Yep. Gou are spot on. I would use 7mph for that rifle just to keep it simple.
- Thread starter Dunraven
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So from there I just think in terms of 7mph wind. So if it a 14 mph wind I double the clicks (.1 mils)? Is that right?
D
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An Army Ranger/Sniper by the name of Dan Flowers in about 1996...It was introduced to the Army school house shortly thereafter by the same, but got no traction on the grand scale. (Scopes already had a mix of Mils/MOA, they didn't want more "mixing")
It was stolen/appropriated by "he who shall not be named" around 2004-2005, and he made it famous while taking credit.
When Ash Hess re-wrote the Army Sniper manual and included an abbreviated version of the "mph/wind bracket" method in appendix C, it was Dan Flowers he consulted with.
That isn't hearsay, I have known Dan for over 20 years and have seen the Xcel spreadsheets he used to figure all that shit out (personal ballistics programs didn't exist in 1996). I was also witness to the discussions on "The Ballistic Edge" FB page while Ash was doing the revisions.
I was taught it by Dan when we were both members at Watauga Gun Club in Boone, NC in 1999.
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Okay so Ive gone through all the instruction frank has given about finding the mph value of my rifle and wanted to run it past you guys. Im shooting a 208gr berger with a g1 of .689 at 2960fps. I shoot at 4200ft above sea level and according to that math my rifle is a 8mph rifle. Does that sound accurate to you guys? Im still trying to figure this whole mph method out
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Awesome, thank you. I ran it through AB with there custom drag model but wasnt sure if that would still work instead of using the g1. I hoped it would as ive had better results running the custom drag vs bc’s
Interesting. So 15-20 years before a new technique takes hold in the wider community? I appreciate the history you provided here.
The BC method of determining wind has been in circulation for years. Yes, Accuracy 1st has made it seem that they invented it. We still teach this method at the schoolhouse as well, though we have refined it to make it easier for students to use.
Also, Hess didn't write the sniper TC. I wrote it. Hess was in charge of the .9 and was my first line supervisor. I didn't consult with Dan on anything in the Complex Engagement Appendix.
Gun MPH is nothing new. It is a great way to limit the shooter on making any mental calculations on the firing line. What it does is it allows shooters to talk in one language; MPH. Assess your indicators, refine your wind strategy prior to firing and then adjust as needed once you get the green light.
D
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The mph method isn't new, you are right about that. 1996 was a long time ago.
Like I said, I was witness to the conversations with Hess and drew my conclusions directly from those. Make of it what you will.
Another thing... the version you apparently wrote...your "refinements" make it overly simplistic shit. It only works accurately below 2000 ft elevation, and even then only out to about 800 yards.
If mediocrity is what you were aiming for, you nailed it dead center.
That was also five years ago. Even at the schoolhouse now, we have refined it and we run a better quick wind. Doctrine changes, but at the time from 2016-2017, that was what we put into print. But I feel the TC is a better product than what we had from the 09' and 13' versions. Luckily, and I'm sure you know since you seem to be the "SME", doctrine is continuously evolving and has to be reviewed every few years. Next time, if you are still in, go ahead and submit that 2028 and offer up your comments for change.
I simple stated a correction and perhaps Hess did talk it over with Dan. And it isn't an apparent; I'd be glad to back my so called claim of being the writer.
If you realize they modeled G7 in 1940 and were well aware of it prior to 2005, you ask why they didn't move to the G7 model, it was the wind.
The G1 values had wind built in, so they kept it for as long as they did to help the ones who understood it.
The interesting thing with the MPH Gun, is how close the MOA math comes to 10MPH which is pretty much why everything here was listed as 10MPH as examples. Today the math comes closer to 9 MPH but our bullets are going faster then back then.
Nobody alive today invented it, we just rediscovered it and manipulated it to work under our current shooting styles. It's was there, just disappears from view every so many years
The G1 values had wind built in, so they kept it for as long as they did to help the ones who understood it.
The interesting thing with the MPH Gun, is how close the MOA math comes to 10MPH which is pretty much why everything here was listed as 10MPH as examples. Today the math comes closer to 9 MPH but our bullets are going faster then back then.
Nobody alive today invented it, we just rediscovered it and manipulated it to work under our current shooting styles. It's was there, just disappears from view every so many years
D
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What you wrote in that TC appendix amounts to the "BC" method, which is related to, but not the same as the MPH method.
The MPH method accounts for velocity and altitude.
The baseline for the BC method to = the MPH method is 2,800 fps @2,000 ft elev.
+/- 200 fps = 1mph change in wind.
+/- 4,000 ft elevation = 1mph change in wind.
The reason M118LR is a "4" instead of a "5" (.505 BC bullet), is because it is going 2,600 fps.
The reason A191 isn't a "5" is because it is going 2,900 fps. Even at sea level it is closer to a "6". Go up to 4,000 ft and it is a solid "6".
Put that in your next revision.
Will do. Appreciate the feedback.
