Can I really be this bad?

Rastoff

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I consider myself a beginner when it comes to precision shooting.

I'm a lefty and I've always wanted a left hand bolt gun. I found Uintah Precision who makes a left hand bolt action upper that mates with an AR10 (LR308) lower. I bought a 24" barreled upper chambered in .308Win. Had some trouble with it, contacted Uintah Precision and they said to send it back. They replaced the barrel with a 20" heavier profile barrel.

When I got it back, I went to the range, zeroed the scope at 100 yards and then shot this group with Federal Gold Medal factory 168gr rounds:


Nothing to crow about, but well within the stated accuracy of the gun; I was happy. There were a bunch of people at the range so I left after that one group.

That evening I made up some of my own loads to start honing in on what would work best. I used Nosler Custom Competition 168gr HPBT bullets. The powder is IMR 4064 and I loaded with a spread of powder weights; 41.5gr, 42.5gr, 43.5gr, 44.5gr and 45.5gr. I made 5 rounds of each.

Today I went to the range to try the new loads. Had the range to myself. Here is the horrific result:


I have zoomed in images of each group if anyone wants/needs them. I just thought this would be easier to discuss my issues.

Groups 1-5 are with my hand loads. They are all terrible. There was a little wind, about 0-5MPH and from behind me so, I can't blame the wind.

I wanted to get the "cold bore" issue out of my first group. To do this, I took one shot with a Federal Gold Medal 168gr factory round. That shot is next to the "Cold Bore / Zero" diamond on the upper left piece of paper. As you can see, it's right next to the diamond so, I thought things would go well.
The first group was much larger than I expected, but centered OK around the POA.
Groups 2, 3 and 4 just kept getting bigger, but were still not far off the center of POA.
Group 5 is interesting. It's slightly tighter than group 4, but it is more than an inch below POA. Why is it so low?

At this point I'm frustrated. Why was the group from yesterday good, the cold bore shot from today pretty close to POA, but everything else is terrible? Can my hand loads be this bad? Does my gun just not like Nosler bullets? Am I really this bad of a shot?

Well, I have some more of the factory stuff with me so I decide to try a few of those. Here's where it went completely off the rails.

I try to use the cold bore diamond on the paper marked 44.5gr as an aiming point. I fire one shot, but I don't see any hole in the paper. Hmmm, even if I'm a whole MIL off, I should see a hole. Then I notice a hole at the bottom of the page. At first I thought it was just on the target from someone else that is behind my target, but I can see that the edge of the paper is ripped. Definitely my shot. I take a second shot and it's just to the right of the first that ripped the edge (the shot just below those two is not mine). Wait just a cotton pickin' minute here. How can it be that far off?

So, I decide to try to get another group, but if I'm hitting low, let me aim higher. For group 6 I used the bottom right diamond of the upper right paper for my POA. This resulted in group 6 clustering near the cold bore diamond of the target below it. This is not a bad group for me. It's .53MOA, BUT IT'S 4.8" BELOW THE POA!!!

I have two rounds left and decide to try once again. Enter group 7. Yeah, it's only two rounds, but it's also super low at -4.9" AND it's 1.2MOA huge. More rounds won't make it smaller.

I'm at my wit's end. Either I'm a horrible shot and should take up knitting instead or something has come loose.

Here's a concise list of my equipment:
Uintah Precision UPR10-LH upper in .308Win, 20" length
Precision Armament M4-72 muzzle brake
Aero Precision lower
Timney AR Calvin Elite Single Stage Trigger
Magpul PRS stock
Accushot Monopod
Magpul Bipod
Vortex Razor HD Gen II 3-18x50, EBR 2 MRAD reticle
Vortex 34mm Pro Cantilever mount

I was shooting off a bench while seated on a sturdy stool. There is a covering over the benches so, I was in the shade.

I plan on calling Vortex on Monday, but I don't think it's the scope. All screws are tight. Nothing is rattling in the scope.

