Bye Bye Bi-pod, Hello Mega-Benchbag!!!

[Bunnypunter]

These bags are actually quite nice to have around. I own one made by Dog-Gone-Good Bags and a rear wedge to accompany it. I use the rear wedge more consistently with my bipod because that is how I prefer to shoot in the field. However, when trying to figure out loads at a distance, I prefer to use the big bag and help take a little more of my inexpirience out of the equation. These bags have a time and place. Maybe not for everyone but can be a useful arrow in the quiver, especially at the cost of ammo these days.

 

[cal50]

The spacing of a proper height bipod & butt bag is pretty damn stable, especially when pulled into the shoulder. The sand bag / clamp bags things are OK. A guy at our range had a brand new one and ripped it on his 3rd shot with his front swivel. He liked it a lot for a few shots. If it works for you then great.

 

[bogeybrown]

That bag, like every other thing we use, is a tool. And judging by that 100rd string, a very valuable one. It's really just an exaggeration of the front bags alot of guys are already using.

There are times when we, as shooters, need the best possible picture of what our RIFLES are doing. Whether that be for load development, establishing POI shift with a suppressor, or whatever. One of the things I respected about Elfster from the first post I read from him is his meticulous approach to what he does. All forms of "precision" shooting rely on the elimination of as many variables as possible, and the consistent approach the ones you can't eliminate. Elfster has the gift for seeing more variables than I do (and I don't think I'm alone in that category) and figuring out methods for controlling them if he can, and at least documenting them if he can't.

I really appreciate the info on this bag, and true to his nature, Elfster has helped me out quite a bit in some PMs on this thread to gain a better understanding of it. I'm going to have about 10 days at my house this YEAR. I'll be doing well to get two days on the range, but realistically I'll be grateful if I get one full day. In that one full day I need to zero and chrono at least 3 new rifles with freshly mounted optics and several different ammos to determine what each one "likes". This bag is going to save me a shi#-ton of ammo and time in getting a pretty clear picture QUICKLY of what is happening with the RIFLE while eliminating a good bit of the variable of ME trying to learn the nuances of each of the rifles.

I'm sure a number of ya'll have noticed how FEW threads can remain on the topic of SHOOTING before they devolve into bullsh*t. The last one I can remember is Bluto's quest to get his PredatOBR to group (I hope that one remained on topic since I checked). There's the Bear Pit and Maggie's Drawers and all kinds of monkey cages to have a sh%t-fight in. Can we PLEASE stick to shooting and the results thereof on this one? I for one am learning something, and that sh*t is fun for me.

Rock on Elfster, keep the knowledge coming!!!!

 

[E. Bryant]

While I see the value of such a tool for load development and other activity in which it may be desirable to remove the influence of the shooter, I also have a concern that each shot fired using such a device is missed opportunity to work on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Instead of finding a work-around to problems such as bipod hop, would it not be better to directly address the issue?

Of course, if the task is simply to measure the mechanical accuracy of the firearm/optic/ammunition system, then isolation of the shooter may be viewed as necessary. But it's certainly not very practical (or "tactical", depending upon the preferred nomenclature), and I think that's why the OP is experiencing a bit of push-back - especially in light of the provocative thread title.

 

[bogeybrown]

Absolutely right. And Elfster has said a few times in the thread that he's not really ditching his bipod. I think his obsession with consistency is pretty-well established by now, so this thing just totally makes sense for what he's using it for at this point.

When I was a PMI in the Marine Corps, any type of artificial support was a "cheat". We even went on to limit the use of the "loop" sling. The goal there was to truly guage the quality of the SHOOTER. Elfster is currently using this to guage the accuracy of his LOAD/rifle combo.

I'll be honest that I have mixed feelings about its use for the "grouping thread", but as Elfster STARTED that thread, and set the rules allowing a front bag prior to even buying this thing, then it is what it is.

This to me is a handy piece of kit that will find it's way into my toolbox where I think it makes sense. I'm certainly not going to take it out to a LR course, but I really want to see just how good this new GAP/Surgeon I bought is, and this thing is going to help me do that.

 

[BGE541]

If you are adding in a variable such as this bag i.e. support other then your usual bi-pod/set up wouldn't if harm your load development? I mean that the whole purpose of OCW method is findin a node that works in your rifle with you as the shooter. I may very well be wrong be the math doesn't add up to similar/consistent results once you start using the bi-pod again...

 

[hlee]

The bag is in the shape of an "H". One side of the "H" is lined with soft leather, the other side of the "H" bag is lined with a tactical type heavy duty poly nylon of some sort. The rifle weight when placed into the top of the "H" bag pinches the rifle in place while the bottom legs of the "H" bag flare out to the sides... That is how the bag works. It is not your typical sand bag that you just place your rifle on top of and it would be really helpful if you have a mid-length or rifle-length handguard. ,

"No lock down gun vises!! Sandbags are ok, bipods are ok, monopods are ok.... If you are using a vise, then you are not really shooting the damn rifle and a monkey can shoot the rifle for you."

