew about a BT back then. LOL!
Regards
Dan
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
</div></div>
Thank you for chimin' in. As you are aware, so many people are misguided on the issue of choosing what really works. I read an article somewhere that addressed the problem on the bullet integrity due to heat/twist. Any more info would be greatly appreciated.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
</div></div>
Thank you for chimin' in. As you are aware, so many people are misguided on the issue of choosing what really works. I read an article somewhere that addressed the problem on the bullet integrity due to heat/twist. Any more info would be greatly appreciated.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">boltgunlovr, glad you started this thread as I have never even tried loading up FB bullets before, but from a lot of the responses here I have a great interest in trying some out. I'm definitely a big fan of accuracy and will give it a try. Back when I was a teenager I pulled my first bullet out of a factory .243 round and was disapointed that the base was flat. I thought it should be cupped or concave at the base, never even knew about a BT back then. LOL!
Regards
Dan </div></div>
Are you going to try some old school flat base? I sure wish folks would keep an open mind as to using what really works rather than going with the latest greatest thing on the market. Forget what others say and use what works for you. Speaking of 243 Win, I have two and they HATE boattails. Flatbase is their food of choice. Boring old flatbase. Must arch them pretty good for long range, but what the heck, they work every time.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">boltgunlovr, glad you started this thread as I have never even tried loading up FB bullets before, but from a lot of the responses here I have a great interest in trying some out. I'm definitely a big fan of accuracy and will give it a try. Back when I was a teenager I pulled my first bullet out of a factory .243 round and was disapointed that the base was flat. I thought it should be cupped or concave at the base, never even knew about a BT back then. LOL!
Regards
Dan </div></div>
Are you going to try some old school flat base? I sure wish folks would keep an open mind as to using what really works rather than going with the latest greatest thing on the market. Forget what others say and use what works for you. Speaking of 243 Win, I have two and they HATE boattails. Flatbase is their food of choice. Boring old flatbase. Must arch them pretty good for long range, but what the heck, they work every time.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Well, with the .243 I never did get it to shoot the way I wanted, using nosler BT, couldn't even get 1 MOA at 100, but close, I'm looking at the 90 gr Speer Hot-core spitzer, or the Speer TNT 70gr hollow point's.
I've been focusing on my 2 .308's lately which I shoot at local F-TR matches up to 250 yards and they both average 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with the 175 SMK's (I know it's overkill but it is good for long range woodchuck hunting too), and now I'm looking at the 165 Speer Hot-core bullet's.
boltgunluvr, what FB bullet's in .243 work good for you? BTW I do not have deep pockets.
Regards
Dan
Well, with the .243 I never did get it to shoot the way I wanted, using nosler BT, couldn't even get 1 MOA at 100, but close, I'm looking at the 90 gr Speer Hot-core spitzer, or the Speer TNT 70gr hollow point's.
I've been focusing on my 2 .308's lately which I shoot at local F-TR matches up to 250 yards and they both average 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with the 175 SMK's (I know it's overkill but it is good for long range woodchuck hunting too), and now I'm looking at the 165 Speer Hot-core bullet's.
boltgunluvr, what FB bullet's in .243 work good for you? BTW I do not have deep pockets.
Regards
Dan
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I was talking to a guy at Berger Bullets one day about this, while calling about load data for their 52 grain Varmint bullets. His explanation was the the base of the bullet is the key to accuracy until the bullet leaves the barrel. He also stated that it is much easier to make a nearly perfect flat base than it is a boattail or any other style of base.
As I stated above, inside a few hundred yards, I have to agree with FB bullets being superior in accuracy to a similar BT bullet.
I was talking to a guy at Berger Bullets one day about this, while calling about load data for their 52 grain Varmint bullets. His explanation was the the base of the bullet is the key to accuracy until the bullet leaves the barrel. He also stated that it is much easier to make a nearly perfect flat base than it is a boattail or any other style of base.