I have no idea what's going on. I've shot .3" groups at 700 yards with a different rifle so, I know I'm capable of shooting good groups. I just don't know what could be going on here. As I said, I consider myself to be a beginner at this. I'm open to anything that might help.
 

want2learn

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i'm certainly no expert but i'm slowly getting better. i face a very similar struggle which has at times been frustrating. I thought i'd adapt to rifle quickly and well as i'm a pretty ok pistol and shotgun shooter. I should also admit that some days i shoot much worse than others...or rather some days i shoot much better than other days...why? i don't always know but all in all i'm better than a month ago or a year ago...still a work in progress.

i should state that if you're getting .7 MOA and sometimes better then you've got a very nice platform on which to build.


while it's always tough to rule in or out all the different variables that can account for some of what you're seeing. that said, i think it's always good to go back to the basics. tightening up everything to spec is a great idea. if you happen to have another scope perhaps you could try mounting it on this rifle to at least eliminate some of the potential variables but a .5MOA with factory ammo is pretty suggestive of satisfactory optic considerations.

you mentioned that with another rifle you shot much better so maybe it's getting used to and improving ergonomic considerations with this new platform.....establishing a natural point of aim in addition to maybe start working on perfecting technique with a left handed rifle, trigger control, breathing, etc. Mr. Galli's book has a very nice section on this by the way.

i'd probably start out with just working with good quality factory loads

then move on to effecting awesome groups with reloading.

there are a couple of nice discussions regarding load development both with and without a chronograph....those helped me a lot, once i settled on a satisfactory load i then worked on projectile seating depth which really helped tighten groups....and most recently the use of a mandril expander seemed to account for some further improvement

just some thoughts....fun if sometimes frustrating journey.
 
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TxWelder35

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Why are you loading powder charges so far apart? Did you chrono any of them? How did you arrive at your seating depth? How much neck tension do you have? How far did you bump the shoulders back? How are you weighing your powder charge?
 
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Rastoff

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Hornady's recommendation is 41.5gr - 45.9gr of IMR 4064. So, I made some loads to cover that spread to see how they would work in my rifle. Do you have a better suggestion?

No, I have no chronographed them yet.

Set my seating depth based on the factory cartridges.

I resized the cases using the resizing die. I don't know how to measure neck tension or how far the shoulders are "bumped" back. I have a .308Win check gauge, but I don't rely on that. If I'm missing something, I welcome instruction.

I weighed the powder charge with a Franklin Armory Intellidrop. I'm a Metrologist by trade and have calibrated/validated the balance to ensure it's giving repeatable, reproducible and accurate measures.
 

TxWelder35

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Hornady's recommendation is 41.5gr - 45.9gr of IMR 4064. So, I made some loads to cover that spread to see how they would work in my rifle. Do you have a better suggestion?

No, I have no chronographed them yet.

Set my seating depth based on the factory cartridges.

I resized the cases using the resizing die. I don't know how to measure neck tension or how far the shoulders are "bumped" back. I have a .308Win check gauge, but I don't rely on that. If I'm missing something, I welcome instruction.

I weighed the powder charge with a Franklin Armory Intellidrop. I'm a Metrologist by trade and have calibrated/validated the balance to ensure it's giving repeatable, reproducible and accurate measures.
Sounds like you need to go do some reading and learning on reloading before you go out and try again. Also get a good chrono. Magnetospeed or a Labradar.

More goes into it than ram the brass through the die at a random set up, trying powder charges 1 grain apart and smashing a bullet on top at a random seating depth and expecting good results.
 

Rastoff

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OK, that was no help.

The resizing die was set up using a factory load, not just rammed through the die at some random set up. This is how Dillon recommends to set it up.

The depth is not random. It's based on the OAL. How do you determine the depth you use?

What is the point of chronographing them now? The muzzle velocity is important to see if the loads are consistent, but that should show at the target as well, right?

I came here to learn. As I said before, if you have some helpful suggestions, I'm listening. I notice that you didn't answer my question so, I'll ask again; how do you determine what powder charge to use while building up a load? If you have a better way, I'd love to hear it.
 

TxWelder35

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I would have to write a book to answer your questions in full. The reloading forums on here have a ton of knowledge in them. I would start by reading the pinned threads. I gained all my knowledge about reloading from hour and hours of reading on this website.

You not knowing how much you bumped the shoulders or neck tension shows that you are no where near ready to start loading yet and need to keep reading. Reloading is a deep rabbit hole
 

jomiba

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Are you dead set on using the nosler? If youre going to copy a factory load you might want to at least use the same bullet. Try your loads again with the 168 gr smk.

Did you get any pressure signs with the loads you worked up to? Maybe you need to load them a little hotter
 

Shootin Stuff

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Hornady's recommendation is 41.5gr - 45.9gr of IMR 4064. So, I made some loads to cover that spread to see how they would work in my rifle. Do you have a better suggestion?

No, I have no chronographed them yet.

Set my seating depth based on the factory cartridges.

I resized the cases using the resizing die. I don't know how to measure neck tension or how far the shoulders are "bumped" back. I have a .308Win check gauge, but I don't rely on that. If I'm missing something, I welcome instruction.

