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Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

XTR

F-TR junkie
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Sep 4, 2010
    2,117
    1,267
    Lebanon, NH
    www.onlinehumidor.com
    Assuming that you weigh your cases after they are prepped, how much variance do you allow? +/- 1.0gr. 0.2gr?

    Is there any consensus? I just sorted a bag of new Winchesters and tossed at least a dozen that were outside of +/- 1.0 gr, but it got me to wondering just how tight should the QA be?


    This would probably make a good poll.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Well to me (might be just the one weird guy) but I don't weigh my cases and sort that way. I sort by the volume they hold by measuring the weight of the water they hold. I also measure neck thickness to monitor the work hardening. But personally I don't see how the overall weight is a major factor to separate by. Maybe I could learn something who knows. Thanks for the post cause I am curious to see what people say
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I think a grain is tight and reasonable tolerance. It is what I generally work off of. I also believe that case volume is more important...just makes more sense, but I have yet to experiment with it.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I'm hoping that my days of filling cases with water are over.

    Within headstamps, there is a good correlation between empty case weight and internal volume. I have not done the math to quantify it or see if it rises to any degree of reliability.

    Both FGMM and Hornady Match are within 1.1 grain. That's a very, very low percentage of variation for a component that weighs 162 or 182 grains, considering how they are made.

    The "Reloading for Long Range" thread here recommends sorting to within +/- 1.0 grains, for a total spread of 2.0. I see no reason to doubt that, since sorting to 1.0 grain or less has made no difference in my rifle.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I've sorted my Lapua in 0.4gr increments, but that is probably overkill.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm hoping that my days of filling cases with water are over.

    The "Reloading for Long Range" thread here recommends sorting to within +/- 1.0 grains, for a total spread of 2.0. I see no reason to doubt that, since sorting to 1.0 grain or less has made no difference in my rifle. </div></div>

    I missed that part when I went back looking for it, though I must have read it because that's where I'm drawing the line for my SMK loadings.

    I definitely sort by headstamps. I'm just wondering what others are doing to try to get consistency in their long range ammo.

    I'm far less picky about hunting loads. I hunt with a 308 too and assuming a 308 pushing 150gr hunting bullets JBM says 100fps variation in MV makes about 2.5" difference in POI at 400 yds. That's still a dead deer.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I sort by headstamps, how many times fired, then +-1grn.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Well for accurate long range consistency cause being a good shot is being consistent and that's what this whole thread is about. Case weight has nothing to do with the ballistics. The used and unused volume does. If you are wanting to segregate by 1 grain on case weight and be that specific you might as well segregate by volume. If you are just wanting to be sub MOA and not compete then do what your doing but if you want to be competitive and eliminate inconsistency in your brass then volume is the way to measure JMHO
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've sorted my Lapua in 0.4gr increments, but that is probably overkill. </div></div>

    Before I start processing the two batches of Lapua I just "inherited" through the scales exercise, what was your range of weights, and any trends in distribution?

    Did you weigh sized and decapped, or just fired? Average?

    Thanks!
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I sort by case volume of the powder I'm using. That measurement is directly accurate, any other medium requires some form of interpretation. Only then do I weigh cases, and only then to cull the extreme variances.

    Weight is not a direct indicator of case volume, other factors affect weight as well.

    But mostly, I do it once, or not at all. I'm not shoorting BR, and honestly believe that BR handloading techniques are overkill for most other shooting disciplines.

    While there is some truth to the proposal that only the best will provide the best outcomes; the simple truth is that for most shooters, their marksmanship may only fleetingly be up to the standards where ultimate ammunition perfection will buy them anything that justifies the additional cost or effort.

    Folks who can shoot 1/2MOA at all are not average, and those who can do it consistently are far more rare. I see good shooters pay 10$ each try to shoot consistenty into 2MOA at 200yd twice each month under competitive conditions, and have only seen it happen less than a handful of times in the past couple of years. That's the simple truth. Thinking that ammunition that shoots to less than that 1/2MOA will help is probably self delusion. Such delusions fuel large expenditures far more often than they fuel actual marksmanship improvements.