They never looked at where it changed, TH isn't that smart, which is why Wind Dots don't work right
They just used the base information and not how it got there or why, he is not a WHY guy because he is borrowing the information most of the time
They just used the base information and not how it got there or why, he is not a WHY guy because he is borrowing the information most of the time
I’ve never used the wind dots or the tremor 3 reticle but why doesn’t it work ? Is it because as soon as you dial elevation then it’s all meaningless but if you were to use the wind dots only for hold overs wouldn’t it not kinda works ?
D
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It is possible to calibrate the dots at any given altitude. But to use them you HAVE to be holding over. If you dial then you are using the center crosshair anyway.
If you go from sea level to 4,000 ft, then your same round gains 1mph of wind. Those dots are now invalid, and get more invalid with the more wind you have and the farther you shoot.
Wind dots can be "good enough" within 500 yards, because you can get away with a ton of shit out to 500 yards. It just isn't that far. But to put them in a long range optic is retarded.
The amount of understanding and effort that it takes to learn those dumbass dots could just as easily be put to use learning how wind actually works.
Why
Go listen to one of podcasts listed in this thread where it is described. The value is quick communication that removes the caliber, mv, and bc from the equation. My 1.2 mil hold would not be yours if I'm shooting 6.5 and your shooting a light 6mm. But if I tell you the mph equiv we can communicate without conversion.
If I tell you my hold was 12mph, and you know the mph of your rifle your gtg.
If I tell you my hold was 12mph, and you know the mph of your rifle your gtg.
I know I’m late to the party, but devouring all I can about this.
Now I understand that I have a 4mph gun and how to use that info accurately.
Such a wonderful principle that really works well.
I am very appreciative!
Now I understand that I have a 4mph gun and how to use that info accurately.
Such a wonderful principle that really works well.
I am very appreciative!
I wish I was smart enough to do my 375 Cheytac at 2960 fps using a 427 grain solid copper bullet from Cutting Edgeout of a 35 inch barrel..I shoot it out to 3,000 and farther.
First number of the G1 BC of your bullet is the Gun Number or Wind
We used G1 for 80 years while having G7 because G1 gives you the wind it was made that way
We used G1 for 80 years while having G7 because G1 gives you the wind it was made that way
Okay, Question- I have never been good at translating wind to holdovers, Mainly because it just doesn't register with me. I have had several attempt to explain it however I have never asked here. It would be much appreciated if the explanation could be kept KISS for me.
I was out this morning in a powerline and had a wind blowing pretty steady at 03 MPH. My Target was at 455 yards. How do I translate that distance and wind reading in mph to a mil hold?
By using your 100-600 above, would I use a .4 hold or a .5 hold? Or does that matter enough in error at that range as it is so close.
Respectfully
well assuming you have a 3mph gun (to match the wind) and the wind is 90 degrees (prevents half values), then .45mil or as close as you can get with your reticle
if you have a 6mph gun then you're going to be holding .225 so .2mil
if you have a 4-5mph gun then call it .3mil
make some hand written tables based on some different wind values. make some guesses. then use your kestrel or ballistic app to double check
Ouch. I'll PM folks from now on so I don't get skull drug for wanting to learn. I thought there would be folks in here professional enough to help me understand.
That is a skull dragging ? Wow, talk about a change in the modern man...
Everything matters with the wind, asking if it matters because you see it's only .1 difference between 400 and 500, but that is with a specific wind... if you change the wind speed, you change that value so it all matters.
how wide is the target, they are not all the same, is there a gust in there some where ?
Asking a bad question is just as likely to get you a bad answer
Everything matters with the wind, asking if it matters because you see it's only .1 difference between 400 and 500, but that is with a specific wind... if you change the wind speed, you change that value so it all matters.
how wide is the target, they are not all the same, is there a gust in there some where ?
Asking a bad question is just as likely to get you a bad answer
Charts make it kiss, not putting in the effort makes it hard. You have to work to learn the wind, there are no free rides
There are lessons in the patterns too
Even funnier, all this was on repeat mode in this thread several times, including a step by step instructions on Page 1, but I understand we didn't provide the engraved invitation to read that far back, so in order to redeem my skull dragging,
So when you are at a match:
Step 1 - Measure the true wind speed and angle. Example - the true wind is blowing at 20mph at 45 Degrees (1:30 o-clock right to left wind).
Step 2 - Turn the wind speed to a 90 deg full value. Example - Using a wind rose or trigonometry the portion of the wind vector that is at 90 Degrees to you is 14mph.
Step 3 - get your wind hold by using your MPH. Example - 600 yard target is 0.6 mils at 7mph, so at 14mph is it 0.6x2 = 1.2mils wind hold.
The beauty of using the mph method is the corresponding holds at other distances. For your 7mph gun here are your holds at 7mph in a corrected wind.
100 yds = .1
200 yds = .2
300 yds = .3
400 yds - .4
500 yds = .5
600 yds = .6
and so on. Around 800 or 900yds is might skip a extra tenth 800 = .9 and skip another at 1000 or 1100. You'll have to check your data to know when your gun will skip a tenth.
