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Rifle Scopes Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

ctam

Private
Minuteman
Sep 9, 2006
19
0
49
Melbourne
Hi Fellas,

Something that has always bothered me about my S&B PMII 3-12 x 50, that nobody ever seems to talk about, is how on my scope the maximum FOV is reached at about 3.5x power. Turn it down to 3x and the image gets smaller, but the FOV does not increase. Even my far cheaper Nikon Tactical gives me a full FOV all the way out to the lowest power.

Is this particular to my specimen, or has everyone else had the same experience?

Thanks in advance,

CTAM
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

That's normal for that scope. Quite a few Euro-style scopes do this to some extent. The IOR 3-18 actually reaches max FOV around 3.8X. This is one of the perks of the Premier 3-15X--you get FULL FOV at 3X.
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

The 5-25 does the same thing. Seeing as i rarely go thast low it didn't bother me on either.
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Mine does it, and it doesn't bother me at all....
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Thanks guys. Glad to see that mine is normal. Does the 4-16x have the same phenomenon?
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

I have one so I'll check it when I get home....
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lizzardking308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yup, Both mine do that as well. Completely normal. </div></div>

+1
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

My guess is that they do that to limit amount of light coming in. As FOV goes wider, more lights are coming in....which contrary to what other people think, too much light can be bad.

Before you say that doesn't make sense, think about when you walk out in absolute white out condition (sunlight/snow or desert). What do you do naturally? Squint your eyes. Doing that, is same as aperture stop aka f/#, etc.
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toovira</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My guess is that they do that to limit amount of light coming in. As FOV goes wider, more lights are coming in....which contrary to what other people think, too much light can be bad.</div></div>
This is not "done" intentionally, it is just a compromise because of a technical problem that many manufacturers do not seem to be able to work around.
What you can see when you turn down the power is simply the edge of the reticle that acts as a field stop and limits your FOV once you decrase the magnification beyond a certain value. The reason for this is that the reticle is physically too small to give full FOV on low power. This is especially easy to understand on FFP scopes: As you decrease magnification, you can see more and more of your reticle, until at a certain point, you have reached the edge of the reticle and you just see the black circle that is your field stop. Now if the scope allows you to decrease magnification further, you will just see more of that field stop while your image shrinks and seems to "move away" from you. There is nothing to be gained by this effect, you just loose FOV on low power. The only potential "advantage" is that you cannot see the poor image quality around the edges of the FOV of non-premium optics, because those areas are simply masked by the field stop.

Now why don't all manufacturers use bigger reticles to avoid this phenomenon? As said, in order to do this, the physical diameter of the reticle has to be increased, which means that your erector tube gets bigger. A bigger erector tube inside a given main tube diameter means less adjustment range, something that is not exactly desirable in long range optics. Additionally, potential weaknesses of the optical system will be exposed mercilessly on low power. Many scopes suffer from heavy distortion on low power, somethig that will jump at you once you've seen a scope where this is corrected properly. Take a FFP scope of your choice, put it on lowest power and move your head/eye up and down inside the exit pupil. You will see the reticle and image warp and make all kinds of funny movements that increase towards the edges. Feel free to compare directly to a Premier scope.

If you cannot or don't want to increase the diameter of the reticle, you can either use a lower zoom ratio (3x instead of 4x or 5x, that's why many cheaper scopes come in 3-9x for example) or limit the FOV throughout the whole power range, which will give a smaller FOV on high power, but allow the FOV to increase all the way to low power.

The bottom line is that the non-increasing FOV is a compromise that is a result of cutting one or more of several corners. Avoiding this is mechanically and optically demanding and you have to design the scope from the ground up with this in mind. That's why we are proud that Premier can offer a true 5x zoom ratio with full FOV throughout the power range <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> at the same time provide a huge reticle adjustment range.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toovira</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you say that doesn't make sense, think about when you walk out in absolute white out condition (sunlight/snow or desert). What do you do naturally? Squint your eyes. Doing that, is same as aperture stop aka f/#, etc.</div></div>
As mentioned above, we are talking about a <span style="font-style: italic">field stop</span> here, as opposed to an <span style="font-style: italic">aperture stop</span>. A field stop reduces the FOV, while an aperture stop limits the amount of light that passes the system. Given the power ranges we are talking about, the exit pupil of the scope set at low power will always be smaller than the eye pupil of the user, so the eye acts as the limiting aperture stop of the system. Of course a smaller FOV will limit the absolute amount of light entering the eye, but it will not limit the amount of light per area on the retina, which is what bothers the eye after all and makes it squint.
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Thanks for the explanation, David
smile.gif


Now, let me ask another question:

exit pupil = objective diameter/magnification

can you explain why the exit pupil numbers in the premier 3-15x50 scope don't match this formula?