I weighed the powder charge with a Franklin Armory Intellidrop. I'm a Metrologist by trade and have calibrated/validated the balance to ensure it's giving repeatable, reproducible and accurate measures.
Take this as advise to stop loading right now and learn more about the process rather than a straight up insult, but you are a Metrologist and the ONLY known value in your reloading process is your SCALE!?!?!?

You need to do A LOT more reading on the subject of reloading before even thinking about going near your reloading press again.
 

jomiba

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The hornady lock n load bullet comparator helps measure shoulder bump and also bullet seating length which makes me think of another question. Are you seating off the front of the bullet or the ogive?
 
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Rastoff

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Take this as advise to stop loading right now and learn more about the process rather than a straight up insult, but you are a Metrologist and the ONLY known value in your reloading process is your SCALE!?!?!?

You need to do A LOT more reading on the subject of reloading before even thinking about going near your reloading press again.
Um, maybe you missed what I said. I don't know why you think the powder weight is the only measurement. I may not be using the right terminology.
 

Rastoff

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Are you dead set on using the nosler? If youre going to copy a factory load you might want to at least use the same bullet. Try your loads again with the 168 gr smk.

Did you get any pressure signs with the loads you worked up to? Maybe you need to load them a little hotter
No, not set on the Nosler. It's just what was available at the time. I'd like to get some SMK bullets and will endeavor to do just that.

At the risk of being attacked again, what do you mean by pressure signs? Flattening of the primer? Damaged casings? If that's what you mean, no. All the casings and primers looked normal. By normal I mean they looked just like the factory ammo after being fired.


The hornady lock n load bullet comparator helps measure shoulder bump and also bullet seating length which makes me think of another question. Are you seating off the front of the bullet or the ogive?
I'm measuring off the front of the bullet. I haven't tried to seat them according to the ogive with this rifle yet.
 

Shootin Stuff

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Um, maybe you missed what I said. I don't know why you think the powder weight is the only measurement. I may not be using the right terminology.
exhibit A:

No, I have no chronographed them yet.

Set my seating depth based on the factory cartridges.

I don't know how to measure neck tension

or how far the shoulders are "bumped" back.

I have a .308Win check gauge, but I don't rely on that.
Please, what am I missing?
 

Rastoff

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Please, what am I missing?
What we have here is failure to communicate.

I measured the cases. All of the cases that were too short, I'm not using. None were too long.
I measured the neck diameter. I guess I got the terminology wrong. What I'm seeing is about .003" difference between resized and seated bullet.
I measured the depth by using the factory OAL as a starting point. I know how to set the round using the ogive, but saw no reason to do that considering I was getting good groups with factory ammo. So, I used that depth.

Is that better?
 

Rastoff

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One more thing...

No, I'm not measuring the amount of bumped back shoulder. I used the method of setting the resizing die initially with a factory load. Then I adjusted it until a resized case fit in the chamber easily. I got that method on this site. It doesn't tell me the exact measurement between a fired case and a resized case. I don't have a bullet comparator. Don't jump on me for asking, but how does knowing how much a case is resized help in the process?
 

TxWelder35

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What we have here is failure to communicate.

I measured the cases. All of the cases that were too short, I'm not using. None were too long.
I measured the neck diameter. I guess I got the terminology wrong. What I'm seeing is about .003" difference between resized and seated bullet.
I measured the depth by using the factory OAL as a starting point. I know how to set the round using the ogive, but saw no reason to do that considering I was getting good groups with factory ammo. So, I used that depth.

Is that better?
2 different bullets are not going to measure the same distance from base to ogive set at the same over all length.

just because one bullet type shoots good at one depth doesn’t mean than a completely different bullet will also.

you need to know your velocity to Find the best sd/es numbers at a certain powder charge. At 1 grain Increments you are probably completely missing a node.

you have a lot to learn based on your posts so far. Step away from the press and go start reading. If you are a book reader Buy a reloading manual and read up.
 
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Bundy

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The problem here is, everyone responding to your post forgot what is was like when they first started loading and shooting, none of us knew jack shit about ogive, bullet comparators, etc. We got a book, a press, some dies, and a set of dial calipers, and we loaded. So just stay within the parameters of your book and try different powders and bullets, ask a few questions if you get in a bind, and pretty soon you’ll find a load your rifle likes, it can get pretty rough on here at times, but do more looking than talking and you’ll be able to sort through the bullshit and learn some good stuff. Good luck and don’t blow your hand off!
 

