Advanced Marksmanship Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

With a proper driver, who understands how to effectively shoot a gas gun, it will absolutely win. I have seen it, best times are ways set by gas guns. Martin (ssgp2) above can attest to that, the closest time to his score is easily 4 seconds behind for a top notch bolt gun shooter.

problem is, people think all they have to do pull the trigger, with very little understand how to treat a gas gun like a precision rifle. They feel because they shoot their AR15 inside 100 yards and hit something they can do the same outside 100, then blame the accuracy deficiencies on the rifle when they can't. just because you can shoot a bolt gun well doesn't mean you can handle an AR type rifle, especially when you get past the 5.56. The weight of the moving parts directly affects the shooters ability to operate the rifle in an effective manner.

Given the same objective, a well built and well driven gas gun has a clear advantage -- unfortunately for most its an advantage never realized due to poor fundamentals.

 

[ChefEd]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Tag for good intel.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

In the past, from my days in the Army, I felt the AR15/M16 was the most accurate battle rifle I've ever seen. Most rifles easily holding 2-3 MOA. Which is a pretty solid hit on a target at 300m. With a scope they could hold 1-1.5 MOA Which is good...but not that good. Still it enhances the AR platform capability to make consistent accurate hits on body targets to 600m.

It wasn't until maybe ten years ago that I relooked at just exactly how accurate they can be. A local shop was selling AR's and they had several targets up from different local competitions and shooters that were in the 1/2" to 1/4" size. For five shot groups. A trip to the range with one of these rifles was proof enough for me that they could be made way more accurate than what I initially assumed. So I bought one. I've shot numerous ten shot rapid fire groups in the sub 1" category with mine. So I know they are up to snuff in the accuracy department. And remember the targets in Stang shooting are about 25cmx30cm (10"x12"). So the accuracy of the AR is well within the needs to compete in this game.

Now, looking at the Stang shooting, I feel that an accurate AR will easily beat a bolt gun. What I'd really like to see is the AR used to it's full design potential. Firing with all thirty round magazines. Not five rounds in a twenty or thirty round mag. I would assume a good shooter could make the necessary hits and fire around one shot per second. That would be interesting to see.

 

[NukeMMC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

OK, in similar circumstances as what was in the video.....
I would put David Tubb, Dennis DeMille or for that matter, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">ANY</span></span> Master or High Master classified NRA highpower bolt rifle shooter with a T2K or his preferred bolt rifle up against ANY gasgunner with an as-issued M16A2, M14, M1, FAL, G3, etc. main battle rifle.
I shot highpower for 20+ years, am Distinguished and have seen more gasgunner asses kicked on the 300 yard rapids by a proficient bolt-gunner than I could ever hope to count......mine included.

That is the comparison between our US competitions and what was in the video.

Now to stretch that into a more equitable equipment/talent comparison.....go to a CMP match or Camp Perry Highpower and watch the MUCH more consistent high scores come up on the 300 rapids from folks shooting match rifles than (NM modified) service rifles. Now there is no distinction between gas or bolt on a match rifle, but the Tubb rifles are an awesome platform for the sustained fire portion of the National Match course.

Just look at the 2009 Marine Corps Cup match results.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I your gasser is not returning to target after recoil while using a bipod...you are not driving it correctly, period.

I could watch holes appear in paper targets at 100 yards with my previous DPMS based 308.

There is no question. A well driven precision AR is going to run faster than an equally well driven precision bolt gun.

It is all about the shooter. I know that a lot of bolt throwers could beat me on an AR, but I know a lot of gas drivers can whoop me on a bolt.

 

[NukeMMC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
There is no question. A well driven precision AR is going to run faster than an equally well driven precision bolt gun.