Is it me, or is this H sand bag an ethical grey area given the rules of the shoot out?

 

[elfster1234]

"No lock down gun vises!! Sandbags are ok, bipods are ok, monopods are ok.... If you are using a vise, then you are not really shooting the damn rifle and a monkey can shoot the rifle for you."

Is it me, or is this H sand bag an ethical grey area given the rules of the shoot out?

that is a good point.

its pushing it but it is still a sandbag, but just on steroids........ You still need to drive the semi-auto as it's not totally locked into place & not adjusted with an elevation bar / spin knob..... breathing, heartbeat, & for the fact you need to re-set & drive the rifle after each shot is really no different than a bipod. Really, it's no different than a bipod other than maybe bipod jump.... It is hard to explain unless you've used this particular type of front bag. Really, it is no different IMO than a bipod other than helping with what I call "bipod jump" for developing your loads & testing your rifle to it's maximum.. Yes, if you want to test your self & rifle in a more realistic manner, then use the bipod and especially without the bipod. But for me testing loads or the full potential of my rifle to see what she can do, then yes... The bag is a great tool... That's all it is, an optional tool. As stated in the very first sentence of my OP, I'm not ditching the BIPOD and maybe some people are B-lining it from the title to response without actually reading the OP. Put it this way, as in the OP, I was testing 55grn VMAX's out of my rifle for the first time. 99 out of 100rounds were all sub-moa with 19 out of 20 5shot groups was sub-moa..... that type of stuff doesn't happen often and is hard enough to get sub-moa all day long with the shootout threads with only 6groups, let alone 19groups.... As stated in the OP, I was testing the full potential of the AMMO in question, along with the new rifle I just purchased this month. Once I get something locked down, then by all means....... I will be using my bipod as I love the feel & purpose of a bipod. Put it this way... I own all AR's & when it comes to testing my AR rifle's full potential & the ammo being reloaded full potential, I'm not going to strap a 20" LMT MWS into a bench rest vise.. As for myself, not you or anyone else, I like the feel of this bag when doing such tests as it still allows me to drive the rifle. It is hard to explain unless you've actually used the bag. To put an AR in a vise or actual bench rest rig, IMO is kinda silly, BUT that is just me.. Not saying you can't do it. Everyone is different. Whatever works best for you type of thing.

The main purpose of the shootout threads about 1 year ago, actually, was to simply shut those up that state on a non-stop basis "I shoot .5moa ALL DAY LONG".... hence the reason for the crown title and it's name. That's it... It's more to show off your rifle first and how "bad ass your rifle can be" as everyone likes to brag about, with a little bit of your own potential mixed in for fun. Like I've always stated before about 100yard group shooting, it is 40%rifle, 40%shooter, and 20% ammo... the further you shoot past 100yards, the more the shooter% increases IMO with factors like wind and mirage come into play & where art and science come together in the middle.

I never thought so many people could take such a thread in the wrong direction.... Especially when I show picture proof evidence of what is possible with your rifle's potential.. Not your potential.. I think I've posted enough kick ass groups with pics using a bipod that I don't need to justify my own personal potential...

This is only a tool for testing reloads & the rifle's potential peps. Do what you want, this is what I'm doing. If you find this info helpful, then so be it. This might sound crazy & I understand many people think my methods as a RECREATIONAL SHOOTER are crazy, but if you want to put a 20lbs sack of sand under your rifle, & 20lbs sack of sand over your rifle for the shootout threads to show your rifle's potential,,, then do it... I set those rules over 1year ago. Sand bags are cool.

Heck, heydogman is number1 on the shootout threads... I'm cool with this pic below 100%. Does it follow the rules of the shootout thread? Yes. Is he being ultra smart about getting the most out of his rifle while working with the rules? Hell yes!!..... he has an actual benchrest plate on a sand bag with baby powder. Is this OK? I'm fine with it as he is still somewhat driving the rifle with his own potential to a particular degree, but is really showing the rifle's potential more than anything by being really really smart about it hence = his groups are a hell of a lot better than mine.... Hence the reason why he is #1 and I am not.... That is just what heydogman does, and not what I do personally and my hat is off to heydogman. His experience & knowing what to do is why he is #1 and if you think you can do better, then I more than welcome you to join the shootout threads... Then again, I do hold #1 with best group at .179 WITH A BIPOD.... What is nice about starting your own thread is you can develop the rules which was done well over 1year ago:

