bump the shoulder .002???

Mag 300

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    just set up some new Gold metal dies RCBS in 338 lapua and took one of the fired catriges from the rifle.
    Measured the headspace for a marking point using stoney point headspace gage that connects to the 6" starett caliper. read .322 moved the due down and down and down till it toughed the arbor

    never did HIT the shoulder?? finally the bottom of the die contacted the arbor so cannot go any farther maybe got .0005 or 1/2 of a thou ??
    Am I missing something???
    Bill
     

    KQguy

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    You will probably need to "cam over",I have to do that on my 7mmWSM dies.That means you will have to set the die even deeper,and just go beyond the depth of where the die touches the shellholder.Just turn the die in another 1/8 turn and check it,you may even need to go a little further than that.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    understand Cam over.
    WOW never thought it would take that much, apprecitae it in that I thought I was loosing my mind!!!!

    Thanks KQguy
     

    Rafael

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Yup...keep screwing the die down.
    "Touching" the shellholder is not as far as it will go because there is some flex to the press and it will not be touching when you put it under stress of sizing a case.

    Keep going down a bit at a time until you get the desired bump.
     

    eitmsmf

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    If you want you can take material off the top of the shellholder. They can vary a good bit even in the same brand. You can chuck them in a drill press and run it against a stone and take off around .005 at a time and check it. I have also seen dies shortened but they were done by a smith.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Guys thanks for the ideas, either taking some materiel off the shell holder or the bottom of the die will do it .
    I would elect to take of the shell holder in that I would heve it set to over cam at the .002 bump and that would be a no brainer for future loadings
    Bill
     

    Rob01

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Believe RCBS offers some multiple thickness shell holders which might help.
     

    Winchester 69

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Believe RCBS offers some multiple thickness shell holders which might help. </div></div>
    Believe those are by Redding, and they increase head space rather than reducing it.

    Bill,
    The simple way is to shorten the shell holder. Put a piece of fine emery paper on a piece of plate glass. Manipulate the shell holder in a figure-8 pattern, checking the thickness frequently to judge your progress.

    There is nothing to be gained by over-camming once the slack has been taken out of the press. Flexing the press doesn't accomplish anything. Just shorten a shell-holder as needed. If your press doesn't have inherent slack and/or can't be cammed-over, just acquire the emery paper and a dedicated shell holder.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Winch69

    I agree once I get the shell holder to give me the .002 bump then I am all set from then on . once you overcam thats all there is for the press and if yor not getting the bump you need it has to be the shell holder adjustment thats needed.
    Thanks Bill
     

    hershey

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    i have the redding shell holder set, i've played w/ a handful of things trying to find a better fit, as yet i can't say i have seen any real difference, next time i get to a store i amm gonna buy several spare shellholders to do a little grinding on them as my 22-250 loads are hot enough that i am having a hard time sizing them back down, but it is wicked accurate so i don't want to back down the load.
     

    KQguy

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    I cannot get enough bump on my shoulder until I cam over on my press,I even called Forster(I use a forster co ax press)to see what to do,since I could not get .002" bump on the shoulder.He advised me to cam over on the press,and it would not hurt the press,he told me that was pretty common on short mag cartridges,it solved my problem.
     

    MitchAlsup

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Me, personally, I would chuck the die up in my lathe and take 0.002 to 0.005 off the base of the die.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Mitch you right I will be taking the die to work and have them cut off .030 off the botton
    I removed .020 from the holder and it still did not bump
    also after removing that much, the holder failed to extract the cartride from the die. it sheared off the neck of the holder so for sure need ,025 off min gooing to go for .030 maybe .040.
    Bill
     

    Winchester 69

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Has the brass you're sizing been fired in your rifle? You're about to take a lot of metal off the die. If it needs that much modification, I would at least ask the mfr about it. The initial machining operation will be grinding until you get past the hardened portion.
     

    Rafael

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Gent's;
    Not calling anyone a liar, but....I am a bit surprised that this cannot be cured without resorting to tool mods.

    I have loaded for at least 6 different chamberings for multiple weapons using various f/l and body dies for many of these chamberings.
    So far, I have never had need to remove material from standard shellholders nor the dies to get proper headspace; and there was always room to go further than I needed. My 308 chambers were cut by me and were left pretty short compared to factory chambers, and still no sizing issues.