As I stated above, inside a few hundred yards, I have to agree with FB bullets being superior in accuracy to a similar BT bullet.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Walt Berger told me the exact same thing, many years ago. That's how I go about things and why I use flat base bullets on everything inside of 1000 yards. Maybe, not even then, but I am a believer in VLD bullets for what they are designed for......vastly improved drop. BB
Walt Berger told me the exact same thing, many years ago. That's how I go about things and why I use flat base bullets on everything inside of 1000 yards. Maybe, not even then, but I am a believer in VLD bullets for what they are designed for......vastly improved drop. BB
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I knew an old school gunsmith that passed away a few years back, he absolutely despised BT bullets, his biggest reason was he believed they caused more throat erosion than a flat based bullet.
I knew an old school gunsmith that passed away a few years back, he absolutely despised BT bullets, his biggest reason was he believed they caused more throat erosion than a flat based bullet.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, with the .243 I never did get it to shoot the way I wanted, using nosler BT, couldn't even get 1 MOA at 100, but close, I'm looking at the 90 gr Speer Hot-core spitzer, or the Speer TNT 70gr hollow point's.
I've been focusing on my 2 .308's lately which I shoot at local F-TR matches up to 250 yards and they both average 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with the 175 SMK's (I know it's overkill but it is good for long range woodchuck hunting too), and now I'm looking at the 165 Speer Hot-core bullet's.
boltgunluvr, what FB bullet's in .243 work good for you? BTW I do not have deep pockets.
Regards
Dan
</div></div>
Dan....I don't have deep pockets either, so all the more importance of cutting out the bs on things that simply don't work in the real world we live in. I really have tried several loads of different BTs, but none satisfactory.
Went back to the boring and beloved old Sierra #1540 100gr Spitzer flatbase which have been around for a while. Gotta say the 100gr Rem Core-Lokt have been very impressive for factory ammo, but haven't shot it past 250 yds. Neither of these bullets are high tech or glamorous, but they've worked well for me. Both sub .75 MOA out of factory rifles. How can I gripe about that.
What twist does your 243 Win have??? Mine is Rem 700 factory 1 in 9.125. I have another topic on here that requests info on other 95gr + flatbase recipes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, with the .243 I never did get it to shoot the way I wanted, using nosler BT, couldn't even get 1 MOA at 100, but close, I'm looking at the 90 gr Speer Hot-core spitzer, or the Speer TNT 70gr hollow point's.
I've been focusing on my 2 .308's lately which I shoot at local F-TR matches up to 250 yards and they both average 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with the 175 SMK's (I know it's overkill but it is good for long range woodchuck hunting too), and now I'm looking at the 165 Speer Hot-core bullet's.
boltgunluvr, what FB bullet's in .243 work good for you? BTW I do not have deep pockets.
Regards
Dan
</div></div>
Dan....I don't have deep pockets either, so all the more importance of cutting out the bs on things that simply don't work in the real world we live in. I really have tried several loads of different BTs, but none satisfactory.
Went back to the boring and beloved old Sierra #1540 100gr Spitzer flatbase which have been around for a while. Gotta say the 100gr Rem Core-Lokt have been very impressive for factory ammo, but haven't shot it past 250 yds. Neither of these bullets are high tech or glamorous, but they've worked well for me. Both sub .75 MOA out of factory rifles. How can I gripe about that.
What twist does your 243 Win have??? Mine is Rem 700 factory 1 in 9.125. I have another topic on here that requests info on other 95gr + flatbase recipes.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
It's a factory Savage 110 .243 barrel I'm thinking it is close to 1-10, I will have to measure it again, but right now I'm kind of disabled do to shoulder surgery I had on May 11th. I had an impingement and slight tear of the rotater cuff.
It's a factory Savage 110 .243 barrel I'm thinking it is close to 1-10, I will have to measure it again, but right now I'm kind of disabled do to shoulder surgery I had on May 11th. I had an impingement and slight tear of the rotater cuff.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Rusty...those pictures were taken a loooong time ago, and were from a barrel shortened so that the bullets almost protruded from the muzzle end. As I disremember, they were done at Frankfort arsenal and illustrated in "Hatcher's Notebook". A bullet fired in a normal length barrel will NOT, IMHO, maintain that bulge when it exits the barrel.