    Greg
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: blakheaven</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well for accurate long range consistency cause being a good shot is being consistent and that's what this whole thread is about. Case weight has nothing to do with the ballistics. The used and unused volume does. If you are wanting to segregate by 1 grain on case weight and be that specific you might as well segregate by volume. If you are just wanting to be sub MOA and not compete then do what your doing but if you want to be competitive and eliminate inconsistency in your brass then volume is the way to measure JMHO </div></div>

    I don't have the data to prove it* but the idea behind sorting cases by weight is that case weight variance is caused by wall thickness variance, and if you sort cases <span style="font-weight: bold">with the same headstamp</span> by weight then you have a group of cases with internal volume that is consistent. It makes sense to me.

    Maybe to maintain sub moa accuracy at 1000 yds I should be filling cases with water, but I'm not there yet.

    <span style="font-style: italic">* I love a good science project as much as anyone, maybe I'll develop a correlation </span>
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    ...

    But mostly, I do it once, or not at all. I'm not shoorting BR, and honestly believe that BR handloading techniques are overkill for most other shooting disciplines.

    While there is some truth to the proposal that only the best will provide the best outcomes; the simple truth is that for most shooters, their marksmanship may only fleetingly be up to the standards where ultimate ammunition perfection will buy them anything that justifies the additional cost or effort.

    Folks who can shoot 1/2MOA at all are not average, and those who can do it consistently are far more rare. Thinking that ammunition that shoots to less than that will help is probably self delusion. Such delusions fuel large expenditures far more often than they fuel marksmanship improvement.

    Greg </div></div>

    I agree completely. I work in a business where I often describe the process as: "measure with a micrometer, draw the line with chalk and cut with an axe"
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I appreciate your dedication.

    A perfect 1Kyd F Class score requiries 40rd inside or cutting a 20.8" 10-ring circle. Perfect 1Kyd F Class scores are in the same category as hen's teeth.

    I'm sure they both exists, but I've never seen any of either firsthand.

    G. David Tubb once told me that a good 100yd 1/2MOA rifle is also a good 1000yd 2MOA rifle. Now him, I'll believe...

    Greg
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I don't believe that just having the same headstamp makes much difference at all other than to determine the method of manufacturing (in commercial brass). There should be a correlation between case weight and internal capacity within cases bearing the same headstamp within the same lot number. Either way, someone on 6mmbr did just the experiment you propose and it might be worth looking at.

    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/243-win-brass-comparison-test-surprising-results/
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I see our posts crossed, and I did not mean to infer any criticism. Rather, my intent is to introduce a smidge of caution about accepting any strong belief that what a shooter/handloader does can result in anything even nearing perfection.

    It's a big world. I made my career out of reconciling computer programs with cold hard fact, and deriving some relatively reasonable generalized predictive outcomes.

    On Wall Street, and that's not making the task and easier. For example, one of my programs looked at the overal trends of business at close of day, and made a prediction about how many additional personnel would need to be called in to work early to handle massively inflated numbers of Margin Calls.

    Computer algorithms require data points in order to model reality. But the number of relevant data points usually far exceeds the amount of accurate data which can be gathered and/or can be inputted in time to render a useful output. The more accurate a computation, the more its result relates to history.

    There are (at least) two basic types of computers; Analaogue and Digital.

    Analogue computers are uniquely specific to their task (like a thermostat) and gather their own data on a contemporary basis; and can render contemporary results.

    Digital computers are generic and versatile (like a calculator), but require some sort of additional interface/intervention between the gathering and the computation of data; and this both delays results and limits the practical aspects of relating those results to actual, comprehensive facts.

    We are left with estimates. Some are good, none are actual reality.

    In this particular context, what I'm really trying to say is that there are considerable limits to how much exquisite handlading diligence can equate to realistic marksmanship imprevements.

