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Gunsmithing Broke my first Remington bolt

coldboremiracle

coldboremiracle

Freelance Sharpshooter
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Jul 7, 2009
    5,237
    1,133
    Utah, north
    www.coldboremiracle.com
    So like it says, I figured it would happen at some point, but I never thought it would happen this soon. Today I ran up the mountain to do a little shooting, things were going spectacular until I closed the bolt on one. As soon as I applied downward force to the bolt, the handle came free into my hand. I was not pleased.
    This is the bolt to my favorite gun, my little custom .223.
    DSCF5539.jpg

    The bolt in question is a PTG with a straight handle, it was originally TIG welded by the gentleman who built it for me. I have no doubt that it was done properly, I believe the weld broke due to excessive stress applied trying to make up for a schitty Remington extractor(since replaced). I figured I would just have it re-welded and go about my shooting, but I was curious if there is a better way. I have seen some before that had flush fitting screws through the bolt handle into the bolt shank itself, I assume it was welded/brazed as well. I'm wondering if I could do the same thing, and if a humble bolt yanker like myself could do it?
    Does anyone have any pics or schematics showing this procedure? and or suggestions on how to do it?
    Or perhaps a recommendation to someone who could do it for me. Here's what the damage looks like:
    DSCF5633.jpg


    DSCF5631.jpg


    Thanks in advance
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    Take it to a local welding shop that has a tig. Let them grind the welds off and I will say that they can make the weld look better and stronger than the orginal.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    So did you have a hot load problem and had to force it open?
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So did you have a hot load problem and had to force it open? </div></div>
    No, It just broke off during normal operation.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    Dans40x would be my go to. While he might come off as abrasive to most, he's damn good at making things like this right. He's done my remington bolt handle, with quick turnaround and excellent pricing.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    put a good bevel in the bolt handle itself and have it TIG'd on with a control pedal for heat and kill control. good luck next time.

    BTW, you might wanna turn your rings around if you get the chance....
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drunkhumpinmonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, you might wanna turn your rings around if you get the chance....</div></div>

    Always wondered what the deal was with ring orientation. Does it really matter?
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drunkhumpinmonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    BTW, you might wanna turn your rings around if you get the chance.... </div></div>

    But then my scope would be backwards
    crazy.gif
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    Uuuh.......... That bolt weld was okay. Just not fully welded. When tig welding you must also hit both ends. You must do under the handle as that is where all the pressure is to open it. The other end is how you pull it shut. The very front edge need not be welded. Just along the back edge isn't going to cut it. A nice bevel would have allowed a little more weld but still not enough to stand alone. Holding that handle flush to the rear may have also been part of the extraction problem.

    Nathan Dagley has some smooth videos on the subject on his page. I do it the exact same way. The videos will explain the correct timing and spacing as well. http://tiptopwebsite.com/websites/index2.php?username=ssgcustomrifles&page=15

    Oh yeah. Your Burris Extreme rings are on backwards. Lift it off and take a look at the cross bolts and you will see the difference. Be sure to hold it them tight to the front when you tighten them up.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    A Savage would never do that
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Savage would never do that </div></div>

    10 posts huh. Troll.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Savage would never do that </div></div>

    10 posts huh. Troll. </div></div>

    hahaha, but he's right isn't he?

    Hired gun, thanks for the link's very helpful!
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Savage would never do that </div></div>

    10 posts huh. Troll. </div></div>


    A member that's been here for 7 months and only ten post, I would not consider him a troll.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    When the weld itself splits, you have a shitty weld
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: IdahoMike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: drunkhumpinmonkey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, you might wanna turn your rings around if you get the chance....</div></div>

    Always wondered what the deal was with ring orientation. Does it really matter? </div></div>

    I just pulled a scope off my friend's .22, he had the rings oriented like shown in this thread. To zero he had to dial 5 mils left. We put the rings on the other way (nuts on the left) and his correction was only 2 mils right. It made a difference.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When the weld itself splits, you have a shitty weld </div></div>

    You are 100% correct. With a good weld it will VERY rarely break at the weld, if it's going to break it will be somewhere else.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    The weld is thin but it would have never broken if the whole job was <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">complete</span></span></span>. A root bend is one of the hardest tests on a weld. It should never be subjected to a stress like that. I'm not saying it's perfect. A little room for improvement. It could have used a little more filler rod and a steadier hand but even a perfect weld here would have still broken.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    I think were looking at a classic case of inappropriate filler material here, surprised no one mentioned that as an option.