Rusty...those pictures were taken a loooong time ago, and were from a barrel shortened so that the bullets almost protruded from the muzzle end. As I disremember, they were done at Frankfort arsenal and illustrated in "Hatcher's Notebook". A bullet fired in a normal length barrel will NOT, IMHO, maintain that bulge when it exits the barrel.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a factory Savage 110 .243 barrel I'm thinking it is close to 1-10, I will have to measure it again, but right now I'm kind of disabled do to shoulder surgery I had on May 11th. I had an impingement and slight tear of the rotater cuff. </div></div>
1 in 10.....bet you'll need to stay with 95 gr or less. Did you have a goal in mind or after overall accuracy??? I'm in the midwest so my 243s serve triple duty when the need arises...deer slayers, long range for coyotes and target fun. Really prefer my 223 for coyotes at a reasonable range.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Daniel308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's a factory Savage 110 .243 barrel I'm thinking it is close to 1-10, I will have to measure it again, but right now I'm kind of disabled do to shoulder surgery I had on May 11th. I had an impingement and slight tear of the rotater cuff. </div></div>
1 in 10.....bet you'll need to stay with 95 gr or less. Did you have a goal in mind or after overall accuracy??? I'm in the midwest so my 243s serve triple duty when the need arises...deer slayers, long range for coyotes and target fun. Really prefer my 223 for coyotes at a reasonable range.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
If I could get it shooting 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards I would be very happy. It's a sporter contour barrel and I use it for whitetail dear out to about 250 yards. I also like it for woodchuck's but with the way it shoots now I'm limited to around 250 yards, which the .308's can take chuck's out to 500.
If I could get it shooting 1/2 inch 3 shot groups at 100 yards I would be very happy. It's a sporter contour barrel and I use it for whitetail dear out to about 250 yards. I also like it for woodchuck's but with the way it shoots now I'm limited to around 250 yards, which the .308's can take chuck's out to 500.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I understand your situation. I really don't have any experience with 1 in 10 twist rates. I do know a guy that his Savage will shoot the same bullet that my 700 hates...the 95gr SMK. I think he's loading hot, but not beyond spec. I'll be listing my remaining 95gr SMK bullets for sale on here too.
I understand your situation. I really don't have any experience with 1 in 10 twist rates. I do know a guy that his Savage will shoot the same bullet that my 700 hates...the 95gr SMK. I think he's loading hot, but not beyond spec. I'll be listing my remaining 95gr SMK bullets for sale on here too.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
What would your guys suggestion be for a FT bullet for a 1 in 10 twist 308 ?
What would your guys suggestion be for a FT bullet for a 1 in 10 twist 308 ?
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
.....FT????
.....FT????
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I had another interesting conversation with a bullet tech this morning. He stated the same thing I've observed....a lot of factory pipes don't like BTs. He was honest enough to say, if a rifle doesn't like other BTs, it probably won't like their BTs. I do appreciate his honesty. Have you tried a 90-95gr FB bullet? Great choices on the market.
I had another interesting conversation with a bullet tech this morning. He stated the same thing I've observed....a lot of factory pipes don't like BTs. He was honest enough to say, if a rifle doesn't like other BTs, it probably won't like their BTs. I do appreciate his honesty. Have you tried a 90-95gr FB bullet? Great choices on the market.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I'm using Barts Headhunters (flatbase) in a 6mm br. I was using Starke 25 gr. flatbase in a 17. Remington that shot great groups as well. Can't seem to find those around anymore, that's too bad.
A dynamite deer load in a 308 carbine that I use is the Speer 130 HP with IMR 3031. Flat base as well.
I'm using Barts Headhunters (flatbase) in a 6mm br. I was using Starke 25 gr. flatbase in a 17. Remington that shot great groups as well. Can't seem to find those around anymore, that's too bad.
A dynamite deer load in a 308 carbine that I use is the Speer 130 HP with IMR 3031. Flat base as well.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Assuming you're a FB bullet fan too????
Assuming you're a FB bullet fan too????
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
I have a DPMS .223 (24" Bbl 1/9 twist, prs stock, Jewell triger), I have tried 52 gr HPBT, 69 gr HPBT, 75 gr HPBT all hand loads and shoot average .6" at 100 yds with most with hornady 75 gr being the most consistent with benchmark and cci 400. I had some 60 gr vmax (FB) and I loaded some for coyote hunting and to my surprise they shoot better than all the match HPBT's usually .3" to .5" at 100 yds (5 rds) 60 gr vmax is the only thing I load now for it. I also have a rem 700 tactical (20" 1/11.25 twist) that shoots 110 gr Sierra HP varminters very well (.4"/100yds)average.
