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Gunsmithing chambering question for gunsmiths

briang7511

Hole puncher specialist
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 10, 2013
706
127
Michigan
I have several rifles built by several different gunsmiths. I try to use the gunsmith that is the one sponsoring the matches i am shooting. One of the things i have noticed is that some have a larger chamber at max or near max tolerance headspace and some have a tighter chamber with a headspace at the minimum end of tolerance. Result is different die settings/ unable to use brass in either rifle of same caliber. What is the best way to approach or specify these dimensions when using different gunsmiths? Going to guess this is why some buy their own reamer?
 
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Yes buy your own reamer and I also take a piece of brass with me as well so they can set it pretty close to the brass. My brass doesn’t usually grow to much from new to fired and don’t have to trim much at all.
 
If headspace is the only thing you want to specify then buying your own reamer is not the answer. The headspace is not determined by the reamer, but instead by how deep the reamer is run into the chamber. The easiest way for me to match someone else's chambered headspace is for them to provide me with fired and NOT resized brass from the chamber they want to match. I would probably request that they provide fired and full length sized brass as well so I get a full picture of what they are doing.

Another option would be to purchase your own go/no-go gauge set and specify you want a certain headspace based on those gauges. For example, NO GO -.002" plus or minus .0005" would be a reasonable request. Headspace gauges do vary in dimensions slightly so that is why it is important to provide your own.
 
If headspace is the only thing you want to specify then buying your own reamer is not the answer. The headspace is not determined by the reamer, but instead by how deep the reamer is run into the chamber. The easiest way for me to match someone else's chambered headspace is for them to provide me with fired and NOT resized brass from the chamber they want to match. I would probably request that they provide fired and full length sized brass as well so I get a full picture of what they are doing.

Another option would be to purchase your own go/no-go gauge set and specify you want a certain headspace based on those gauges. For example, NO GO -.002" plus or minus .0005" would be a reasonable request. Headspace gauges do vary in dimensions slightly so that is why it is important to provide your own.


STICKY THIS /\/\/\/\
 
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Well,

If you guys can guarantee headspace to half a thou you're far better machinists than I.

Thread crush alone is a variable that, personally, I've found impossible to control to that extent.
 
Well,

If you guys can guarantee headspace to half a thou you're far better machinists than I.

Thread crush alone is a variable that, personally, I've found impossible to control to that extent.


I would agree with you 100%. One thing I've found to help significantly is to trim down the variety of barrel manufacturer's used. At the end of the day, whether X, Y, or Z makes it, the end user just wants a barrel that'll shoot well/predictably, be easy to maintenance, and deliver good mileage.

I (and clearly you) however have a little more demanding work statement. I wanted material conditions to be more consistent so that fitment became less labor intensive. For those reading this, a Bartlein does not chamber like a Lilja. A Lilja is not a Kreiger. On and on. This is not a case of one being better than the other. It's that everyone has a little different process and once you run a bunch of these, you notice things. Attempting to keep up with the changes is not an easy thing to do. Also, the steel used on your barrel today, is not the steel used 6 months or a couple years from now. Steel is no different than a loaf of bread. The recipe can vary and a machinist who pays attention will notice it.

Next was tooling. Not all threading inserts are created equal. Just because an insert is made for SS it does not mean its appropriate for threading a SS barrel tennon that must be fitted to a receiver. Its not the same thing as cranking out a thousand "whatevers" for a product being produced.

The other thing that helps (and this is for the shooters out there) is to batch your stuff. If your a guy who is burning through 10k+ rounds a year at the matches, help yourself and your chosen smith out, by getting all your barrel work done at one time. It is far, far less challenging to hang 5 sticks for one action at one time than it is for the thing to come back periodically over the year. I/whoever can set them all up "truck and trailer" this way. You take that and your brass quantity. If you get 1500 rounds on a 6mm Creed, then figure your going to load that brass probably 5 times before the primer pocket is wore out. 5x1500 is 5 barrels. So, price of admission for this is just south of $4,000.00 If you get 5 months of shooting and your at this burn rate, your costs are going to equate to $200 a weekend.

