Night Vision Can any type of laser be seen with a Thermal scope?
- Thread starter TacBlade
- Start date
I would imagine so as it is a heat source, but if you can afford a thermal scope surely you can afford a proper Target illuminator
There are very few pointers available that can be seen through thermal scopes. I'm familiar with just one. However, I don't believe that they are commercially available yet.
Max Rivkin
N-Vision Optics
[email protected]
N-VISION OPTICS
Max Rivkin
N-Vision Optics
[email protected]
N-VISION OPTICS
I've never seen a laser that will work with a thermal sight. None of the aiming lasers work at a power level that will cause heating of a surface such that it leaves a thermal signature.
I was going to say "If that shit is on fire after you lase it...you can see it on the thermal. Otherwise nope."
why not put it in front of your normal scope?
No. Visible lasers and near to middle infrared lasers used with night vision do not produce a trace or projection (i.e. dot) that is visible to thermal imagers. There are far infrared lasers that have sufficient signature on their beam trace and projections to be detected by thermal imagers, but are not portable due to the massive amount of input current needed.
IR-V
IR-V: There are portable/weapon mountable versions coming to the market very soon (I had a chance to play with functional prototypes) with total weight about one pound.
Max Rivkin
N-Vision Optics
[email protected]
N-VISION OPTICS
Max Rivkin
N-Vision Optics
[email protected]
N-VISION OPTICS
Okay, I was researching night vision for a purchase I just made. What I came across was that there are in fact thermal lasers, I think the TCAD is one of them? That rings a bell, anyway. Now what it is supposed to do, the way I hear tell of it (they make this thing sound almost like alien technology or magic) is to generate a beam far out of the 800 some odd nm wavelength used for the PEQ-2A (1500+nm?) in addition to being a laser range finder, IR pointer/illuminator --this thing does it all. So you can't see 'em with NODs. In addition, the target can't see the designator either, even with thermal himself, he can't see the beam like he would with the PEQ-2A and NODs. This is because the this "laser" works by not illuminating the dust in the air (due to the wavelength?) and thus just projects a spot on the target. No beam.
But what still doesn't make sense to me is, that if they both had thermal and aimed at each other, then if your thermal scope is aimed right about his illuminator, how can you NOT see that? I guess I just don't understand all there is to it here, or maybe some of the info was misinfo. Anyway, the way they explain it, is that this new thermal designator is just as covert as using iron sights --the enemy can't tell he's marked. I guess it may have to do with the electronics; if they don't get hot and the dust doesn't heat up and isn't illuminated at all, well, I guess it would be invisible until it hit something it could heat up.
It was mentioned that the device can be felt on bare skin, a long way off too, but that for that to happen the individual would need to be unclothed and then aware that the warms spot on his chest was in fact a 12" thermal laser aimed from 1000m.
I also can't help but wonder if this came out of the program to build a heat ray. They were trying to build an invisible heat ray that would cause sun burns through clothes, instantly. It basically heats up your very outer skin to super hot so you'll get out of the way without being injured. I think it was millimeter wave technology? Well, I could see that getting adapted to this. Could be wrong, but one of these theories has to be close.
I also know the FLIR T50 is made in two models. One has a laser built in, the restricted one, one doesn't. Now what I read didn't elaborate on the laser, but I can't imagine making a FLIR clip on that uses a regular Class 3 laser, I'd imagine it is thermal too.
Truly remarkable technology. Throw that TCAD on along with a PSQ-20 and you are one hell of a contender after dark, in the woods with fog and overcast, maybe a bit of rain. TCAD was brought up on here a few years ago, but I think it is drawing close that they are going to issue them. Until units got PSQ-20's, they didn't really need 'em.
Don't expect to be able to get one anytime soon. If you want one that bad, you'll likely have to make it yourself.
But what still doesn't make sense to me is, that if they both had thermal and aimed at each other, then if your thermal scope is aimed right about his illuminator, how can you NOT see that? I guess I just don't understand all there is to it here, or maybe some of the info was misinfo. Anyway, the way they explain it, is that this new thermal designator is just as covert as using iron sights --the enemy can't tell he's marked. I guess it may have to do with the electronics; if they don't get hot and the dust doesn't heat up and isn't illuminated at all, well, I guess it would be invisible until it hit something it could heat up.