It is all about the shooter. I know that a lot of bolt throwers could beat me on an AR, but I know a lot of gas drivers can whoop me on a bolt. </div></div>

The point to the competition is not which is faster, but which will produce more hits on a target in a given time. That is a combination of speed and accuracy. A semi-auto will always put more rounds downrange in a given time period than a bolt rifle, that is an undeniable FACT. Which will produce more hits is the tantamount point to the exercise. I guarantee my White Oak NM AR, if I slung in and support my non-trigger hand on a sandbag, I would produce more hits than 1 per second. I would consistently produce sub-moa groups at 300 shooting like that. Throw a good scope on top with time to get sight dope, and it's "game on". I would take the challenge from ANYONE with a bolt gun. Give me an off-the-rack M16A2...and I'll keep my mouth shut and watch someone else's butt get schooled. Give me a Mk11 or Mk12 and some time to get good sight dope...and it's time to play again. Quality of equipment is a HUGE equalizer...but familiarity with the equipment and skill are the true tests.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

NukeMMC has the right idea that I have been getting at. You can toss rounds all day long with a autoshucker, but it doesnt matter if you dont hit sheet with it! I have, more than a few times, cleaned house on the 300 yard line during a match against some of the best gasgunners in the world (AMU, USMC team, etc) but me and my little stickshifter not only shot just as fast, but also shot a tighter group in the X ring. And, btw Nuke, it was with a T2k, and yes, I am a HM.

At least in the type of competition I do, the gasgun doesnt give you an advantage. I would also be willing to bet I could stick a scope on my T2k (while I rarely do it, you can mount one on there) give the autoshuckers a run for their money on some steel or something like that I think. Would certainly be fun to try it. Would just have to figure out how to rig up a bipod on it.

But, as LL stated, the driver is the biggest variable, that i totally agree with.

John

 

[NukeMMC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NukeMMC has the right idea that I have been getting at. You can toss rounds all day long with a autoshucker, but it doesnt matter if you dont hit sheet with it! I have, more than a few times, cleaned house on the 300 yard line during a match against some of the best gasgunners in the world (AMU, USMC team, etc) but me and my little stickshifter not only shot just as fast, but also shot a tighter group in the X ring. And, btw Nuke, it was with a T2k, and yes, I am a HM.

At least in the type of competition I do, the gasgun doesnt give you an advantage. I would also be willing to bet I could stick a scope on my T2k (while I rarely do it, you can mount one on there) give the autoshuckers a run for their money on some steel or something like that I think. Would certainly be fun to try it. Would just have to figure out how to rig up a bipod on it.

But, as LL stated, the driver is the biggest variable, that i totally agree with.

John
</div></div>

Anyone who has competed in similar circumstances where you deliver a certain # of shots in a given time period, especially with a required reload (adds to the test of a rifleman's proficiency) and they will KNOW the same as Mudcat and I....the bolt will win. The gas-gun will be able to put those rounds down there quicker, but the bolt gun will put them where they belong much more consistently......and that's the name of the game.

And yes, an extremely talented gasgunner with "Ol' Reliable" will be able to kick the crap out of the less experienced boltgunner. The overriding trump card is always the "Nut behind the Butt" and how well he knows his gear.

BTW Mudcat....just a "lowly" MA here...Legged out with an M14 and shot my first highpower match with an M1 shooting M2 ball.....just like about 200,000 others in the mid-80s.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone who has competed in similar circumstances where you deliver a certain # of shots in a given time period, especially with a required reload (adds to the test of a rifleman's proficiency) and they will KNOW the same as Mudcat and I....the bolt will win. The gas-gun will be able to put those rounds down there quicker, but the bolt gun will put them where they belong much more consistently......and that's the name of the game.</div></div>

This is only because boltguns have a longer history of competing in this fashion. If people knew how to shoot a gas gun better, they would have more faith in the system, thus endeavor to excel with the gas gun. Instead the gas gunner is victim of his own failings, thus returns to "PRACTICE" with a bolt gun, giving the illusion they are better. I'm not saying better across the course, I am saying better for something like a 300m rapid segment.