You can't fish from a boat for less than that and you sure as hell cant drag race a car. The equipment costs are actually pretty cheap by comparison. Travel, meals, and lodging is the real ass kicker.

This is what we've done for years on our "gamer" setups for the guys laying hate every weekend during the seasons. It might cost a more up front on materials, but your going to spend that money at some point anyways. Besides, most of us would be happy to offer a discounted rate for carbon copy jobs like this. I know I do at least.
 
Well,

If you guys can guarantee headspace to half a thou you're far better machinists than I.

Thread crush alone is a variable that, personally, I've found impossible to control to that extent.

I don’t think that’s a guarantee I’d make either. I could guarantee it measures that in the machine, but it’s pretty optimistic for an assembled guarantee.

If I do multiple barrels at the same time, they’ll easily be within .0005” HS of each other. All my barrels will be within zero and .002” HS (on my gauge or gauge provided) when assembled, probably more like between .0005” and .0015”, since it’ll drop on a go but not on a go+ .002”.
 
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I agree with LRI, batching your barrels is the way to go if you want true interchangeability with your brass. Especially if machined on a CNC machine, all the chambers will be essentially identical, as well as all other dimensions.
 
I have several rifles built by several different gunsmiths. I try to use the gunsmith that is the one sponsoring the matches i am shooting. One of the things i have noticed is that some have a larger chamber at max or near max tolerance headspace and some have a tighter chamber with a headspace at the minimum end of tolerance. Result is different die settings/ unable to use brass in either rifle of same caliber. What is the best way to approach or specify these dimensions when using different gunsmiths? Going to guess this is why some buy their own reamer?
Cnc most repeatable head space.
 
As has been said....if your shooting a lot and using the same caliber a lot....get your own tool. Also get your own head space gauges. I’ve seen gauges vary, reamers are not created equal even if there made to the same spec. Don’ t cut the same etc..as well as how Chad pointed out steel can vary as well in how it machines.

Doing one or several barrels talk to your smith and both of you have a understanding of the work you want done.

Even doing ammunition test barrels and I get a new customer and I’ve gotten to the point that I ask certain and specific questions. Why because too many times even though there might be a standard print spec...it’s happen too many times where one place uses a 5” breech length and the next place a 4”. Also believe it or not guys don’t understand what a +.001” dimension tolerance means. Some think it means the gauge sticks out .001” and some think it means it sticks in a .001”. Really! Or after we‘ve made a barrel I get a phone call not just on things like that but....oh I forgot to tell you....our receivers are kinda worn and we forgot to tell you not to chamber it to the spec....leave us some material on it for us and will do the final fit!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
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As has been said....if your shooting a lot and using the same caliber a lot....get your own tool. Also get your own head space gauges. I’ve seen gauges vary, reamers are not created equal even if there made to the same spec. Don’ t cut the same etc..as well as how Chad pointed out steel can vary as well in how it machines.

Doing one or several barrels talk to your smith and both of you have a understanding of the work you want done.

Even doing ammunition test barrels and I get a new customer and I’ve gotten to the point that I ask certain and specific questions. Why because too many times even though there might be a standard print spec...it’s happen too many times where one place uses a 5” breech length and the next place a 4”. Also believe it or not guys don’t understand what a +.001” dimension tolerance means. Some think it means the gauge sticks out .001” and some think it means it sticks in a .001”. Really! Or after we‘ve made a barrel I get a phone call not just on things like that but....oh I forgot to tell you....our receivers are kinda worn and we forgot to tell you not to chamber it to the spec....leave us some material on it for us and will do the final fit!

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels


An excellent point I completely overlooked. "Headspace gauges can vary".

"Can" means DO. :)

When I first opened I was hell bent to have a gauge for every cartridge I chambered. (duh, right?) Well, you get into the Palma game and you'll find yourself with 308 gauges that seem to multiply like rabbits. I think I had at least 7 or 8. An issue surfaced years ago that resulted in me throwing all of them up on the comparator. "Lightening"....never strikes twice in the same spot.