I believe our boy here is in Europe and said "m/s", meter per second. 10 meters per second is 30 feet per second so, that's definitely an achievable number and probably realistic ES for his ammo.
- Thread starter Sniper King 2020
- Start date
NOPE! He said 3m/sec, so just under 10fps. I was not misunderstanding
You're right. I could have sworn he said 10m/s....? I guess not though. Well I doubt his load is actually that then
The best part about 100 shot strings is that whole n vs. n-1 makes a near-negligible difference...
All joking aside, everything I've done has been stdev.s, under the assumption (backed by a few thousands of rounds of documented P&V and dedicated barrel life testing) that through a certain portion of barrel life the results are close enough to "the same" to count that portion as the "population" of which my specimens are a "sample" subset to be used as a predictive tool for the population. As far as which the chronograph shits out, SD is almost pointless to look at below 15-16 rounds and to be taken with a grain of salt at that point anyway... When you start looking at sample sizes large enough to make SD worth looking at, it's not a very big delineation regardless.
For example, on my PRS load for 20 shots STDEV.S is 8.1fps and STDEV.P is 7.9fps. Big deal. On a 100 shot test of factory 108 6mm ARC ammo STDEV.S is 12.69fps and STDEV.P is 12.63fps.
Filter of realistic use-case for most people: Use whichever gives you a smaller number so you feel better about what you've done.
All joking aside, everything I've done has been stdev.s, under the assumption (backed by a few thousands of rounds of documented P&V and dedicated barrel life testing) that through a certain portion of barrel life the results are close enough to "the same" to count that portion as the "population" of which my specimens are a "sample" subset to be used as a predictive tool for the population. As far as which the chronograph shits out, SD is almost pointless to look at below 15-16 rounds and to be taken with a grain of salt at that point anyway... When you start looking at sample sizes large enough to make SD worth looking at, it's not a very big delineation regardless.
For example, on my PRS load for 20 shots STDEV.S is 8.1fps and STDEV.P is 7.9fps. Big deal. On a 100 shot test of factory 108 6mm ARC ammo STDEV.S is 12.69fps and STDEV.P is 12.63fps.
Filter of realistic use-case for most people: Use whichever gives you a smaller number so you feel better about what you've done.
Sure, SD tells you how capable your ammo is, but if ammo shoots outside of my calculated required ES band I won't have a chance of winning. Hence the argument can be made that SD doesn't matter if the ES is ouside your limits.
As for stats. Arguments for using either system can be made as seen above. Personally I think using your 5-shot population stats to predict your next 300 round population is bad math.
Cal me cynical, but the only explanation I can come up with why Garmin bucks the industry trend is for the same reason bullet manufacturers for years only published inflated G1 BC numbers. To make the numbers look better to the masses.
As for stats. Arguments for using either system can be made as seen above. Personally I think using your 5-shot population stats to predict your next 300 round population is bad math.
Cal me cynical, but the only explanation I can come up with why Garmin bucks the industry trend is for the same reason bullet manufacturers for years only published inflated G1 BC numbers. To make the numbers look better to the masses.
ES is always more "rangey" than SD on a test-to-test basis. Shoot 30x of Ammo A for an ES of 42, SD of 13. Shoot 30x more of Ammo A for an ES of 57 and SD of 13.7.
Regardless of what your ES is of the sample is, the SD will paint the picture of the bell curve distribution of what your shots will be with that load in that gun. You will always produce a bell curve of shot velocities and the "picking" of which velocity any one shot will be is random-normal. There is a slight skew to this-- There are a slightly higher quantity but lower magnitude of "lower than average" velocity shots, and a slightly lower quantity but higher magnitude of "higher than average velocity" shots, so it's not exactly a perfect normal distribution but it's pretty damn close.
When you take the expected group-to-group variance of ES as a percentage of the average ES of repeated tests, it's almost always higher than the same for SD. The more shots in the group, the larger the difference (the more repeatable SD is). The only time it's not higher is in the "noise zone" below 15 specimens per test where you're basically looking at randomized nothingness with either metric.
Understandable. It's probably because he mixed the units in different posts. The first time he mentioned it earlier in the thread, he said, "within 9-10 FPS". The next time it was "below 3 M/S" (which is the same basic velocity). That's why I said it was "marvelous". You know how to use the word "marvelous"?
The best part about 100 shot strings is that whole n vs. n-1 makes a near-negligible difference...
All joking aside, everything I've done has been stdev.s, under the assumption (backed by a few thousands of rounds of documented P&V and dedicated barrel life testing) that through a certain portion of barrel life the results are close enough to "the same" to count that portion as the "population" of which my specimens are a "sample" subset to be used as a predictive tool for the population. As far as which the chronograph shits out, SD is almost pointless to look at below 15-16 rounds and to be taken with a grain of salt at that point anyway... When you start looking at sample sizes large enough to make SD worth looking at, it's not a very big delineation regardless.