Time and time again, we see people are victim of not executing the proper fundamentals and the gas gun will exploit the shooters failings -- there is no arguing the fact a gas gun is harder to drive correctly, but doing so will be faster back on target and with a high dollar competition rifle should be able to hang within acceptable accuracy standards, especially at 300m.

If you drive it right, it doesn't move from the target, you can follow up extremely fast, if you are off the target, that is a "Shooter" issue and not a rifle issue. So you have to be objective about what is actually taking place.

Now, you want to talk across the course, out to 1000, or even 600 the bolt gun will have the accuracy advantages, it has less moving parts, is more forgiving to the shooter... but in rapid fashion, like the video, a gas gun should be able to excel, there is absolutely no reason it couldn't.

It's just like people who crow about the M14, without knowing the M16 laid waste to any record held by the M14 in short order.

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Didn't have the rounds or spare mags with me to demonstrate but this shows the accuracy potential of a well driven gas gun... a factory gasser at that with factory ammo.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

First, I would have to say there are some differences that may make a difference. Maybe in favor of the bolt gunners but here goes:

1. You can't use a scope- most gas gunners have spent enough time behind either standard or NM type sights enough though that shouldn't be a major advantage. When I shot my 1" rapid fire groups they were with a scope.
2. No bipods. Custom slings okay. Match sling users w/AR's should not be hindered by that. Anyhow, it adds fatigue to the equation.
3. This competition has a fixed target, hit or miss, of about 10"x12". Bolt gunners would have the advantage in High Power where the scoring rings are smaller than Stang, and accuracy counts more. In High Power there is a time limit but not nearly as fast as the time limit that Stang shooting gives. You also have a finite number of rounds to shoot within the time. Stay within the time, which is fairly generous, and you can concentrate on accuracy.

Stang has a much tighter time limit. As many rounds as you can shoot in that time. And, accuracy standards relaxed. The faster working gun really has the advantage here. It pretty much has to hold 3 MOA accuracy. From a good position that's pretty doable.

Edit:

Why don't we each try it at our local ranges and time ourselves to see where we come in at. No way to tell without trying it.

Rules:

Oval black target of 25cm x30cm ( or 10"x12"), placed 240m-300m. For expediency you can shoot 300 yds if thats the longest range you have. If you only have a 100 yd. range reduce target by one-third.

prone, open sights, pre-zeroed, rifle of choice, FULL MAG, no matter what you have.

Hits counted for 25 seconds of shooting unlimited number of rounds.

Try it. See where you come out. I plan on being able to attempt it on Saturday.

 

[Austan]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

^^ And you just know LL puts the camera where the brass launches out for the KOOL factor!

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

So much for the test. We got stuck going to the range. Spent two hours shoveling to get back out. Try again on Monday...

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I'm surprised no one's brought up Rattle Battle. The Service Rifle Match where shooters are dumping accurate rounds prone from 600yds, then 500 then 300yds.

I'm looking for a good video for ya'll.

If you want to compare Highpower Bolt gunners vs Gas gunners, didn't Bernosky come back to kick butt and take names with a gas gun the last 3 years?

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

OK before the Autos were banned here we had hardly any high end AR's to use so we had a few guys with Delta H Bars and the rest of us ran AR's for IPSC, their was no bolt gun that could compete to 300 yards for long range accurate slow fire the bolt gun would win hands down but for rapid fire shooting 300 yards and closer no bolt gunner would come close. so the standard AR15 colt with the factory 12 twist chrome bore we would work the trigger fit an accu wedge stick the upper in the mill and mill the carry handle off then screw a weaver base to the upper then to finish of we would free float them and they would all run from 1/4 to 1/2 moa shooters amasing from standard AR's. also fitted muzzle breaks. this was before the availability of flat to recievers and the rifles would shoot better than the H Bar's back to 300 yards we used 52gr Sierra MAtchKings nothing special. in the long range events i used my SSG PII 308 and i was well in front but for rapid fire shooting and shots on target i could never shoot as fast as a worked AR. even a standard AR with a 9 power schoe and a good shooter would shoot the targets in a much faster time and when you start to include movement into the equasion the marlin camp carbines in 9mm were almost unbetable with a big mag and dot but a 16" barreled AR was pretty close on the money aswell.