It was mentioned that the device can be felt on bare skin, a long way off too, but that for that to happen the individual would need to be unclothed and then aware that the warms spot on his chest was in fact a 12" thermal laser aimed from 1000m.
I also can't help but wonder if this came out of the program to build a heat ray. They were trying to build an invisible heat ray that would cause sun burns through clothes, instantly. It basically heats up your very outer skin to super hot so you'll get out of the way without being injured. I think it was millimeter wave technology? Well, I could see that getting adapted to this. Could be wrong, but one of these theories has to be close.
I also know the FLIR T50 is made in two models. One has a laser built in, the restricted one, one doesn't. Now what I read didn't elaborate on the laser, but I can't imagine making a FLIR clip on that uses a regular Class 3 laser, I'd imagine it is thermal too.
Truly remarkable technology. Throw that TCAD on along with a PSQ-20 and you are one hell of a contender after dark, in the woods with fog and overcast, maybe a bit of rain. TCAD was brought up on here a few years ago, but I think it is drawing close that they are going to issue them. Until units got PSQ-20's, they didn't really need 'em.
Don't expect to be able to get one anytime soon. If you want one that bad, you'll likely have to make it yourself.
I'm a bit lost at the replies to your post. But I have a T60 with laser and I have no problems seeing it on my thermal.
I'm wondering if the new laser technology is in the UVnm range.
yes and no i guess, visible laser has different band than IR. but laser generally produce thermal radiation which can detect by IR, but the wavelength of the laser is not detectable by laser.
we can seen wavelength from 400-700nm, IR is in 700nm-1mm range. so green laser is in 500nm, while the red is in 600-700nm range, but because near-ir filter usually overlapping between red/IR, so the sensor usually can detect red laser in 650nm+ range.
so if your ir scope is from near-ir to some other range than it should be able to see red laser. but the intensity might not be too great
Last edited:
That would be awesome but I don't see it happening.
Think of it like this. If your running white hot, the laser would obviously be white. The ground black. You see the hog you ease your laser up to the hog and it disappears when you hit the hog because its white and the laser is also.
Unless the laser is cold, which to my knowledge isn't possible but even then you would only be able to see it if it were on something hot.
LaserMax has various configurations being evaluated by US armed forces
read about it here
LaserMax Delivers Thermal Laser Prototype to US Navy | ArmsVault
read about it here
LaserMax Delivers Thermal Laser Prototype to US Navy | ArmsVault
the IR is relation to your background, so if you aim your laser on a hot source, then you won't able to see the point contact on the hog, but you should able to see the trace of laser provide the laser has some thermal radiation against background air, or your IR scope has overlapping region of the wavelength.
I apologize if this necro thread reanimation is covered elsewhere, I searched and this was the closest to my question.
The link in the thread no longer works and LaserMax goes 404 also.
I found this link to the original 2013 article:
"LaserMax Delivers Thermal Laser Prototype to U.S. Navy
LaserMax® today announced delivery of a Thermal Collimated Aiming Device prototype to the Naval Surface Warfare Center, as part of a development contract with the U.S. Navy for proprietary out-of-band laser technology.
April 26, 2013 (Rochester, NY) – LaserMax® today announced delivery of a Thermal Collimated Aiming Device (TCAD) prototype to the Naval Surface Warfare Center, as part of a development contract (Solicitation N0016410RJQ60) with the U.S. Navy for proprietary out-of-band laser technology. Tested to withstand both harsh environmental conditions and the rigors of battle, LaserMax’s TCAD utilizes a “first of its kind” application of Quantum Cascade Laser technology that will enable armed forces to effectively target enemy combatants without sacrificing covert positioning. Designed to complement existing military equipment inventory, the TCAD prototype interfaces with Long Wave Thermal Imagers currently issued to U.S. Special Operations units, offering a distinct tactical advantage expected to prevent American casualties. "
So my question is, did anything actually reach the consumer market yet?