TxWelder35

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I typically load in .3

Seriously, I lined the reloading forum a couple posts up. There is a plethora of information in the pinned threads alone. Start reading there to understand why you are doing certain things. You have to understand the why to be able to understand what your rifle tells you when shooting reloads.

Let’s put this is terms you understand.

Okay guys I’m going to start being a meteorologist. I have a wind meter and a thermometer. I know the thermometer is good, I tested it myself. I went outside and the wind was blowing 5 mph from the south and it’s 92f so my weather prodiction is rain 2 days from now.

That is essentially how you sound here about reloading. The above weather forecast has so much information and knowledge missing that I’m no where close to even being able to think about putting a forecast together.

Go do some reading before you try anything else on your bench.
 

jomiba

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Measuring off the ogive is a must in my opinion as well as consistent shoulder bump, especially in a semi auto. The reason being is there is much more discrepancy in the length of the bullet to the tip then there is to the ogive. Consistent shoulder bump is important because in a semi auto you cant feel the differences in the amount of force it takes to chamber the round as well as a bolt gun.

If youre not seeing any pressure signs whatsoever with the noslers, ie. flattened, cratered or popped primers, dont be afraid to work up a little over max. Just creep up and if there are any signs, stop.

If i were you, and was happy with the 168 gmm, i would measure to the ogive and work your load from there
 

Shootin Stuff

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What we have here is failure to communicate.
No, what we have is failure to stick to a straight story.

From your extremely basic chain of questions so far it is clear you have made NO effort in searching for this information and discovering for yourself.

It is OK to be a new reloader, but you need to continue shooting factory ammo until you have not only read, but comprehend what the handloading guide books are trying to tell you.

If you have specific questions or need help with an individual step of the reloading process then that is fine, people will likely jump in to help you, but I don’t think anyone will spoon feed you through a “can I really be this bad?” level of lack of understanding of what you are doing.
 

Rastoff

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Measuring off the ogive is a must in my opinion as well as consistent shoulder bump, especially in a semi auto.

If i were you, and was happy with the 168 gmm, i would measure to the ogive and work your load from there
Thank you for the info. The rifle is a bolt action. I will measure to the ogive and use that to set the depth.
 

TxWelder35

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I'm not a meteorologist.
Read that post wrong. Everything else still applies. I see you are getting frustrated. We are not trying to be assholes. There is a ton of information on this website that you can learn a lot from, we aren’t going to write you a 101 class here in this thread. Read and get a basic understanding before trying anything else. You need to understand why you are doing things if you want to be successful.
 
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jomiba

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Im sorry. Thought it was an ar10 platform. In that case we can open up a can of worms here but if youre happy with the fgmm stick with those measurements.

Measure a factory round to the shoulder using the comparator and zero your calipers. Size all your cases to that size. Do the same with the length to ogive. Work your charge from there. That should get you close
 
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want2learn

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if the weight and type of projectile suits you and you have achieved a desirable velocity for your chosen application as defined by your ballistic calculator....why not just stop there and work on seating depth?
 

Rastoff

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It's a reasonable question. I do think I have the right bullet weight and type. I am going to adjust the seating depth based on recommendations I've read here and on manufacturer's websites.

I'm not convinced I have the right velocity yet. Because I don't have consistent groups, I have to solve that problem first.
 

DocRDS

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First take a breath. Some days just suck. (I've had a few--WHERE THE HELL IS MY BULLET GOING!!!)

I think you got derailed on handloading discussion. SInce you switched back and forth, it appears not be handloads. I know as a beginning handloader I did a lot of dumb crap didn't know very much (thought I was sizing 2 thou back, yeah rounds didn't fit in chamber) , but still managed to produce good ammo (when it chambered!). Hell I still am new at it--but just absorbing things little by little. ROme wasn't built in a day, and neither is a master reloader.

Listen to what these guys are telling you, but I still would investigate--if you have another 308, see if your handloads work there. Big poi shifts like that seem to indicate something mechanical is loose--I've had it happen with my scope mount (swinging left and right).

While all the measurements quoted above are important to improving accuracy, some of the best advice I got was to reproduce Fed GMM first. Aka produce good quality ammo. Some guys do forget that starting handloading is a daunting task. Definitely want to start measuring shoulder setback first. Then yeah--do a loadbook OAL and go. It won't be THE BEST. But it will be Good. Then just start adding things piece by piece.

Just grow some thick skin, ignore the taunts and absorb (Someone told me my rifle was a shit action--really weasn't germane to the question I asked at the time, its just life).