Now that their are AR10's in 243's and other performance calibres set up with a free floated barrel and tuned for rapid fire shots on target to 1000 yards i am sure i could get the AR to have more hits with just as tight groups to a bolt gun every shot with a bolt gun you have to move further out of position to cycle the action with a good AR based rifle you are straight back ontop the target ready to fire the shot when the rifle finishes cycling.

 

[TorF]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

The difference between gas guns and bolt rifles depend how a stage is run. Let's say a stage has 5 2moa plates@300m and 5 2moa plates@500m.(the range is not very important, targets are 2moa). Shoot 5shots@300m, reload, shoot 5shots@500m as fast as you can. Scoped rifle must weigh less than 5kg with scope.

Shooting prone with bipod, gasguns wins without question.

Shoot the same stage standing and 99.9% of skilled shooters will shoot better with a boltgun using the same scope on both rifles. The main reason for this is locktime. The best boltguns have less than 2ms locktime vs 6ms+ for a gasgun. Design a gasgun for electronic primers, 0 locktime, and gasguns will always win..

What puzzels me with tactical longrange shooting is the dependancy of bipods. I live in snowy Norway. My old instructor always said "what do you do when snowdepth is deeper than the hight of the bipods?".

The ability to hit a target of oportunity with quick shot, usually without any support, at long range is a lost art.

Most tactical shooter can easily test their own basic skills at the local NRA 500m silhouette range. 25 out of 40 possible hits with the favourite tactical rig should be a minimum score. The score can seem high but most tactical rigs are "free rifles" out of spec for silhouette.

 

[SFree]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Bernosky went back to a bolt gun...

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

What Frank said.

It can be done, I've shot a bolt in rapid fire at 200 and 300 and shot with the service rifle shooters - but I did not stay with it to get past Master (NRA Ranking anyway).

Dennis Demille did it a few years ago, perfect score...

There was no bipod used in this type of shooting either - This is all sling supported only.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Frank said.

It can be done, I've shot a bolt in rapid fire at 200 and 300 and shot with the service rifle shooters - but I did not stay with it to get past Master (NRA Ranking anyway).

Dennis Demille did it a few years ago, perfect score...

There was no bipod used in this type of shooting either - This is all sling supported only.

</div></div>

Nice pic! But, my point earlier was this ype of shooting is shooting a finite number of rounds within a given time. Not an unlimited number of rounds in a finite time, and less accuracy requirements. As noted in that post, what I read on Stang shooting is approximately 3x4 MOA targets. Not one MOA for X's 2 MOA for 10's and 4 MOA for 9's. Any hit is like a 10X. That tells me the faster working gun that is accurate enough, not the more accurate gun (like highpower lends itself to) is going to win.

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bernosky went back to a bolt gun...</div></div>
...doesn't change what he did with a gasgun versus the boltguns, including the T2K's. 2007 was in bad conditions too.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

FYI, Bernosky did shoot a gas gun this year at Perry. He was testing out the CSR1 but ended up shooting the AR platform at Perry again this year. Of course, had Sherri not crossfired one sitting, she would have won the whole thing by several points....but, when you put a 10 on the wrong target, its over.

John

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

...and if Carl did not get crap in his rear sight he would have won a 3rd straight Championship with his AR.

"did" beats "woulda, shoulda, coulda..." every time. Great shooting by Norm. A deserving champion!

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Here's some NTIT (Rattle Battle) video. AR's shooting 40 rounds in a 50 second time limit (they actually finish in about 45 in the video), 600yards.
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I've heard that in some years, the AMU is shooting ALL of their rounds at 600 yards, that means 384 rounds for 6 shooters in 50 seconds. Better than 1 rounds per second.

While there are significant differences in the type of shooting (different target, starting with butt off shoulder, smaller magazine etc.) extrapolating that cadence to a 25 second window would give 32 rounds. With an AMU shooter, you'd be getting a high percentage of hits.