For example, on my PRS load for 20 shots STDEV.S is 8.1fps and STDEV.P is 7.9fps. Big deal. On a 100 shot test of factory 108 6mm ARC ammo STDEV.S is 12.69fps and STDEV.P is 12.63fps.
Filter of realistic use-case for most people: Use whichever gives you a smaller number so you feel better about what you've done.
Agreed on all points. Hence why I challenged anyone to give an example how two different shooters each using only P and S respectively would ever have an advantage/disadvantage over the other.
And also why I specifically asked the OP why he didn't address the forum member who has advanced degrees in actual statistics agreeing that S is the appropriate use in the case of ammo. Which he's continually ignored ever since that member posted.
ES is useful for making some early eliminations (which I think is how you are using it anyway). As in, if you know you are capable of actually making ammo that is around X SD and thusly under Y ES, then you can eliminate recipes when the ES is higher than acceptable. However, ES is pretty horrible once you move past that and attempting to analyze which recipes will be more consistent over the largest amount of shots.
The biggest problem I see with people focusing on ES (and you don't seem to have this issue, just saying in general) is they don't actually understand the relationship with SD.
I.E. they will see two different recipes, both with a 5 or very close to 5sd, and then will pick the charge that has a 15es over the charge that has a 22es even though you have zero information that would show that one of those recipes is better than the other.
Sums up my reaction to both this thread and the first succinctly. Yeah cool... P vs S...
Not sure why these threads developed so much on the topic.
Garmin Xero C1 Pro vs. LabRadar
www.snipershide.com Sums up my reaction to both this thread and the first succinctly. Yeah cool... P vs S...
Not sure why these threads developed so much on the topic.
Garmin Xero C1 Pro vs. LabRadar
Anytime someone (especially when they are a known entity such as the OP) makes bold claims of how industry standards are wrong and have been wrong for 20 years.....it's going to stir debate. Regardless if correct or not.
THE NEW STANDARD IS MIL ELV TURRET, MOA WINDAGE & THE @TheHorta RETICLE
For the laffs:
NAILED IT! Competitive Marksman Reticle PERFECTED!
As y’all know, the crazy pace of reticle development sometimes seems little more than a desire to push new scope sales rather than truly help the professional and competitive marksman. No reticle has dared to address universal reticle positioning issues like Dynamic Prone and Inverted Bat...
www.snipershide.com 
Good thread but making my head hurt. By the time I finished grad school had over 21 hours of statistics classes but that was over 40 years ago and frankly forgot most of it. Its all relative and a chrono is just a tool to get you where you want to be. Interesting discussion on the method of calculation but frankly won't make a bit of difference when dialing in a load. During load development and testing have experienced SD's in the low single digits. Would that same load hold that with a string of 20 rounds in 22 minutes? Highly doubtful. Over the years I have owned many chono's including Magneto Speed, Labrader, Ohler. All have their advantages and disadvantages like any tool. Regardless of the variance SD's between the units, it would not affect my thought process in load development.
Dude, you ou found me out with my 2500 subscribers. Way more than the 2.5 million subs on pages where they post videos of the decibels of farts.
who the fuck are you idiots? Fuckin whack. Make like silent bob and just shut the fuck up with your bullshit. You’re bullshit if you claim to have even an ounce of understanding in this and make an assertion that you do. You’re the piece of shit who misleads people because your so narcissistic to not allow your profound lack of knowledge and underbidding to simply play out so you insult those who have the knowledge and understating do do so. You’re a small time piece of shit about a half an ounce. Make like like Silent Bob and STFU. Too bad moderators on this shit forum dont eliminate your biased ass. Don’t even care to find out what you don’t know while knocking those who know. Fuck you
I sense a bit of alcohol abuse and potentially some domestic violence.
Nice!
Oh look now we have the magical inferencer who thinks he can characterize people based on posts on “the hide”
. This post has been quite the study in aberrant salience to say the least
Shit forum? You know you can leave anytime right?
And we don’t “eliminate” people for having a bias or an opinion. If we did then this site wouldn’t have many members. Lol
The irony.Oh look now we have the magical inferencer who thinks he can characterize people based on posts on “the hide”
Exactly
It’s an old Nazi trick to accuse your adversary of that which you are guilty. I’d taken your last name to be more commie than nazi, but I guess there’s simps on both sides.
Yes but when I try to leave by asking if others have figured some shit out, they continue to draw me in by throwing shade and insults. I definitely love shade and insults which is how y’all keep me in orbit. I thrive on people insulting me
.Yes but when I try to leave by asking if others have figured some shit out, they continue to draw me in by throwing shade and insults. I definitely love shade and insults which is how y’all keep me in orbit. I thrive on people insulting me
This isn’t your YouTube channel. You can’t turn off comments here.