No your handloads should not be doing that--but it appears the issue lies elsewhere. Experiment, Read, Confirm.

You started off good--handload suspect, switch to Factory---something is clearly up, lets knock that out first. Try a different rifle with your handloads. ANd try the original with factory, lets it sit, manhandle it a bit and see if POI shifts. If factory ammo groups well and your don't, well its your handloads. Start measuring to figure out what's different between your ammo and factory. But i gotta say, i don't measure neck tension or base to ogive, or know how far I seat from the lands. Right now I'm trying not to blow myself up and become a better shooter. Handloads v Factory shoot the same, so right now its the a-hole behind the rifle that needs fixin.

Relax, Make a plan, figure it out.
 
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Rastoff

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Thanks. Alas, I don't have another .308 to do any testing with. I'll have to figure it out with this one.

I'm learning. I have two things to figure out; why did I get this massive shift in POI and why are my loads so different from the factory loads?

My plan forward is to work with the factory stuff first. I can't figure out mechanically what could have caused the shift; everything was tight, not over tight though. I don't have a different scope of this type, but just to attempt to rule out the rifle, I put an ACOG on and shot some groups. I was able to shoot 3 out of 4 groups under 1MOA with a 4x scope that has a doughnut reticle. Definitely not the tool for precision shooting, but I feel that it gave at least some confidence that the rifle is solid.

Next I will re-mount the Vortex scope and go shoot some more with the Federal Gold Medal stuff. The target will tell the tale.

Then I will re-attack the hand loads. I have ordered a bullet comparator. Once it gets here, I can make some better measurements.
 

308pirate

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    Why in the fuck do people who don't know what they're doing come here to ask for help then ARGUE when they don't get the answer they thought they wanted to hear?

    @Rastoff stop fucking around with your rifle and scope and do some reading on reloading, particularly load development. It takes fucking seconds to find that stuff if you're creative with your search keywords.

    Did you see how your rifle shot the Federal match load? It's NOT your rifle that's the problem.

    You don't know what you don't know, your approach to figuring this out is all over the place, and your attitude is just not encouraging those who could help you to step up.

    I was going to throw my two cents in, but after reading your responses to others I've decided to not share anything I know.
     
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    jhedg

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    The only answer that is going to get you to where you want to be is money and time behind the rifle you dont seem to want to engulf yourself in the art of reloading, and when I say ingulf I mean engulf!!! You seem to look at reloading as a task instead of investment(investment is not only $$$) When these guys talk about ES/nodes/seating depth etc.. there is a reason, its all matters, and it all matters at different times in different rifles/w different powder/w different bullets/w different everything, your job is to find where that all comes together(INVESTMENT) Your rifle can shoot, looks like you can shoot. No one on here is going to have the magic bullet answer you are looking for. I have been reloading for over 35yrs, started off using a mallet and Lee resizers to size brass with no powder scale, but I looked at it as a fun, and a challenge because crappy rounds made me do two things go to the range more, read more (Invest) But what the hell do I know.
     

    TheOfficeT-Rex

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    I'm learning. I have two things to figure out; why did I get this massive shift in POI and why are my loads so different from the factory loads?
    Because you are changing the amount of powder in each load by 2%. That's a huge amount of difference and is causing a large bullet velocity difference. This difference is part of why they impact at different points, relative to POA. This difference is normal when testing loads of different powder charge weights.

    Your loads are different from factory loads in almost every way - powder selection, charge weight, bullet, case, case sizing, primer...

    Then I will re-attack the hand loads. I have ordered a bullet comparator. Once it gets here, I can make some better measurements.
    Do you have a reloading manual, or someone local that has experience handloading? Because while the people above sound harsh, they are trying to steer you in the right direction and ultimately save you time. If you don't want to listen to their recommendations, you need to find another medium and this forum may not be for you.
     

    Rastoff

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    Because you are changing the amount of powder in each load by 2%. That's a huge amount of difference and is causing a large bullet velocity difference.

    Your loads are different from factory loads in almost every way - powder selection, charge weight, bullet, case, case sizing, primer...
    Yes, I see that. Clearly I was missing a couple of measurements. I'm working to fix that.

    I picked my charge weights to work toward the right load. The idea was to test 5 loads, pick the best group, then use smaller increments around that weight with the next round of testing, to get closer to the right charge weight. I also realize that going in 1 grain increments is a very coarse adjustment. I wasn't just going to pick one of those five and be done. I know that more testing is necessary. Once I get a better handle on the reloading, I will try again. Not for a bit though.

