Gunsmithing Buying a Lathe
- Thread starter dakor
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Re: Buying a Lathe
Whats your budget? depending on that, the smaller gunsmith lathes will do what the bigger ones will and you can spend the extra money on tooling and making jigs.
If your dead set on buying the bigger gunsmith lathe, take a look at the SHARP 13x40VS.
Kc
Whats your budget? depending on that, the smaller gunsmith lathes will do what the bigger ones will and you can spend the extra money on tooling and making jigs.
If your dead set on buying the bigger gunsmith lathe, take a look at the SHARP 13x40VS.
Kc
Re: Buying a Lathe
Also consider that the lathe will really be just the first part of your purchase. The grizzly lathes come pretty well stocked as far as chucks, steady rest and tool post.
Next your lathe will need cutting tools for turning, boring, and threading and if you decide to go with carbide insert tooling for this it will get expensive very fast, EBay will be your friend if you know what your looking for and have the patience to wait for what you want to come up for sale.
Also consider that the lathe will really be just the first part of your purchase. The grizzly lathes come pretty well stocked as far as chucks, steady rest and tool post.
Next your lathe will need cutting tools for turning, boring, and threading and if you decide to go with carbide insert tooling for this it will get expensive very fast, EBay will be your friend if you know what your looking for and have the patience to wait for what you want to come up for sale.
Re: Buying a Lathe
$2,000 to $3,000 can go pretty fast on tooling. Buy once and cry once.
Kc
$2,000 to $3,000 can go pretty fast on tooling. Buy once and cry once.
Kc
Re: Buying a Lathe
That was one of the reasons I was looking at Grizzly because they come with a lot of stuff. Some of the other lathes that were a lot more that I looked at did not even come with a chuck or a steady rest. I will be buying all carbide tooling. I have used cheaper end mills in the past on the mill I have and carbide is more expensive but it lasts much longer and I feel you get a much better cut with it so it is worth it in the end. I know a guy can go broke real fast on buying this stuff that is why I am trying to get the best bang for the buck on the lathe. I am just getting my feet wet in gunsmithing so I was wondering what you guys thought of the quality of these two lathes.
That was one of the reasons I was looking at Grizzly because they come with a lot of stuff. Some of the other lathes that were a lot more that I looked at did not even come with a chuck or a steady rest. I will be buying all carbide tooling. I have used cheaper end mills in the past on the mill I have and carbide is more expensive but it lasts much longer and I feel you get a much better cut with it so it is worth it in the end. I know a guy can go broke real fast on buying this stuff that is why I am trying to get the best bang for the buck on the lathe. I am just getting my feet wet in gunsmithing so I was wondering what you guys thought of the quality of these two lathes.
Re: Buying a Lathe
Don't write off HSS tooling on the lathe. Being able to custom grind tools for jobs (eg: truing the bolt face) will come in very handy. Also, you will find that 90% of the time HSS will cut better and leave a nicer finish on small manual machines.
I have plenty of indexable carbide tooling, but still find myself going to my custom ground HSS cutters most of the time.
I personally feel that it is a big mistake to choose only indexable carbide from the beginning when HSS blanks are so cheap and easy to grind... of course in a production environment where you mass-producing indexable tooling is wonderful.
Don't write off HSS tooling on the lathe. Being able to custom grind tools for jobs (eg: truing the bolt face) will come in very handy. Also, you will find that 90% of the time HSS will cut better and leave a nicer finish on small manual machines.
I have plenty of indexable carbide tooling, but still find myself going to my custom ground HSS cutters most of the time.
I personally feel that it is a big mistake to choose only indexable carbide from the beginning when HSS blanks are so cheap and easy to grind... of course in a production environment where you mass-producing indexable tooling is wonderful.
Re: Buying a Lathe
I personally would go with a 14x40 and add a dro, quality chuck, and give the true bore alignment system a peek. Buy a tool grinder and some hss as suggested to go with the 10 tool holders you buy.
I personally would go with a 14x40 and add a dro, quality chuck, and give the true bore alignment system a peek. Buy a tool grinder and some hss as suggested to go with the 10 tool holders you buy.
Re: Buying a Lathe
Yes
Yes
Re: Buying a Lathe
I agree with wtopace, carbide tooling can be great. HSS does have its place and once you learn how to grind and touch up HSS it can save you a lot.