I have a DPMS .223 (24" Bbl 1/9 twist, prs stock, Jewell triger), I have tried 52 gr HPBT, 69 gr HPBT, 75 gr HPBT all hand loads and shoot average .6" at 100 yds with most with hornady 75 gr being the most consistent with benchmark and cci 400. I had some 60 gr vmax (FB) and I loaded some for coyote hunting and to my surprise they shoot better than all the match HPBT's usually .3" to .5" at 100 yds (5 rds) 60 gr vmax is the only thing I load now for it. I also have a rem 700 tactical (20" 1/11.25 twist) that shoots 110 gr Sierra HP varminters very well (.4"/100yds)average.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
</div></div>
Hey Dave!
I know you and the guys in your neck of the woods are on the leading edge of 1000 yard accuracy.
So your combination is more accurate that a 6mmbr/105 Berger?
Holy shee-It if so!
I will try the 108 when I get a chance.
What about weather conditions?
How does the bullet shoot in switching weather compared to the standard BT bullet?
Thanks!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
</div></div>
Hey Dave!
I know you and the guys in your neck of the woods are on the leading edge of 1000 yard accuracy.
So your combination is more accurate that a 6mmbr/105 Berger?
Holy shee-It if so!
I will try the 108 when I get a chance.
What about weather conditions?
How does the bullet shoot in switching weather compared to the standard BT bullet?
Thanks!
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JMT38S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a DPMS .223 (24" Bbl 1/9 twist, prs stock, Jewell triger), I have tried 52 gr HPBT, 69 gr HPBT, 75 gr HPBT all hand loads and shoot average .6" at 100 yds with most with hornady 75 gr being the most consistent with benchmark and cci 400. I had some 60 gr vmax (FB) and I loaded some for coyote hunting and to my surprise they shoot better than all the match HPBT's usually .3" to .5" at 100 yds (5 rds) 60 gr vmax is the only thing I load now for it. I also have a rem 700 tactical (20" 1/11.25 twist) that shoots 110 gr Sierra HP varminters very well (.4"/100yds)average. </div></div>
Thanks for chiming in. My rem 700 SPS V, 223 Rem, 1 in 12 loves the 53gr SMK FB. And I discovered I can load the 55gr SPT FB with the same powder charge as the 53gr and still get kickass accuracy. I tried the 52gr SMK HPBT and it was a joke. Would not shoot straight. I do believe there are many shooters that are not giving FB bullets a fair shot. They're missing out. I've been considering trying a 60-65gr FB bullets too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JMT38S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a DPMS .223 (24" Bbl 1/9 twist, prs stock, Jewell triger), I have tried 52 gr HPBT, 69 gr HPBT, 75 gr HPBT all hand loads and shoot average .6" at 100 yds with most with hornady 75 gr being the most consistent with benchmark and cci 400. I had some 60 gr vmax (FB) and I loaded some for coyote hunting and to my surprise they shoot better than all the match HPBT's usually .3" to .5" at 100 yds (5 rds) 60 gr vmax is the only thing I load now for it. I also have a rem 700 tactical (20" 1/11.25 twist) that shoots 110 gr Sierra HP varminters very well (.4"/100yds)average. </div></div>
Thanks for chiming in. My rem 700 SPS V, 223 Rem, 1 in 12 loves the 53gr SMK FB. And I discovered I can load the 55gr SPT FB with the same powder charge as the 53gr and still get kickass accuracy. I tried the 52gr SMK HPBT and it was a joke. Would not shoot straight. I do believe there are many shooters that are not giving FB bullets a fair shot. They're missing out. I've been considering trying a 60-65gr FB bullets too.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
</div></div>
Nice to hear from such a prominent member of the shooting community. Thanks for chiming in Dave! Care to share details about your load and rig that you were running? Those are some pretty respectable numbers Mr. Tooley. It's a privilege having your advice and experience to listen to!