The Ban is strong with this oneI thrive on people insulting me
First, I give you mad props for the “Nazi” reference you made in a PC cancel culture tweet n many countries (unless you’re in a country that doesn’t have this culture…where are you from?”). Second, I dont blame you from knowing anything about stats and bringing politics into it. It would be the move that most 12 year old unknowing fucks would do. Thanks for being that fuck
I can only hope! It’s an accomplishment to be banned from forums. I need my metal that represents the ban!
Are you on a bridge, perchance? Like a high, high bridge? Reddish colored? Water below?
Yes, this is why turned them off and post on the hide so I can get you dickless POSs to reply
I hope so!
Never been a book geek but cool that you felt the need to post this.
Except, you’re wrong on the stats front. You’re not shooting a whole population of ammo. Every shot is a sample. The statistician even told you that. Thought that’s why you left and weren’t coming back.
Dr. Jekyll
(on a diff thread, similar subject)Mr. Hyde
Posted an image of what appears to be a book cover from the 1800s and claim not to be a book geek .Never been a book geek but cool that you felt the need to post this.
dude…okay man, sure Oh, now an assertion that I’m “wrong”.
yeah, thanks. Thought that’s why you continue to be a parasite on the hide by being a black and white asshole Patient appears to hear voices and talks to himself. Recommend 5ml chloral hydrate for sedation.
We are witnessing the complete mental break down of a psychologist in real time. This is amazing.
Where’s Flips when you need him? smdh
Invalidation at its best. Thanks for the example
Your version of meltdown is leadership. Leaders dont take shit from invalidating bullshit. Snipers Hide people who have been invalidated by bullies like you now have an example how to handle you bullies. Tell them to fuck off! Bryan, maybe put the phone/laptop down before you, you know, actually get fired.
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Like, at least don’t use your real name. C’mon man. Protect yourself a little.
Are you threatening my livelihood? Wow! Who the fuck are you telling me I’m going to get fired!? Unbelievable trying to steady me by threatening my livelihood. This is absolutely the lowest forum I’ve ever experienced. Once again, fuck you bullies trying to cancel my support of my children. You’re the lowest of the low without a doubt
What a idiotic thread this turned into.
I run a Labradar....eh, in the spring I'll give it to my younger cousin and get a Garmin.
But, I have a lot of chrono data from the LR and I download it into Excel. I keep each session in its own column but also aggregate it into a single data set. For ELD-M on one rifle, I have just a bit over 100 data points.
If I run STDEV.S and STDEV.P on this aggregate, the difference is about .15. Just did it. Who gives a fuck.
Although I read posts where STDEV.S was recommended, I use STDEV.P as this data set IS the entire population. I'm not trying to make it a sample for prediction purposes. I want to know WTF the standard deviation was on the set of cartridges I fired. The future can take care of itself.
And, though I def would far prefer a real high degree of accuracy, I have some sympathy with the view that absolute accuracy of the standard deviation calculation is not absolutely and entirely critical except for pissing up the tree highest contests with other reloaders. Depends on what you are going to do with it, right?
To me, its sort of like case comparators...yeah, I'd like accuracy to the third decimal place but I'm not losing sleep over it. If I have been getting an SD of 14, and I introduce a new process in my reloading (or new equipment, whatever), and I see the SD go down to 8, then I think I'm on to something. If it doesn't, then I think I wasted some time and money.
Just my always uninformed and ignorant view of things.
I run a Labradar....eh, in the spring I'll give it to my younger cousin and get a Garmin.
But, I have a lot of chrono data from the LR and I download it into Excel. I keep each session in its own column but also aggregate it into a single data set. For ELD-M on one rifle, I have just a bit over 100 data points.
If I run STDEV.S and STDEV.P on this aggregate, the difference is about .15. Just did it. Who gives a fuck.
Although I read posts where STDEV.S was recommended, I use STDEV.P as this data set IS the entire population. I'm not trying to make it a sample for prediction purposes. I want to know WTF the standard deviation was on the set of cartridges I fired. The future can take care of itself.
And, though I def would far prefer a real high degree of accuracy, I have some sympathy with the view that absolute accuracy of the standard deviation calculation is not absolutely and entirely critical except for pissing up the tree highest contests with other reloaders. Depends on what you are going to do with it, right?
To me, its sort of like case comparators...yeah, I'd like accuracy to the third decimal place but I'm not losing sleep over it. If I have been getting an SD of 14, and I introduce a new process in my reloading (or new equipment, whatever), and I see the SD go down to 8, then I think I'm on to something. If it doesn't, then I think I wasted some time and money.
Just my always uninformed and ignorant view of things.
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Trying to help you. I don’t know you.