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Since this topic has been discussed before...;
Old Stang shooting thread

 

[DMS]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

No, they don't shoot all their rounds @600. They have been shooting everything between 600 and 500 which I don't understand. The highest possible score requires squaring the targets @500.

Maybe Emil will see this and post.

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

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Outside observers narrative said all their rounds. I'd heard others say the same...but maybe "a certain malevolent entity" will see this and post too...

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Lock time is a McGuffin ... as if 4ms is going to matter.

We can prove as this we see it with movers, one shooter hits 7 out of 10 using a 1 Mil lead and another shooter hits 7 out of 10 using a 2 mil lead. Why because "lock time" is not inside the rifle but inside the shooter. The time it takes from the decision making process to the actual firing of the rifle... changing a pin, spring or anything else to effect the internal lock time is simply a distraction, and when people start bearing down into milliseconds to explain differences like seen in the Stang video, you know they are grasping at straws.

As well, we only have snow in most cases about 3 months out of the year and the majority of people who shoot during that time do so from an alternate position other than prone because chances are they hunting... the prone can be very limiting with a bipod, but no worse than with a sling as it takes much longer to set the position correctly. Our drills from standing to prone, to actually shooting the target go to 6 seconds, no slung individual is going to get into a sling or position that fast from the standing unless they are 100% into the sling and prepared, which won't always be the case in a tactical engagement.

Its where some of the disconnect from specific competition scenarios fall apart in field conditions, and why F Class have sighters, prep times, and a relaxed shooting environment. They are much more accurate than the tactical shooter, but they also have purpose built rifles, 3 point rests, specially made rear bags to match the front rest, etc... so while fast rifle with a 30" barrels is a proven winner at 1000 yards, it's far from practical to the tactical shooter.

 

[J.Boyette]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
just because you can shoot a bolt gun well doesn't mean you can handle an AR type rifle, especially when you get past the 5.56. The weight of the moving parts directly affects the shooters ability to operate the rifle in an effective manner.

Given the same objective, a well built and well driven gas gun has a clear advantage -- unfortunately for most its an advantage never realized due to poor fundamentals. </div></div>

This is very true.

When I went from my GAP 700 to the DPMS .308LR I could see that I had lost my foundation on running a gas gun that I did have a wile ago.

It took me about a day and a half of dry fire and focusing on the basics that I did skim over with the bolt gun.

now the DPMS .308LR feels and runs like it should, wile I control her.

John

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

...gotta be fair...the USMC shoots hard Rattle Battle too!<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FGVyJuxGBfc&feature=PlayList&p=9732E4544D85151D&index=1"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FGVyJuxGBfc&feature=PlayList&p=9732E4544D85151D&index=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[M700]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Had to admit, I was surprised when I turned to a bolt gun in NRA highpower competition, that I not only posted better scores than my AR-15 shooting buddies, but that I finished the rapid fire stages ahead of most of them. Perhaps I was just pushing, because I was afraid of not making the time.

From years of shooting both, I know I can't keep up with the gas gun, but it is surprising how fast & accurate a good bolt gunner can be. I learned from some mighty fine highpower shooters. Arctic Light knows 'em too.

Regards, Guy

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

You guys seem to miss the point... in our rapid stage, a good boltgunner can hit 5 targets (2MOA) at 600 yards in about 15 seconds, some do it in about 12 to 13 seconds... with a bolt gun.

So, you have to ask, do you need to shoot it faster than that ?

Speed is fine, but accuracy is final, so if you can successfully hit all your shots in 13 seconds and a gas gunner comes over and does it in 8 seconds, are you really at a disadvantage when the time limit is 20 seconds ?

As well, it was clear in the Stang video, the gassers shot more but hit less, so speed has to be tied to accuracy otherwise, any fool can shoot fast, the point is too hit as well.