Got a hold of some 6.5 100 grain Berger match bullets which are discontinued.Worked up charges from 41 to 42.6 of !MR 4007.If I had stopped at 42.3 would of been a great average..110 away from the lands and wind changing from west,south and back to west I didn't expect much.
The little bullet shot great and recoil was so light the rifle tracked perfect in the bags,until the last group.
The .180 group can go a couple thous each way but this is the best average.

heydogman 1Sept.
LR 6.5 creedmoor
Sightron S2 24x
Berger 100g match
IMR 4007ssc
Norma .243 brass to 6.5CM
Tula LR Mag primer
Front and rear bags

.514-.568-.417-.452-.180-.904 =.506 average

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[elfster1234]

As stated above & in the first line of the un-edited OP, the bipod is not being thrown in the trash people, nor will I stop using it. Hell, my best group to date (as in the pic below) & average, was still done with my rock river arms EOP varmint WITH A BIPOD.. Each tool has it's purpose, and what works best for you as stated above. Keep rocking those bipods people! They are just tools that we use depending on what you're doing! This thread's bag just happens to be a NEW toy in my arsenal. That's it.

 

[elfster1234]

BTW, for those that really want to test YOUR potential other that what I just described above & as some state "walk the walk" (you can't use my line!).......... feel free to join me and some other fellow SH members here! What about sand-bags? Hmmmm, sand bags not allowed! What! How dare you! JK Yes, you can use a bipod, but it must be on during the entire shootout for use during the 100yard section. You can NOT miss a single bullet off paper during the entire test or you need to start over. Read the rules. It's not all about making bug-holes.

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...on-red-dot-6xmax-only-king-hill-shootout.html

rules started & developed on 07/15/13:

I produced this "Close Quarters Competition 25/50/75/100yards, 20round only, king of the hill SHOOTOUT" thread to get myself & others in the sniper's hide community more involved with iron sights,,,, back up iron sights / offset iron sights,,,, red-dots / eotechs no magnification,,,, red-dots / eotechs with magnification,,,, and 1-4power / 1-6power scopes SEMI-AUTO RIGS..... AR or AK-47, just needs to be semi-auto.... I understand that MOST people DO NOT have a 3-gun set up in their community or in their backyard,,,, BUT most people do have a 100yards max range & are allowed to shoot at targets in multiple shooting positions as long as their shots are in a safe / non-rapid-fire manner. This shootout is geared more around the potential of the shooter, NOT the potential of the rifle (but it does help to have a kick ass rifle) .... Regardless of your entry outcome, please post your results & pictures. There will be no "best group" and no ".5moa all day long prize crown" as in the other shootout threads. Only your best average of all 4total targets = SCORE CARD TOTAL!! The smaller the score card total = the better obviously..... This is where you put your bench rest bug hole shooting skills on the back burner, and get your close quarter skills hot & ready... There can only be one KING OF THE HILL. Your job is to knock the big man off that hill. With that said, let the games begin.

 

[Kilmore]

I say we get two of these bags, fill them with sand, and have a pillow fight.

 

[wielywilly-g]

I my opinion as a scientist, the only way to develop loads is to take all other variables out of the equation or as many as possible. Like shooter, wind, temp. I would use a lead sled and shoot indoors and probably rig up a camera for the scope and a servo for the trigger. Once you get the best load worked up, then you get out your Mega Benchbag and head to the range with that load to see if you are as good. With variables like shooter and wind in the equation, you are just chasing your tail once you are under .5MOA. A load that was off a little one day might be the superstar the next.

Also, I see a confidence benefit with this method. When you see your "best load" system free of external variables is a certain angle say .3MOA, and with you involved is a certain angle plus a little say .4MOA, you could feel better knowing you are only responsible for the .1MOA difference rather than the whole .4MOA. Who knows, with the Mega Benchbag, you may not see a difference when you add in the shooter.

 

[bogeybrown]

I my opinion as a scientist, the only way to develop loads is to take all other variables out of the equation or as many as possible. Like shooter, wind, temp. I would use a lead sled and shoot indoors and probably rig up a camera for the scope and a servo for the trigger. Once you get the best load worked up, then you get out your Mega Benchbag and head to the range with that load to see if you are as good. With variables like shooter and wind in the equation, you are just chasing your tail once you are under .5MOA. A load that was off a little one day might be the superstar the next.

Also, I see a confidence benefit with this method. When you see your "best load" system free of external variables is a certain angle say .3MOA, and with you involved is a certain angle plus a little say .4MOA, you could feel better knowing you are only responsible for the .1MOA difference rather than the whole .4MOA. Who knows, with the Mega Benchbag, you may not see a difference when you add in the shooter.