    Hired gun, you are right, it should have also been welded under the handle...but lets be honest here, under normal operation (how the OP said he was using it, not hitting it with a mallet) even a poorly (and it doesnt look to be poor) welded bolt should not fail, were not talking all that much stress there. With, what, an inch of TIG anywhere attaching the handle to the bolt it should not fail EVER under normal circumstances.

    Could have also just been run too cold though.

     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Could have also just been run too cold though.

    </div></div>

    That's what I would suspect. On most material, the weld will not break, perhaps the surround materiel, but not the weld itself. I'm no expert, but I'd have back-cut the handle and the filled, ensuring good heat and penetration. That could be done all around, and if correctly executed would allow the excess filler to be ground off, polished up and have a very nice seamless transition. Of course, that would take a considerable amount of time over what I imagine was taken to do what we see in the pictures.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">( not hitting it with a mallet) </div></div>
    blush.gif


    Now, I had mentioned something about a stuck case. . . . . . . I did have a few whacks at it, that's why I think this happened. I just wanted to know the best way to fix it right.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    This is getting stupid. With a 3" lever I could break a 1" wide tig weld with one finger pretty easy if I was allowed to pull it at the root. I have a bit of experience with this. Journeyman Welder Fabricator Boiler makers Union, Journeyman Industrial Maintenance Millwright, Tig welded up more than a few NHRA certified race cars. Seen my fair share of broken stuff. I have worked with metal most of my life and am considered to be pretty fair at it. The only reason this one lasted as long as it did is it was welded around the end of a curve. That gave it a little strength. Welding it proper (at least 3 sides) the handle will break before it breaks the welds.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JelloStorm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tipper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A Savage would never do that </div></div>

    10 posts huh. Troll. </div></div>

    As much as I like Savages, yes they wouldn't do that. But, along those same lines they could be a problem in that the bolt handle is separate and not welded on it will beat itself loose after a long time.

    In this particular case I would say take it to a good welder or a good gunsmith who knows how to weld with tig and get it done right. My personal opinion is that the weld had not near enough penetration. The catastrophic failure of the weld was also due to no support welds on either end or on the front side of the bolt. There is simply too much torsion on that weld for it to hold. Also, the fact it cracked right down the middle says it got hot and wasn't normalized.

    I'll also say, if anyone can have a tough day, it's welders. It's almost always a 'get it right the first (and only) time.' Good thing it's a 700 and there are plenty of bolts around if this one won't make the comeback.

    -good luck
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is getting stupid. With a 3" lever I could break a 1" wide tig weld with one finger pretty easy if I was allowed to pull it at the root. I have a bit of experience with this. Journeyman Welder Fabricator Boiler makers Union, Journeyman Industrial Maintenance Millwright, Tig welded up more than a few NHRA certified race cars. Seen my fair share of broken stuff. I have worked with metal most of my life and am considered to be pretty fair at it. The only reason this one lasted as long as it did is it was welded around the end of a curve. That gave it a little strength. Welding it proper (3 at least sides) will break the handle before it takes the welds. </div></div>

    +1
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    + 1 for dan40x.... fixed mine fast and did a great job just make sure you have good long distance plain bc he likes to talk lol
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    "Broke my first Remington bolt", "The bolt in question is a PTG with a straight handle, it was originally TIG welded by the gentleman who built it for me. "
    Not anything to do with Remington, I've never broke one yet.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me know if you want that knob touched up, or if you need refinishing done on the bolt after its fixed. No charge.
    </div></div>

    Thanks Keith, appreciate the offer.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: scottx88</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not anything to do with Remington</div></div>

    It's a Remington 700 bolt, surely that has something to do with Remington. What I was trying to infer was that the gun was a Remington, not a Winchester,Ruger,Browning,ect.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    That almost looks like it was spotted with a MIG. Instead of doing a complete weld, you spot, spot, spot....
    In fact, I'd bet that's what was done. I can't make a TIG look like that but I can make a MIG look exactly like that.
    I'd find a new welder if I was you.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigMoneyGrip</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That almost looks like it was spotted with a MIG. Instead of doing a complete weld, you spot, spot, spot....
    In fact, I'd bet that's what was done. I can't make a TIG look like that but I can make a MIG look exactly like that.
    I'd find a new welder if I was you. </div></div>

    I'm a pulser when I TIG weld. I lay a single bead, get out of the pedal most of the way, progress forward, and then lay the next bead. This minimizes the amount of heat added to the workpiece. My TIG welds have that look about them, although I don't think that welder overlapped each bead enough.