    Will be following this thread with interest!
    Let us know the outcome!
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    RAF
    I agree,
    I just bought a new rifle and it has 40 rounds thru it . Lawton action and barrel
    so I received the brass hornaday fired from a factory loaded round there were 14 empty casings and 6 new. I assumed that they were shot from the rifle that is in transport to me right now.
    So took the dies and the empty casing trying to set the shoulder bump. could not get it then asked the question if anyone else has had this problem as I have not in the last 30 years of loading 6CM 6 XC 6 BR 308 300 win mag 7 wsm etc.

    This is so wierd when I get the rifle U will use some new Lapua brass get an accurate oal measuremnt load 10 rounds fire them and see if I can bump the shopulder then.

    So we agree its a wierd one
    Bill
     

    dmgreene

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Bill how many times has this brass been fired? Will the fired brass still chamber easily? Sometimes it may take 3 firings to get an accurate measurement on the shoulder. I use the Redding competition shell holders and with new brass I start off with the .010" shell holder to make sure that I'm not bumping the shoulder back to far to begin with. After 1 to 3 firings the brass will get where it will not chamber. Then start working back from the .010" shell holder until the brass will chamber easily. Since they are in .002" increments you will get the .002" bump that you need. Just make sure that you have fired the brass enough that it will not chamber before you start or you may actually be bumping back a lot more than you think.

    David
     

    Rafael

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Bill;
    Yup... pretty wierd.
    laugh.gif


    I think I would be inclined to wait and go off the brass you fire in the gun, but I agree the ones they sent "should" have come from the gun on it's way to you.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Agreed but there is something going on ??

    hell if the brass did not come from the rifle it would be strange but one way to correct it would be to load my own and shoot it
    then I will have the answer

    Bill
     

    Crazy Dog ll

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Bill any brass that has not been fired through your weapon needs full sizing. That gaves you a for sure base line to start with. I know the RSBS Competion Dies comes with a set of differ sizes of shell holders,But I don't know about the Gold Medal Dies. I would mike your once fired brass against new brass and check the reloading book specs and see how much you are off. Could be the chamber is not what you think it is. Had 375 H and H dies from RCBS that were totally off,the brass would only seat half way up the die . Send them back with 4 rounds of fired brass. They never say nothing ,but new dies came in the mail and they worked. I'd measure deminsions to your new vs fired brass and see if theres a big differnces. Hopes this helps.
     
    A

    Augustus

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    I had to hone .003 off of shellholders on my 375 an also on my 338 Edge. The brass got tight on both and the camming trick didnt help. After honing they lock up easy and the groups tightened up. It seems on some of the custom chambers standard dies just wont give the bump you need without modification.
     

    eitmsmf

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Custom dies are nice if they fit your chamber. My smith makes dies using full length die reamers that go with the chamber reamers. You can send fired cases and have a custom die made but the Redding full length S dies work pretty good once they are set properly.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Harold, Eitmsmf, Agustus and Rafael.
    I did not consider the custom die issue. these are Gold Metal dies and look expensive as hell, but all I use are redding comp dies.
    I will load the rounds and shoot them to ensure there out of the gun I will be getting. then fire 2 factory loads for comparison.
    that should get to the point of knowing what the hell is going on

    Thanks to all of you
    I will keep you posted on this
    Bill
     

    TomS308

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    Re: are you using the correct die ?

    RCBS® Gold Medal Match Series Dies
    RCBS® is proud to introduce the Gold Medal series of neck bushing rifle dies.
    This changeable diameter neck bushing type of die has been used by Bench Rest
    and Long Range Precision shooters for years.
    Due to variability in neck brass thickness, RCBS standard dies size the neck
    below your desired diameter and then pull an expander ball through to get
    the proper bullet tension. The Gold Medal sizing die features a self-centering,
    changeable neck bushing that allows you to precisely set the amount of tension on
    the bullet. This reduces work hardening of the case neck brass, prolonging case
    life and increasing accuracy. Neck bushings are available in .001” increments
    from .189” to .365”.

    The Gold Medal rifle dies are available in Full-Length and Neck sizing styles.
    The Full-Length die can be used as a bump die without the bushing,
    to set headspace back the desired amount.

    Neck bushings are not included. Proper neck bushing size can be determined
    two ways. Measure the outside neck diameter of your loaded cartridge, subtract
    .002” to .003”. This allows approximately .001” of brass spring back for correct
    neck tension. The other is to measure the neck wall thickness of your case, multiply
    by two, add the diameter of your bullet and subtract .001”. RCBS suggests that
    you have neck bushings one to two sizes above and below your target diameter.
    The Gold Medal seat dies features a micrometer adjustable, free floating and
    self centering bullet seating system with a convenient bullet loading window.