Kc
I agree with wtopace, carbide tooling can be great. HSS does have its place and once you learn how to grind and touch up HSS it can save you a lot.
Kc
Re: Buying a Lathe
I have a G4003G and am extremely happy with it. However, I would prefer the 14x40 since it has the foot brake and coolant system. Unfortunately, it wasn't available when I was buying.
You can't go wrong with either one of those but single vs. 3-phase might affect your decision. Also, like others have mentioned, expect to spend an equivalent amount of $$ on tooling. The machine is the cheap part!
I have a G4003G and am extremely happy with it. However, I would prefer the 14x40 since it has the foot brake and coolant system. Unfortunately, it wasn't available when I was buying.
You can't go wrong with either one of those but single vs. 3-phase might affect your decision. Also, like others have mentioned, expect to spend an equivalent amount of $$ on tooling. The machine is the cheap part!
Re: Buying a Lathe
HSS is more forgiving when learning. It sucks to be fiddling around with a setup, move something even so slightly in the wrong direction, and hear that distinctive "tink" of a broken carbide insert. Oops, there goes another $10...
HSS also often cuts better on non-ferrous material if properly sharpened.
Carbide requires a bit of confidence to be run properly, because it typically cuts best with rather aggressive surface speeds. It will not respond well to a hesitant operator. Learn how to run it, though, and it'll produce some great results with minimal hassle.
HSS is more forgiving when learning. It sucks to be fiddling around with a setup, move something even so slightly in the wrong direction, and hear that distinctive "tink" of a broken carbide insert. Oops, there goes another $10...
HSS also often cuts better on non-ferrous material if properly sharpened.
Carbide requires a bit of confidence to be run properly, because it typically cuts best with rather aggressive surface speeds. It will not respond well to a hesitant operator. Learn how to run it, though, and it'll produce some great results with minimal hassle.
Re: Buying a Lathe
Put a piece of plastic pipe in the lathe and practice cutting threads.
Then Aluminum.
Then steel.
Then a cheap barrel.
Then an expensive barrel.
Put a piece of plastic pipe in the lathe and practice cutting threads.
Then Aluminum.
Then steel.
Then a cheap barrel.
Then an expensive barrel.
Re: Buying a Lathe
the g0709g is a great lathe....everything you would need....yes i have one....very good advice from above ppl.
the g0709g is a great lathe....everything you would need....yes i have one....very good advice from above ppl.
Re: Buying a Lathe
this might be a stupid question but here it goes what is the benefits of a foot brake
this might be a stupid question but here it goes what is the benefits of a foot brake
Re: Buying a Lathe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this might be a stupid question but here it goes what is the benefits of a foot brake </div></div>
It's nice to have when threading right up to a shoulder. Also, it can save a couple seconds when working on larger/heavier pieces, as those can take a bit of time to coast to a halt without a brake.
Some folks think that it adds a measure of safety, although accidents are likely to happen far more quickly than an operator can react. Assume a typical reaction time of a half-second (and this is probably optimistic); at 750 RPM, the spindle has made more than six revolutions before the operator will begin to engage the brake.
I don't have a foot brake on my current lathe, and had thought that I'd miss it. I really don't.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this might be a stupid question but here it goes what is the benefits of a foot brake </div></div>
It's nice to have when threading right up to a shoulder. Also, it can save a couple seconds when working on larger/heavier pieces, as those can take a bit of time to coast to a halt without a brake.
Some folks think that it adds a measure of safety, although accidents are likely to happen far more quickly than an operator can react. Assume a typical reaction time of a half-second (and this is probably optimistic); at 750 RPM, the spindle has made more than six revolutions before the operator will begin to engage the brake.
I don't have a foot brake on my current lathe, and had thought that I'd miss it. I really don't.
Re: Buying a Lathe
Foot brake is nice when threading metric, as you cant disengage the half nut. That's one of the few times I use it.
Kc
Foot brake is nice when threading metric, as you cant disengage the half nut. That's one of the few times I use it.
Kc
Re: Buying a Lathe
Just for information purposes. I use a G0709 and it has been a great machine with the best customer service a person could wish for. So far as HSS tooling is concerned, using it allows you to turn slower and still maintain a smoother finish than carbide. Carbide tooling likes fast and deeper cuts. I use threading and profiling tooling from the Arthur Warner Co. which sells the only indexable HSS tooling and inserts that I know of. This allows me to cut my tennon threads, for instance, very slow up to shoulder, providing time to disengage precisely and a beautiful finish. The G0509 wins here in its slower spindle speed.