    I think the filler material was fine. If it were me, I'd use ER70S2 or ER70S6...Maybe even Crown 220.

    The main problem, as already mentioned, was 2 fold: Not enough penetration, and not welding enough sides. If either of those two things had been done better, there would have been no failure.

    Its clear the bolt handle edges weren't ground back and beveled to allow for more filler and penetration. However, without grinding into the bolt itself for more filler and penetration, not much additional penetration would be gained from laying back the edges of the bolt handle itself. Really, it just needs more welding around the sides.

    Anyway, this repair will be a cake-walk for any accomplished welder. You need not send it off to a special gunsmith. Find a weld/fab shop in your area, and they'll have it done in a couple minutes.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    AZ. that is some bitchen CS right there. He's not even your customer and you step up to the plate to fix it for free. That will get you my business for sure.
    Outstanding.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 0481</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AZ. that is some bitchen CS right there. He's not even your customer and you step up to the plate to fix it for free. That will get you my business for sure.
    Outstanding. </div></div>

    Thanks man, much appreciated.
    I didn't do the welding but the knob install was my work. Its a Phoenix knob.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 0481</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AZ. that is some bitchen CS right there. He's not even your customer and you step up to the plate to fix it for free. That will get you my business for sure.
    Outstanding. </div></div>

    As Keith mentioned, it is one of his knobs, I've had him do a couple. Outstanding service and a nice guy.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    silver solder is the way to go...you don't tig weld a bolt....
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    Problem solved!! It sure is nice to have good friends, especially ones with Tig welders in their garages. So my best friend and spotter (chubbles here on the hide) helped me out with my bolt today, we gave both bolt and handle a nice bevel, as well as two holes through the bolt body. One hole under the base of the the bolt handle, as well as one opposite on the end of the handle. He welded through the holes securing the handle in the middle, and then re-welded the now beveled rear edge. It looks and is strong as hell now!!

    DSCF5655.jpg


    tested it for function in the rifle and it works perfectly, looking forward to getting this stick back on the line this weekend!!

    Thanks to all for your help and suggestions, and thanks again to chubbles for his welding skills, his keen eye, and camaraderie.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: customshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">silver solder is the way to go...you don't tig weld a bolt.... </div></div>

    Yeah you do
    wink.gif
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hired Gun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why not weld the bottom of the handle?
    What did you set the gap of the forward side of the handle to? </div></div>

    We did weld under the handle. I set the handle in the same place it was, just reset it in the same place. So whatever it was before is what it is now.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    You mentioned some extraction problems. Too much clearance here is what causes that. With the bolt closed in the rifle pull the handle to the rear and then you can measure with a feeler gauge between the bolt handle and the rear edge of the action.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    I'm glad you're back up and running; it sounds like you made a nice repair. I'd also be interested in seeing some detailed pictures of how it turned out. Thanks!
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    sorry to hear this one of the weakness of rem 700 is the two part bolt [cheaper to make ] many have bolts come apart ! i scares me very badly and the trigger troubles as well ...
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    Hmmm glad to hear you have it fixed...

    coldbore, your rifles are stunning works... I remember reading your build thread a while ago. Very nice work.
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: McFred</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad you're back up and running; it sounds like you made a nice repair. I'd also be interested in seeing some detailed pictures of how it turned out. Thanks!

    </div></div>


    I second this... Some step by step photos would be cool.

    Why not tig?? why only silver solder? and what exactly is silver soldering?? I know how to solder copper pipe using 95/5, flux, and acetylene... Im sure silver soldering is different, but how much different
     
    Re: Broke my first Remington bolt

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: customshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">silver solder is the way to go...you don't tig weld a bolt.... </div></div>

    Yeah you do
    wink.gif
    </div></div>

    If you silver solder them they will break for sure...then you have that to get rid of before you do it right and tig weld it.
     
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