Particularly does anything work with the Nox?
The obvious advantage......is....obvious...for the same reason IR with NV.
Thanks
ETA:
I scrounged around some more, looks like this is waaay out of my price range.
Thank you so much for the Nox reviews also wigwamitus.
Older thread, 2017 answers:
www.snipershide.com
The link in the thread no longer works and LaserMax goes 404 also.
I found this link to the original 2013 article:
"LaserMax Delivers Thermal Laser Prototype to U.S. Navy
LaserMax® today announced delivery of a Thermal Collimated Aiming Device prototype to the Naval Surface Warfare Center, as part of a development contract with the U.S. Navy for proprietary out-of-band laser technology.
April 26, 2013 (Rochester, NY) – LaserMax® today announced delivery of a Thermal Collimated Aiming Device (TCAD) prototype to the Naval Surface Warfare Center, as part of a development contract (Solicitation N0016410RJQ60) with the U.S. Navy for proprietary out-of-band laser technology. Tested to withstand both harsh environmental conditions and the rigors of battle, LaserMax’s TCAD utilizes a “first of its kind” application of Quantum Cascade Laser technology that will enable armed forces to effectively target enemy combatants without sacrificing covert positioning. Designed to complement existing military equipment inventory, the TCAD prototype interfaces with Long Wave Thermal Imagers currently issued to U.S. Special Operations units, offering a distinct tactical advantage expected to prevent American casualties. "
So my question is, did anything actually reach the consumer market yet?
Particularly does anything work with the Nox?
The obvious advantage......is....obvious...for the same reason IR with NV.
Thanks
ETA:
I scrounged around some more, looks like this is waaay out of my price range.
Thank you so much for the Nox reviews also wigwamitus.
Older thread, 2017 answers:
Night Vision - TCAD - Thermal Aiming Device ( Thermal Laser Ptr )
Ok, this is just a summary of some news I posted on another forum, but thought a crosspost here might be of interest. Seems that the US .MIL has developed a new toy - the TCAD - or Thermal Collimated Aiming Device. This will replace the AN/PEQ2A and can be seen by the Clip On Night Vision...
www.snipershide.com Laser max had a contract to work on the idea ... it seems like it is coming along ...
this is the heavy weapon version
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/defense.lasermax.com\/portals\/4\/mwal.jpg"}[/IMG2]
==
there are several different versions .. this is the "carbine" version ...
==
Here is a beacon version
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/defense.lasermax.com\/portals\/4\/beacon.jpg"}[/IMG2]
==
And there is the handheld version
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/defense.lasermax.com\/portals\/4\/mhm.jpg"}[/IMG2]
==
On the laser max website, the beacon and handheld versions show a price of $60k. The weapons mountable versions show a price of "P.O.R."
==
Anyway, it does look like the project is moving along ... well actually more like DONE for the original scope.
http://defense.lasermax.com/Products.aspx
Last edited:
Updates ?
Whether or not it can is not the right question. The question would be, "Why would you do such a thing?" and the answer would be that you don't know but it seemed like a neat idea in your head. The whole point of thermal is that it's not dependent on a source of illumination, whether that be ambient starlight/moonlight or from active illumination, like I^2 NV is. Seems a bit like putting a barbecue on a submarine. One day the fusion clip-on's will come out and we'll all be able to stop having these sorts of discussions.
It’s actually quite a valid request/desire:
Thermal beats night vision… in spades… for most uses…
But if you run thermal helmet mounted (find bad guys worlds faster than night vision) you can’t quickly engage them when you find them.
Thus, the desire for a laser that the thermal can see. It has nothing to do with illumination and everything to do with fast aiming.
Thermal beats night vision… in spades… for most uses…
But if you run thermal helmet mounted (find bad guys worlds faster than night vision) you can’t quickly engage them when you find them.
Thus, the desire for a laser that the thermal can see. It has nothing to do with illumination and everything to do with fast aiming.