Just for information purposes. I use a G0709 and it has been a great machine with the best customer service a person could wish for. So far as HSS tooling is concerned, using it allows you to turn slower and still maintain a smoother finish than carbide. Carbide tooling likes fast and deeper cuts. I use threading and profiling tooling from the Arthur Warner Co. which sells the only indexable HSS tooling and inserts that I know of. This allows me to cut my tennon threads, for instance, very slow up to shoulder, providing time to disengage precisely and a beautiful finish. The G0509 wins here in its slower spindle speed.
Re: Buying a Lathe
I really like the variable speed of the pm 1440 which allows me to speed up and slow down in mid cut. It is sweet for blind hole threading and when those odd harmonics kick in, I can dial them out.....food for thought.
I really like the variable speed of the pm 1440 which allows me to speed up and slow down in mid cut. It is sweet for blind hole threading and when those odd harmonics kick in, I can dial them out.....food for thought.
Re: Buying a Lathe
I have a question. Along time ago I worked in a fab shop and threaded pipe along with other things. From what I have been told and from what it looks like to me Remington uses a die to thread their factory barrels. If this is the case I am wondering why a gunsmith would not want to go with this option?
I have a question. Along time ago I worked in a fab shop and threaded pipe along with other things. From what I have been told and from what it looks like to me Remington uses a die to thread their factory barrels. If this is the case I am wondering why a gunsmith would not want to go with this option?
Re: Buying a Lathe
uh, my guess to start would be to eliminate the inherent slop designed into the the die's "tooth pattern".
Look at it this way. They design tools such as that, with a considerable tolerance so that their finished product will fit "any other part mass produced with a 'similar' thread style". Ergo, the actual thread/face contact ratio is only a small percentage of what could potentially be used.
Try this example. Take any 1/2" UNC nut, made by any maker, and run it onto any 1/2" UNC cap-screw, made by again any maker. Then just "wiggle" the nut around, and see how much movement you have. Radially, Axially, and Diagonally. See all that movement? Is that what you want your barrel to do, inside your receiver, before tightening it down on the "shoulder"? I think not.
Myself, I'd rather have custom cut threads, to ensure as close to 100% contact and support as possible.
Clear?
uh, my guess to start would be to eliminate the inherent slop designed into the the die's "tooth pattern".
Look at it this way. They design tools such as that, with a considerable tolerance so that their finished product will fit "any other part mass produced with a 'similar' thread style". Ergo, the actual thread/face contact ratio is only a small percentage of what could potentially be used.
Try this example. Take any 1/2" UNC nut, made by any maker, and run it onto any 1/2" UNC cap-screw, made by again any maker. Then just "wiggle" the nut around, and see how much movement you have. Radially, Axially, and Diagonally. See all that movement? Is that what you want your barrel to do, inside your receiver, before tightening it down on the "shoulder"? I think not.
Myself, I'd rather have custom cut threads, to ensure as close to 100% contact and support as possible.
Clear?
Re: Buying a Lathe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hero's machine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like the variable speed of the pm 1440 which allows me to speed up and slow down in mid cut. It is sweet for blind hole threading and when those odd harmonics kick in, I can dial them out.....food for thought. </div></div>
A variable speed would be NICE. I was facing a 3.5" piece of cold-rolled the other day and thought about how I wish that I had the capability to adjust speed on the fly. Trying to get a uniform finish on something like this is always tough - set the speed for a good finish towards the core of the part usually ends up being too fast for the larger diameters. Set the speed for a good finish on the larger diameters typically results in a crappy finish in the center. It can be frustrating at times. Anyone else have this problem?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hero's machine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really like the variable speed of the pm 1440 which allows me to speed up and slow down in mid cut. It is sweet for blind hole threading and when those odd harmonics kick in, I can dial them out.....food for thought. </div></div>
A variable speed would be NICE. I was facing a 3.5" piece of cold-rolled the other day and thought about how I wish that I had the capability to adjust speed on the fly. Trying to get a uniform finish on something like this is always tough - set the speed for a good finish towards the core of the part usually ends up being too fast for the larger diameters. Set the speed for a good finish on the larger diameters typically results in a crappy finish in the center. It can be frustrating at times. Anyone else have this problem?