    Greg
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Personally, unless you're shooting benchrest or some other disipline that is going to be measured by .001" or the thickness of a line on the paper, or matches out to 600 or 1,000 yards, you're wasting your time seperating by weight or water volume.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Personally, unless you're shooting benchrest or some other disipline that is going to be measured by .001" or the thickness of a line on the paper, or matches out to 600 or 1,000 yards, you're wasting your time seperating by weight or water volume. </div></div>

    Victor I'm doing 2 kinds of reloading, one is for hunting, with a .308 that means I'm probably not shooting more then 250 yds. For that I'm not being too picky; however, the other I'm trying to get into F class shooting at ORSA, that I'm getting picky over, 1000 yds is a long way.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    the only way you are going to get a difference in wall thickness or anything else in a case is this.

    1.the stretch rod that stretches the case out to its size while forming the brass is too long/short or worn out.and this can happen in any of the steps while stretching the brass for forming.even the die cavity can become worn.

    2.the coil of brass being used to make the brass is not consistent in thickness.

    the reason I say this is because I used to work at a botteling company.and when we checked the bottles out some would have thick/thin bottoms.or the sides would be thick/thin.so replaceing the stretch rod or just adjusting it would fix it most of the time.but if it wouldn't fix it.we then went to the injetion mold that the preforms came from.and most of the time we then had to add or take away some of the amount of plastic being used to make the prefom.

    this is why I do not weigh my brass.basicly the same process to make both brass cases and bottles.just different products to make them.but if I was to weigh my brass I would might use the volume method.but hey this is something that I have thought deeply of and made my mind up on.so take it with a grain of salt.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Well really it depends on whose name is on the head stamp as far as consistency between the volume of the case. If it is lapua or high name brass then maybe, but if its just re used brass from Winchester or Remington then I would look into directly measuring the volume cause its not half as crazy as some of the other BR techniques used. In reality its easy and fast.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    At the practical level, you could simply do a double blind test to determine whether sorting results in a real difference at the target. My tests gave counterintuitive results when they gave any at all. That actually doesn't mean much, since LR conditions often outweigh handloading issues. For really LR, 800yd on out, I hand weigh charges and play games with partial neck sizing in an effort to (somewhat) manage neck tension. Brass selection is less significant for me, as I do case prep regardless of brass source. Maybe I don't really make much change to the brass, but the diference is, I <span style="font-style: italic">know</span> the brass is consistent afterward. Trust, but verify, as Reagan said. For 1000yd, I'll do my case volume checky thing.

    Greg
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: johngfoster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've sorted my Lapua in 0.4gr increments, but that is probably overkill. </div></div>

    Before I start processing the two batches of Lapua I just "inherited" through the scales exercise, what was your range of weights, and any trends in distribution?

    Did you weigh sized and decapped, or just fired? Average?

    Thanks! </div></div>

    500 pieces of virgin Lapua 308 brass:
    171.5gr - 171.8gr = 28
    171.9gr - 172.2gr = 124
    172.3gr - 172.6gr = 154
    172.3gr - 173.1gr = 160
    173.2gr - 173.5gr = 34

    This was after sizing, trimming, primer pocket uniforming and flash hole deburring. A number of the case mouths were dented and needed the dents worked out before they could be loaded for the first time. Flash holes were all well-centered in the primer pockets, but most had a small burr inside the case at the flash hole.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Just a comment to others who are sorting their brass with a digital scale. Depending on the scale, the error can be more than the .4 gr you are seperating them by. I learned this brutal lesson sorting my brass and then going back and rechecking it for some unknown reason. I then found myself moving pieces between boxes 2 and 3 times. I posted a statistical study (Instantaneous GR&R 10x10 study) of the Acculab, RCBS Rangemaster and Lyman DPS3 in another post (RCBS Chargemaster VS Hornady LNL Auto Charge). My findings are the Acculab is the only scale I have been able to get access to that can measure to within + or - .05 grain. The RCBS Chargemaster is OK to within + or - .08 grains. The DPS3 and RCBS Rangemaster I tested were only good to + or - 0.2 grains on good days. I will send the Excel spreadsheet and instructions for conducting a scale accuracy study to anyone who PM's me. I'd post it if I was smart enough to know how.

    This is assuming you have very clean power for whatever digital scale you are using and your cell phone is in the next county.

    The benifits of sorting significantly improved when I changed to the Acculab. Checking ready to load cases (cleaned, sized and trimmed) I found the uniformity of water volume in weight sorted cases to be very high.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I have a bit of experience with electronic scales having worked in a lab for a significant amount of time.