I'm kind of taken with Berger 140gr VLD's for my 260 AI but are there any Flat Base bullets in 6.5mm that any of you would recommend? Thanks again!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was the first to use FB bullets in 1K comp. A 187 Gr. BIB They were and still are the most accurate bullet I have ever shot at that distance. I never had any issues the base mushrooming. I pushed them over 3150 FPS and know guys who approached 3300 FPS. They ran into issues with bullets coming apart from heat and high RPM's.
</div></div>
Nice to hear from such a prominent member of the shooting community. Thanks for chiming in Dave! Care to share details about your load and rig that you were running? Those are some pretty respectable numbers Mr. Tooley. It's a privilege having your advice and experience to listen to!
I'm kind of taken with Berger 140gr VLD's for my 260 AI but are there any Flat Base bullets in 6.5mm that any of you would recommend? Thanks again!
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
Bullet choice depends on the game. Practical long range rifle shooting is about paying attention to what matters, and trading it off against what doesn't matter. I'll stick with boat tails because BC and bullet design is more important to me than trying to get the best accuracy on paper at a known distance. That's why I shoot bullets that don't fly very well, and spin them very fast.
Bullet choice depends on the game. Practical long range rifle shooting is about paying attention to what matters, and trading it off against what doesn't matter. I'll stick with boat tails because BC and bullet design is more important to me than trying to get the best accuracy on paper at a known distance. That's why I shoot bullets that don't fly very well, and spin them very fast.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
If you shoot a 5moa group at 1000yds with both bt and fb bullets on a clear windless day, would it not be smart to use the bullet with the highest bc? Then in a windy day you would be more likely to shoot closer groups?
If you shoot a 5moa group at 1000yds with both bt and fb bullets on a clear windless day, would it not be smart to use the bullet with the highest bc? Then in a windy day you would be more likely to shoot closer groups?
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kolkio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't argue with the rifle. </div></div>
I've seen/shot a Winchester in 30.06 that absolutely "like" flat based bullets vs. boat tails. We tried multiple powders, primers and bullets (styles and weights) and that sucker just loved Sierra 180 grain flat based bullets. Two bullets tore a hole and one was almost touching the hole the first two made. It would do that group after group. A M70 featherweight, too. Dime sized 3 shot groups at 100 yds.
Work with it and the rifle will tell you what it "likes" best.
Oh yeah, I've always preferred group size over velocity, every day.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kolkio</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't argue with the rifle. </div></div>
I've seen/shot a Winchester in 30.06 that absolutely "like" flat based bullets vs. boat tails. We tried multiple powders, primers and bullets (styles and weights) and that sucker just loved Sierra 180 grain flat based bullets. Two bullets tore a hole and one was almost touching the hole the first two made. It would do that group after group. A M70 featherweight, too. Dime sized 3 shot groups at 100 yds.
Work with it and the rifle will tell you what it "likes" best.
Oh yeah, I've always preferred group size over velocity, every day.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mickey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you shoot a 5moa group at 1000yds with both bt and fb bullets on a clear windless day, would it not be smart to use the bullet with the highest bc? Then in a windy day you would be more likely to shoot closer groups? </div></div> You'll never see a windless day, not out to a 1000y anyways. So if you had a FB load that shot the same group as a BT load at 1000y, knowing the BT round will have a higher BC , you'd have to assume the FB load is more accurate since it had a lower BC and still shot the same as the BT load.
but your right, the higher BC will be more ideal for windy conditions.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mickey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you shoot a 5moa group at 1000yds with both bt and fb bullets on a clear windless day, would it not be smart to use the bullet with the highest bc? Then in a windy day you would be more likely to shoot closer groups? </div></div> You'll never see a windless day, not out to a 1000y anyways. So if you had a FB load that shot the same group as a BT load at 1000y, knowing the BT round will have a higher BC , you'd have to assume the FB load is more accurate since it had a lower BC and still shot the same as the BT load.
but your right, the higher BC will be more ideal for windy conditions.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mickey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you shoot a 5moa group at 1000yds with both bt and fb bullets on a clear windless day, would it not be smart to use the bullet with the highest bc? Then in a windy day you would be more likely to shoot closer groups? </div></div>
I think the point Dave Tooley was trying to make(he has not popped back in here yet) is despite a lesser BC the trick flat base bullets shot better.