Great point. I guess this is where I was coming from with my plan to use the bag when I check out my newest rifles. I want the best picture of what the RIFLE can do. If I know my rifle is capable of .5moa and I'm shooting 1moa with that rifle without the bag, then I know my technique needs work. Without some way of "proofing" my rifle it's difficult to assess how much "error" I'm imparting as the shooter. It's also a motivational tool to know how much better my rifle is than I am, it gives me something to work towards.

 

[Midwestside]

it holds .0013" groups depending on the ammo.......

Must of been an F&D

 

[bluto77]

and if you think you can do better, then i more than welcome you to join the shootout threads... Then again, i do hold #1 with best group at .179 with a bipod.... What is nice about starting your own thread is you can develop the rules.....o:

hilarious!!!

 

[bespain]

Elfster, I used a piece of 2x10 to raise my H bag off of the bench. It was just enough height and I was able to use a rear bag without having to flatten it out. My H bag would fit in a duffle on top of the 2x10 giving me a shoulder strap to carry the weight of all my crap. Mine was filled with sand and it was one heavy SOB, so heavy that the added weight of the wood was not noticed...

BTW: nice shooting. I wonder if that flyer got a partial (90%) charge causing it to fall away

 

[elfster1234]

hilarious!!!

I kept the sandbag at home today and ran this with my 6-9" harris bipod just to make sure my fundamentals was up to date with my .308 LMT MWS! LOL,,,,, I couldn't help myself but to post this. Sorry!

This really has more to do with a super fine tuned pet load ammo than anything else.... and yes, I'll take my cookie now, but with milk.

Just as a side note... I tested my AR-10 LMT MWS in the megabag while at home and the 20round pmag hits the table really bad & the megabag would need to be jacked up to make it work on a bench... We are not talking about much, maybe 3/4"?? Not sure how this will work with the rear bag that I'm using (not your bag!) and I still need to fool around with this front bag & LMT MWS combo.. I'll keep you all up to date if you give a crap. Anyway, this hasn't been an issue with my AR-15's, but then again I always rock 20round 5.56 PMAGS!!! You would either need to get some stable riser for the front bag OR a smaller 7.62 PMAG in which they haven't come out yet...... BUT the second the 10 & 5round PMAGS hit the market = I'M getting several of each for damn sure. Also, the height of the bench you're shooting off of obviously screws with this big time.

 

[bluto77]

Pretty decent shooting!

 

[elfster1234]

I ran this today with my megabench-bag with my RRA EOP varmint rifle & 55grns vmax bullets / 24grns varget. This was also with the chargemaster pen mod insert. I was really happy with this 10shot group elevation as I think it has a lot to do with the pen insert mod just trickling 1 to 2 kernels of varget past the target drop weight.... Not too darn bad. 7 of the 10 bullets are right at .383" group size with .29" elevation.... Once again, the mega-bench bag continues to impress me for testing reload information.

My rifle, Rock River Arms EOP, 18" SS barrel 1:8twist.

 

[OneCleanShot]

I could give a shit less what you believe or others. Maybe that's your problem is you care too much about what other people think. I contribute where I feel like, not where you determine it's worthwhile. And it's F&D rifles so if you're going to keep bringing that shit up then at least get the name right.

Great threads Elfster as i am new to reloading/ load development. I know how long it takes to do the pics and put it all together. Really BROKE...go away. Every post of yours pegs the Douchemeter.

 

[-Nick-]

Great threads Elfster as i am new to reloading/ load development. I know how long it takes to do the pics and put it all together. Really BROKE...go away. Every post of yours pegs the Douchemeter.

Did you seriously just bring up a thread that's 3 months old to talk shit? Idiot...

 

[OneCleanShot]

Did you seriously just bring up a thread that's 3 months old to talk shit? Idiot...

I believe that is obvious. But its not an old thread for me as I was searching for specific info regardless of the date. As for my opinion of you, there are people on here looking for good info and giving good info........and there are others like you. Also, there is no statute of limitations on being a douche......so i called you on it. Grow up and participate or get out. Baby.

 

[-Nick-]

I believe that is obvious. But its not an old thread for me as I was searching for specific info regardless of the date. As for my opinion of you, there are people on here looking for good info and giving good info........and there are others like you. Also, there is no statute of limitations on being a douche......so i called you on it. Grow up and participate or get out. Baby.

You should probably get out of your mom's basement before you start telling others to grow up, but please persist with your so educated comments.

 

[Thumper580]

Elfster1234.... Question about the bag. Did you fill it and if so about how much filler (plastic beads) did it take?

 

[elfster1234]

it came filled already... got it from scheels all sports.. I think I have pictures of the beads the bag is filled with in this thread if memory serves me correct.

Elfster1234.... Question about the bag. Did you fill it and if so about how much filler (plastic beads) did it take?

 

[OneCleanShot]

You should probably get out of your mom's basement before you start telling others to grow up, but please persist with your so educated comments.

Yes. And thank you for making my point. Carry on.