    Now im not sure if its because labs get ripped off, or because reloading equipment is cheapish, but theres a big price difference between a laboratory scale and a scale used for reloading.

    Why? I dont know because IMO they both need precise amounts.

    I have a scale in front of me right now that is good for 5 decimal places (0.00001). Might give this thing a go at sorting brass one day.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    All of mine were weighed on an RCBS 5-0-5. Talk about tedious!
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a bit of experience with electronic scales having worked in a lab for a significant amount of time.

    Now im not sure if its because labs get ripped off, or because reloading equipment is cheapish, but theres a big price difference between a laboratory scale and a scale used for reloading.

    Why? I dont know because IMO they both need precise amounts.

    I have a scale in front of me right now that is good for 5 decimal places (0.00001). Might give this thing a go at sorting brass one day. </div></div> 5 decimal places of what? a lb or a grain :p
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    5 Decimal places of a gram.

    So...

    1 Gram = 15.4325 Grains
    0.00001 Gram = 0.000154324 Grains

    Regardless of the units, if you measure them on such a scale you just need to sort them by like weights.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I just weighed a sample 40 cases from 400 new Lapua .243's to see the rough spread. With those 40, they were with +/- 1.5 Sigma (+/- ~0.8grs out of ~ 172.6gr).

    I'm going to use them all.

    IF I limited the selection to +/- 1 Sigma I think the cull would have been approx. 80 cases from the 400.


    Last time I did the weighing thing it was on on 700pcs of Lapua .308 I made three batches each +/- 0.3gr. the largest group was over 350pcs.

    That works also.. but I don't think it was worth the effort.

    RJ
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Managing recoil and reading wind is way more important than weighing cases. If you must weigh to make you feel happy, fill the cases with alcohol and measure the volume of alcohol weight.

    Measuring empty cases is useless as the weight variations are usually in the base/head, not a true indicator of inside volume which is what you are looking for.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: queequeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But we all agree that weighing primers is essential, correct? </div></div>

    DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!!

    I was wondering when that one would come up. Woulda laughed out loud but the Bride is sleeping next to me while I stay up too late.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I've said this before in past posts like this, case weight doesn't mean near as much as case volume (variation). I don't worry about the weight, it's all about capacity, if you really want a low ES.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    So what happens if I have a good load with a WW case that has 57grs volume and I want to shoot the load in a Lapua case at 55grs???

    Would I have to use 2grs less of powder in the Lapua case to match the load in the WW case?? Or does it work that way??

    I have checked using fine grain powder and found the difference in the two cases is a full grain or more of powder. Thanks guys!!
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    I'd back it off 1/2 to 3/4 gn if its a load I have some experience with... otherwise 1 full grain and work back up.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: raptor99</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So what happens if I have a good load with a WW case that has 57grs volume and I want to shoot the load in a Lapua case at 55grs???

    Would I have to use 2grs less of powder in the Lapua case to match the load in the WW case?? Or does it work that way??

    I have checked using fine grain powder and found the difference in the two cases is a full grain or more of powder. Thanks guys!! </div></div>

    No, it doesn't work that way. You'd need to chrono the load in the WW cases and then adjust your powder charge to get the same velocity in the Lapua cases.

    Using powder to check case volume is not the best way to go. You need to use water, it will give you the most accurate measure of case volume.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Use at your own risk.

    I used variables to calculate this, and I DO NOT KNOW YOUR VARIABLES.

    But for a ballpark, one resource I have, in .308 with a 175 SMK and Varget powder, going from 57 gr water capacity to 55 required a charge weight reduction of 0.8 grains to keep the velocity the same.

    If it were me, I'd then start my workup at 1.6 grains lower and work back up. At my own risk.

    I'm sure that different powders and different bullets would have different results.
     
    Re: Case sorting - how much variance do you allow?

    Just my 2 cents.I have some new win brass that weighs 156 to 159.I also have some old win brass that weighs 178 ish.I cant help but think that it wont make a differance in velocity.So i seperate mine by weight and try to keep lot#s togeather.makes me feel better any way.