There are specific benefits to a gas gun, which I don't think competition, particularly hight power, is not there to exploit. so using a gasser in a bolt gun match is always going to put you behind the curve, because the time is generous enough for most boltgunners to finish in, and the accuracy necessary across the course is probably more than 90% of what a normal operator can handle with a gasser. If 75% of the match was about hitting targets under time that a bolt gun couldn't finish in, you would bet your bottom dollar people would be moving to a gasser... but because its not that way, why bother putting yourself at an across the course disadvantage.

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

In seems the context originally laid out by the OP is "Stang". The stage shown in the beginning seems to be "number of hits in a fixed time of 25 seconds"... I don't speak Norweigen, and don't know the exact course of fire in "stang", but it appears that number of hits is not capped for the time limit.

I would contend a good Rattle Battle shooter would give them more than a run for their money <span style="font-style: italic">in that stage</span>(at 32 rounds in 25 seconds, and 75% hits, that's 24 points!) Why aren't they using AR's then? Great accuracy, better triggers, lower recoil? Probably because the G3 is more widely available and/or the issue battle rifle of Norway.

There is a course of fire with a precision timed fire, contended on the International stage...CISM. But they're all shooting pretty well standardized bolt guns. The Norway kicked butt in the last results I could find. US was third with Mr Johnson's friend Eric U, leading the way.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chris F</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...and if Carl did not get crap in his rear sight he would have won a 3rd straight Championship with his AR.

"did" beats "woulda, shoulda, coulda..." every time. Great shooting by Norm. A deserving champion! </div></div>

I dont disagree with that! But, my point was about the bolt gun still being tough to beat. And, didnt Norm use his T2k this year too?

John

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lock time is a McGuffin ... as if 4ms is going to matter.

</div></div>

You dont shoot much offhand, do ya?

John

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lock time is a McGuffin ... as if 4ms is going to matter.

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You dont shoot much offhand, do ya?

John
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You don't understand the human body very well do you?

I don't shoot offhand much, and when I do, I snap it up because I am not foolish enough to thing I am designed to hold my 15# rifle up and shoot it... but I shoot enough of it to know that my reaction time and your reaction time is different, so much so it goes beyond 4ms.

But i was USMC taught and qualified expert enough to know I can do it with a stock M16A2.... there was no issue with lock time between one shooter to the next, there was only proper fundamentals.

Lock time is one of those excuses people use to justify not hitting their target... but lock time is inside your head. Its the time it takes for you to make the decision to shoot and the time it actually takes to press the trigger. If you are slow, and I am fast, not amount of adjustment is going to fix the decision making process in our heads but practice... adding a lighter pin or heavier spring isn't going to fix your internal lock time over night and make you shoot better the next day.

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I dont disagree with that! But, my point was about the bolt gun still being tough to beat. And, didnt Norm use his T2k this year too?</div></div>
I'm glad you're giving the gas guns a bit more of their due!
The bolt gun is still tough to beat, but so is a gas gun, especially when you put on better sights, a longer barrel, a better fitting stock etc.

Yes, I believe Norm shot his T2k Bolt gun...same as he did in 2008 and 2007, when Carl beat him with his AR gas gun!

I tend to agree with Lowlight on the lock-time being a significant factor. I've watched enough traces on the SCATT, NOPTEL, RIKA and KURT with good standing shooters. From that I've come to the belief that at the higher levels, folks holds are well within the 10 or X rings. It's the shot execution that's the biggest difference. Maybe you'll lose a few in a season that would have been scratch 10's without a couple of milisecond delays...but the better shooters don't have as many of those. I think the main benefit of the faster locktime is primarily on the shooters psyche.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lock time is a McGuffin ... as if 4ms is going to matter.

</div></div>

You dont shoot much offhand, do ya?

John
</div></div>

You don't understand the human body very well do you?

I don't shoot offhand much, and when I do, I snap it up because I am not foolish enough to thing I am designed to hold my 15# rifle up and shoot it... but I shoot enough of it to know that my reaction time and your reaction time is different, so much so it goes beyond 4ms.
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Actually, I think I do...or at least well enough to do what I have done already in the shooting world and for what I hope to do in the future.