    So.. are you trying to FL resize with the neck die ?

    is the bushing adjusted correctly ?

    is the decapping rod sticking out to far.. keeping you going in all the way in with your brass ?
     

    mavrick10_2000

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    Re: are you using the correct die ?

    I've had this with my Redding .308 and .300 Win Mag body taper dies. Only one's I've ever had to cam over. Until camming over, Zero bump to the shoulder. Sort of pissed me off at first, kept checking my calipers etc, but nothing until adjusted down enough to cam over. The .300 WM was almost beyond the level I felt comfortable camming over to make a .002 difference.
     

    BLAWTON

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Harold, Eitmsmf, Agustus and Rafael.
    I did not consider the custom die issue. these are Gold Metal dies and look expensive as hell, but all I use are redding comp dies.
    I will load the rounds and shoot them to ensure there out of the gun I will be getting. then fire 2 factory loads for comparison.
    that should get to the point of knowing what the hell is going on

    Thanks to all of you
    I will keep you posted on this
    Bill </div></div>


    Bill,

    When you fire your rounds through your gun make sure that you are into the lands so the case does not jump forward in the chamber. I find it easy to just grind or hone some off the bottom of the die if you cant get any shoudler bump. Sometimes bumbing the shoudler back as much as .005" will help increase the accuracy as well. I set my dies so you can bump at least .005" but with brass spring the might not go far enough. Will have to double that number from now on to avoid problems like augustus ran into. Did we chamber the rifle for you?
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    First I would like to say thanks again to all, I am out of town right now and NEVER gave a thought to the eck sizing die issue , the reason that I dont think thats the issue if there is a relative amount of pressure needed to cycle the brass thru the complete stroke. but I will chack it and that along wit the decappping pin are excellent ideas that I never thought of

    Also Lawton did the chambering from what I understand as I am buying the rifle with 40 rounds thru her "used" I sincerely doubt that there is any issue with the chambering in that I have the greatest confidence that it was done correctly.

    I need to take it out for some shooting and will let you know once its fired and the results of the brass.

    I am very happy to have a lawton action and barrel.

    Thanks Bill


    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NotAGuru</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill Stoffels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Harold, Eitmsmf, Agustus and Rafael.
    I did not consider the custom die issue. these are Gold Metal dies and look expensive as hell, but all I use are redding comp dies.
    I will load the rounds and shoot them to ensure there out of the gun I will be getting. then fire 2 factory loads for comparison.
    that should get to the point of knowing what the hell is going on

    Thanks to all of you
    I will keep you posted on this
    Bill </div></div>


    Bill,

    When you fire your rounds through your gun make sure that you are into the lands so the case does not jump forward in the chamber. I find it easy to just grind or hone some off the bottom of the die if you cant get any shoudler bump. Sometimes bumbing the shoudler back as much as .005" will help increase the accuracy as well. I set my dies so you can bump at least .005" but with brass spring the might not go far enough. Will have to double that number from now on to avoid problems like augustus ran into. Did we chamber the rifle for you? </div></div>
     

    TomS308

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002 ?

    One thing i have always done when setting my FL resizing dies.. is this little trick. I take a lighted match and coat the case shoulder with carbon. Then i turn down the die till it rubs the carbon the off. Then turn the die down 1/16, or 1/8 turn more. This only works if the cartridge is only going to be used in one rifle. Also.. lube the inside of the case necks.. as pulling the expander ball thru a unlubed case neck can lenghten the headspace .002
     

    Winchester 69

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002 ?

    A 1/16 of a turn is 4 1/2 thousandths. If you can turn the die 1/32, you're getting close to 0.002".
     

    TomS308

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002 ?

    Yes, but you have to allow for brass spring back..
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002 ?

    UPDATE

    OK received the rifle and loaded some blind rounds for "no oal or headscape measuruements used"also used some factory hornaday rounds.