Match Example
Target at 400 yards
True wind = 10mph wind at 5PM (R to L)
Vector = 5mph wind (from wind rose)
Hold is .4 at 7mph - so hold at 5 mph = .3 (this is rough math that can be quickly done in the field)
Please note - when finding your gun mph you must use the Wind value only. No spin drift, no Coriolis, no alien voodoo. Just pure wind. If your shooting more than 1000 yards or more you can then add the voodoo stuff manually.
Cheers.
Is there a trick to the trigonometry or wind rose without the wind rose? Is it just straight memorization? How do you learn the corrected wind for the direction it's blowing at every wind speed without the wind rose in the field?
Yes That was an uncalled for answer..Even if he/SHE was being sarcastic or playing around.
you've been here 5 years and don't know who Lowlight is??
i could see where the confusion comes from though as he definitely has been caught wearing heels
Since this thread has been resurrected and derailed, I’ll ask this.
Does the T3 reticle simplify this at all? my use case is an 18” 6.5 CM gas gun for shots out to 1200yds or so. SOCOM grabbed the T3 in their 7-35 ATACRs for shots out to 1500 or more. There are other things I like about the T3 besides the wind dots but other reticle have those features too
Does the T3 reticle simplify this at all? my use case is an 18” 6.5 CM gas gun for shots out to 1200yds or so. SOCOM grabbed the T3 in their 7-35 ATACRs for shots out to 1500 or more. There are other things I like about the T3 besides the wind dots but other reticle have those features too
Sadly.
I dislike the T3 and the wind dots simply because at 1000+ yards, why the fuck would you not be dialing and holding your wind. The wind dots are meant to be used as holdovers and it becomes a cluster fuck when you start dialing.
Just learn the MPH technique, it's simple, mostly foolproof and very fast.
If you do not have a wind rose you can memorize these couple numbers and do the math in the field
12:20 = 25%
1:00 = 50%
1:30 = 70% (some would use 75%)
2:00 = 86% (some would use 90%)
2:30 and 3 = 100%
Example
10mph wind at 1:30 is 7mph cross wind (10mph x 70% = 7mph)
The T3 sounds like a good idea and the marketing and hype were off the charts. But if you actually had to use one beyond 600 yards you need fine aiming points and the ability to spot your misses. Looking thru the screen door that the T3 is would make that job more difficult than necessary. Think about it in actual field use…. You’re going to dial the elevation so your wind is already going to be on the horizontal line of the reticle. Any standard reticle with approx 0.2 marks is going to give you exactly what you need using the mph method. And when you swap it to a different rifle it is universal in actual use.
Wind Call - RAGS/10A
6mph Gun# values Multiply value most resembling actual wind speed and angle by range to target and you have your wind solution!
www.snipershide.com 
@Lowlight - Frank (or anybody else), you know I rode the short bus to school so....what is this chart for. What MPH gun. I see that under 6 mph wind at 100 its a .1 hold. Makes sense for a 6 mph gun but it doesn't hold as we go thru the chart.
i.e. if a 6 mph gun, then at 100 yds wouldn't the 12 mph wind hold be .2, but it shows .3? And if we go down the column under 6 mph wind, then shouldn't the hold values just march up at .2, .3, .4, etc as the range increases.
Yes, I admit in advance I'm an idiot. LOL
The chart is old, 15 years old, you don’t understand it please don’t use it
None of the other numbers will work for you it’s not a MPH gun chart it just shows you can see it based on the bullet.
The chart is an old 175gr chart only for my gun, we don’t use these like this anymore
Stop over complicating things we have gun number charts on here that look nothing like this right ? You saw the PowerPoint 3x now, the gun number chart looks different
Only the 4 MPH column works because it’s a 4 mph bullet nothing else will work for you
None of the other numbers will work for you it’s not a MPH gun chart it just shows you can see it based on the bullet.
The chart is an old 175gr chart only for my gun, we don’t use these like this anymore
Stop over complicating things we have gun number charts on here that look nothing like this right ? You saw the PowerPoint 3x now, the gun number chart looks different
Only the 4 MPH column works because it’s a 4 mph bullet nothing else will work for you
But its my super power! LOL
Well, only twice....this Sep will be 3 times! haha
I got it...I have the proper gun MPH charts and understand them. This one we are talking about just sort of threw me for a loop.
Thanks Frank and travel safe. I look forward to seeing you and Marc in Sep.
Advanced Marksmanship - Data Book and Charts - Dope - Wind Rose - Weaponized Math - MOA to Mil - Jack Master
Update 12/29/2021 - I have updated the Google Document Added a sheet to calculate your Speed Drop Factor for you. See this article for more info on the Speed Drop Factor Finding your Speed Drop Factor Update 5/13/2020 - I have updated the Google Document. On the Density Altitude sheet the -...
www.snipershide.com Correct charts
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