As for shooting offhand, I would have thought the Corp would have taught you enough to know that you CAN shoot a 15 pound rifle offhand and actually do pretty well with it...or at least some can..with practice.

John

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Gas guns are just fine, but unless you NEED the autoloading feature, the bolt gun is a better choice for XTC use and certainly for LR or prone use. For "sniper" stuff, I wouldnt know, as thats not my game. Trust me, I have the gas guns, both in 223 and 6PDK but I have yet to shoot better scores with them so I have stuck with the T2k, mainly as I dont need the "speed" of the autoloader. I would rather have the better accuracy, better trigger and with the T2k, just a better set up...like the removable stock (there is nothing better than swapping stocks rather than trying to find the different stock settings between stages of fire).

I have a Rika and can tell you that faster lock time will save you a point here and there. And when you are trying to shoot at the 99% or better level, that can make or break you. Otherwise, for most, I would agree, its a moot point. For prone shooting, it probably is too.

But, what the heck do I know about this topic......

John

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mudcat-NC</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lock time is a McGuffin ... as if 4ms is going to matter.

</div></div>

You dont shoot much offhand, do ya?

John
</div></div>

You don't understand the human body very well do you?

I don't shoot offhand much, and when I do, I snap it up because I am not foolish enough to thing I am designed to hold my 15# rifle up and shoot it... but I shoot enough of it to know that my reaction time and your reaction time is different, so much so it goes beyond 4ms.
</div></div>

Actually, I think I do...or at least well enough to do what I have done already in the shooting world and for what I hope to do in the future.

As for shooting offhand, I would have thought the Corp would have taught you enough to know that you CAN shoot a 15 pound rifle offhand and actually do pretty well with it...or at least some can..with practice.

John
</div></div>

I can see you can't go to the meat of the matter, but instead chose to side step it,

I can shoot a 15# rifle offhand, but feel it is a silly idea to do so except in "oh shit" snap situations, trying to shoot offhand shot after is not only not practical, it's not worth it tactically... But we do it because its a legacy skill. If you are moving from point a to point b and a target presents itself you need to be able to rapidly engage the target successfully, which in most cases is very close up... time should afford you opportunities, and has nothing do with with long distance application of the precision rifle. Now if you want to compete that way, have at it.

Still, no where in there is a weapons' lock time going to save your ass. How fast "you" can react will... the idea that a person who doesn't shoot offhand well can some how be "fixed' by increasing the lock time 4ms isn't happening, unless they go out to the range everyday and practice... then you have to ask yourself, was it the lock time or the practice.

I have no clue what you have done "in the shooting world" and frankly, I don't care... the idea that this competition skill and a 4ms lock time is going to translate to anything but that specific mindset is silly. If it worked for you great, but I bet what you did in the competition shooting world can be directly attributed to practice more so than a 4ms drop inside the rifle. Give me one person with a 5ms slower personal lock time than you and that 4ms in the rifle isn't gonna change a thing for them downrange.

 

[Mudcat-NC]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Yes, you are correct, you know more than I, you win.

John

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Whatever,
try shooting a mover and you'll see the difference between a person's internal lock time and a rifles lock time -- it's bold and bright across any system, the fact that two shooters with the same rifle can have a vastly different lead is a lesson in itself how much the human factor overrides the mechanical.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I have to agree with Frank on this one - if you are in a tactical situation and need FAST rounds but don't care about accuracy so much try one of these:

 

[gugubica]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Shot for shot, good driver to good driver, a gasser is going to be faster.

But, these are only tools. You have to choose the right tool for the job.

Competion, by nature, is an equalizer. It is typically designed that all can be competative.

In Frank's example above, it is set up with a 20 second time limit. A bolt gun can do it. A gasser is at a slight disadvantage due to it's unforgiving nature (less forgiving of shooter error). The shooter has to be EXTREMELY disiplined in his fundamentals to do this in a rapid fire situation. Does he folow through each shot? not releasing the trigger until after the recoil pulse has subsided?