Oh my, now I see there are TWO necro threads on this same topic going ... I'll cross post a link to the other one here
www.snipershide.com
==
So lasers visible by thermal have been "available" for at least 5 years ...
www.lmd-corp.com
(download the spec sheet to see there are both LWIR and MWIR models)
Back then I recall finding a pricing sheet on the Laser Max Defense website that quoted $60k as the price for the carbine laser, so these critters would definitely not be free, even if chinese ones were available commercially, which they might be one day. But even at $30k or $20k I can't see them being commercially viable.
==
Fast aiming ?
I was not on any of the design teams for any of the original COTIs that came out oh a decade-ish ago. So IDK what problem(s) they were trying to solve, but I do know what problem they solve for me and "FAST AIMING" is definitely it !
And that's why I have 3 of them currently !! And have had 3 others as well.
At any distance most people would be likely to be able to hit a target with a laser and needing fast aiming (meaning you were on the move and/or standing up) ... so maybe 150 yds, the COTI works. PID definitely isn't OASYS like. But you've got at least one pvs-14 up there as well, so between the coti and the 14 you've got a chance of PIDing any critter large enough to be a threat.
And at inside 25yds, like in the woods or a building, you've got a MUCH better chance of "fast PIDing".
You don't even have to pull up to aim/fire with laser, if moving in low ready, you're already shouldered, which is still a good idea, so you just aim with the laser and shoot. I've done this many times on coons, opossum, yotes, etc. usually in the woods, near the coop in KS, most shots inside 50yds. In most cases, the detection, PID, aiming and shot fired was seemingly instantaneous, sub-second.
So the COTI gives you fast aiming !
Now if you ALSO want long distance thermal PID with oasys like image - that's a different story !! The only solution I've come up with for both, is both !
So 14 + COTI on right eye and Skeet on left eye.
Night Vision - TCAD - Thermal Aiming Device ( Thermal Laser Ptr )
Ok, this is just a summary of some news I posted on another forum, but thought a crosspost here might be of interest. Seems that the US .MIL has developed a new toy - the TCAD - or Thermal Collimated Aiming Device. This will replace the AN/PEQ2A and can be seen by the Clip On Night Vision...
www.snipershide.com ==
So lasers visible by thermal have been "available" for at least 5 years ...
Carbine Thermal Aiming Laser (CTAL) - LaserMaxDefense (LMD)
The CTAL operates in the thermal range and is designed for use with fielded thermal imagers, fully adjustable for windage and elevation.
www.lmd-corp.com (download the spec sheet to see there are both LWIR and MWIR models)
Back then I recall finding a pricing sheet on the Laser Max Defense website that quoted $60k as the price for the carbine laser, so these critters would definitely not be free, even if chinese ones were available commercially, which they might be one day. But even at $30k or $20k I can't see them being commercially viable.
==
Fast aiming ?
I was not on any of the design teams for any of the original COTIs that came out oh a decade-ish ago. So IDK what problem(s) they were trying to solve, but I do know what problem they solve for me and "FAST AIMING" is definitely it !
And that's why I have 3 of them currently !! And have had 3 others as well.
At any distance most people would be likely to be able to hit a target with a laser and needing fast aiming (meaning you were on the move and/or standing up) ... so maybe 150 yds, the COTI works. PID definitely isn't OASYS like. But you've got at least one pvs-14 up there as well, so between the coti and the 14 you've got a chance of PIDing any critter large enough to be a threat.
And at inside 25yds, like in the woods or a building, you've got a MUCH better chance of "fast PIDing".
You don't even have to pull up to aim/fire with laser, if moving in low ready, you're already shouldered, which is still a good idea, so you just aim with the laser and shoot. I've done this many times on coons, opossum, yotes, etc. usually in the woods, near the coop in KS, most shots inside 50yds. In most cases, the detection, PID, aiming and shot fired was seemingly instantaneous, sub-second.
So the COTI gives you fast aiming !
Now if you ALSO want long distance thermal PID with oasys like image - that's a different story !! The only solution I've come up with for both, is both !
So 14 + COTI on right eye and Skeet on left eye.
Similar threads