Re: Buying a Lathe
woodsyA variable speed would be NICE. I was facing a 3.5" piece of cold-rolled the other day and thought about how I wish that I had the capability to adjust speed on the fly. Trying to get a uniform finish on something like this is always tough - set the speed for a good finish towards the core of the part usually ends up being too fast for the larger diameters. Set the speed for a good finish on the larger diameters typically results in a crappy finish in the center. It can be frustrating at times. Anyone else have this problem? [/quote said:
Re: Buying a Lathe
I ordered the G0790 14x40 but it is out of stock. The lathe is supposed to be in stock this month so I hope I get mine by the end of the month. I cannot wait! I am going to try and get down to Bob Pastor's place in the next couple of weeks for some one on one gun building training.
I ordered the G0790 14x40 but it is out of stock. The lathe is supposed to be in stock this month so I hope I get mine by the end of the month. I cannot wait! I am going to try and get down to Bob Pastor's place in the next couple of weeks for some one on one gun building training.
Re: Buying a Lathe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dakor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ordered the G0790 14x40 but it is out of stock. The lathe is supposed to be in stock this month so I hope I get mine by the end of the month. I cannot wait! I am going to try and get down to Bob Pastor's place in the next couple of weeks for some one on one gun building training. </div></div>
This is the model I've been drooling over as well. Great choice! I love Bob's vid's on YouTube and please check back to report on his one-on-one training. I was looking at one with Gordy Gritters- didn't know Bob offered them as well.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dakor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I ordered the G0790 14x40 but it is out of stock. The lathe is supposed to be in stock this month so I hope I get mine by the end of the month. I cannot wait! I am going to try and get down to Bob Pastor's place in the next couple of weeks for some one on one gun building training. </div></div>
This is the model I've been drooling over as well. Great choice! I love Bob's vid's on YouTube and please check back to report on his one-on-one training. I was looking at one with Gordy Gritters- didn't know Bob offered them as well.
Re: Buying a Lathe
I figured I would chime in here as well. Keep in mind as several people said HS or carbide tooling will cost you a pretty penny. What hasnt been mentioned is all the other things such as (Brown and Sharps) dial indicators, depth gauges, good micrometer, chamber reamers, live centers, bore indicators, bore bushings, etc, etc. You can figure you will spend as much or more on tooling as you do a lathe just to get started. Then you will always have additional reamers and such needed if you wish to change caliber or such. Grizzly lathes will get the job done and are small and lightweight which makes it easier for a lot of people to manage. It wouldnt be a bad thing to also look at older lathes such as American made Clausing or Leblonde and others. Also several other good ones are Webb, Morsiki, Watcheon. You can find most of these lathes capable of doing everything you will ever be capable of doing and much more. These are all much heavier lathes but with a lathe weight is everything.
I hope this helps you plan and gives you a better idea. I just retooled so I can give you a real number for what this stuff costs. PM me if you would like more detail.
I figured I would chime in here as well. Keep in mind as several people said HS or carbide tooling will cost you a pretty penny. What hasnt been mentioned is all the other things such as (Brown and Sharps) dial indicators, depth gauges, good micrometer, chamber reamers, live centers, bore indicators, bore bushings, etc, etc. You can figure you will spend as much or more on tooling as you do a lathe just to get started. Then you will always have additional reamers and such needed if you wish to change caliber or such. Grizzly lathes will get the job done and are small and lightweight which makes it easier for a lot of people to manage. It wouldnt be a bad thing to also look at older lathes such as American made Clausing or Leblonde and others. Also several other good ones are Webb, Morsiki, Watcheon. You can find most of these lathes capable of doing everything you will ever be capable of doing and much more. These are all much heavier lathes but with a lathe weight is everything.
I hope this helps you plan and gives you a better idea. I just retooled so I can give you a real number for what this stuff costs. PM me if you would like more detail.
G
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Re: Buying a Lathe
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dakor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My max budget would be in that $8500 range. </div></div>
For that amount, hire a machinist to inspect some used lathes, and you should have enough left over to pick up a nice Bridgeport as well.
Buddy of mine picked up a almost perfect Do-All , w/loads of tooling and a 9x42 Bridgeport for 7900.00
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dakor</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My max budget would be in that $8500 range. </div></div>
For that amount, hire a machinist to inspect some used lathes, and you should have enough left over to pick up a nice Bridgeport as well.
Buddy of mine picked up a almost perfect Do-All , w/loads of tooling and a 9x42 Bridgeport for 7900.00
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