A bolt gun is much more forgiving of small errors in shooter's fundementals, so, if there is enough time available, why not use a bolt gun, as you would not have to be as perfect? But what if there was only 10 seconds available to engage all the targets?

What tool would you choose then?

If your primary mission is to engage MOD targets (minute of dude), and you have the ability to manuver into position to take one or two well aimed, ling range, slow shots, a bolt is your best bet.

If you are stuck on top of a building with a hoard approaching to kill you, picking off MOD size targets as fast as possible at 300 to 600 yards, 20 rounds available before a reload and a 6ms lock time is probably going to be your best bet.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shot for shot, good driver to good driver, a gasser is going to be faster.

But, these are only tools. You have to choose the right tool for the job.

If you are stuck on top of a building with a hoard approaching to kill you...
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<span style="font-weight: bold">
Maximum effective range: 3609.1 feet (1100 meters)
</span>

- OK Realistically - If you have ONE target to take out - and given the time to set up at a distance, a bolt gun is your sure bet.

If you have multiple targets, within 10, sure, a gas gun within 600 yards can be done by any competent marksman.


If you have a hoard coming at you - see above.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

WOW! We got THE 'pig' involved in this.

I carried one of those a looooong damn way once, REFORGER '83. 40 something miles in 24 hrs. It was a good night though. We got a bunch of OH-58's and a bunch of 6000 gallon tankers that night. Pissed a lot of people off too!

Anyhow, I went to the range to give this a try. Using my carbine (Red Ryder 200 shot range model BB gun, nicknamed 'OL Blue) The first time I tried it, I fired 18 times and got 8 hits on a 10"x12" diamond shape @ 300 yds. Needless to say this isn't easy. It would have been interesting to see if most of my first shots hit or my last shots. I noticed I was having to re-adjust more at the last of the timed shoot. It wasn't easy by any means. I did use standard A2 sights. I have a clamp on carry handle w/A2 sights. The carbine is really an AR. It being Christmas I thought I'd tell you all the "OL Lady" finally let me have a BB gun. But I didn't shoot my eye out...
I went with the full mag and not 5 in each mag as Stang shooting does. I was laying in the snow and didn't feel like changing mags. I didn't even feel like laying in the snow but thought I would at least be half-assed true to the comp.

Second time I got 11 hits. {EDIT: 21 shots, so slightly better hit average.}

Conditions were about 3mph steady wind from the W. Sunny, cold as hell 5F. Ammo was handloaded 75 gr. Hornady HPBT. @ 2690. Wind all but died the second go-round. May be why my score improved. I did verify zero and practice some to see how I was going to do.

You all ought to try this. It's a good challenge.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

No Takers??

 

[Chris F]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I'm working on finding the time to get out to the range and give it a go with my A2.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

I head to TX on sunday, hopefully I will have some time to do it, I will get slung up, etc... try it both ways. maybe several

Video of course... but it may take a bit as I have back to back classes.

 

[TheEtruscan]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

Whether or not it is indicative, it sure is fun to watch those bolt gunners go to town like that.

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I head to TX on sunday, hopefully I will have some time to do it, I will get slung up, etc... try it both ways. maybe several

Video of course... but it may take a bit as I have back to back classes. </div></div>

Looking forward to that. Like I said I'm laying in the snow with extra layers on so I'm not going to fight changing mags. I just want to see how well I can stay on target and shoot for 25 seconds.

When I first looked at the target through standard A2 sights I thought I would be lucky to hit just a couple. Like you said though, lock up tight and drive it right and you'll get more hits than you think.

 

[Mike]

Re: Bolt guns faster than semi in rapid fire comps

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArcticLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to agree with Frank on this one - if you are in a tactical situation and need FAST rounds but don't care about accuracy so much try one of these:

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This is no good unless it's hanging from inside a helo door.