If BC were everything the 338 Lapua would win every match....think about it.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mickey D</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you shoot a 5moa group at 1000yds with both bt and fb bullets on a clear windless day, would it not be smart to use the bullet with the highest bc? Then in a windy day you would be more likely to shoot closer groups? </div></div>
I think the point Dave Tooley was trying to make(he has not popped back in here yet) is despite a lesser BC the trick flat base bullets shot better.
If BC were everything the 338 Lapua would win every match....think about it.
Re: Boattail....not always the best!
One of the reasons flat based bullets have the ability to shoot more accurately within a certain distance is the fact that they can be stabilized with a slower twist rate since FB bullets are shorter. The slower you spin a bullet the less the bullets imperfections will result in a loss of accuracy. As bullets become LESS flawed do to modern manufacturing techniques the advantage of shooting a FB bullet with a slower twist is becoming less and less. Still, a FB bullet will always be easier to produce with LESS imperfections than a BT bullet because it is a simpler design. Muzzle blast is also more detrimental to BT bullets. If you have Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting Brian Litz explains this (much better than I can) on page 144 and 255.
Just because a bullet has a BT doesn't mean that it has the proper angle for one. Good examples of these would be the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets in 308 which have BTs at 14-14.4 degree angles. Some of the Amax are pretty bad as well in 308. It doesn't mean that they can't be very accurate. It just means that the BT on some bullets do more to entice people to buy them that would never buy a FB bullet than they do to add aerodynamics to a bullet. Although Bryan Litz does not single out any bullets as I just did he does explain proper (and improper) BT angles on page 254 and reading it will end a great deal on conjecture about this for someone that is interested in it(like me).
I don't use flat base bullets myself as the twist rate in my rifle is too fast for the proper spin. If you are overtwisting a bullet because it is too short for your twist you may be defeating the purpose on some level. In order to have the proper twist rate for flat based bullets you would be severely limiting the range of bullets you could stabilize in that rifle. For a professional to have a slow twist for a flat base bullet is completely reasonable. It doesn't work for me as want to be able to shoot a wide variety of bullets. I also don't know if the accuracy advantages of a flat based bullet would be noticeable to me at my current skill level. If someone is shooting at a very high level then giving quality flat based bullets a try with an appropriate twist might be worthwhile.
One of the reasons flat based bullets have the ability to shoot more accurately within a certain distance is the fact that they can be stabilized with a slower twist rate since FB bullets are shorter. The slower you spin a bullet the less the bullets imperfections will result in a loss of accuracy. As bullets become LESS flawed do to modern manufacturing techniques the advantage of shooting a FB bullet with a slower twist is becoming less and less. Still, a FB bullet will always be easier to produce with LESS imperfections than a BT bullet because it is a simpler design. Muzzle blast is also more detrimental to BT bullets. If you have Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting Brian Litz explains this (much better than I can) on page 144 and 255.
Just because a bullet has a BT doesn't mean that it has the proper angle for one. Good examples of these would be the Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets in 308 which have BTs at 14-14.4 degree angles. Some of the Amax are pretty bad as well in 308. It doesn't mean that they can't be very accurate. It just means that the BT on some bullets do more to entice people to buy them that would never buy a FB bullet than they do to add aerodynamics to a bullet. Although Bryan Litz does not single out any bullets as I just did he does explain proper (and improper) BT angles on page 254 and reading it will end a great deal on conjecture about this for someone that is interested in it(like me).
I don't use flat base bullets myself as the twist rate in my rifle is too fast for the proper spin. If you are overtwisting a bullet because it is too short for your twist you may be defeating the purpose on some level. In order to have the proper twist rate for flat based bullets you would be severely limiting the range of bullets you could stabilize in that rifle. For a professional to have a slow twist for a flat base bullet is completely reasonable. It doesn't work for me as want to be able to shoot a wide variety of bullets. I also don't know if the accuracy advantages of a flat based bullet would be noticeable to me at my current skill level. If someone is shooting at a very high level then giving quality flat based bullets a try with an appropriate twist might be worthwhile.
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