    Here we GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Mounted a Nightforce NSX 5.5 x 25 mil / mil on it
    Sighted in at 200 yds in 3 shots

    Took to the 600 yd range where some great members helped me shoot the 600 targets and worked the pits.

    elevation raised 2.5 mils

    first shot in the 9 ring

    next 2 in the X at 600

    The rifle is unbeleivable. going home today to look at the headspace and oal measurements and will post another updata later tonight

    All I have to say is THANK YOU LAWTON for a hell of the rifle
    Bill
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    OK here is the answer , I had to remove .021 from the bottom of the die to get .003 shoulder bump
    Never had to do this before??
    Have the die set to lightly touching the holder gives .002 to .003 bump back

    Bill
    Thanks for all of your help

    I highly suggest not removing any matereel from the shell holder as your weakening it " I know due to removeing .020 and it ripped out on the casing
    Bill
     

    3gunF1guy

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    I have a Dillon 650 that I load 223 rds on. I shoot this gun in 3-gun matches and it has to be a 100% feed all the time gun. The chamber is a 223 chamber not a 556 chamber and to make the case have enough sholder bump for about 10 thousands I needed to grind off the bottom of the sizing die. This make for a 100% gun. I also have a 6.5 Creedmoor bolt gun with a very tight chamber in it. The factory Hornady sizing die had to be shaved off the bottom to get a .002 bump on the sholder. I load that on a RCBS Rockchucker. I would have sent it back to the gunsmith to just have it reamed a couple of thous. but after breaking in the barrel and shooting it, it shoots lights out, so i'm not going to touch it. One good thing about the tight chamber is that I can still load the very long Berger 140 and the Sierra 142's and be 10 thous. off the lands and still have it fit in an AI magazine. So if the trade off is to grind a little off the bottom of the die, It may be well worth it.

    Some people get nervous when you say you shave off the bottom of the die, but in all reality it all depends on the chamber reamer used on your gun as compared to the reamer used on the sizing die. If they don't match, sometimes you have to grind.

    Scott
     

    steve marshall

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    I've had to send back several dies over the years to RCBS. Not to pick on them but that's all I used to use. At least in the past, they used to use several reamers to produce a finished die. Now whenever I buy new dies it will be Redding. But every manufacturer can have QC problems. At one point, I experimented with setting the sizing die with headspace gages and would come close but no cigar. I chose to blame springback but am not really sure. Several of the dies I sent back to RCBS were due to headspace issues but there was a 30-30 die that resized the neck about .020" off center, a 7RM die that was probably a .280 die and simply mismarked and my favorite was the 30-06 die that made .308 rounds with about .03" extra "headspace" for lack of a better term. This with the die touching the shellholder. This sounds like what you went through. In all I can reload over 85 calibers and well over half of these are now with Redding dies. I've never had to send back a Redding, but since I have no provision for checking proper sizing on some of these, they can't be held blameless. I use Wilson case gages as much as I can afford. The other gage I use is my eyeball. In some instances I use an optical comparator to compare fired rounds versus virgin brass and compare notes with "the Illustrated Reference of Cartridge Dimensions" published by Wolfe.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    Steve,
    I agree I got these RCBS dies in with a rifle trade, all other dies that I have are redding and agree that they are a quality die that is constant,
    Bill
     

    BLAWTON

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    A good way to check the die is to take the decapping unit out and push a new piece of brass in it. If it doesnt stick out at least .125" it needs some trimming.
     

    Casey Simpson

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    I had little luck sanding off the shell holder. Don't feel bad about turning down the die. This is a common remedy among a small group of precise handloaders.
    Handloading for Competition, by Zediker.
     

    1SMALLJOHNSON

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    All,
    The .338 Lapua Magnum has not yet been finalized thru SAAMI. CIP's had it for some time. There was some confusion regarding the proper headspace gauges for the cartridge, here in the US. Likely, somebody got a hold of the wrong headspace gauges and started making dies/chambers. I'm not saying that RCBS is at fault, I'm just saying that there are some innate "issues" with the Lap Mag. That could be just one of the problems with either the dies or the chambers floating around the US. Maybe.

    Regarding grinding the plate or the die: I agree with an above comment. With a big case like the Lap Mag, best to remove material from the die. You don't want a weak shell plate. The die might be a little hard, but you'll get thru it. I can personally attest to it.
     

    Mag 300

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    I also attest to taking the materiel off the die dont weaken the shell holder it does not take much materiel removed to fail it ..

    Wonder How I know that ?????

    answer: from being a dumbass and failing one
     

    JLM

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    Re: bump the shoulder .002???

    For my Redding S-Type .308 Die I have to cam over to bump .002. Weirded me out at first as the Forrester I had been using was not like that. GTG now thou.