Exit Pupil: 3x=11.2mm, 15x=3.4mm

at 3X it should be 16.67 mm...

is the lower magnification larger than 3X, there light baffles obstructing the view, or???
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

TiroFijo,

the effective objective diameter decrases slightly when you approach the low end of the magnification range. It is important to note that this is not a linear decrease of the effective objective diameter from high power down, it only starts at about 4x-5x on the 3-15x, meaning that you always have the biggest possible exit pupil on higher magnifications for maximum light transmission. On low power the exit pupil is way bigger than the eye pupil anyway.
You can easily observe this effect if you set your scope to a given power and look through the <span style="font-style: italic">objective</span> at a bright background from far away, ideally infinity, which is not too practical, so let's say at least 10-15 feet away. You will see your effective objective diameter.

As to the reason for this I don't feel comfortable making a comment other than that it is a property of the optical design.

Scopes can also look interesting from the front (images are not modified, just different camera focus!), but you should take it off the gun or <span style="font-weight: bold">really</span> make sure the gun is unloaded.
eek.gif


3-15xDSR.jpg
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

David, I know the effective exit pupil ussually decreases on the low end magnification, and it is not really needed there since it is very large anyway. Some scopes like the nightforce NSX do have an exit pupil that correlates exactly with their magnification range, but most don´t.

<span style="font-style: italic">In your case the difference is much greater than usual</span>, without going into technical details, can you at least tell us if the scope magnification is a <span style="font-weight: bold">true 3X</span> (or nominal) at the low end?

Thanks in advance
smile.gif


 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

TiroFijo,

to the best of my knowledge the magnifications have been verified by measurements on production units. You can also judge the FOV at any given power by using the additional hashmarks on the thick posts of the Gen2 reticle. Setting the scope to lets say 10x by adjusting to ~42mils of FOV also works if you don't want to take your eyes off the target to look at the power ring.
smile.gif
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Thanks for the info, David, very interesting stuff. Just to clarify, it makes sense to me that it's the edges of the reticle you see on FFP scopes given its location (and you can sort of tell that's what you're seeing by looking at it).

But I figured it wasn't the reticle itself in SFP scopes since they're in the eyepiece and larger but basically the front of the erector itself that you see. Is that right?
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But I figured it wasn't the reticle itself in SFP scopes since they're in the eyepiece and larger but basically the front of the erector itself that you see. Is that right? </div></div>
That's correct Jon, if you see FOV choke down in a SFP scope, this should be due to a field stop at the front of the erector that is placed in the first focal plane.
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

The S&B stands out in many areas; so I don't the lack of gain of FOV for .5 power get to me! I hope you don't loose too much sleep!
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3-15xDSR.jpg
</div></div>

That scope looks canted to me.....optical illusion?? :))
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Looks to me like only the side-opening lens cap is not quite square with the rest of the world, so I think any apparent cant of the scope turrets or reticle is an optical delusion.

What I want to know is, what cool bipod is that!? Might come in handy for my LR-308.
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Night shift...killing time...

scope1.png
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

That's pretty neat JL.

Any chance of another line across the top and bottom of the fore-end? Still not convinced its straight.....
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

The scope was level, at least it was mounted level in the one-piece mount and it was used on several rifles without noticing any cant. The DSR, especially from this perspective, does not really lend itself to judging if the scope is canted.
wink.gif


The bipod is the DSR bipod that mounts to the forend top rail and lets the rifle "hang" in the bipod rather than sit on it, thereby stabilizing itself. I think the bipod alone is ~1000$.

dsr1.jpg
 
Re: Calling S&B PMII 3-12 owners

Certainly looks like a serious rifle...congrats!

Re: cant. I guess it is either an illusion or it's time for me to visit the optican again! :))