    This difference is part of why they impact at different points, relative to POA. This difference is normal when testing loads of different powder charge weights.
    I guess I wasn't clear on what I was asking in the OP. I understand that different loads will have different POI. What I was asking is what would cause the same load to have two wildly different POIs. The initial cold bore shot (taken with Federal factory ammo) was only off a little. Then group 6 (also with factory ammo from the same batch) was 4.8" low. That's really what concerned me. I think something moved, but I don't know what.

    I took the scope off and tried with a different scope. Everything seemed to work OK. I have remounted the first scope and shot 4 groups today with factory ammo. They didn't exhibit the shift I saw previously. I still have no idea why there was such a dramatic shift between the cold bore and group 6.
     

    Disfunctional_Engineer

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    There's a spot in the reloading stickies that goes over how to find a node. I believe it's step 4. I have as of yet to test that method but I really want to try it. If it works you'll save a fortune in powder doing load development.
     

    NH4X

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    So.......you remounted scope and factory loads shot about as good as your 1st try.......before all hell broke loose with your groups ?

    1......something worked loose and remounting " fixed" it .

    2........scope is dying on you.....seen it happen with vortex

    3.......changing bullet type and "possible" powder type ( have no idea what fed is loading in factory loads).....without cleaning barrel between the 2 different loads......"can" have a change in poi. As much has you had .....doubtful, but keep that in mind for the future.

    I'm leanig towards scope going south

    Now concerning handloading: take the above advice and get the book that was linked to.......then after reading , once or better yet 3 times....take the author's advice and get you some tools.......measuring tools first......so you'll know what you need to know , to start learning how to be a successful handloader. Glenns books will also enable you to spot the people who know that they're talking about and the ones that think they know what they're talking about.

    That upper you have should shoot.....with the right load AND a good shooter behind it......good luck and id like to see you post results as you progress. ....or dont.....whatever happens

    Edit: get poi change worked out 1st.......shoot a box or two of factory loads to confirm.........then do lots and lots of reading about handloading......ask questions in reloading section if you dont fully understand what you've read BEFORE you pull that press handle again. Folks here will help you but you have to put in some reading because right now.......you dont know, what you dont know
     
    Last edited:

    308pirate

    Gunny Sergeant
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  • Apr 25, 2017
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    Edit: get poi change worked out 1st.......shoot a box or two of factory loads to confirm.........then do lots and lots of reading about handloading......ask questions in reloading section if you dont fully understand what you've read BEFORE you pull that press handle again. Folks here will help you but you have to put in some reading because right now.......you dont know, what you dont know
    +1
     

    Rastoff

    Private
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    Sep 7, 2013
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    So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
    So.......you remounted scope and factory loads shot about as good as your 1st try.......before all hell broke loose with your groups ?

    1......something worked loose and remounting " fixed" it .

    2........scope is dying on you.....seen it happen with vortex
    These are my thoughts as well. However, whatever worked it's way loose is a mystery. Everything was tight when I checked immediately after the POI shift.

    A curiosity:
    When you saw the Vortex scope die, did you ever learn what happened to it? What I can't figure is, if the scope is going bad, why would it hold OK groups and then suddenly change only to hold decent groups again? Wouldn't it just be all over the place once it had an issue?
     

    NH4X

    Master Of Sparks
    Minuteman
    May 19, 2020
    59
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    it was a friends scope.......vortex fixed it, no explanation.

    It bees like that sometimes.......shit happens in strange ways.......to answer your 2nd question.........it had us scratching our heads too.
     
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    Rocketmandb

    Gunny Sergeant
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    Nov 2, 2018
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    Others have said it, but it bears repeating. You have too many moving parts... metaphorically speaking, though potentially literally too. Get the rifle shooting decently with factory ammo first. Then start working on reloading. Take the time to learn how to do load development. Don't shortcut it.
     

    Old Dude

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    May 12, 2018
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    I am just getting into the reloading game. I have a AI stocked Rem 700 in 300wm. I started with a 208 Hor over the lowest weight H1000. I crept up in .25 grain increments. I had my bullet set back at 010. I used a dry erase marker on an empty case And bullet. That showed me where my Bullet was seating on and that my cartridge was seating on the belt. As I went up my groups shrunkto .7 Moa. Then suddenly got bigger. Scope was tight. Took the torque wrench to the chassis and found a loose bolt. Torqued back to specs and it’s all good. I am learning this with you. I learn a lot ere just reading and getting tips.
     
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